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[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves.

Actually it doesn't as the only credible examples we have seen ingame of Dalish with long lifespans are Marethari, and Zathrian. Using those two to state that the Dalish have longer lifespans (think population average) is reaching as we have no codex entries to verify it, only a dev statement from a skype interview. Information changes over time like the lore surrounding the Inquisition. DG's statement isn't the end all be all as it's unsupported outside Marethari and Zathrian.

Master Ilen talks about his dad, who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Dales fell. And that was 3 centuries before Calenhad was born, 7 before the Dragon Age itself.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves.

Actually it doesn't as the only credible examples we have seen ingame of Dalish with long lifespans are Marethari, and Zathrian. Using those two to state that the Dalish have longer lifespans (think population average) is reaching as we have no codex entries to verify it, only a dev statement from a skype interview. Information changes over time like the lore surrounding the Inquisition. DG's statement isn't the end all be all as it's unsupported outside Marethari and Zathrian.

Master Ilen talks about his dad, who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Dales fell. And that was 3 centuries before Calenhad was born, 7 before the Dragon Age itself.

Because the Dalish don't lie and cover up truths right?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Of course they don't. They are Dalish, and Dalish never lie or are mistaken.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves.

Actually it doesn't as the only credible examples we have seen ingame of Dalish with long lifespans are Marethari, and Zathrian. Using those two to state that the Dalish have longer lifespans (think population average) is reaching as we have no codex entries to verify it, only a dev statement from a skype interview. Information changes over time like the lore surrounding the Inquisition. DG's statement isn't the end all be all as it's unsupported outside Marethari and Zathrian.

Master Ilen talks about his dad, who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Dales fell. And that was 3 centuries before Calenhad was born, 7 before the Dragon Age itself.

Tbh, similar to the Chantry clergy spewing the CoL, i'm skeptical of Ilen's claim as there's nothing to prove it. Accepting his claim at face value with no proof to corroborate it just doesn't sit well for me. 

[TEWR]

I think saying a person is lying/is wrong about how long their father lived is kinda... well... stretching things. It's his father. If they were going to lie about anyone's lifespan, I would think Mahariel's father -- a very respected Keeper prior to Marethari -- would be the one to lie about.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2013 - 02:18 .

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think saying a person is lying about how long their father lived is kinda... well... absurd. It's his father.

Not only that but in a close knit community with strong family ties, it's not the sort of lie that is sustainable for any period of time.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Yeah I agree. Eventually someone'd let it slip in a seemingly private conversation and then the kids would hear it, they'd question it, and the lie is revealed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2013 - 02:19 .

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think saying a person is lying/is wrong about how long their father lived is kinda... well... stretching things. It's his father. If they were going to lie about anyone's lifespan, I would think Mahariel's father -- a very respected Keeper prior to Marethari -- would be the one to lie about.

Not really. As long as people take it at face value and don't question it and ask for proof, it does it's purpose. :innocent:

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, it wouldn't, since the fable of the corruption of the Golden City teaches the moral lesson about one of the sins of humanity. [/quote]

Too bad that doesn't fit the tenor of your posts on the subject, and the insistence that the correct account of history is otherwise. Just because a definition happens to fit, doesn't mean it's the definition you were arguing for. [/quote]

I pointed out it wasn't indisputable fact. That was it. I don't understand why I have to keep repeating myself on the matter. It's getting a bit silly at this point.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except for the dialogue from the characters that addresses this is the case, so the idea that the Dalish only live as long as the Alienage elves doesn't seem to be accurate, since it isn't supported by the narrative. [/quote]

Again: the only characters that posit its truth are Dalish elves. It's like using Genetivi and Leliana's belief as evidence that the ashes are literally the ashes of Andraste and proof of her divinity, i.e.,, you are intellectually bankrupt. [/quote]

That's not the same thing. If the Dalish notice that some elves are living longer than others, then the point is that some members of the People notice that some elves have remarkable longevity. That's it. It's different than Leliana and Genitivi jumping to a religious conclusion about the ashes simply because they are religiously Andrastian.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't racist for the elves to believe they were once immortal, especially if that was actually the case.  [/quote]

It's racist for the Dalish to believe they were immortal based on the evidence they have, i.e., none. It's furthermore racist to use that belief, without any evidence, as the basis for racial segregation and a breeding program geared toward breeding an all mage immortal race, i.e., a state policy of racial supremacy. [/quote]

Aside from the Dalish adopting Aveline and taking in Feynriel, your point ignores that elves and humans produce human children. Per the developers. Per "The Calling". Per the games where we see the children of humans and elves who are human.

As for your remark that the Dalish are racist because they believe they were once immortal, that makes absolutely no sense. You're using inflammatory lanaguage to vilify the Dalish because their lore reads that the ancient elves were once immortal, and lost their immortality because of human contact. Even the Lady of the Forest remarks on the Dalish clan thinking that Zathrian represents the reclamation of the immortality of the People. If it was a lie, wouldn't the ancient spirit who has lived long enough to know better remark on this? It's possible their lore could be true. The Dalish elves who seem to live longer the more generations they live away from humans could suggest that perhaps the elves were once immortal.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And I find it hypocritical that the same people who endorse the Chantry controlled Circles (where mages are subjugated and segregated from the rest of society) vilify the elves for once trying to regain their immortality in the kingdom of the Dales. [/quote]

That's because you're apparently illiterate, since I don't support the Circles and haven't spoken in support for them. That I think Anders is as bad as Meredith doesn't mean I disagree with mages being free. [/quote]

I've read plenty of posters in this thread condemning the elves of the Dales for wanting to be left alone while supporting the Chantry and the templars segregating mages and ruling over them in other threads. There's a clear double-standard when the elves of the independent kingdom of the Dales are vilified because they wanted to regain their immortality and wanted to be left alone, while the Chantry and the templars are supported by those same people for segregating mages.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The fact that Grace has to point out that they aren't templars proves how factually inaccurate your statement is, especially since that line of dialogue doesn't disprove that Decimus thinks they are templars. [/quote]

No, the line of dialogue that proves that Decimus doesn't care they are templars is his subsequent line, that he doesn't care what shield they carry. But keep being intellectually bankrupt. [/quote]

It doesn't prove that, because when Decimus sees Hawke and his moiety crew, he exclaims: "They're here! The templars have come to take us back to the Circle!"

Even Grace has to point out that Hawke and his crew aren't templars. "These are no templars." The dialogue even affirms that Decimus seems to think Hawke and his crew are templars.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Since Gaider didn't even remember that there were lines to express an atheist point of view in Origins and Awakening, I don't see how you can seriously make that claim. [/quote]

Only in your world is this evidence or something or relevant to the conversation. [/quote]

Because Gaider said atheism didn't exist, until it was pointed out that there were options for the protagonist to express that he didn't believe in the Maker, which made Gaider concede that there were options to express atheism in Origins. He later admitted (in Xil's thread) that he forgot about the options in Origins and Awakening, and that fans had a better memory than he did.

It would explain why Hawke can only voice a religiously Andrastian point of view, instead of the player having the same kind of options that were avaliable to The Warden.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're not given the option to express an alternative point of view in the dialogue with Merrill and Sebastian, and Hawke even tells Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him. I'm not given the choice to express an alternative point of view. [/quote]

You're right. You can't dismiss Merrill and tell her she's wrong to believe in an afterlife, but I would wager you would still complain about that statement as being mean to Merrill.

But it doesn't matter, because you're still wrong. Being unable to affirmatively say that you're an atheist isn't the same thing as being positively forced to make an Andrastian statement, which is what you argued actually happens. Except it doesn't. [/quote]

Being able to voice only one point of view in that scene  - that of a person who is religiously Andrastian -  is the issue. Hawke can't voice an opposing perspective; there's no alternative point of view to Hawke expressing that his deceased mother is with the Maker.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You continue to say that, but ignore that we have Gaider's statement and dialogue from characters in the games that indicate that Kirby's post was incorrect. The overall information supports the idea that the Dalish live longer than the Alienage elves. [/quote]

No, it doesn't. Only in the evidence-free world that you apparently live in is this true, because there is no in-game evidence for it other than the timeline issues that arise from Master Illen's statement (and I love how this is clearly an intentional feature by the writers instead of bad writing, while the character's behaviour in the DA2 fade is bad writing, or Decimus and Grace being loons is bad writing). 

Otherwise, I don't ignore DG's statement. Not being intellectually bankrupt, I recognize that it's directly contradicted by MK's much more recent statement, and that there's no in-game evidence to distinguish between the two.[/quote]

There's a difference between Master Ilen talking about his father and his accomplishments to the Dalish protagonist, and Decimus thinking apostate Hawke and Merrill are templars while Grace seeks revenge against the man who helped her years later. It's not comparable.

Also, we have multiple characters addressing the longevity of the Dalish. We have a develper addressing that the Dalish seem to live longer the more generations they live away from humans. I'm not willing to toss either aside for one single post.

[TEWR]

For the record*, DAO proved MK wrong about lifespans in general. She said Dwarves live the same lifespan as humans, yet DAO provided evidence to contradict this. The last name written on House Ortan's records was from four centuries ago, and belonging to Orta's great-grandmother (which does NOT mesh well with lifespans and timelines).

Beyond that, Stalata Negat was written by the same Shaper over the period of six centuries.

So in addition to the Dalish evidence, I think it's simply that Mary Kirby is wrong because she didn't remember certain segments of DAO. It happens.

*Okay, any time I say "For the record" my mind goes to Slade in his Teen Titans incarnation.

Aside from the Dalish adopting Aveline and taking in Feynriel, your point ignores that elves and humans produce human children. Per the developers. Per "The Calling". Per the games where we see the children of humans and elves who are human.

Which, IIRC a certan DG quote, was due to "magic" and not biology. Which kinda implies a curse of some sort.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2013 - 03:32 .

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Master Ilen talks about his dad, who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Dales fell. And that was 3 centuries before Calenhad was born, 7 before the Dragon Age itself.

The thing that gets me about that is that Zathrian was considered something special and vaunted for having allegedly regained elven immortality.  Yet apparently all he did was reach around or half the ages of Ilen and his father?  It would also probably make Ilen himself older than Marethari, who is also noted for longevity while Ilen is not.  It just doesn't jive.  That's why I'm convinced it was a writing oversight or a holdover from earlier in DA:O development.  Perhaps the exile from the dales occurred earlier at some point.

[Sir JK]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For the record*, DAO proved MK wrong about lifespans in general. She said Dwarves live the same lifespan as humans, yet DAO provided evidence to contradict this. The last name written on House Ortan's records was from four centuries ago, and belonging to Orta's great-grandmother (which does NOT mesh well with lifespans and timelines).

Beyond that, Stalata Negat was written by the same Shaper over the period of six centuries.

Just to be picky...

We don't know it's Orta's great-grandmother's First or Full name. It could very well be her family name and thus allowing Orta to trace her roots.

And secondly: "Stalata negat: the commentary of the roll of ages". That second part of the name could imply it's not contemporary writing. Remember that most codex entries written in the past is clearly marked as such when it's signed. Stalata negat isn't.
Much like sister Petrine writing about the Chantry's past does not mean she was there. Or for that matter, keeper Gisharel's entry on the Dalish past.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Aside from the Dalish adopting Aveline and taking in Feynriel, your point ignores that elves and humans produce human children. Per the developers. Per "The Calling". Per the games where we see the children of humans and elves who are human.

Which, IIRC a certan DG quote, was due to "magic" and not biology. Which kinda implies a curse of some sort.

I remember that quote.  I also seem to recall Gaider hinting that this phenomenon would be explored at some point.

[TEWR]

Sir JK wrote...

Just to be picky...

We don't know it's Orta's great-grandmother's First or Full name. It could very well be her family name and thus allowing Orta to trace her roots.

I might not be understanding you clearly (it's late here), but here's what the Ortan records say:

This ancient registry is preserved in some kind of wax. It charts births, marriages, and deaths within House Ortan. The most recent date is from four hundred years ago.

This not only implies it's very detailed -- since you can't just say "A Dwarf died. We mourn." -- but the fact that Orta recognizes the last recorded name written on there from four hundred years ago as being her great-grandmother's suggests Dwarves live for a long time.

And secondly: "Stalata negat: the commentary of the roll of ages". That second part of the name could imply it's not contemporary writing. Remember that most codex entries written in the past is clearly marked as such when it's signed. Stalata negat isn't. 
Much like sister Petrine writing about the Chantry's past does not mean she was there. Or for that matter, keeper Gisharel's entry on the Dalish past.

Except Stalata Negat's entries themselves are clearly written in such a form as a person that was actually alive at those points in time, not a person simply reciting what is history like Petrine herself does.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2013 - 05:33 .

[Sir JK]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I might not be understanding you clearly (it's late here), but here's what the Ortan records say:

This ancient registry is preserved in some kind of wax. It charts births, marriages, and deaths within House Ortan. The most recent date is from four hundred years ago.

This not only implies it's very detailed -- since you can't just say "A Dwarf died. We mourn." -- but the fact that Orta recognizes the last recorded name written on there from four hundred years ago as being her great-grandmother's suggests Dwarves live for a long time.

No, all it suggests is that there's a link between the rolls and Orta's great grandmother. Not that her birth is actually written down in them. Consider that the dwarves list family by house.
All that is required for Orta's statement to be true is that the name of Orta's great grandmothers house is in the list of "marriages" or that they had a paragon with her great-grandmothers house-name. That's enough to make a link between the two. So she'd recognice the name of the house (her grandmothers "name") and can then use the records of the Shaperate to prove she's the sole living heir to house Orta.

It's kind of like seeing Aeducan in a text. It does not mean it's either paragon Aeducan or a current living member of the house. But for all intents at purposes it's their name.

I hope that clarifies my point

Also... as a nitpick... if it's Orta's great-grandmother on her mother's side would that not, knowing dwarves inherit caste and house based on their same-sex parent, also mean that Orta's house name likely would have been Orta in the first place

Except Stalata Negat's entries themselves are clearly written in such a form as a person that was actually alive at those points in time, not a person simply reciting what is history like Petrine herself does.

And it could very well have been copied into the text. We see excerpts of 5 chapters, not the whole text. Who knows what the rest of it says. It's definantely based on contemporary source material, whether Erden wrote the whole thing though... that's less certain.

I don't mean to say that it could not possibly have been written by Erden the whole time (though that implies that the elves got nothing on the dwarves) or that the records couldn't possibly reference Orta's great-grandmothers name listed among births. But it would not be my first guess. It's not very strong evidence.

Now if we had a reference of a dwarf living longer than we could reasonably expect (no... Caridin and Shayle does not count! ) then I could totally buy these supporting the claim that dwarves live mindboggingly long. But I can't see them making that claim credible on their own. There's simpler explanations available.

[Insaner Robot]

Ortan Thaig fell in the Exalted Age during the blight which places that date between 5:12 and 5:20. Even if we suppose Orta was born at the beginning of the dragon age that's still 388 to 380 years.
Meaning the three generations preceeding Orta, including her Great Grandmother, would have to live an average of between 129.3 and 126.3 years each. And that isn't taking into account the fact that her ancestor was in training at the time and not a baby.


Also.
www.youtube.com/watch
Her Great Grandmother and her husband, that seems to be quite name specific, like a family tree.

Although let's be clear, while Mary Kirby's post does indeed start out "All the races" she only mentions Qunari, Elves and humans within the body of the post. Leaving the possibility she wasn't including the dwarves.

Edit: Of topic.
I must have been away for quit a while, I used to see Writer, JB and others in the DA2 forums all the time. Does this mean everybody is winding down on two and getting ready for three now?

Modifié par Insaner Robot, 13 mai 2013 - 05:22 .

[Heimdall]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Aside from the Dalish adopting Aveline and taking in Feynriel, your point ignores that elves and humans produce human children. Per the developers. Per "The Calling". Per the games where we see the children of humans and elves who are human.

Which, IIRC a certan DG quote, was due to "magic" and not biology. Which kinda implies a curse of some sort.

I remember that quote.  I also seem to recall Gaider hinting that this phenomenon would be explored at some point.

That... Is actually kind of interesting

[The Hierophant]

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

[Heimdall]

The Hierophant wrote...

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

Like Ilen's father, I'm just suspicious because they seem to be pretty isolated instances and nobody ever remarks upon dwarves having such fantastic longevity.  It's just odd.

[IanPolaris]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

Like Ilen's father, I'm just suspicious because they seem to be pretty isolated instances and nobody ever remarks upon dwarves having such fantastic longevity.  It's just odd.

In the case of Dwarves, it might not be generally known.  After all, Dwarves don't really interact with surfacers much except for surface dwarves, and they are almost always wandering mechants, peddlers, and tinkers and thus typically aren't in any one place for very long (and until fairly recently there weren't that many surface dwarves).  Thus the fact (if it is one) that dwarves have long lifespans may not have become generally known among humans.

As for Dwarves, how would they really know since Dwarves seem to be exceptionally isolationist (and thus the only comparison the Dwarves would have would be to other dwarves really).

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

Like Ilen's father, I'm just suspicious because they seem to be pretty isolated instances and nobody ever remarks upon dwarves having such fantastic longevity.  It's just odd.

True, but i don't know how to explain away this, other than it being a writting error.

[The Hierophant]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

Like Ilen's father, I'm just suspicious because they seem to be pretty isolated instances and nobody ever remarks upon dwarves having such fantastic longevity.  It's just odd.

In the case of Dwarves, it might not be generally known.  After all, Dwarves don't really interact with surfacers much except for surface dwarves, and they are almost always wandering mechants, peddlers, and tinkers and thus typically aren't in any one place for very long (and until fairly recently there weren't that many surface dwarves).  Thus the fact (if it is one) that dwarves have long lifespans may not have become generally known among humans.

As for Dwarves, how would they really know since Dwarves seem to be exceptionally isolationist (and thus the only comparison the Dwarves would have would be to other dwarves really).

-Polaris

You'd figure that while the Warden was in Orzammar that there'd be mention of the previous Aeducan King's (Dwarven Noble's/Bhelen's father) reign lasting a century or two as that would be an impressive feat in comparison to the human monarchies of Thedas. 

[Heimdall]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

Like Ilen's father, I'm just suspicious because they seem to be pretty isolated instances and nobody ever remarks upon dwarves having such fantastic longevity.  It's just odd.

True, but i don't know how to explain away this, other than it being a writting error.

That's pretty much what I think it is.  Perhaps the writer of the dialogue wasn't aware of the 400 date or just didn't know they had a distinct date.  Then again they might have put in great grandmother without doing the math and realizing they needed a few more greats.

[azarhal]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I'll admit that Orta's great grandmother living 400 years ago seems legit. It's either intentional or whoever wrote that quest messed up.

Like Ilen's father, I'm just suspicious because they seem to be pretty isolated instances and nobody ever remarks upon dwarves having such fantastic longevity.  It's just odd.

True, but i don't know how to explain away this, other than it being a writting error.

What's the writting error in the video???