731 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While I picked the one that allowed me to protect hundreds of innocent people from their executioners. [/quote]

So what? I never said you were wrong yet you seem to think that by me picking another side is somehow claiming you are wrong.  The choice is there for a reason, get over it and move on. [/quote]

It's a situation about siding with Meredith to kill people, or to protect people by siding against her. It has nothing to do with bring pro-mage or pro-templar. You can side with Meredith and help her kill hundreds of people of all ages, or with the people she wants to kill simply for being mages.

It's an ultimatum, of course, but one anyone can decide to defy.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, an anti-mage religious organization shouldn't be supervising mages. [/quote]

Says you. The way I see it its better than Mages trying to non police themselves. [/quote]

That must explain the Chantry controlled Circles leading to a continental rebellion and the world being on the brink of war.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Decimus and Grace don't make sense...... As for Alain, he was raped by templars, and sided with Thrask to overthrow the tyrant Meredith from her dictatorship over Kirkwall. [/quote]

Oh well, that's how the story was written on Grace and Decimus. Complain to David Gaider about that. As for Alain, I feel for him but getting involved with crazy blood mages twice and cosigning a kidnapping in order to blackmail someone for aid etc are not things I take lightly. Thrask was a fool who ended up a dead fool. [/quote]

Stupid lunatics aren't much of an argument.

As for Thrask, he was killed by Plot Railroading. Why would he think a pro-mage Hawke who publicly condemned Meredith is his enemy?

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, I'm okay with killing templars who are trying to murder hundreds of men, women, and children simply for being mages. Meredith 's only argument to annul the Circle is that people will want the mages dead; that's it. There's no rebellion, there's no insurrection; Meredith wants to commit genocide to appease a hypothetical mob. [/quote]

Well let's see, the divine was already checking out Kirkwall for a possible Exalted March then a mage blow up the Chantry and murders the grand cleric. If Kirkwall suffers unrest and riot because of this that would probably be enough to call the city lost. If the divine calls for the March everyone would get put down including the Mages anyway. I would probably call for an RoA just to prevent that from happening. Why save the mages of Kirkwall if they may die anyway? I'd much rather use the lives of the mages to save the citizens. But that's just how I see it. I don't care about Meredith's reasons.  [/quote]

The Divine focused on the mages who wanted autonomy while ignoring Meredith's three year dictatorship, and the unrest this caused among civilians, nobles, mages and templars. Leliana's dialogue focused only on the mages, rather than the Knight-Commander ruling illegally or the templar death squad murdering civilians in broad daylight. And the Gallows is seperated from the mainland by a large stretch of water.

Meredith argues that the people will demand blood. Pro-Meredith Hawke argues the mages will be killed by the people. No one says they think this will cause an Exalted March. Trying to murder hundreds of people wasn't the answer to this situation.

Allowing someone with a bias against mages to watch over them as Knight-Commander was a huge mistake.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That's because I don't vilify mages for refusing to live in servitude to the Chantry, while I hold specific mages accountable for their actions and their mistakes: like Marethari's failings as a leader, and her endangering Merrill and the Sabrae clan with her reckless actions. [/quote]

You forgot the very reasons why mages are feared to begin with. Tearing open veils, demon summoning, blood sacrifices. Don't just pick the lightweight failures here. And who says I vilify mages for wanting freedom? I vilify mages who use blood magic for shortcuts and end up destorying themselves and everyone around them, I vilify mages to turn to demons thinking they are clever and on par with them when they are not (looking at you Merrill), I vilify mages like Danarious, and mages like Anders, the walking abonmination. I have wlays said that the circles should become schools ruled jointly by Mages and Templars, places for mages to learn and then go home to their families, but they should still submit phylacteries. Or if they want freedom they should try the Lucrosian approach and buy it. But vilifying people for wanting independance is ridiculous. [/quote]

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the people of the kingdom of Rivain disprove the idea that people hate mages or magic by default. Preaching hatred and intolerance against mages like the Chantry has will obviously cause negative opinion towards mages.

Also, we see Merrill handle magic adeptly for several years, and never abuse her blood magic abilities.

Last but not least, the Lucrosian way means nothing when the Chantry actively has all the power and authority. That's the huge road block you ignore when you bring this up.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how marginalized the elves were in the last game, that likely won't happen unless we get racial options back and treat the elves as an integral part of the story again. [/quote]

Why do elves have to be important for people to care about them? And this is coming from someone who laughed while she killed those elves during the Qunari attack. [/quote]

I never said important. I addressed they were marginalized last time. The elves didn't get much in terms of plot or story.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Because the situations are entirely different. The mages fight specifically against the templars who are trying to kill them for an act they had nothing to do with, while the Qunari elves are trying to help the Arishok take over Kirkwall.[/quote]

The only difference here is that you have a choice to save the mages or not. The Elves sided witht he Qunari because they were segregated and living in subpar conditions and from what we saw in the city elf playthough in origins. Have suffered constant abuses from humans there whole lives. As the city elf warden can tell King Calian when he asks about the alienages: Murder, rape, and injustice and one the conflicts that brought Hawke there was the city guard's lack of care for the murder of an elf from the alienage.

I can't blame the elves for siding with the Arishok. At least someone actually cared enough about them to bring them in and give them a better chance even if it is within the Qun.

But, as much as I feel for these elves. I cannot condone them running amok in the city streets killing people. But unlike the mages, I don't see many threads talking about how unfair it is that we have to kill them.[/quote]
They became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone. The mages, on the other hand, were fighting to stay alive and leave Kirkwall. It's not the same thing. If the downtrodden elves of occupied Dales wanted to be independent of the Orlesian Empire, for example, then that's a different matter entirely.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 mai 2013 - 12:08 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's a situation about siding with Meredith to kill people, or to protect people by siding against her. It has nothing to do with bring pro-mage or pro-templar. You can side with Meredith and help her kill hundreds of people of all ages, or with the people she wants to kill simply for being mages.

And yet despite realizing this, you somehow still glorify what Anders does.

Oh, right. Because in your world Anders, it was actually noble and laudable that Anders wanted to give Meredith a reason to kill every single mage in Kirkwall to start his glorious revolution. Their lives are worth sacrificing if they're going to die in the grand crusade, but not if they're going to die to make the opposite statement. 

They became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone. The mages, on the other hand, were fighting to stay alive and leave Kirkwall. It's not the same thing. If the downtrodden elves of occupied Dales wanted to be independent of the Orlesian Empire, for example, then that's a different matter entirely.

Holy hipocrisy, Batman! So then your actual support for the elves ends at Dalish utopia? What if the City Elves want to create their own Andrastian state? Would you want to put them down too?

The "barbaric" Qun would be a godsent for the elves - their entire lot in life would be determined entirely by their worth, and have nothing to do with their race. It would suck for mages, but work out brilliantly for non-mages. 

I guess that shows how far your actual "support" for the elves goes. 

Modifié par In Exile, 04 mai 2013 - 12:45 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Genshie wrote...

Having influence to do whatever they want, influencing the world, and people around them without any consent or choice just screams bad to me. I guess what I would try to do in DA3 if it is allowed is to find a balance of freedom but with a big brother is watching you kind of deal to keep you in line if you push the limits. Just curious what you guys may think of this as well.

You fear them because they are stronger than you. That makes perfect sense.

You know what else makes perfect sense? They will wipe you out because they are stronger than you. That is evolution.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 04 mai 2013 - 12:52 .

[Hazegurl]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's an ultimatum, of course, but one anyone can decide to defy.[/quote]

 I decided not to defy her wishes.

[quote]That must explain the Chantry controlled Circles leading to a continental rebellion and the world being on the brink of war.[/quote]

Don't care. Mages wanted war and they got it. I still did what I felt was best for Kirkwall then vanished like a boss!

[quote]Stupid lunatics aren't much of an argument.

As for Thrask, he was killed by Plot Railroading. Why would he think a pro-mage Hawke who publicly condemned Meredith is his enemy?[/quote]

And saying the devs screwed up isn't much of an argument either. Your issues with those two characters are better taken up with Gaider cause I didn't write them. If I did I would have Decimus turn on Hawke if Hawke doesn't wish to kill Thrask outside the cave. It's more reasonable and I would still have had my fill of mages. As for Thrask, no he died due to his own stupidity. I knew Grace was unstable when I lied for her and she got caught later on then proceeded to complain to Hawke that it was his fault that she got caught cause he sent her away with no food etc. Seriously wtf woman!

[quote]The Divine focused on the mages who wanted autonomy...[/quote]

No, they focused on the mages who were sneaking around trying to assassinate people, like the ones who came into the Viscount room and attacked Hawke.

[quote]Meredith's three year dictatorship, and the unrest this caused among civilians, nobles, mages and templars.[/quote]

In my playthrough the only people that had an issue with Meredith was Anders, Orsino, and other mages.

[quote]Leliana's dialogue focused only on the mages, rather than the Knight-Commander ruling illegally or the templar death squad murdering civilians in broad daylight. And the Gallows is seperated from the mainland by a large stretch of water. [/quote]

Now you're just complaining to complain. Whocares about what Leliana focused on, she was there for a few seconds and it was after an ambush attack by mages. Darn right she better be focused on that. and seriously, now you're complaining about where the Gallows is located? Okay.

[quote]Allowing someone with a bias against mages to watch over them as Knight-Commander was a huge mistake.[/quote]

So they should allow some soft hearted promage bias fool like Thrask do it? Well look at where he ended up. Personally I would elect Cullen for Meredith's job. He's strict and understands the damage mages can do without losing his head over it.

[quote]The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, and the people of the kingdom of Rivain disprove the idea that people hate mages or magic by default. Preaching hatred and intolerance against mages like the Chantry has will obviously cause negative opinion towards mages.[/quote]

There you go again about nothing I've written. I said I don't vilify mages for being mages or wanting freedom then proceeded to list the mage types I do see as villians. What does anything you've written have to do with that??

[quote]Also, we see Merrill handle magic adeptly for several years, and never abuse her blood magic abilities.[/quote]

Merrill is more of a danger to herself than anyone and yes she is dumb for thinking that she is on par with the mind of a demon.

[quote]Last but not least, the Lucrosian way means nothing when the Chantry actively has all the power and authority. That's the huge road block you ignore when you bring this up.[/quote]

Don't mages make money? Oh yes they do. If they didn't Lucrosians wouldn't exist now would they? It's not their fault they are the smallest sect and are surrounded by idiots who crave open war over smart tatics.

[quote]I never said important. I addressed they were marginalized last time. The elves didn't get much in terms of plot or story.[/quote]

Okay, Why do you need more plot and story to care about whether or not you had to butcher them in the streets?

[quote]They became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone. The mages, on the other hand, were fighting to stay alive and leave Kirkwall. It's not the same thing. If the downtrodden elves of occupied Dales wanted to be independent of the Orlesian Empire, for example, then that's a different matter entirely.[/quote]

 The Elves joined the Qun to make a better life for themselves because no one cared enough about them and their plight to even address it. At least mages had a place to go to address their issues and they chose not to do so.  What did the Elves have? Nothing at all. Not even the ear of that worthless Grand Cleric Orsino was meeting with. They were tired of being murdered with no justice and tired of nobles getting a free pass on raping and murdering their children. If Hawke can put them down in the streets even though they have a right to fight for themselves then why is it wrong for Hawke to put down the mages but still feel that they have a right to fight for their lives? IMO, my Hawke understood where those elves were coming from but still put them down and he understood where the mages were coming from and put them down as well. Stop trying to change my mind, at this point, if you have issue that badly with the choice to side with Templars then take it up with Gaider, the evil genius but I'm done talking about whining mages.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 04 mai 2013 - 01:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Oh, right. Because in your world Anders, it was actually noble and laudable that Anders wanted to give Meredith a reason to kill every single mage in Kirkwall to start his glorious revolution. Their lives are worth sacrificing if they're going to die in the grand crusade, but not if they're going to die to make the opposite statement.

The world had to see the true depravity of the templars. I don't entirely agree with his actions, but that doesn't mean that I'll kill him.

Holy hipocrisy, Batman! So then your actual support for the elves ends at Dalish utopia? What if the City Elves want to create their own Andrastian state? Would you want to put them down too?

It depends. Will they too attempt to tear down the Dalish?

The "barbaric" Qun would be a godsent for the elves - their entire lot in life would be determined entirely by their worth, and have nothing to do with their race. It would suck for mages, but work out brilliantly for non-mages.

Trading one enslavement for another, and the mages cannot be sacrificed in such a manner. Such is betrayal most foul.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
The world had to see the true depravity of the templars. I don't entirely agree with his actions, but that doesn't mean that I'll kill him.

I didn't say that. I said that it's morally bankrupt to distinguish between Ander's planned extermination of every mage in Kirkwall and Meredith's planned extermination of every mage in Kirkwall based on what ideology people like more.

It depends. Will they too attempt to tear down the Dalish?

Why should it matter? Are the Dalish somehow special or worth protecting moreso than any other aspect of current elf culture? 

You're the one that believes that there's something intrinsically special about being (the Thedas equivalent) of biologically elven. So it seems hypocritical that you'd then rank order the lives of elves based on what they believe in. 

Trading one enslavement for another, and the mages cannot be sacrificed in such a manner. Such is betrayal most foul.

The elves wouldn't be enslaved at all. And clearly mages can be sacrificed in that manner. You just sad: "the world had to see the true depravity of the templars."

So apparently massacring mages to show other mages that, no seriously, the templars suck is a great reason to have them sacrificed, but the betterment of the elves isn't. 

[Xilizhra]

I didn't say that. I said that it's morally bankrupt to distinguish between Ander's planned extermination of every mage in Kirkwall and Meredith's planned extermination of every mage in Kirkwall based on what ideology people like more.

Anders wanted them to win and escape, not to be exterminated. He just didn't think he'd be alive to help.

Why should it matter? Are the Dalish somehow special or worth protecting moreso than any other aspect of current elf culture?

You're the one that believes that there's something intrinsically special about being (the Thedas equivalent) of biologically elven. So it seems hypocritical that you'd then rank order the lives of elves based on what they believe in.

Because Andrastian culture is driven to crush and oppress other cultures, much as the Qun.

The elves wouldn't be enslaved at all. And clearly mages can be sacrificed in that manner. You just sad: "the world had to see the true depravity of the templars."

I explicitly said I didn't agree with Anders' actions there, but the manner I'm referring to is on a continent-wide permanent societal level if the qunari won. And every last qunari is a slave, although the qamek-warped are the most explicitly such, along with the saarebas.

In any case, none of that matters. All that's necessary is that the elves in Demands of the Qun attacked me lethally and refused to surrender, leaving me with no options in the matter. The mages in The Last Straw were the victims of templar attack, and I will defend them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 mai 2013 - 03:03 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain the Chantry controlled Circles leading to a continental rebellion and the world being on the brink of war. [/quote]

Don't care. Mages wanted war and they got it. I still did what I felt was best for Kirkwall then vanished like a boss! [/quote]

The mages wanted autonomy. The templars decided to go to war over it.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Stupid lunatics aren't much of an argument.

As for Thrask, he was killed by Plot Railroading. Why would he think a pro-mage[/i] Hawke who publicly condemned Meredith is his enemy?[/quote]

And saying the devs screwed up isn't much of an argument either. Your issues with those two characters are better taken up with Gaider cause I didn't write them. If I did I would have Decimus turn on Hawke if Hawke doesn't wish to kill Thrask outside the cave. It's more reasonable and I would still have had my fill of mages. As for Thrask, no he died due to his own stupidity. I knew Grace was unstable when I lied for her and she got caught later on then proceeded to complain to Hawke that it was his fault that she got caught cause he sent her away with no food etc. Seriously wtf woman! [/quote]

That doesn't change the fact that Dragon Age II is full of insane and stupid mage antagonists who make no sense. Lunatics who aren't even logical in the context of the story don't persuade me.

And even Grace killing Thrask makes no sense if Hawke helped her escape. Neither does Thrask opposing Hawke if the Champion publicly opposed Meredith and is pro-mage. It's poorly written, and Thrask deserved better.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Divine focused on the mages who wanted autonomy... [/quote]

No, they focused on the mages who were sneaking around trying to assassinate people, like the ones who came into the Viscount room and attacked Hawke. [/quote]

The Resolutionists wanted autonomy. And they attacked the left-hand of the Divine who would prefer an Exalted March to mage autonomy.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Meredith's three year dictatorship, and the unrest this caused among civilians, nobles, mages and templars. [/quote]

In my playthrough the only people that had an issue with Meredith was Anders, Orsino, and other mages. [/quote]

Except for the templars who oppose her, the nobles who simply didn't approach you, the civilians who condemn Meredith regardless of what your Hawke advocates, and the people being murdered by Meredith's death squad.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Leliana's dialogue focused only on the mages, rather than the Knight-Commander ruling illegally or the templar death squad murdering civilians in broad daylight. And the Gallows is seperated from the mainland by a large stretch of water. [/quote]
[/b]
Now you're just complaining to complain. Whocares about what Leliana focused on, she was there for a few seconds and it was after an ambush attack by mages. Darn right she better be focused on that. and seriously, now you're complaining about where the Gallows is located? Okay. [/quote]

Because Leliana's reasoning was moronic. The mages are at fault because she lured an enemy of the Chantry to attack her? It makes no sense, so your criticism is unwarranted.

Also, I'm pointing out the fallacy of people wanting to harm the mages by pointing out the fact that the Gallows are surrounded by water a good distance from the shore.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Allowing someone with a bias against mages to watch over them as Knight-Commander was a huge mistake. [/quote]

So they should allow some soft hearted promage bias fool like Thrask do it? Well look at where he ended up. Personally I would elect Cullen for Meredith's job. He's strict and understands the damage mages can do without losing his head over it. [/quote]

Cullen is hardly any better than Meredith. He thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people, views them as weapons, and supports the Tranquil Solution. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke, not when the templars are killing hundreds of innocent people.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, we see Merrill handle magic adeptly for several years, and never abuse her blood magic abilities. [/quote]

Merrill is more of a danger to herself than anyone and yes she is dumb for thinking that she is on par with the mind of a demon. [/quote]

Merrill is an intelligent mage who seeks to restore revolutionary technology to irrevocably change the lives of the People. I don't see a reason to vilify her for trying to stop the plight of the elves.

Also, considering Marethari fell prey to Audacity while Merrill didn't, your comment makes no sense; also, your comment ignores that Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped, rendering him harmless unless it is released from it's prison, you're wrong about Merrill.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Last but not least, the Lucrosian way means nothing when the Chantry actively has all the power and authority. That's the huge road block you ignore when you bring this up. [/quote]

Don't mages make money? Oh yes they do. If they didn't Lucrosians wouldn't exist now would they? It's not their fault they are the smallest sect and are surrounded by idiots who crave open war over smart tatics. [/quote]

You mean people who want freedom instead of slavery.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I never said important. I addressed they were marginalized last time. The elves didn't get much in terms of plot or story. [/quote]

Okay, Why do you need more plot and story to care about whether or not you had to butcher them in the streets? [/quote]

I already care more about the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales than I do about Empress Celene or Grand Duke Gaspard. I simply detest the Qunari like I do the Andrastian Chantry.

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
They became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone. The mages, on the other hand, were fighting to stay alive and leave Kirkwall. It's not the same thing. If the downtrodden elves of occupied Dales wanted to be independent of the Orlesian Empire, for example, then that's a different matter entirely. [/quote]

The Elves joined the Qun to make a better life for themselves because no one cared enough about them and their plight to even address it. At least mages had a place to go to address their issues and they chose not to do so.  What did the Elves have? Nothing at all. Not even the ear of that worthless Grand Cleric Orsino was meeting with. They were tired of being murdered with no justice and tired of nobles getting a free pass on raping and murdering their children. If Hawke can put them down in the streets even though they have a right to fight for themselves then why is it wrong for Hawke to put down the mages but still feel that they have a right to fight for their lives? IMO, my Hawke understood where those elves were coming from but still put them down and he understood where the mages were coming from and put them down as well. Stop trying to change my mind, at this point, if you have issue that badly with the choice to side with Templars then take it up with Gaider, the evil genius but I'm done talking about whining mages. [/quote]
Your comparison makes no sense. The mages want to leave Kirkwall with their lives; the Qunari elves tried to help impose a sexist, barbaric system on the people of Kirkwall.

Also, I don't blame the mages for being fed up with nearly a thousand years of servitude to the Chantry. And voting for autonomy wasn't a declaration of war. The mages emancipated themselves, while the templars decided to take up arms to kill people.

The Chantry ruled them; templars had dominion over them by divine right. The mages didn't have the power. Mages were being tortured, raped, beaten, made illegally tranquil, and killed by morally bankrupt templars because the mages lived in a Chantry controlled Circle where they were slaves. Anders even talked about the many mages who committed suicide because of the Circle.

Last but not least, I'm not trying to change your mind. I simply think that it's inaccurate to say that siding with Meredith is a pro-templar choice when siding with her has nothing to do with it. It's a pro-Meredith choice; the dichotomy between mages and templars doesn't factor into it. She simply wants to appease a mob that didn't exist when she ordered the execution of all the mages. Even a pro-templar player can think that Meredith's ultimatum is asinine (and some have voiced this).

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for Thrask, he was killed by Plot Railroading. Why would he think a pro-mage[/i] Hawke who publicly condemned Meredith is his enemy?

That doesn't change the fact that Dragon Age II is full of insane and stupid mage antagonists who make no sense. Lunatics who aren't even logical in the context of the story don't persuade me.

And even Grace killing Thrask makes no sense if Hawke helped her escape. Neither does Thrask opposing Hawke if the Champion publicly opposed Meredith and is pro-mage. It's poorly written, and Thrask deserved better.

You know... you are playing the famous apostate mage that publicily criticizes the woman that raised you to the most prestigeful position in the city. Alternatively that shelters a well known apostate that fiercy protest her very existance.
Pretty much the entire city knows you´re an apostate/friend of apostates by act III yet there's not a single templar knocking down your door despite Meredith's word being the law.

What conclusion should the rebels have drawn? That you're probably a nice guy that has their best interest in mind and is not at all just feigning opposition so that you can get accepted by them and then betray them for even more power when Meredith commands?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't let someone with those credentials get close to my secret movement. It pretty much screams "do not trust". No matter what they publicly have said.

The Resolutionists wanted autonomy. And they attacked the left-hand of the Divine who would prefer an Exalted March to mage autonomy.

The Libertarians want autonomy and are at the time tolerated. The Resolutionists are about violently achieving it. Emphasis on violently. It's also the latter group that seems to be converging on Kirkwall.

Merrill is an intelligent mage who seeks to restore revolutionary technology to irrevocably change the lives of the People. I don't see a reason to vilify her for trying to stop the plight of the elves.

Also, considering Marethari fell prey to Audacity while Merrill didn't, your comment makes no sense; also, your comment ignores that Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped, rendering him harmless unless it is released from it's prison, you're wrong about Merrill.

You do realise she's getting her instructions on how to repair the Eluvian from Audacity, right?

The plan that she can outwit a pride demon, restore technology lost since the days of Arlathan and thus give her people back their place in the world and then be welcomed back in open arms by mom... sorry... Marethari, is a fairly audacious (hint, hint) one.

Of course she knows Audacity is trying to trick her, and yes she is fairly responsible in how she uses her magic. Her folly is that she thinks the instructions she "tricks" out of him are genuine ones. There's a reason it doesn't work.

Modifié par Sir JK, 04 mai 2013 - 06:26 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

That's only one page and that already sounds 100 times more interesting then the whole Hawke personal story,the Mage-templar war,or the Inquisition.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Anders wanted them to win and escape, not to be exterminated. He just didn't think he'd be alive to help.

Anders wanted Meredith's genocide. His "there can be no compromise" speech was all about that. Anders wanted to create such a chaotic even that the templars would be moved to exterminate or torture them to such a horrible extent that the mages had to fight back.

His whole plan was about sacrificing them to pain, death and suffering for the sake of the glorious revolution. 

Because Andrastian culture is driven to crush and oppress other cultures, much as the Qun.

So the solution is to forcefully convert all of the elves to Dalish culture? How is that different? 

I explicitly said I didn't agree with Anders' actions there,

You say that, but it doesn't fit well with the general comments you've made on this point. You don't think Anders cosigned all of the mages to Kirkwall to death, meaning that you think it was actually plausible for them to win a military battle against the templar. You say that "the world had to see the true depravity of the templars" which clearly sounds like a justification for the action, and the last thing you said in your previous post was that you don't "entirely agree". 

With all of that in mind, please excuse me for not believing you for an absolute second when you say that you don't condone Ander's actions or the sacrifice of mages for the grand ideological crusade. 

but the manner I'm referring to is on a continent-wide permanent societal level if the qunari won. And every last qunari is a slave, although the qamek-warped are the most explicitly such, along with the saarebas.

On what possible basis can you say that "every qunari is a slave"? Because if you want to play that game, the only way you're going to win it is by creating an analytically empty category that equally applies to any person ever raised in any particular culture under any given belief.

In any case, none of that matters. All that's necessary is that the elves in Demands of the Qun attacked me lethally and refused to surrender, leaving me with no options in the matter. The mages in The Last Straw were the victims of templar attack, and I will defend them. 

And the elves in Kirkwall weren't the victims of the kind of systemic discrimination that puts everything any of us have ever experienced to shame? But their victimization is okay, apparently, because they wanted to kill you as the heroic protagonist, and so how dare they. 

The abuse that the elves endured was every bit as bad - if not worse - than what the mages endured in the Kirkwall Circle. And yet somehow their rebellion - because it involves an ideology that you don't like (with the apparent reason being that it isn't Dalish or pro-magic) - is something to be put down instead of venerated. 

Modifié par In Exile, 04 mai 2013 - 07:10 .

[In Exile]

Sir JK wrote...
Of course she knows Audacity is trying to trick her, and yes she is fairly responsible in how she uses her magic. Her folly is that she thinks the instructions she "tricks" out of him are genuine ones. There's a reason it doesn't work.

Merril isn't an idiotic for playing with Audacity. She's an idiot for thinking that the world revolves around her. She couldn't escape out of the box that was labelled "Merill is important". That's what led to the tragedy. Marethari was obsessed with "protecting" Merril and so sacrificed her clan and herself. But Merril was so caught up in the idea that she mattered that she never even took a moment to think that she was an irrelevant spec to Audacity. 

If you look at it from the Demon's POV, it hedged very nicely: if Merrill was an outright idiot, it would escape by possessing her. But even if Merril was on guard for that, she just used Merrill's fear as a ground to isolate her. With Merril isolated, Audacity could torment Marethari and escape through her. The demon played both of them against each other, and won spectacularly. 

It was arrogance that did them both in. Merrill, because she thought she had any kind of intrinsic value or destiny. And Marethari, because she thought she knew better. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Merrill is the biggest failure of a mage we have yet to encounter. She thinks herself so clever, and even powerful enough to interact with the likes of Audacity, but yet she failed spectacularly at defending herself against Wryme. Something supposedly all mages should have learned from the very early stages of their magic. Merrill is a failure.

[Xilizhra]

So the solution is to forcefully convert all of the elves to Dalish culture? How is that different?

And I said that in my post where?

You say that, but it doesn't fit well with the general comments you've made on this point. You don't think Anders cosigned all of the mages to Kirkwall to death, meaning that you think it was actually plausible for them to win a military battle against the templar. You say that "the world had to see the true depravity of the templars" which clearly sounds like a justification for the action, and the last thing you said in your previous post was that you don't "entirely agree".

Of course it's plausible. They don't have to hold the city and kill every templar, just escape. If Anders is friended, he has every reason to believe that Hawke will back up the mages here; if rivaled, Justice takes over his body and Anders isn't to blame anyway. A gamble with too much risk for my tastes anyway, but I can see where his thought processes were going.

On what possible basis can you say that "every qunari is a slave"? Because if you want to play that game, the only way you're going to win it is by creating an analytically empty category that equally applies to any person ever raised in any particular culture under any given belief.

The Qun explicitly demands that its servants sacrifice all individual initiative and significant preference to just follow its demands.

And the elves in Kirkwall weren't the victims of the kind of systemic discrimination that puts everything any of us have ever experienced to shame? But their victimization is okay, apparently, because they wanted to kill you as the heroic protagonist, and so how dare they.

The abuse that the elves endured was every bit as bad - if not worse - than what the mages endured in the Kirkwall Circle. And yet somehow their rebellion - because it involves an ideology that you don't like (with the apparent reason being that it isn't Dalish or pro-magic) - is something to be put down instead of venerated.

The point is that I had no choice. I'm not going into the Alienage and killing every elf I see, I'm just trying to make my way to Hightown. I don't even want to stay in Lowtown. If there's any analogy here, it's to the blood mages who join forces with the demons attacking the city in The Last Straw, and I fight those too.
In any case, the mage rebellion has a single target, the Templar Order and the power of the Chantry. The Qun wants to conquer the entirety of Thedas as an ideological point.

Merril isn't an idiotic for playing with Audacity. She's an idiot for
thinking that the world revolves around her. She couldn't escape out of
the box that was labelled "Merill is important". That's what led to the
tragedy. Marethari was obsessed with "protecting" Merril and so
sacrificed her clan and herself. But Merril was so caught up in the idea
that she mattered that she never even took a moment to think that she was an irrelevant spec to Audacity.

Absurd. Merrill never for a moment considered herself intrinsically important; it's just that she alone was actually doing something about the loss of elven culture. Her flaw, if any, was naivite, not arrogance (and regrettably believing that her mother loved her more than she loved power).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 mai 2013 - 11:34 .

[Hazegurl]

Trying....to ...resist...the power...of the mage....debate.....Oh well.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The mages wanted autonomy. The templars decided to go to war over it.[/quote]

Their idiotic tatics is what brought them war.

[quote]That doesn't change the fact that Dragon Age II is full of insane and stupid mage antagonists...[/quote]

Just admit that your problem is that you see no mage as capable of doing wrong. I guess to you Danarius was a good man and Fenris was just making it all up.

[quote]The Resolutionists wanted autonomy. And they attacked the left-hand of the Divine who would prefer an Exalted March to mage autonomy.[/quote]

Anarchist want autonomy from the government. Are you saying that it's okay for them to run around murdering government officals to make it happen?

[quote]Except for the templars who oppose her, the nobles who simply didn't approach you, the civilians who condemn Meredith regardless of what your Hawke advocates, and the people being murdered by Meredith's death squad.[/quote]

You mean those fools who got killed by mages? Those noble didn't approach cause they don't exist in my world. Oh and I love the dramatic "death squad" there. Well I didn't see people dying all over the streets of Kirkwall nor did I see smoke rising from the Gallows from Meredith's N*zi gas chambers you seem to imagine her having. I may not approve of her being Viscount but I think anti Meredith posters go a little overboard here.

[quote]Because Leliana's reasoning was moronic. The mages are at fault because she lured an enemy of the Chantry to attack her? It makes no sense, so your criticism is unwarranted.

Also, I'm pointing out the fallacy of people wanting to harm the mages by pointing out the fact that the Gallows are surrounded by water a good distance from the shore.[/quote]

I didn't realize that just setting up a secret meeting was enough to lure otherwise innocent people(who knew of no such meeting) to attack.  And like no one can get to the Gallows. Besides, I've already stated that I don't care about Meredith's mob reason. I understand where she is coming from but that is all. If she decided not to call an RoA I wouldn't say she was wrong. If I was her I would have waited to see what was going to happen, give Anders a public execution, lock up the mages and search their rooms, kill any practicing blood mages, and wait. If civil unrest occurs within Kirkwall, call the RoA to prevent the Exalted March. I see no need in keeping alive mages that will die anyway.

[quote]Cullen is hardly any better than Meredith. He thinks mages shouldn't be treated like people, views them as weapons, and supports the Tranquil Solution. He's only willing to stop Meredith when she threatens Hawke, not when the templars are killing hundreds of innocent people.[/quote]

Cullen was miles better than Meredith. He was against the RoA. He admitted that it is only for circles that are lost. He doesn't have to live up the butt crack of mages just to do his job right.

[quote]Merrill is an intelligent mage who seeks to restore revolutionary technology to irrevocably change the lives of the People. I don't see a reason to vilify her for trying to stop the plight of the elves.

Also, considering Marethari fell prey to Audacity while Merrill didn't, your comment makes no sense; also, your comment ignores that Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped, rendering him harmless unless it is released from it's prison, you're wrong about Merrill.[/quote]

Merrill was a straight up moron who thought she could outwit demons and was a racist. She was all buttered up for that demon but was saved due to Marethari's sick obsession to protect her. There is no such thing as a harmless spirit so even Merrill would disagree with your statement.

[quote]You mean people who want freedom instead of slavery.[/quote]

No, I mean people who desire their freedom who actually know how to use that thing stuffed inside their skull.

[quote]I already care more about the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales than I do about Empress Celene or Grand Duke Gaspard. I simply detest the Qunari like I do the Andrastian Chantry.[/quote]

This is about whether or not you care about slaughtering those elves in the street. You don't, now move on.

[quote]Your comparison makes no sense. The mages want to leave Kirkwall with their lives; the Qunari elves tried to help impose a sexist, barbaric system on the people of Kirkwall....[/quote]

It does, you just disagree with it. You seem to not think that it's important for the city elves to do whatever it takes to end their suffering. You seem to only care for the suffering of the mages. Bringing up mage suffering as a counter argument means absolutely nothing here, because we are talking about the suffering of the city elves and the daily abuses they have lived with and the violent means they have chosen to free themselves of it. You always mention the "men, women, and children." being murdered but really you only care because they are mages.  Anyway, both groups are disadvantaged and both groups opted for violence to end it. Yet you seem to be of the opinion that it's okay for one group but not the other. 

[quote]Last but not least, I'm not trying to change your mind. I simply think that it's inaccurate to say that siding with Meredith is a pro-templar choice when siding with her has nothing to do with it. It's a pro-Meredith choice; the dichotomy between mages and templars doesn't factor into it. She simply wants to appease a mob that didn't exist when she ordered the execution of all the mages. Even a pro-templar player can think that Meredith's ultimatum is asinine (and some have voiced this).
[/quote]

LOL!!! I have already said I disagreed with Meredith yet sided with the Templars. I don't see how that is in anyway inaccurate. If I was on Meredith's side I would have killed the mages who came to me for aid, and killed Bethany too, and I would have told Cullen to shut his trap when he obviously wanted to speak out in disagreement.  I played the middle ground for a good chunk of the game and hoped I could still do so, but when given a choice I'd rather not kill Templars in the streets and allow the chance of blood mages to roam free. Not everything is as cut and dry as you make it out to be. There may have been Templars there who disagreed with the RoA but they were still carrying out their duties. You're gonna call them pro-Meredith too?

Modifié par Hazegurl, 04 mai 2013 - 03:33 .

[Xilizhra]

There may have been Templars there who disagreed with the RoA but they were still carrying out their duties. You're gonna call them pro-Meredith too?

If they carry it out, they will surrender or die.

[Noctis Augustus]

Xilizhra wrote...

There may have been Templars there who disagreed with the RoA but they were still carrying out their duties. You're gonna call them pro-Meredith too?

If they carry it out, they will surrender or die.

Not with me. Anyone who claims to be a templar will die. No mercy.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 04 mai 2013 - 04:00 .

[Hazegurl]

Xilizhra wrote...

There may have been Templars there who disagreed with the RoA but they were still carrying out their duties. You're gonna call them pro-Meredith too?

If they carry it out, they will surrender or die.

That's cool. Just not in my playthroughs.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
And I said that in my post where?

You didn't. I'm asking you if that's your view, given that your opinion is that (i) "Andrastian culture is driven to crush and oppress other cultures, much as the Qun"; and (ii) that you would potentially want to demolish, militarily, an Andrastian Elven state if they chose to "attempt to tear down the Dalish". Given that (iii) you are obviously not a supporter of forcing the elves to live in alienages in perpetuity but (iv) you see their conversion to the Qun as something horrifying, that leaves very little room for what betterment for the elves might mean.

Given that your comments clearly indicate that Andrastian CEs aren't valuable to you (compared to the Dalish, given that you would choose the Dalish over them in a military conflict), I'm asking you if your idea of what it means to be elven ends at whatever it is that the Dalish are, and furthermore, if you would force the elves to become Dalish if push came to shove. 

Of course it's plausible. They don't have to hold the city and kill every templar, just escape.

They're all trapped inside an island prison, guarded 24/7 by an army of templars. It was only through what can be described as an incredible fluke that the mages were actually out of the Gallows when Anders went nuclear. But if all the mages were in the Gallows when the bomb went off, then the slaughter would be easy for the templars. 

If the mages could just up and leave, then the templars wouldn't be very much of a threat to begin with.

EDIT: Not to mention that what your saying is, again, an irrelevant dodge. Anders makes it clear that want he wanted was "no compromise". When Orsino calls him out for having condemnd the entire mages to death, Anders outright says that it's better to die in rebellion right now that live in slavery. He wants death for the mages, and he wants a grand war. 

That's the moral view I'm asking you about. Do you believe in that? That the mages should die for the sake of the crusade, whether or not they want to? Should their lives be sacrificed?

If Anders is friended, he has every reason to believe that Hawke will back up the mages here; if rivaled, Justice takes over his body and Anders isn't to blame anyway. A gamble with too much risk for my tastes anyway, but I can see where his thought processes were going.

I'm not talking about Anders. I'm talking about your moral views on this point. You've dodged the question again: do you think that Anders was justified to massacre the mages for the sake of the glorious crusade of mage freedom? If yes, how is that morally distinct from Meredith massacring the lot of them for the sake of her beliefs, i.e., protecting the mundanes?

The Qun explicitly demands that its servants sacrifice all individual initiative and significant preference to just follow its demands.

Firstly, it clearly doesn't. The Qun is not a person that actually makes demands - it's a complex societal web. There is an entire body of qunari that interprets the Qun and its demands. And even for individuals who interpret it themselves, we clearly see it being interpreted in a way that feeds into whatever personal goals the indvidiual has.

The Arishok is the best example. He hates Kirkwall, and eventually the qun "demands" that he raise the craphole to the ground. There's no written rule that said that the Arishok has to raise Kirkwall on 9:XX Dragon or behead the Viscount, but he does it because he's fed up. 

That's about as individualistic a choice as you can get. 

Edit: I realize that I didn't finish this thought. All of this is to say that this isn't at all distinct from any other kind of society where there is some guiding moral principle that governs behaviour. 

The point is that I had no choice. 

That's not what we're talking about here. You said that the "[t]hey became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone".

The clear implication from your comment is that they are somehow deserving of death - or, alternatively, that you are justified in killing them - because they became qunari, sided with the Arishok, and decided to impose the Qun. 

I'm not going into the Alienage and killing every elf I see, I'm just trying to make my way to Hightown.

This also isn't what we were talking about, cf. the comment I quote above.

I don't even want to stay in Lowtown. If there's any analogy here, it's to the blood mages who join forces with the demons attacking the city in The Last Straw, and I fight those too.

In any case, the mage rebellion has a single target, the Templar Order and the power of the Chantry. The Qun wants to conquer the entirety of Thedas as an ideological point.

The Mage rebellion was to overthrow the Chantry and the social order of Thedas on the basis of an ideological point: freedom for the mages. Pretending otherwise is just intellectually bankrupt.

Now, obviously we can talk about what ideologues are better, more justified on moral grounds. 

Absurd. Merrill never for a moment considered herself intrinsically important;

Of course she does. From the start, she assumes that Audacity is targeting her. She assumes that by separating herself from the village, she's somehow "protecting" it, because she's moved the demon's target away. She assumes that the Eluvian has value, and that's she's doing great work by preserving her people's culture instead of polishing an archaic trinket. 

it's just that she alone was actually doing something about the loss of elven culture. Her flaw, if any, was naivite, not arrogance (and regrettably believing that her mother loved her more than she loved power).

And there you go! I mean, you're actually proving the point. Look at what you're saying - "she alone" is "actually doing something"? The clear implication is that no one else is - that she's doing some great work the like of which other elves have never seen. It's all self-importance. 

And what are you even talking about re: love for power?

Modifié par In Exile, 04 mai 2013 - 09:45 .

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for Thrask, he was killed by Plot Railroading. Why would he think a pro-mage[/i] Hawke who publicly condemned Meredith is his enemy?

That doesn't change the fact that Dragon Age II is full of insane and stupid mage antagonists who make no sense. Lunatics who aren't even logical in the context of the story don't persuade me.

And even Grace killing Thrask makes no sense if Hawke helped her escape. Neither does Thrask opposing Hawke if the Champion publicly opposed Meredith and is pro-mage. It's poorly written, and Thrask deserved better.

You know... you are playing the famous apostate mage that publicily criticizes the woman that raised you to the most prestigeful position in the city. Alternatively that shelters a well known apostate that fiercy protest her very existance.
Pretty much the entire city knows you´re an apostate/friend of apostates by act III yet there's not a single templar knocking down your door despite Meredith's word being the law.

What conclusion should the rebels have drawn? That you're probably a nice guy that has their best interest in mind and is not at all just feigning opposition so that you can get accepted by them and then betray them for even more power when Meredith commands?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't let someone with those credentials get close to my secret movement. It pretty much screams "do not trust". No matter what they publicly have said.

You mean the famous apostate who uses blood magic, is in love with a blood mage, has killed templars to protect mages, and is best friends with a member of the mage unground? Who also protected the Starkhaven mages from the templars, helped the mage underground, and publicly condemned Meredith's dictatorship? Yeah, I can imagine more than a few reasons why Sir Thrask and his fellow mages and templars should have known better.

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Resolutionists wanted autonomy. And they attacked the left-hand of the Divine who would prefer an Exalted March to mage autonomy.

The Libertarians want autonomy and are at the time tolerated. The Resolutionists are about violently achieving it. Emphasis on violently. It's also the latter group that seems to be converging on Kirkwall.

And if Leliana lured the carta into attacking her, I suppose she could have blamed the carta for all the unrest in Kirkwall as well. There's no basis for her argument to blame everything on the Resolutionists. The Resolutionists attacking Leliana doesn't prove anything, especially when she lured them out in the first place. Why doesn't she look at the likely reason behind the unrest in Kirkwall? Meredith seized power illegally, she has caused unrest among the civlians, the nobles, the mages, and even among her own templars. She even has a death squad murdering civlians in broad daylight! It's not difficult to imagine what could be causing the unrest, instead of laying all the blame on the mages.

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill is an intelligent mage who seeks to restore revolutionary technology to irrevocably change the lives of the People. I don't see a reason to vilify her for trying to stop the plight of the elves.

Also, considering Marethari fell prey to Audacity while Merrill didn't, your comment makes no sense; also, your comment ignores that Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped, rendering him harmless unless it is released from it's prison, you're wrong about Merrill.

You do realise she's getting her instructions on how to repair the Eluvian from Audacity, right?

Actually, Merrill is constructing the Eluvian based on her study of the lore and the information she extrapolated from the shard - per the developers. She went to Audacity to learn blood magic because she couldn't cleanse the shard with ordinary magic, as she lacked the necessary amount of lyrium to perform the spell. Audacity is also sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem, so it is capable of communication - little else.

Sir JK wrote...

The plan that she can outwit a pride demon, restore technology lost since the days of Arlathan and thus give her people back their place in the world and then be welcomed back in open arms by mom... sorry... Marethari, is a fairly audacious (hint, hint) one.

Marethari tries to get Merrill to return in Act II - she poisoned the clan against her in order to coerce her to come back. It's the problem I have with Marethari - she makes the members of the Sabrae clan think Merrill will bring back the taint, but then welcomes her back with open arms as long as she gives up her research. Then Marethari has an entirely different explanation entirely for her reason against the Eluvian in Act III, where the only source of information this could have come from is Audacity!

That's why I don't condemn Merrill. She isn't trying to outwit Audacity. She is trying to restore ancient technology that could benefit the People.

Sir JK wrote...

Of course she knows Audacity is trying to trick her, and yes she is fairly responsible in how she uses her magic. Her folly is that she thinks the instructions she "tricks" out of him are genuine ones. There's a reason it doesn't work.

Considering that Marethari released Audacity, it seems more like it was trying to trick the Keeper. And given the events that unfolded, it worked.

[Xilizhra]

Given that your comments clearly indicate that Andrastian CEs aren't valuable to you (compared to the Dalish, given that you would choose the Dalish over them in a military conflict), I'm asking you if your idea of what it means to be elven ends at whatever it is that the Dalish are, and furthermore, if you would force the elves to become Dalish if push came to shove.

An Andrastian city elf state is tolerable but regrettable.

That's the moral view I'm asking you about. Do you believe in that? That the mages should die for the sake of the crusade, whether or not they want to? Should their lives be sacrificed?

No. They should win.

Firstly, it clearly doesn't. The Qun is not a person that actually makes demands - it's a complex societal web. There is an entire body of qunari that interprets the Qun and its demands. And even for individuals who interpret it themselves, we clearly see it being interpreted in a way that feeds into whatever personal goals the indvidiual has.

Sometimes. Other times, it forces its participants into suicide for briefly not being enslaved, or to commit murder against other members due to losing a material object.

That's not what we're talking about here. You said that the "[t]hey became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone".

The clear implication from your comment is that they are somehow deserving of death - or, alternatively, that you are justified in killing them - because they became qunari, sided with the Arishok, and decided to impose the Qun.

Yes, because of the means of doing so, i.e. trying to kill me, and their not surrendering when battle is joined. If I don't kill them, they will then kill me.

The Mage rebellion was to overthrow the Chantry and the social order of Thedas on the basis of an ideological point: freedom for the mages. Pretending otherwise is just intellectually bankrupt.

Now, obviously we can talk about what ideologues are better, more justified on moral grounds.

Actually, the Chantry is surprisingly accommodating enough to not let the entire social order be upturned; it was entirely the templars' choice to go to war.

Of course she does. From the start, she assumes that Audacity is targeting her. She assumes that by separating herself from the village, she's somehow "protecting" it, because she's moved the demon's target away. She assumes that the Eluvian has value, and that's she's doing great work by preserving her people's culture instead of polishing an archaic trinket.

The Eluvian does have great value, just not to Audacity. I think Merrill overestimated Marethari's strength and her own clan's rationality (veils that are gone from her eyes by the end of A New Path if she's friended).

And there you go! I mean, you're actually proving the point. Look at what you're saying - "she alone" is "actually doing something"? The clear implication is that no one else is - that she's doing some great work the like of which other elves have never seen. It's all self-importance.

I have no idea what elves of other clans are doing, but the Sabrae clan seems to prefer bitter sniping and possible outright murder against its own members, as opposed to doing anything to advance the Dalish cause.

You mean the famous apostate who uses blood magic, is in love with a blood mage

Wait, why in the world would either of those be public knowledge? Being a blood mage would be social suicide, certainly overriding Champion status.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 mai 2013 - 09:46 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Merrill is the biggest failure of a mage we have yet to encounter. She thinks herself so clever, and even powerful enough to interact with the likes of Audacity, but yet she failed spectacularly at defending herself against Wryme.

You're condemning Merrill because of a plot that made every companion betray Hawke, with the sole exception of Anders? The plot where a demon made an offer to a companion, and seconds latter they decided to attempt to murder Hawke in cold blood? That quest made as much sense as Decimus thinking that apostate Hawke and Merrill were templars.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Something supposedly all mages should have learned from the very early stages of their magic. Merrill is a failure.

Merrill proficiently used magic for several years, never abused blood magic, tried to help the People by proactively trying to restore revolutionary technology that could have benefitted elves across the continent, and supported the protagonist in his endeavors. I don't see why you're vilifying Merrill, especially when she is trying to stop the plight of the People. I respect Merrill for what she tried to do. I respect Merrill's proactive attitude over Hawke's passivity.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
An Andrastian city elf state is tolerable but regrettable.

What happened to "Will they too attempt to tear down the Dalish?"

No. They should win.

This dodging is getting annoying, not to mention dishonest. 

But fine. If you happen to agree with Anders' moral view on this point, then there's no moral difference between you and Meredith in launching the Rite of Annulment, other than the factual distinction re: who each person believes the victims and abusers are. 

Sometimes. Other times, it forces its participants into suicide for briefly not being enslaved, or to commit murder against other members due to losing a material object.

Given that Sten willing imprisoned himself for murder, believed that he was guilty of murder, and never actually defending the morality of his choice it's pretty clear that the Qun didn't demand that he freak out and kill everyone around him.

Not to mention, again, that aside from the rhetorical flourish, there's no argument here. At most you can say that the Qun has absolutely barbaric laws against mages - but that isn't proof that that "every last qunari is a slave". 

So we're right back to it: actually provide an argument to show that all the qunari are slaves, or concede the point.

Yes, because of the means of doing so, i.e. trying to kill me, and their not surrendering when battle is joined. If I don't kill them, they will then kill me.

We're right back to dodging. You said that the "[t]hey became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone".

That statement is clearly an indication that you don't think that the elves are morally justified in rising up against their opressors using the Qun, despite your equivalent views on the mages. 

So we're right back to your hypocritical views on the elves. The intellectually bankrupt dodging is getting very frustrating. If you don't want to actually discuss this, we can stop. 

Actually, the Chantry is surprisingly accommodating enough to not let the entire social order be upturned; it was entirely the templars' choice to go to war.

The Chantry's offer was the Circles. The ideology is - no more Circles, and no more templars. What the mages target is "the entirety of Thedas as an ideological point". 

The Eluvian does have great value, just not to Audacity. I think Merrill overestimated Marethari's strength and her own clan's rationality (veils that are gone from her eyes by the end of A New Path if she's friended).

Merill is, again, an idiot. She thinks, again, that she's Audacity's target. And she thinks that she's special or otherwise important for trying to fix the Eluvian, and she's willing to abandon the clan for it.

That's all that Audacity exploits, and that's what makes Merrill so incredibly short-sighted. She can't stop to think what the demon is actually going to use her for. She thinks her value is as a vessel, and she's wrong. 

Anway, I'm done talking about this, since we're not having a conversation. You're not even bothering to respond to what I write. It's like talking to a wall. 

[Tenshi]

funny how 80% of ppl still support mages only because of *COOL MAGIC* and because templars are religious.
stop lying to yourself... 90% of mages we met in-game were ****bags including emo child merill and manipulative ***** morrigan.

[Xilizhra]

[quote]What happened to "Will they too attempt to tear down the Dalish?"[/quote]
Well, if they try, then they quickly lose that quality.

[quote]But fine. If you happen to agree with Anders' moral view on this point, then there's no moral difference between you and Meredith in launching the Rite of Annulment, other than the factual distinction re: who each person believes the victims and abusers are. [/quote]
To clarify: I believe that his specific action there was a bad idea and unnecessarily risked the lives of Kirkwall's mages in its execution, but I do agree that resistance against the templars is necessary.

[quote]Given that Sten willing imprisoned himself for murder, believed that he was guilty of murder, and never actually defending the morality of his choice it's pretty clear that the Qun didn't demand that he freak out and kill everyone around him.

Not to mention, again, that aside from the rhetorical flourish, there's no argument here. At most you can say that the Qun has absolutely barbaric laws against mages - but that isn't proof that that "every last qunari is a slave".

So we're right back to it: actually provide an argument to show that all the qunari are slaves, or concede the point.[/quote]
I was referring to the antaam being forced to kill Sten if he returned.

[quote]We're right back to dodging. You said that the "[t]hey became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone".

That statement is clearly an indication that you don't think that the elves are morally justified in rising up against their opressors using the Qun, despite your equivalent views on the mages.

So we're right back to your hypocritical views on the elves. The intellectually bankrupt dodging is getting very frustrating. If you don't want to actually discuss this, we can stop. [/quote]We're right back to dodging. You said that the "[t]hey became Qunari. They sided with the Arishok. They wanted to take over Kirkwall and impose the barbaric Qun on everyone".

That statement is clearly an indication that you don't think that the elves are morally justified in rising up against their opressors using the Qun, despite your equivalent views on the mages.

So we're right back to your hypocritical views on the elves. The intellectually bankrupt dodging is getting very frustrating. If you don't want to actually discuss this, we can stop. [/quote]
No, they're not. They're not only attacking their oppressors, but their own people. It's not for the elves, but for those who choose to join the Qun; those who don't will be ground down just like the oppressors in question.

[quote]The Chantry's offer was the Circles. The ideology is - no more Circles, and no more templars. What the mages target is "the entirety of Thedas as an ideological point". [/quote]
No, the Chantry was unwilling to start a war because of the mages seceding. Evidently, the Chantry wasn't willing to sacrifice Thedas' stability based on that, and the mages didn't need to target it. It was the templars who pushed the issue.

[quote]Merill is, again, an idiot. She thinks, again, that she's Audacity's target. And she thinks that she's special or otherwise important for trying to fix the Eluvian, and she's willing to abandon the clan for it.

That's all that Audacity exploits, and that's what makes Merrill so incredibly short-sighted. She can't stop to think what the demon is actually going to use her for. She thinks her value is as a vessel, and she's wrong.

Anway, I'm done talking about this, since we're not having a conversation. You're not even bothering to respond to what I write. It's like talking to a wall. [/quote]
As you like.