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[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish living longer than the Alienage elves is what contradicts what Kirby stated.

You're most likely confusing life expectancy with life span.

The Dalish & CE lifespans are similar, but the CE life expectancy is much, much lower.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish living longer than the Alienage elves is what contradicts what Kirby stated.

Except for the fact that she explicitly says they don't. And there's no in-game indication that Dalish elves actually live long, beyond their own propaganda. 

We have one thing in-game that goes against her statement, and that's the claim by Master Ilen about the age of his father. That's it.

Modifié par In Exile, 12 mai 2013 - 07:00 .

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...




The Dalish living longer than the Alienage elves is what contradicts what Kirby stated.

While I don't care much about the topic either way (though with in-game info I'd say that the dalish at least could improve their lifespan, regardless if they could reach immortality or not), in the case Bioware decides that they want to make the players discover that the elves were never immortal, and that dalish never had longer lifespan than humans, they could do it. It'd might be a retcon (it would mean that the dalish and expecially Ilen were lying), but they could do it.

[The Hierophant]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Zathrian & Marethari are the only confirmed Dalish that are over 100 years old. Those two don't equal the whole of the Dalish.

Well, apparently Ilen said his father fought the Clayne tribes after the fall of the Dales... 600 years ago as I understand it.  That sounds like a writing oversight to me but some people disagree.

I think it might be an intentional Tall Tale from Ilen. 

[The Elder King]

StreetMagic wrote...

Well, Master Ilen says Dalish craftmanship is unrivaled, even though he sells mostly typical equipment. If can't trust him to make me a superior sword, how can I trust him to talk about mystical lifespans? Hmm?

Much different than Master Wade and the Dryden blacksmith. They could back it up.

That's a fault of the merchant system. I mean, I'd expect a dalish merchant to sell mostly elven goods, and at a rather high price to humans.
Regardless, I'm not considering the fault of the game's system in account of what Ilen said.
Plus, you're comparing merchants from different games.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 mai 2013 - 07:09 .

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish living longer than the Alienage elves is what contradicts what Kirby stated.

You're most likely confusing life expectancy with life span.

The Dalish & CE lifespans are similar, but the CE life expectancy is much, much lower. 

Gaider mentioned some Dalish lived extraordinarily long lives, and said the Dalish seemed to live longer the more generations they lived away from humans:

David Gaider: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 mai 2013 - 07:16 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Zathrian & Marethari are the only confirmed Dalish that are over 100 years old. Those two don't equal the whole of the Dalish.

Well, apparently Ilen said his father fought the Clayne tribes after the fall of the Dales... 600 years ago as I understand it.  That sounds like a writing oversight to me but some people disagree.

Does he specifically mention having met this "father?" When I was a kid, I had to memorize an old American folk song that uses "fathers" to mean "male ancestors..."

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Gaider mentioned some Dalish lived extraordinarily long lives, and said the Dalish seemed to live longer the more generations they lived away from humans

And Mary Kirby spilled the beans and made it clear that elves aren't immortal and that there was no immortality to reclaim:

Mary Kirby wrote...

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

I'm waiting to hear why we should cherry pick the DG quote and ignore MK's quote. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 mai 2013 - 07:25 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish living longer than the Alienage elves is what contradicts what Kirby stated.

Except for the fact that she explicitly says they don't.

While Gaider said the Alienage elves live ordinary lives while the Dalish seem to live longer (with some being extraordinary), which is affirmed by characters in Origins who mention the longevity of the Dalish.

In Exile wrote...

And there's no in-game indication that Dalish elves actually live long, beyond their own propaganda.

I don't think Ilen is spreading propaganda by addressing the longevity of his father.

In Exile wrote...

We have one thing in-game that goes against her statement, and that's the claim by Master Ilen about the age of his father. That's it. 

Along with Gaider's statement and the comments of the Dalish characters who address this. Why should we ignore all of this for one single post?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 mai 2013 - 07:28 .

[In Exile]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Does he specifically mention having met this "father?" When I was a kid, I had to memorize an old American folk song that uses "fathers" to mean "male ancestors..."

Not directly addressed to you, Riverdales, but I've heard this used so often I'm going to track down the quote. When does Ilen say this? 

The people who mention it have a tendency to be incredibly dishonest about the context in which it is said and play fast and loose with the meaning of words, so I'm very skeptical.

[Xilizhra]

I just don't understand how you can be quite skeptical and pragmatic about that, and then turn around and use the same evidence to further a theory just because you happen to like it and it aligns with your sympathies.

I have no specific hypotheses that I focus on as the one true answer. However, it's something worth pursuing. If the elves can regain immortality, the implications are tremendous, and well-deserved for them in any case; what right is more fundamental than that to life?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
While Gaider said the Alienage elves live ordinary lives while the Dalish seem to live longer (with some being extraordinary), which is affirmed by characters in Origins who mention the longevity of the Dalish.

The only characters in DA:O who say this are the Dalish, and one of the things give you as proof is Zathrian, who didn't relciam anything other than using a blood magic curse. So to say that they are unreliable and  untrustworthy narattors as to the state of the lore is understanding just how not authoritative their evidence is. 

It's like using Mother Petrice as an authority for Chantry dogma, or saying that Chantry dogma is true because lots of people in Thedas believe it. 

It's realy funny to see the intellectually dishonest lengths that you'll push hearsay to when it feeds into an argument you like. 

I don't think Ilen is spreading propaganda by addressing the longevity of his father.

Given that it's you who says he's saying this, and given how often you've outright made things up or otherwise twisted what characters say in-game, I just plain don't believe you at this point.

When did you get this dialogue? I'm going to fire up DA2 and provide a transcript of the conversation. 

Along with Gaider's statement and the comments of the Dalish characters who address this. Why should we ignore all of this for one single post?

All of the characters, in-game, are biased narattors. We have a whole chant of light and every single chantry priest who says the mages are responsible for the darkspawn, but that doesn't make it anything other than a bunch of horsecrap. 

So the fact that characters in-game, who have an interest in believing a myth and who have no direct evidence of it, say that it's true, means nothing.

And otherwise we have one ambiguous interview comment by DG, which perfectly contradicts what MK says. So, basically, we can can charitable and say that MK and DG contradict making it a wash as to who is actually right.

To actually resolve the contradiction we need some evidence in-game, and we have none. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 mai 2013 - 07:37 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
I have no specific hypotheses that I focus on as the one true answer.

That's just false. Every single one of your posts leaves from the assumption that the elves were immortal, or that otherwise any worth to their claim of immortality beyond actual myth. 

All of the specific "hypotheses" that you advance are varying explanations that flow from the assumption that the elves are immortal. At minimum, you assume that it's something special about the elves instead of (for example) some special, complicated spell or ritual. 

Your position is the opposite of agnosticism. 

However, it's something worth pursuing. If the elves can regain immortality, the implications are tremendous, and well-deserved for them in any case; what right is more fundamental than that to life?

See? I mean, you're already leaving from the assumption that the elves were immortal at one point just to make this statement. Moreover, even if the elves were immortal at some point, that doesn't mean that it can be reclaimed, or that it wasn't (for example) just some widescale blood magic ritual that they used that involved the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of slaves, and that any species with the knowledge can recreate.

[Heimdall]

In Exile wrote...

I don't think Ilen is spreading propaganda by addressing the longevity of his father.

Given that it's you who says he's saying this, and given how often you've outright made things up or otherwise twisted what characters say in-game, I just plain don't believe you at this point.

When did you get this dialogue? I'm going to fire up DA2 and provide a transcript of the conversation.

I believe its from the Dalish Origin in DA:O actually.  He gives the PC his father's bow I think.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Gaider said the Alienage elves live ordinary lives while the Dalish seem to live longer (with some being extraordinary), which is affirmed by characters in Origins who mention the longevity of the Dalish.

The only characters in DA:O who say this are the Dalish, and one of the things give you as proof is Zathrian, who didn't relciam anything other than using a blood magic curse. So to say that they are unreliable and  untrustworthy narattors as to the state of the lore is understanding just how not authoritative their evidence is.

It's like using Mother Petrice as an authority for Chantry dogma, or saying that Chantry dogma is true because lots of people in Thedas believe it.

It's realy funny to see the intellectually dishonest lengths that you'll push hearsay to when it feeds into an argument you like.

I don't see how it's "intellectually dishonest" to address Gaider's comments and the dialogue from the Dalish, but since you dislike the Dalish, I suppose it's a moot point.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think Ilen is spreading propaganda by addressing the longevity of his father.

Given that it's you who says he's saying this, and given how often you've outright made things up or otherwise twisted what characters say in-game, I just plain don't believe you at this point.

When did you get this dialogue? I'm going to fire up DA2 and provide a transcript of the conversation.  

I dislike how you turn our disagreements personal and slander me. You don't have the right to call me a liar simply because I refuse to agree with your opinions.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Along with Gaider's statement and the comments of the Dalish characters who address this. Why should we ignore all of this for one single post?

All of the characters, in-game, are biased narattors. We have a whole chant of light and every single chantry priest who says the mages are responsible for the darkspawn, but that doesn't make it a bunch of horsecrap.

So the fact that characters in-game, who have an interest in believing a myth and who have no direct evidence of it, say that it's true, means nothing.

And otherwise we have one ambiguous interview comment by DG, which perfectly contradicts what MK says. So, basically, we can can charitable and say that MK and DG contradict making it a wash as to who is actually right.

To actually resolve the contradiction we need some evidence in-game, and we have none. 

I don't see anything ambiguous about Gaider saying there's a difference between the longevity of the Dalish, and the ordinary lives of the Alienage elves who don't live extraordinary lives.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 mai 2013 - 07:55 .

[Xilizhra]

That's just false. Every single one of your posts leaves from the assumption that the elves were immortal, or that otherwise any worth to their claim of immortality beyond actual myth.

Oh, I'm quite willing to investigate the claims of the Chantry by piercing the Black City too, if I ever get the capability and am somehow able to protect myself from its taint. And I was equally willing to chase down the mythical Andraste's Ashes.

See? I mean, you're already leaving from the assumption that the elves were immortal at one point just to make this statement. Moreover, even if the elves were immortal at some point, that doesn't mean that it can be reclaimed, or that it wasn't (for example) just some widescale blood magic ritual that they used that involved the sacrifice of hundreds of thousands of slaves, and that any species with the knowledge can recreate.

Perhaps not. But we should learn whether or not this is true, and not just give up.

When did you get this dialogue? I'm going to fire up DA2 and provide a transcript of the conversation.

This will get you nowhere, as he says it in DAO.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 mai 2013 - 07:57 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps not. But we should learn whether or not this is true, and not just give up.

That assumes Bioware is willing to reveal it. What we're saying with all this is that they haven't, rather than that they haven't yet.

Xilizhra wrote...

That's just false. Every single one of your posts leaves from the assumption that the elves were immortal, or that otherwise any worth to their claim of immortality beyond actual myth.

Oh, I'm quite willing to investigate the claims of the Chantry by piercing the Black City too, if I ever get the capability and am somehow able to protect myself from its taint. And I was equally willing to chase down the mythical Andraste's Ashes.

And even when you did, it was still ambigous if they got their power from the Maker, or from the huge vein of lyrium nearby. Bioware seems to like us leaving us wondering.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 mai 2013 - 08:00 .

[LobselVith8]

StreetMagic wrote...

It's almost sad... but amusing... to watch people rationalize their concept of immortal/preternatural Galadriel like elves, when the reality is that none of them are any better than Zevran.

I don't see what's sad about people being open to the possibility that the elven lore could be true. Everyone has their own opinion about Dragon Age and the lore. The games even invite us to form our own opinions on these matters. As long as we don't take it too personally, I don't think it's an issue.

[Xilizhra]

And even when you did, it was still ambigous if they got their power from the Maker, or from the huge vein of lyrium nearby. Bioware seems to like us leaving us wondering.

Yes, they're jerks like that. I want to know these things.

[In Exile]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I believe its from the Dalish Origin in DA:O actually.  He gives the PC his father's bow I think.

I'll fire up DA:O and check! Thanks!  

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see how it's "intellectually dishonest" to address Gaider's comments and the dialogue from the Dalish, but since you dislike the Dalish, I suppose it's a moot point.

It's intellectually dishonest to use the same standard of evidence to support a point you like when you dismiss that same standard of evidence to decry a point you dislike. Beyond that, it's intellectual dishonest to use the preponderance of belief in a particular thing as truth of that when that belief exists only because of faith, not evidence. Moreover, it's intellectually dishonest to insist that one quote is divine truth and that another quote should be dismissed out of hand, when there's no justified reason to distinguish between them. 


I don't actually dislike the Dalish, moreover, though I do dislike those who happen to be Dalish and racist. But that stems from my general dislike of racism. I also really don't like it when people endorse and promote even fictional racism, or otherwise condone it (or promote and gleefully condone crimes against humanity) which is where you and I run into problems. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
I dislike how you turn our disagreements personal and slander me. You don't have the right to call me a liar simply because I refuse to agree with your opinions.

No, I have a right to call you a liar when you lie. Do I need to quote the number of times you've posted on this forum that Decimus believes Hawke is a templar after I posted youtube evidence that this is false? Do I need to quote the number of times you've tried to say that Hawke is forced to be an Andrastian, based on your choice to pick a line that explictly endorses the belief in an afterlife? 

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see anything ambiguous about Gaider saying there's a difference between the longevity of the Dalish, and the ordinary lives of the Alienage elves who don't live extraordinary lives.

DG says: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans". 

The then says: "Dalish tend to live longer."

That the Dalish live longer is not proof that the Dalish have longer lifespans. A lifespan is the biological "cap" on age. The Japanse live longer than the Romanians, but it's not right to say that the Japanese have a longer lifespan, in the same way that it's right to say that humans have a longer lifespan than flies. 

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
When did you get this dialogue? I'm going to fire up DA2 and provide a transcript of the conversation. 

DAO, Dalish Origin.