731 réponses à ce sujet

[Solmanian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

using blood magic isn't evil. The Grey Warden mages have also used blood magic.

The wardens use as a "end justifies the means", not because they think it's not morally reprehensible. It's in the same way that some countries treat WMD's (which is still wrong 99.99% of the times).

[Xilizhra]

Moral failing, no. Weakness, yes. I feel like even in supporting a degree of mage freedom myself, I would want not to brook any kind of permissiveness for this or else it discredits everything I say about how mages can be trusted with the power they have. Either I am admitting either there are powers so great no mages can resist and so we just have to accept abominations wiping out towns every now and then, or that even mages who have supposedly properly trained their willpower to resist demons will occasionally succumb like an untrained mundane.

Dreamers are ultra-rare, and the degree of power demons would gain by tapping into their nightmares is equally rare. Especially if you can spot a dreamer before they reach the dangerous stage, so that they can be trained. It's an issue, but one that can be worked around.

[LobselVith8]

Solmanian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

using blood magic isn't evil. The Grey Warden mages have also used blood magic.

The wardens use as a "end justifies the means", not because they think it's not morally reprehensible. It's in the same way that some countries treat WMD's (which is still wrong 99.99% of the times).

Blood magic isn't evil. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. The phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian was blood magic. It's also the only form of magic that templars can't nullify, which is useful for the mages who don't want to live in subjugation to the templars or the Chantry.

[Hazegurl]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

Trying....to ...resist...the power...of the mage....debate.....Oh well. [/quote]

We don't have to discuss it if you'd prefer.
[/quote]

No need to worry. I know when to hop off the merry go round.



[quote]The mages made a democratic vote for autonomy.....[/quote]

Doesn't make their methods any less retarded. I think their methods to freedom was discussed in another thread already. So I'll just say that I disagree with your opinion and stick with my own from that thread.


[quote]However, that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore scenarios where mages simply don't make any sense. Decimus shouldn't have thought Hawke and his moiety crew were templars, especially with Merrill among his company. Tahrone looked like a crack addict and sounded like a raving lunatic, making it unrealistic that anyone would follow her. Grace made no sense when she wanted to exact revenge on Hawke for helping her, to the point of killing templars to protect her and her fellow Starkhaven mages.[/quote]

Why would Decimus believe you when he knew the exits were guarded by Templars thus a Templar let you in. I doubt he thought Hawke was a Templar but seriously, you got a free pass to come in that cave by a Templar who was tracking them down. It makes sense that he would shoot first and ask questions later. And why would be trust you cause you got Merrill? He doesn't know her and for all he knows she could be hired help.

Grace was a nagging whiner who blames Hawke for her getting caught again which only shows how dumb and sheltered she is and she doesn't kill her Starkhaven mages, they were in the back helping her out. Is it odd for mages like Quentin to exist? the imperium is full of dudes like him. And I don't recall actually having to do a spell to learn how it works so Orsino knowing that blood magic spell makes sense. You got to learn it to do it!


[quote]Meredith was murdering civilians with her death squad in broad daylight, [/quote]

Please post a vid to that cause I am missing some major content in my game then. not being sarcastic here, I really never saw that and you mention it more than once so I want to know where it occurs. Are there npcs talking about it or something? Cause poo on the devs for only having something like that talked about but never shown.

 [quote]The Divine and the Seekers of Truth did nothing about this for years. Even Leliana was willing to blame a small faction we only encounter once, instead of the despot who was causing unrest among the different groups living in Kirkwall.[/quote]

 Those mages have been trying to seize power long before Meredith became Viscount and yes Leliana should focus on the people who eavesdrop on secret government meetings, sneak into the Viscount throne room at night, and try to assassinate officals. To say they should not focus on them is to say that no one should have focused on John Wilkes Booth and his co-conspirators.

[quote]Those nobles exist in your world; they simply don't approach you because you support a despot. Just like the templars exist in the world of my pro-mage apostate Hawke.[/quote]

Oh I love it how you claim certain nobles exist in my gameplay world yet don't want to proclaim that there must also be nobles who agree with Meredith in yours. Instead you'll just say that Templars exist in your game world because only Templars agree with Meredith and everyone in your game world is 100% on your side and that can never happen in a game world you don't agree with. :innocent:

[quote]No one is inventing the issues they have with Meredith's dictatorship.[/quote]

Oh please show me Meredith's n*zi death camp gas chambers. 

[quote]"I let word slip that an agent of the Divine was coming to investigate the mage troubles". - Sister Nightingale

You were saying something about a secret meeting...?[/quote]

It's still a secret meeting taking place in a locked room that they weren't invited to and I don't believe the invite said "Bring your intent to kill" on it.

I guess if you overheard a complete stranger arrange a club meeting you'll automatically assume that the secret is out and you were invited.

[quote]You pretty much ignore every point I make in explaining why I think Cullen is hardly any better than Meredith. Your point also handwaves the fact that Cullen stood by while hundreds of men, women, and children were being killed because Meredith condemned them for the actions of one man. I guess you could argue that he was just "following orders".[/quote]

I didn't ignore your point. I disagreed with you and stated why I feel Cullen is a better alternative than her. Cullen was there for the RoA and yes following orders but he alone spoke out against her and stated that the RoA is only for Circles that cannot be saved. He understands why the RoA exist and even though he hates mages he proved that he still would not abuse such power. He uncovered a mage plot to plant demons in Templars, he addressed concerns about Meredith to Hawke. I always headcanon my Viscount Hawke giving him Meredith's position.  You don't have to agree with that as you're not playing my game.

[quote]Racist? That must explain Merrill being in a romance with my human Hawke,[/quote]

Racists bang people outside their race too. And yes her comments about calling Fenyrial a half breed and wondering why Marethari would even help him is racist.  In the rival path, if you keep her stupid little tool from her she will let you know just what she thinks of human Hawke. Merrill didn't care at all about me shoving a knife in Ander's back, Varric is a dwarf not a human, and Isabela gets along with everyone.

[quote]...not to mention she also doesn't want Fenris enslaved, despite the fact that he has also treated her monstrously for several years.[/quote]

Fenris is an Elf so how does that prove she isn't racist?

[quote]You seem to continue making comments that are easily disproven by the actual game. You might want to avoid that if you respond to this message. Just a suggestion.[/quote]

LOL!!! you are surely the one to talk. Perhaps you need to play more than just a mage Hawke who loves mages and romances Merrill.

[quote]Audacity is sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem. It can't harm anyone, unless it is released. You do realize this is pointed out in the short story as well, right? And I'm not sure how Marethari protected Merrill when she released Audacity, became an abomination, and tried to kill her.[/quote]

There is no such thing as a harmless and safe demon, even one that is trapped, period. If Merrill was so sure of that she wouldn't  have asked Hawke to come and put her down if something went wrong. Why is Merrill afriad for...according to you...no reason at all?


[quote]I don't think the mages are stupid simply because they chose a life of freedom over one of servitude....[/quote]

And the point flies right over head. Mages are not stupid for wanting freedom, sweetheart. They are stupid because they chose a dumb way to get it.


[quote]I killed Qunari who threatened everyone. Elves, humans, dwarves. It doesn't matter that some of those Qunari were also elves.[/quote]

Good. And I kill Mages and Qunari who threaten everyone. Regardless of their reasons for why they are doing what they are doing.

[quote]No, it doesn't make any sense. I already explained how the situations are completely different.[/quote]

And I disagree with you. The city guards were coming for those elves and demanded they be handed over, most likely to not recieve a fair trial if one at all and probably face imprisonment or execution. The Arishok protected them and had enough of the crap that was Kirkwall and demanded that things be the way he wants them to be. The mages were facing execution and fought to protect themselves and now their leader's actions will cause a war and why? Because they had enough of the crap that is the chantry and are now demanding that things be the way they want it to be. Yep sounds about similar to me with slight differences here and there.

[quote]You realize the Alienage elves would have suffered under the Qunari as well, right? The horror stories about the people who refused to convert to the Qun? That's what makes your argument so absurd.[/quote]

Those elves that joined the Qun seemed to have no problem being where they are. If the others made a mistake etc oh well. I never once argued that the Qun was wonderful. But about how those city elves joined  to help take down Kirkwall because of the rampant abuses they were suffering within the alienages and how you don't care cause they aren't mages.

[quote]While Meredith's templars are killing hundreds of men, women, and children because that is precisely what she ordered. You saved three mages who will likely be made tranquil.[/quote]

My Hawke is Viscount with Cullen as Knight Captain. So no those mages won't be made Tranquil. Don't try and play headcanon on my game.  Just stick to imagining all the mages Varric claims were saved during your promage playthrough but were never actually shown.

[quote]They were following orders by murdering an entire population of innocent people.[/quote]

[Hazegurl]

Plaintiff wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're condemning Merrill because of a plot that made every companion betray Hawke, with the sole exception of Anders? The plot where a demon made an offer to a companion, and seconds latter they decided to attempt to murder Hawke in cold blood? That quest made as much sense as Decimus thinking that apostate Hawke and Merrill were templars.

You can scream plot if you like but just look at DAO. Sten was strong enough not to fall prey inside the Fade and Morrigan swat away demons like they are just pesky flies. Anders/Justice does not betray you in DA2. So if Merrill is written to betray you in the fade it is because she fails as the great trickster of demons people claims she is.

By this logic, are we also saying that Wynne is naive and retarded?

If Wynne were dabbling with demons and making deals with them then yes she is.

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

The Qun doesn't involve beatens,

Isabela was beaten and tortured by a Qunari for refusing to submit to their demands, so that's a big fat lie.

Maybe Qunari don't beat other Qunari, but what does that prove? That they favour their own? So what? Bullies don't beat up their lackeys, but that doesn't make them good people in any respect.

rape,

Unless you count their forced breeding programs.

poverty, disease,

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, I'm sure that all poverty and disease just cease to be problems when you join the Qun.

racial segregation, actual outright racism and racial slurs,

It engages in all those things towards people who don't join its super-special secret club.

Judging a club on the preferential treatment it gives its own members does not give you a proper overview of whether or not it is a good organisation.

a completely denial of all basic social institutions like the courts or the police...

Who needs police when even the most minor of offenses will see you mindraped and placed in forced labour?

The Qunari are, absolutely, a totalitarian society. But they're leaps and bounds above what the CEs experienced in Kirkwall on their best days.

No. The Qun inflicts an entirely different kind of horror and torment on its adherents, but that doesn't make it better.

The fact that they're an expansionist culture doesn't mean that their going to be a worse deal for the elves.

It's a worse deal for everybody.

As you saw pretty clearly in Kirkwall, if anything the elves are going to side with them because they're getting a better deal by converting to the Qun.

As I saw pretty clearly in Kirkwall, plenty of elves didn't want to join and in fact tried to actively resist the conversion of their brethren.

That's just dishonest, given your gleeful support that all of the mages in Kirkwall who wouldn't rise up with Anders deserved to die (or worse).

I said they deserve anything bad that happens to them. I did not say "I will murder every mage who doesn't enlist, and laugh while doing it". I simply won't protect them when the Templars come calling. If you won't fight for the group, then you don't deserve the benefits of being a member. I have no patience whatsoever for individuals within a disenfranchised minority who would bargain with their oppressors and sell their community up the river in order to make selfish gains for their own personal security.

But what I think those individuals deserve is irrelevent, and has nothing to do with the honesty of my statement. Prove that the mages are killing individuals who refuse to fight, if you're going to accuse me of being dishonest, because that was the claim, and what I believe cowardly traitors deserve has no relevance to the actual reality of what the mages are doing.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 mai 2013 - 04:02 .

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Sten and Morrigan don't try to kill The Warden because a demon offered them something a few seconds prior, unlike the asinine plot of "Night Terrors" that makes no sense.

No, Sten and Morrigan are resistant to the trick the demon is playing on them. They have shown not to be influenced by the demons in the fade. Yet Merrill was influenced. Or are you arguing that Merrill wasn't influenced and betrayed Hawke of sound mind?

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...
And why is that? Why do the Dalish come to mind, when both peoples are elves?

Because both groups being members of the same species would totally trump the fact that they adhere to totally different religions that fundamentally oppose each other, just like in real li-oh wait.

The other mages are in the exact same situation as the mages in Kirkwall. They're either going to have to fight, or die. It's the same issue. They're being forced to fight a war they don't want at the impentus of other people who think they are entitled to decide whether they should live or die for some Grand Cause.

Congratulations. You just discovered how every single war in the history of ever has ever worked.

Fionna isn't Anders, but she's perfectly willing to sacrfice lives for what she believes in. So I'm asking you whether you think it's morally justified for one person to decree whether others should live or die for the sake of a cause. Because after that, all that we're doing is quibbling about the cause.

Unless you believe that the right to declare war is contingent on what the war is about.

Exactly - the majority already made that choice for them.

Why do you hate democaracy, In Exile?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 05 mai 2013 - 04:04 .

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

Why do you hate democaracy, In Exile?

Democratic majorities can also be tyrannical, and this is the biggest decision in the history of the College of Magi.

"[...]tolerance is extended to policies, conditions, and modes of behavior which should not be tolerated because they are impeding, if not destroying, the chances of creating an existence without fear and misery. [...] This sort of tolerance strengthens the tyranny of the majority against which authentic liberals protested."

And the Enchanter who cast the deciding vote for separation had just left the Libertarians to become the Aequitarian leader the day of the decision. The Aequitarians seemed like they were split down the middle on the issue and a very recent ex-Libertarin is for speaking for all of them? That's something to cast aspersions on.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 05 mai 2013 - 04:21 .

[Plaintiff]

Filament wrote...

There are very good reasons to hate pure democracy. What a silly rhetorical ploy.

I was being facetious.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...
Exactly - the majority already made that choice for them.

Should the mages in favor of independence have been morally obligated to wait until they had a literal unanimous vote in favor of separation?  This would almost certainly have prevented them from ever having the option to break free.  Sure, the minority who didn't want to separate got screwed, but the majority rule in this case seems a deal fairer than expecting that mages who wanted freedom had to wait till they had 100% support from every other voting individual.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 mai 2013 - 04:27 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Faerunner wrote...

 For crying out loud, will the rest of the Dragon Age franchise focus on nothing but mages' and templars' on-going struggle over who can be the most heinous and destructive?

Well they did admit they went overboard with the insane blood-mage thing in DA2, so hopefully we'll be seeing less "crazy loon" power grabbing mages and murdering rapists with the Templars. I hope we'll see more grounded examples and less full-tilt nutters. As is, it got to the point in DA2 where I wanted Hawke to say "Screw this I'm outta here" since everyone was just mad in the end.

But the whole civil war thing in Orlais and the Qunari invasion will most likely play a role, so hopefully it won't be solely focuses on mages/templars and their rampant acts of stupidity.

[Heimdall]

Faerunner wrote...

 For crying out loud, will the rest of the Dragon Age franchise focus on nothing but mages' and templars' on-going struggle over who can be the most heinous and destructive?

Here's to hoping that the Mage issue drops out of the limelight after DA:I.  We could all use a breather.

[EdwinLi]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

 For crying out loud, will the rest of the Dragon Age franchise focus on nothing but mages' and templars' on-going struggle over who can be the most heinous and destructive?

Here's to hoping that the Mage issue drops out of the limelight after DA:I.  We could all use a breather.

Only way for that to happen is if DA4 takes place 80 years later after DA3 so all the original characters and other people involved in the Mage vs Templar conflicts are dead and all imported data are just codexs about how the land we go to became what it is through our characters actions..

Modifié par EdwinLi, 05 mai 2013 - 06:03 .

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Exactly - the majority already made that choice for them.

Should the mages in favor of independence have been morally obligated to wait until they had a literal unanimous vote in favor of separation?  This would almost certainly have prevented them from ever having the option to break free.  Sure, the minority who didn't want to separate got screwed, but the majority rule in this case seems a deal fairer than expecting that mages who wanted freedom had to wait till they had 100% support from every other voting individual.

Haven't you heard, Silfren? If you just sit in a corner and don't bother anybody, equal rights will just be given to you.

Eventually.

Maybe.

If we feel like it.

[Lobos1988]

well,... as much as I enjoy magic and my character being a mage, I really hate that all the mages in the game have to be whiny whimps... the evil ones always say thery're soooo sorry for what they did and the good ones always whine about their live... that's why I kill them all ^^

[BouncyFrag]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

 For crying out loud, will the rest of the Dragon Age franchise focus on nothing but mages' and templars' on-going struggle over who can be the most heinous and destructive?

Here's to hoping that the Mage issue drops out of the limelight after DA:I.  We could all use a breather.

Hows about Mages vs Templars multiplayer deathmatch and let them settle it on the field? I'm usually not a big fan of PvP multiplayer, but I'd be more than happy to make this exception.
*plays lets get ready to rumbleeee...*

[KiwiQuiche]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Exactly - the majority already made that choice for them.

Should the mages in favor of independence have been morally obligated to wait until they had a literal unanimous vote in favor of separation?  This would almost certainly have prevented them from ever having the option to break free.  Sure, the minority who didn't want to separate got screwed, but the majority rule in this case seems a deal fairer than expecting that mages who wanted freedom had to wait till they had 100% support from every other voting individual.

Haven't you heard, Silfren? If you just sit in a corner and don't bother anybody, equal rights will just be given to you.

Eventually.

Maybe.

If we feel like it.

+1

[Heimdall]

EdwinLi wrote...

Only way for that to happen is if DA4 takes place 80 years later after DA3 so all the original characters and other people involved in the Mage vs Templar conflicts are dead and all imported data are just codexs about how the land we go to became what it is through our characters actions..

Nope, it would just need to have a main plot unrelated to the Mage conflict.  Then move it to some far flung bit of Thedas we haven't explored yet and wasn't a huge factor in the war.

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Exactly - the majority already made that choice for them.

Should the mages in favor of independence have been morally obligated to wait until they had a literal unanimous vote in favor of separation?  This would almost certainly have prevented them from ever having the option to break free.  Sure, the minority who didn't want to separate got screwed, but the majority rule in this case seems a deal fairer than expecting that mages who wanted freedom had to wait till they had 100% support from every other voting individual.

Haven't you heard, Silfren? If you just sit in a corner and don't bother anybody, equal rights will just be given to you. Eventually. Maybe. If we feel like it.

Some of us actually have an alternative plan for the Magi worth considering before resulting to open war.

[Plaintiff]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Exactly - the majority already made that choice for them.

Should the mages in favor of independence have been morally obligated to wait until they had a literal unanimous vote in favor of separation?  This would almost certainly have prevented them from ever having the option to break free.  Sure, the minority who didn't want to separate got screwed, but the majority rule in this case seems a deal fairer than expecting that mages who wanted freedom had to wait till they had 100% support from every other voting individual.

Haven't you heard, Silfren? If you just sit in a corner and don't bother anybody, equal rights will just be given to you. Eventually. Maybe. If we feel like it.

Some of us actually have an alternative plan for the Magi worth considering before resulting to open war.

How very nice for you. Maybe you can enact it in a fanfiction about an alternate Thedas where the Templars are not overzealous, uncompromising bigots.