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[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

While Exile condemns them as racist for wanting their own kingdom and having a history that links the loss of their immortality to human contact.

You don't think there is something racist with wanting a state where only your race is allowed entry and believing that
your race used to have a superior lifespan until contact with that other race with their inferior lifespans shortened your own?
Really? I mean, really? 

The elves of the kingdom of the Dales kept out the Orlesian Empire, who sought to invade other kingdoms to expand their territory. I also don't think refusing to convert and kicking out the missionaries who won't take 'no' for an answer makes them villainous.

As for their immortality, if the humans did cause the ancient elves of Arlathan to lose their immortality, how does that make them racist?

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The elves of the kingdom of the Dales kept out the Orlesian Empire, who sought to invade other kingdoms to expand their territory. I also don't think refusing to convert and kicking out the missionaries who won't take 'no' for an answer makes them villainous.

As for their immortality, if the humans did cause the ancient elves of Arlathan to lose their immortality, how does that make them racist?

No, they kept out ALL humans based on the simple fact they were humans, regardless of affiliation or motives, which is racist. And kicking out missionaries is religious intolerance, BTW.

There is no evidence whatsoever that is the case and to believe in it without evidence is racism.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 mai 2013 - 09:55 .

[TEWR]

MIsterJB wrote...

And kicking out missionaries is religious intolerance, BTW.

Hey, the Chantry wasn't particularly other-religion friendly during this time either, thinking that they needed to convert the non-believers to "save them". Drakon himself wanted the Orlesian Empire and Chantry boundaries to be synonymous and have the entire continent worship Andrastianism.

I dislike this sense that people must be allowed to preach their own religion to other people who believe differently. It leads to a loss of cultural identity.

No, they kept out ALL humans based on the simple fact they were humans, regardless of affiliation or motives, which is racist

It's possible that while humans were kept out of the Dales, they weren't barred from conducting business at the border with the Emerald Guards and maybe a few traders/diplomats.

Ya never know.

There is no evidence whatsoever that is the case and to believe in it without evidence is racism.

That's dodging the question though.

The question is, "If it's true, how is it racism? Is it racism, truly?" which asks you to labor under the possibility that it might've been true for the sake of discussion.

So, if it was true, is it truly racist?

Would it still be racist if an Elf said "I just want our people to be like they were again, way back in Arlathan's time" without saying "Humans are a blight upon our people!"? It's not really saying or even implying humans are inferior if one said something like that, but just that they want what was once true to be true again.

Again, laboring under the assumption Elves were naturally immortal.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Would it still be racist if an Elf said "I just want our people to be like they were again, way back in Arlathan's time" without saying "Humans are a blight upon our people!"? It's not really saying or even implying humans are inferior if one said something like that, but just that they want what was once true to be true again.

Again, laboring under the assumption Elves were naturally immortal.

But the bold statement is what makes it racist - the belief that there was a time when elves were a superior race. Immortal mages, every single one, who lost their status by interacting with humans, who coincidentally happend to be (just about) violent savages. 

You can't separate the underlined statements. The core assumption of the quickening is that humans caused it. 

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Hey, the Chantry wasn't particularly other-religion friendly during this time either, thinking that they needed to convert the non-believers to "save them". Drakon himself wanted the Orlesian Empire and Chantry boundaries to be synonymous and have the entire continent worship Andrastianism.

I dislike this sense that people must be allowed to preach their own religion to other people who believe differently. It leads to a loss of cultural identity.

Preaching does not, by itself, lead to a loss of cultural identity. If enough people convert, then it can lead to such but the two are not synonimous. And it's not as if cultures are static in time or models of perfection.
To not be forcibly converted is a freedom and a right. But so is preaching your beliefs peacefully.

It's possible that while humans were kept out of the Dales, they weren't barred from conducting business at the border with the Emerald Guards and maybe a few traders/diplomats.

Ya never know.

We do know. Sister Petrine claims they rebuked all efforts at trade or civilized discourse which is consistent with elven isolationism based upon the belief humans are plague bearers.

That's dodging the question though.

The question is, "If it's true, how is it racism? Is it racism, truly?" which asks you to labor under the possibility that it might've been true for the sake of discussion.

So, if it was true, is it truly racist?

Would it still be racist if an Elf said "I just want our people to be like they were again, way back in Arlathan's time" without saying "Humans are a blight upon our people!"? It's not really saying or even implying humans are inferior if one said something like that, but just that they want what was once true to be true again.

Again, laboring under the assumption Elves were naturally immortal.

The question began as to whether this elven belief is racist.And it is because there is no evidence of it being true thereby making the belief in it racist.
Asking "what if it was true" is actually dodging the question but I will answer. If it was true, then it wouldn't be racism. The manner in which they would choose to make their "people back like it was before" could be racist, however. For instance, if by "before", the elf means "the only sentient race on the surface of Thedas.".
And if their justification for it were true; their god is punishing them for getting close to humans and forgetting what it is to be elven; then it would be incredibly racist.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Fortunately, 3 seems to be the only one consistent with the Quickening as the elves have described it. 1 is very obviously not true, unless the period between humans evolving and gaining oceangoing ships was so tiny that the elves didn't notice their immortality loss in the interim.

We don't have any account of what happening, even if we assume the quickening is true. The elves might have been immortal, and so time did not have the same meaning. "Moments" to the ancient elves could very well have meant millenia. It could be that as humans spread, after coming into being, they had the effect of slowly chipping away at the actual immortal lifespan of the lives. It could just not have been noticed. 

Moreover, the humans allegedly came to Thedas from elsewhere. So (2) is certainly plausible. 


The moral dillema, as I said, is the same: to what extent are the elves justified in using force to preserve their lifespan. We don't give people the right to violently retaliate for industrial actions that shorten our lives with force, for example. 

Let me put it like this: do you think that any humans who weren't raised by elves to begin with would join the Dalish?

Why do you focus on the Dalish again? I see where you're going, but again, why are the Dalish somehow the arbiters of what it means to be elven? 

Assimilate into their own society? Would the humans treat the elves as equals in general?

Why do you take assimilation to be the mark of acceptance? As I said before - in Thedas, humans are generally racist and xenophobic. Which is why I think the elves do need their own state. But there is a world of difference between supporting the emancipation of the elves, decrying the systemic discrimination of the Alienages, and believing in what is (currently) a racist and race supremacist account of the elves favoured by the Dalish. 

Ultimately, the elves, either race or culture, will not be treated as equal until either human society becomes enlightened enough to extend it, or until they have enough power to demand it. I can hardly blame them for pursuing the latter course.

I'd go farther and say the have to effectively take it. Our society didn't get to where it is by "extending" much of anything to anyone. Every disadvantaged group fought to be where it is. 

It would definitely be immoral if you didn't make special preparations to handle said genetic conditions beforehand. It would also be immoral if the condition was severe and probable enough.

Just as an FYI, the medical community has a quite developed framework for addressing any of these issues. I'm talking about the morality of actually having children this case. 

Not at all. Once they're here already, they of course have the same rights as anyone else. But why encourage the creation of more, given the plethora of unwanted children up for adoption?

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you suggesting parents wouldn't want children who have a disability, and would abandon them? I just don't get it.

[Xilizhra]

Why do you focus on the Dalish again? I see where you're going, but again, why are the Dalish somehow the arbiters of what it means to be elven?

City elves are, for the most part, human in culture. The extent of their uniqueness is a tree and a general communitarian ideal. There's little of note there that's distinguishable from human culture, and it really isn't an especially "elven" culture.

Why do you take assimilation to be the mark of acceptance? As I said before - in Thedas, humans are generally racist and xenophobic. Which is why I think the elves do need their own state. But there is a world of difference between supporting the emancipation of the elves, decrying the systemic discrimination of the Alienages, and believing in what is (currently) a racist and race supremacist account of the elves favoured by the Dalish.

Most of what you say about the Dalish seems to point to you wanting to replace their culture with the city elven one.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you suggesting parents wouldn't want children who have a disability, and would abandon them? I just don't get it.

No, I'm saying that it's safer to adopt if you're predisposed to debilitating genetic conditions.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
City elves are, for the most part, human in culture.

They consider themselves elves. They have a unique culture, in the alienage, that certainly isn't just Andrastian culture, for those who are Andrastian. I think it's incredibly entitled to dismiss their identity as "human".

More importantly, there isn't such a thing as "human" culture. Ferelden is nothing like Orlais, which is nothing like Antiva. 

The extent of their uniqueness is a tree and a general communitarian ideal. There's little of note there that's distinguishable from human culture, and it really isn't an especially "elven" culture.

The only reason you can even say that is because you've started from the POV that being like the Dalish means being elven. Which is the thing I'm saying is not justified. 

The Alienage itself creates a cultural core for the elves, as does their being part of the diaspora, their general historical treatment at the hands of the humans, and the bonds and ties that they've formed to be able to survive. All of this is culturally unique. 

It's nothing like Orlesian culture, which is nothing like Ferelden. 

Most of what you say about the Dalish seems to point to you wanting to replace their culture with the city elven one.

I don't want to replace their culture. It would be a loss for their way of life to dissapear, and that includes their having to settle down (if it came to that). But there's an incredible gulf between that and racism, which certainly isn't something I support continuing to exist anywhere in Thedas.

No, I'm saying that it's safer to adopt if you're predisposed to debilitating genetic conditions.

So you are actually implying that having a disability somehow means you're less morally valuable as a person, given that you're saying that rather than bringing someone about that to life, people should adopt. 

[Savber100]

All I want to say is that I HOPE that the villains in the game aren't so black and white...

[Xilizhra]

They consider themselves elves. They have a unique culture, in the alienage, that certainly isn't just Andrastian culture, for those who are Andrastian. I think it's incredibly entitled to dismiss their identity as "human".

They're certainly Andrastian themselves; all religious aspects of the original elven culture have been stripped out. As has almost the entirety of their language, standard philosophies and ways of life, etc. There's really very little left.

More importantly, there isn't such a thing as "human" culture. Ferelden is nothing like Orlais, which is nothing like Antiva.

There are more similarities than differences between them.

The Alienage itself creates a cultural core for the elves, as does their being part of the diaspora, their general historical treatment at the hands of the humans, and the bonds and ties that they've formed to be able to survive. All of this is culturally unique.

Almost all that's unique is negative, and not something they particularly want.

So you are actually implying that having a disability somehow means you're less morally valuable as a person, given that you're saying that rather than bringing someone about that to life, people should adopt.

Actually, I don't believe it's inherently good to have children at all. Preserving and raising them well is, but to have a child you know will be at risk is to do them harm.

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

They're certainly Andrastian themselves; all religious aspects of the original elven culture have been stripped out. As has almost the entirety of their language, standard philosophies and ways of life, etc. There's really very little left..

That's happened to the Dalish too. Ariane doesn't know much more than Finn about the ancient Elves. Velanna complains that her history is lost, and the Warden encourages her to make new history. Marethari is so cautious about unknowns she doesn't give Merrill any room to explore (and Merrill just as confused that she ends up putting her clan in danger). All of them are lost a bit.

All are lost somewhat, but the city elves far moreso.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
They're certainly Andrastian themselves; all religious aspects of the original elven culture have been stripped out.

But that doesn't mean that the elves wouldn't have developed their own flavour of Andrastianism, by (for example) adopting more inclusive beliefs.

As has almost the entirety of their language

The Dalish don't have that either, and yet it doesn't make their culture somehow un-elven. 

standard philosophies and ways of life, etc.

The shtetel is very much a way of life. And as we see from Valendrian, the elves very clearly have their own philosophy that's quite distinct and unique from what we see regarding other humans.

There are more similarities than differences between them.

What? Care to back that up?

Xilizhra wrote...
All are lost somewhat, but the city elves far moreso.

Only if what matters is how close the culture tracks the Dales. Which, frankly, is very problematic. 

Almost all that's unique is negative, and not something they particularly want.

I'm honestly offended by this. Speaking as someone whose family hails from actual shtetels.

Actually, I don't believe it's inherently good to have children at all. Preserving and raising them well is, but to have a child you know will be at risk is to do them harm.

I'm not saying it's inherently good to have children. But there's a difference between that and saying it's bad to have children who might have a disability.

Modifié par In Exile, 12 mai 2013 - 11:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

While I doubt humans would want to lvie in the Dales, it should still be an open option for them. Just like the Elves should have the option to not live in the alienages. Ideally anyway.

[Xilizhra]

But that doesn't mean that the elves wouldn't have developed their own flavour of Andrastianism, by (for example) adopting more inclusive beliefs.

Are there any signs of that?

The Dalish don't have that either, and yet it doesn't make their culture somehow un-elven.

Since you're explicitly refusing to define elven culture as anything racial, what do you think makes it?

The shtetel is very much a way of life. And as we see from Valendrian, the elves very clearly have their own philosophy that's quite distinct and unique from what we see regarding other humans.

Elaborate on this shtetel?

What? Care to back that up?

All except Tevinter and arguably Rivain follow the same religion and thus the same magical policies, all are human-dominant, all are royalist in some fashion or another, all possess a multitude of institutional social inequalities, etc.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

If the elves were immortal, then where are the ones who went to Uthenera? No Tevinter writing ever mentioned the Imperium having to deal with really old elves rising from their tombs.

To be fair, the First Blight destroyed much of Tevinter's records.

Also, Uthenara is, according to the Elves, something that most of the elders would never wake from. Some would, but most would die in truth.

Are we supposed to believe they didn't notice their race was being enslaved; despite supposedly traveling in the Fade with the children of a Goddess and actually being able to return to their bodies; or that they are still slumbering ala Antediluvian, except without the near omnipotence?

The Dalish stories regarding the gods say that before Arlathan fell, the gods were locked away and thus incapable of helping the Elves.

So the Elves in Uthenara would've had no idea what was going on.

Unless, of course, Uthenera was just a normal burial and sleeping forever, weary of life, is just symbolism for "dead as f*ck."

Well, we do see the spirits of two Elves in the Brecilian Forest, both of whom are cognizant of their surroundings and the Warden.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

They consider themselves elves. They have a unique culture, in the alienage, that certainly isn't just Andrastian culture, for those who are Andrastian. I think it's incredibly entitled to dismiss their identity as "human".

They're certainly Andrastian themselves; all religious aspects of the original elven culture have been stripped out. As has almost the entirety of their language, standard philosophies and ways of life, etc. There's really very little left.

They are confirmedly Andrastian, yes. That is the condition on which the Chantry allowed the Alienage system to form in the first place, (assuming both were not forced, and it would not surprise me if the Chantry forced it and then pretended it was a voluntary thing) and the CE's wedding is performed by a priest of Andraste.

That is not the same as them not having their own culture. They created one based around togetherness, unity, and finding what joy they can. They also seem to have kept the word "shem," and each Alienage planted a tree to remind them of what they'd lost. (Though a lot of Alienages have since used theirs for firewood, iirc.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 mai 2013 - 12:04 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
To be fair, the First Blight destroyed much of Tevinter's records.

Miranthous was never destroyed and that is where the most important records would be.

Also, Uthenara is, according to the Elves, something that most of the elders would never wake from. Some would, but most would die in truth.

Convenient.

The Dalish stories regarding the gods say that before Arlathan fell, the gods were locked away and thus incapable of helping the Elves.

So the Elves in Uthenara would've had no idea what was going on.

I doubt absolutely no repercussions of such a large war would reach the Fade. The simple presence of a different lifeform in the Fade, humans, would tell them something had changed.

Well, we do see the spirits of two Elves in the Brecilian Forest, both of whom are cognizant of their surroundings and the Warden.

So? They're ghosts. There are human and elven ghosts in the denerim orphanage and dwarven ghosts in the Dead Trenches. It's hardly unique.
One of those spirits was that of a child, BTW. Definitively not the type to go to Uthenera, even if we assume it existed.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 mai 2013 - 12:36 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I pointed out the Chantry fable wasn't indisputable proof. That's it. [/quote]

No, that would be you being intellectually dishonest again. [/quote]

Actually, it wouldn't, since the fable of the corruption of the Golden City teaches the moral lesson about one of the sins of humanity.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Let's define the world Fable:

fa·ble  [fey-buhl]  Show IPA noun, verb, fa·bled, fa·bling.noun1.a short tale to teach a moral lesson, often with animals or inanimate objects as characters;apologue: the fable of the tortoise and the hare; Aesop's fables.2.a story not founded on fact: This biography is largely a self-laudatory fable.3.a story about supernatural or extraordinary persons or incidents; legend: the fables of gods and heroes.4.legends or myths collectively: the heroes of Greek fable.5.an untruth; falsehood: This boast of a cure is a medical fable.
You're obviously using the word to mean either 2 or 5, which are both positive claims that something is false, not a neutral claim that something isn't support by evidence. [/quote]

Actually, I pointed out earlier in the thread that it's a fable because it's a moral lesson from the Chantry.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, one quote is supported by two games, while the other isn't. Since you seem to hate the elves, I don't expect this discussion to go anywhere. [/quote]

There's no evidence in the games for it. This is what makes your argument so intellectually bankrupt. [/quote]

Except for the dialogue from the characters that addresses this is the case, so the idea that the Dalish only live as long as the Alienage elves doesn't seem to be accurate, since it isn't supported by the narrative.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't racist for the Dalish to want to regain their immortality, or have their own kingdom. [/quote]

It's racist to use an unsubstantiated belief into immortality to create a racially segregated state and to forcefully expel people of a particular racial background out of your borders, as a matter of state policy, becuase of it. [/quote]

The Chantry uses the unsubstantiated belief of the fall of the Golden City to vilify mages and magic. You don't seem to take issue with that, however.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

It's also racist to believe you're inherently superior to other groups of people for that reason, and to want to use your racially segregated state to build a race of all-mage immortals. [/quote]

It isn't racist for the elves to believe they were once immortal, especially if that was actually the case. And I find it hypocritical that the same people who endorse the Chantry controlled Circles (where mages are subjugated and segregated from the rest of society) vilify the elves for once trying to regain their immortality in the kingdom of the Dales.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

First, the evidence isn't false, since Grace retorts that Hawke and his companions aren't templars. [/quote]

And then what does Decimus say again? Ah, that's right - "what do I care what shield they carry?". Nope, you're still a liar. [/quote]

The fact that Grace has to point out that they aren't templars proves how factually inaccurate your statement is, especially since that line of dialogue doesn't disprove that Decimus thinks they are templars.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Second, Hawke isn't given the option to express another point of view, as he's limited to a religiously Andrastian point of view. He can't express an atheist point of view, like The Warden could. [/quote]

That doesn't mean you're forced to be an Andrastian. That means you're forced not to express an atheist view. [/quote]

Since Gaider didn't even remember that there were lines to express an atheist point of view in Origins and Awakening, I don't see how you can seriously make that claim. You're not given the option to express an alternative point of view in the dialogue with Merrill and Sebastian, and Hawke even tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him. I'm not given the choice to express an alternative point of view.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

He also pointed out they seemed to live longer the more generations they lived away from humanity, so some of us are open to the possibility of there being some merit to the elven lore. [/quote]

And MK dismisses that. But you're still cherry picking statements, being intellectually dishonest. [/quote]

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves.

Actually it doesn't as the only credible examples we have seen ingame of Dalish with long lifespans are Marethari, and Zathrian. Using those two to state that the Dalish have longer lifespans (think population average) is reaching as we have no codex entries to verify it, only a dev statement from a skype interview. Information changes over time like the lore surrounding the Inquisition. DG's statement isn't the end all be all as it's unsupported outside Marethari and Zathrian.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 13 mai 2013 - 01:47 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, it wouldn't, since the fable of the corruption of the Golden City teaches the moral lesson about one of the sins of humanity.

Too bad that doesn't fit the tenor of your posts on the subject, and the insistence that the correct account of history is otherwise. Just because a definition happens to fit, doesn't mean it's the definition you were arguing for. 

Except for the dialogue from the characters that addresses this is the case, so the idea that the Dalish only live as long as the Alienage elves doesn't seem to be accurate, since it isn't supported by the narrative.

Again: the only characters that posit its truth are Dalish elves. It's like using Genetivi and Leliana's belief as evidence that the ashes are literally the ashes of Andraste and proof of her divinity, i.e.,, you are intellectually bankrupt.

The Chantry uses the unsubstantiated belief of the fall of the Golden City to vilify mages and magic. You don't seem to take issue with that, however.

What!? I'm pro-mage. I constantly take issue with that. Just because I find your views abohrent doesn't mean I'm not consistent in my own. 

It isn't racist for the elves to believe they were once immortal, especially if that was actually the case.  

It's racist for the Dalish to believe they were immortal based on the evidence they have, i.e., none. It's furthermore racist to use that belief, without any evidence, as the basis for racial segregation and a breeding program geared toward breeding an all mage immortal race, i.e., a state policy of racial supremacy.

And I find it hypocritical that the same people who endorse the Chantry controlled Circles (where mages are subjugated and segregated from the rest of society) vilify the elves for once trying to regain their immortality in the kingdom of the Dales.

That's because you're apparently illiterate, since I don't support the Circles and haven't spoken in support for them. That I think Anders is as bad as Meredith doesn't mean I disagree with mages being free. 

The fact that Grace has to point out that they aren't templars proves how factually inaccurate your statement is, especially since that line of dialogue doesn't disprove that Decimus thinks they are templars.

No, the line of dialogue that proves that Decimus doesn't care they are templars is his subsequent line, that he doesn't care what shield they carry. But keep being intellectually bankrupt.

Since Gaider didn't even remember that there were lines to express an atheist point of view in Origins and Awakening, I don't see how you can seriously make that claim.

Only in your world is this evidence or something or relevant to the conversation.

You're not given the option to express an alternative point of view in the dialogue with Merrill and Sebastian, and Hawke even tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him. I'm not given the choice to express an alternative point of view.

You're right. You can't dismiss Merrill and tell her she's wrong to believe in an afterlife, but I would wager you would still complain about that statement as being mean to Merrill.

But it doesn't matter, because you're still wrong. Being unable to affirmatively say that you're an atheist isn't the same thing as being positively forced to make an Andrastian statement, which is what you argued actually happens. Except it doesn't. 

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves.

No, it doesn't. Only in the evidence-free world that you apparently live in is this true, because there is no in-game evidence for it other than the timeline issues that arise from Master Illen's statement (and I love how this is clearly an intentional feature by the writers instead of bad writing, while the character's behaviour in the DA2 fade is bad writing, or Decimus and Grace being loons is bad writing). 

Otherwise, I don't ignore DG's statement. Not being intellectually bankrupt, I recognize that it's directly contradicted by MK's much more recent statement, and that there's no in-game evidence to distinguish between the two.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 mai 2013 - 01:36 .