322 réponses à ce sujet

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Then use quotation marks.
Yet citizen elves in Tevinter are equal to citizen humans. The difference lies on the chantry nations. Tevinter and the Qunari do not share that mentality.

Tevinter is the very nation that extablished elves as the slave class of the empire. While, in theory, magical elves can improve their lot, the free men and women of Tevinter; mages and non-mages; are overwhelmingly human. And yes, that's in the book.
Therefore, elves and humans are as much equal in Tevinter as they are in any other Andrastian nation. Thecnically, there is not a single law diferentiating humans and elves. But there is an overwhelming pro-human bias.

Wrong. They conquered the elves and made them slaves. They didn't make the race elf a slave race, there is a difference. Of course they are overwhelmingly human, Tevinter is a human nation. The slaves have to win their citizenship.
We can observe that's not true in chantry nations.
Even if there are no laws about it the mentality persists.

"pro-human bias"

If you're referring to Tevinter, I ask for proof.

The chantry is not just a religion, it has great power. It is comparable to Islamic nations irl. So of course I'm going to drop every "social ill" chantry nations suffer on the chantry's doorstep.

it's not the Chantry's fault that there are racist people. Also, it's not the Chantry's obligation to manage the infrastructure of an alienage, for instance. That falls upon the King.

That's debatable. It's also not the chantry's obligation to convert people and opress mages, yet they still do it.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 08:46 .

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Wrong. They conquered the elves and made them slaves. They didn't make the race elf a slave race, there is a difference.

Actually, they did.
But after the Imperium converted to Andrastianism, they released the slaves with most of the elves heading to the Dales which means there is now less of a difference between the number of elven slaves and human than there was a millenia ago.

Of course they are overwhelmingly human, Tevinter is a human nation. The slaves have to win their citizenship.
We can observe that's not true in chantry nations.

Because elves are already born with a citizenship.

If you're referring to Tevinter, I ask for proof.

The population of citizens is overwhelmingly human while the population of slaves mostly consists of elves. The top of Tevinter hierarchy, the Altus, is only acessible to humans; more specifically, descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter.

That's debatable. It's also not the chantry's obligation to convert people and opress mages, yet they still do it.

Yes, it is. That's what they believe in, anyway.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 09:00 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...
Actually, they did.
But after the Imperium converted to Andrastianism, they released the slaves with most of the elves heading to the Dales which means there is now less of a difference between the number of elven slaves and human than there was a millenia ago.

Actually they didn't.
And? How does that disprove my point?

Because elves are already born with a citizenship.

Yet they are treated as second class citizens.

The population of citizens is overwhelmingly human while the population of slaves mostly consists of elves. The top of Tevinter hierarchy, the Altus, is only acessible to humans; more specifically, descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter.

Like I said that is because slaves have to win their citizenship, few manage to do it. Then that's a "descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter" bias. Not a human bias.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 09:12 .

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Actually they didn't.
And? How does that disprove my point?

The elves were a slave race before Andraste. But after the empirium freed them after converting; Andrastianism freed the slaves, eh; they became short on manpower hence why there are more human slaves in the Dragon Age.

Yet they are treated as second class citizens.

Which sucks but still better than slavery.

Like I said that is because elves have to win their citizenship, few manage to do it. Then that's a "descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter" bias. Not a human bias.

If the standard condition for elves is "slaves", then there is clearly a pro-human bias.

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

The elves were a slave race before Andraste. But after the empirium freed them after converting; Andrastianism freed the slaves, eh; they became short on manpower hence why there are more human slaves in the Dragon Age.

And? It still doesn't make the elves a slave race. Not to mention that it doesn't disprove that elves could win their citizenship.

Which sucks but still better than slavery.

True, but that's not the point. Elven citizens aren't second class citizens in Tevinter. That's my point.

If the standard condition for elves is "slaves", then there is clearly a pro-human bias.

Like I said that is because slaves have to win their citizenship, few manage to do it.

Made a mistake.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 09:38 .

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
True, but that's not the point. Elven citizens aren't second class citizens in Tevinter. That's my point.

Yes, yes they are.
We can go around in circles but the truth is most elves are slaves while the free population is overwhelmingly human, even if there are human and mage slaves. If it's a human nation where the elven standard position in life is "slave" with a lucky few being freed and still not being considered citizens, then the pro-human bias is evident.
There are two different echelons of free non-mages in Tevinter; soporati; who are citizens and overwhelmingly human; and liberati, who are not citizens. No one who used to be a slave can ever be a citizen in Tevinter if they aren't a mage.
The highest echelons of Tevinter society are also reserved for humans.

There also aren't laws specifically written against elves in Southern Thedas but that doesn't mean there isn't a pro-human bias.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 10:03 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
True, but that's not the point. Elven citizens aren't second class citizens in Tevinter. That's my point.

Yes, yes they are.
We can go around in circles but the truth is most elves are slaves while the free population is overwhelmingly human, even if there are human and mage slaves. If it's a human nation where the elven standard position in life is "slave" with a lucky few being freed and still not being considered citizens, then the pro-human bias is evident.
There are two different echelons of free non-mages in Tevinter; soporati; who are citizens and overwhelmingly human; and liberati, who are not citizens. No one who used to be a slave can ever be a citizen in Tevinter if they aren't a mage.
The highest echelons of Tevinter society are also reserved for humans.

There also aren't laws specifically written against elves in Southern Thedas but that doesn't mean there isn't a pro-human bias.

*sigh* I'm starting to hate the "World of Thedas" book, the information should be accessible by anyone. Still we don't know how the non-mage liberati are treated. At least the elven mages are above soporati and liberati. The same thing can't be said about the chantry nations, there every elf is the liberati comparative. I'm still not seeing the pro human bias in Tevinter though. You said it yourself why the highest echelons of Tevinter are reserved for humans only, that's not pro human bias.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 10:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait... So that only a human can become Archon, and never an Elf, solely because of his race, is not pro-human bias??....

[Noctis Augustus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

Then commoners in chantry nations are also second class citizens. Just because "nobility" is reserved for mages that doesn't mean non-mages are second class citizens.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait... So that only a human can become Archon, and never an Elf, solely because of his race, is not pro-human bias??....

No that's a different type of bias. Only the "descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter" can rule it seems.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 10:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Commoners ARE second class citizens in a feudal system....

Then it is a pro-HUMAN-mage bias... Much better...

[Noctis Augustus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Commoners ARE second class citizens in a feudal system....

Then it is a pro-HUMAN-mage bias... Much better...

Then elves are third class citizens in chantry nations. And non-mages are second class citizens in Tevinter. Better?

No. It's pro-"descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter" bias.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah. They are probably even lower in Tevinter, unless they possess magical talent.

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
No that's a different type of bias. Only the "descendants of the first Dreamers who ruled the human tribes before there was a Tevinter" can rule it seems.

It's not that simple. There are two classes of mages in Tevinter beyond enslaved mages. There's the Laetans who are mages born to either non-mage families or to mage families but who can't trace their ancestry to a Dreamer. And then there are the Altus who stand at the top of Tevinter society and are said to be descendants from the first Dreamers who spoke to Dumat, which also means they are human 100% of the time.

The Archon can be either an Altus or Laetan but given the fact Tevinter culture associates magic with divinity, two out of three times, the Archon will be an Altus. Then there is the Magisterium which is the imperial senate and is open to Altus and Laetans as well as several position of authority within the Imperial Chantry which are also reserved for the mages.

After Andraste, all of these positions were also open to non-mages but the mages slowly took power back and extablished themselves as the ruling class again which was to be expected. Let it be a lesson to Southern Thedas.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 11:08 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

[MisterJB]

But if a mage is freed, that mage can join a Circle and become Laetan which makes him or her elligible for the Imperial Chantry, the Magisterium and even the Archon.
A non-mage Liberati; which means former slave; will never be considered an imperial citizen.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 11:17 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

So? Last I checked only the ones with magical talents ever rose to positions of power in Tevinter.

[Noctis Augustus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

I think he was referring to non-slaves.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 11:18 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

But if a mage is freed, that mage can join a Circle and become Laetan which makes him or her elligible for the Imperial Chantry, the Magisterium and even the Archon.
A non-mage Liberati; which means former slave; will never be considered an imperial citizen.

But their offspring on the other hand...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

So? Last I checked only the ones with magical talents ever rose to positions of power in Tevinter.

So?

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 11:20 .

[Legbiter]

Either the mages go back into their respective Circles and are managed by the Templars, or they all get killed most painfully out of hand.

DA II really drove the above point in.

[LobselVith8]

Legbiter wrote...

Either the mages go back into their respective Circles and are managed by the Templars, or they all get killed most painfully out of hand.

DA II really drove the above point in.

I didn't get that message. I recall many mage survivors surviving an attempt at genocide and my protagonist slaughtering many templars. I also recall Queen Anora publicly agreeing with my Hero of Ferelden that mages earned the right to govern themselves, and her husband, King Alistair, advocates this as well.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

The ones in Lothering were mostly human, and what would one blind unarmed templar gain from harassing an angry community of elves?

He has an arrangement with Irving. In exchange, Irving doesn't put up a fight when Greagoir rapes/kills his people on a day-to-day level.

Ask the person you were actually arguing with about that.

Uh huh.  Changing your arguments now? He's not unarmed.

You have no evidence of Gregoir killing anyone but Darkspawn and apostates, there is no evidence, nor is it ever hinted at, that Gregoir rapes people.  The worst you have is from a comic that very few people have heard of or read. 

You decided to respond, making that person you.

[Xilizhra]

Uh huh. Changing your arguments now? He's not unarmed.

I don't ever recall him fighting, but he still wouldn't have a chance against the whole Alienage.

You have no evidence of Gregoir killing anyone but Darkspawn and apostates, there is no evidence, nor is it ever hinted at, that Gregoir rapes people. The worst you have is from a comic that very few people have heard of or read.

Killing apostates is pretty damned bad, and he tried to both mindrape and kill Jowan. In addition to trying to imprison Lily in Ultra-Guantanamo.

[LobselVith8]

ibbikiookami wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anyone who doesn't posses magical talents are second class citizens in Tevinter...

Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike.

I think he was referring to non-slaves.

I thought it was important to bring up the fact that even mages can be enslaved in Tevinter, because even mages can be oppressed in the Imperium. It's not as though only non-mages are the ones who don't benefit living under the Imperial Chantry. Although I suppose an argument could be made that elven mages can rise up in the social ranks, as Fenris' sister Varania would illustrate.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Killing apostates is pretty damned bad, and he tried to both mindrape and kill Jowan. In addition to trying to imprison Lily in Ultra-Guantanamo.

Wait, what? Not to mention that he didn't want to imprison Lilly. That was all Irving's (rather clever) plot to strike at the Chantry and force them to admit that their own members are feeble and corruptible like anyone else. 

Not to mention that it was clealry implied by Irving that he left books on blood mages out to lure and eliminate dangerous elements in the Circle.