322 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Killing apostates is pretty damned bad, and he tried to both mindrape and kill Jowan. In addition to trying to imprison Lily in Ultra-Guantanamo.

Wait, what? Not to mention that he didn't want to imprison Lilly. That was all Irving's (rather clever) plot to strike at the Chantry and force them to admit that their own members are feeble and corruptible like anyone else. 

Not to mention that it was clealry implied by Irving that he left books on blood mages out to lure and eliminate dangerous elements in the Circle.

Yes. Irving's an utter bastard who preys on his own students, luring them into traps so Greagoir can mindrape or kill them. It's no wonder he's inclined to want Irving to stick around; the next First Enchanter might have a spine.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't ever recall him fighting, but he still wouldn't have a chance against the whole Alienage.

Killing apostates is pretty damned bad, and he tried to both mindrape and kill Jowan. In addition to trying to imprison Lily in Ultra-Guantanamo.

Elves are unarmed in Alienages. A single trained warrior with heavy armor and a sword would do quite a lot of damage and City Elves rarely appear to do anything about it, if the CE Origin is any indication.

He tried to enforce the rite of tranquility on Jowan because Jowan was a blood mage. And then Jowan goes off to poison an Arl and either teach or leave out his books with enough information for an untrained young mage to summon a Desire Demon.

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. Irving's an utter bastard who preys on his own students, luring them into traps so Greagoir can mindrape or kill them. It's no wonder he's inclined to want Irving to stick around; the next First Enchanter might have a spine.

You have said an enormous amount of wrong things before, but I think this one is very close to taking the cake. Irving kept the peace between Templar and Mage, even when one was intentionally provoking the other. His mistake was listening to Uldred (no doubt a hero of yours).

But heaven forbid that Irving or Gregoire do their respective jobs and keep the Circle clear of blood magic.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes. Irving's an utter bastard who preys on his own students, luring them into traps so Greagoir can mindrape or kill them.

Where does the mindrape come in? That's what I'm confused about. 

I think Irving does what's necessary to prevent an ROA in Ferelden. Without an outright and open rebellion like we see post-Kirkwall, there isn't very much that Irving could do by himself. He's very amoral, but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't an effective leader in protecting the mages in Ferelden.

All that we've seen is that Irving leaves out forbidden books for students too stupid to breathe, like Jowan, to read. Hell, if Irving was planning a rebellion by himself, he probably should do the exact same thing. 

It wouldn't even constitute entrapment in our legal system. 

It's no wonder he's inclined to want Irving to stick around; the next First Enchanter might have a spine.

Irving very obviously has a spine. The fact that he plays political games with the lives of mages is proof in the opposite direction. 

Modifié par In Exile, 05 mai 2013 - 10:04 .

[Hazegurl]

Coexistence. I would much rather work together with reasonable people who have a fair and balanced view not a bunch of zealots with a narrow minded view on both sides. My head would just hurt.

If not, I want the option to fuel the war on both sides, let them kill each other, gain support from my own allies and step over the bodies as I plant myself on the throne of a New World Order. Bwhahaha

[The_11thDoctor]

Im for co ex, but Im sure the war will never end because humans have a prob focusing on the matter at hand and starting up more probs than they can handle while their plate is full. Blights, DS, Elves, Ghost/ Spirits, Slavery, World Hunger, etc...

[TK514]

I won't mind putting the mages back in their leper colonies and then smacking the Templars around for helping precipitate the whole mess.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't ever recall him fighting, but he still wouldn't have a chance against the whole Alienage.

Killing apostates is pretty damned bad, and he tried to both mindrape and kill Jowan. In addition to trying to imprison Lily in Ultra-Guantanamo.

Elves are unarmed in Alienages. A single trained warrior with heavy armor and a sword would do quite a lot of damage and City Elves rarely appear to do anything about it, if the CE Origin is any indication.

The City Elf Storyline involved the elves dealing with Vaughan Kendells, who was the Bann of Denerim and son of Arl Urien; he also had armed guards with him when he came to kidnap the women. We also know that the elves can be purged, as we saw with the massacre at their orphanage. The limitations on the elves that keep them relatively powerless are the reason why I would like the opportunity to side with the downtrodden elves, instead of helping either Celene or Gaspard in Orlais.

BlueMagitek wrote...

He tried to enforce the rite of tranquility on Jowan because Jowan was a blood mage. And then Jowan goes off to poison an Arl and either teach or leave out his books with enough information for an untrained young mage to summon a Desire Demon.

Connor was visited by a "bad lady" in his dreams, but he didn't understand that she was a demon. He needed to be properly trained, but Jowan was simply an apprentice. He also poisoned the Arl because Teyrn Loghain - who is viewed as a hero for helping overthrow the Orlesian occupation that enslaved Ferelden for over a century - had told him that Arl Eamon was an enemy. Jowan isn't a monster, and he didn't deserve to be made tranquil. If The Warden releases Jowan, he dedicates his life to protecting refugees from the darkspawn under the identity of 'Master Levyn'.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. Irving's an utter bastard who preys on his own students, luring them into traps so Greagoir can mindrape or kill them. It's no wonder he's inclined to want Irving to stick around; the next First Enchanter might have a spine.

You have said an enormous amount of wrong things before, but I think this one is very close to taking the cake. Irving kept the peace between Templar and Mage, even when one was intentionally provoking the other. His mistake was listening to Uldred (no doubt a hero of yours).

But heaven forbid that Irving or Gregoire do their respective jobs and keep the Circle clear of blood magic.

Of course Xil is wrong; Greagoir's suggestion for the new First Enchanter is Wynne.

As for Irving, he says that it's a matter of survival that he acts the way he does. He didn't want to make Jowan tranquil, and he didn't even know what the evidence was against him. Irving thinks that the Chantry and the templars keep them mages in "shackles", which is why he profusely thanks the Hero of Ferelden for asking for the Circle of Ferelden to be given it's independence. He admits to the protagonist, "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

[Mass Fraud]

As a fan of Spellcasters, I would easily choose number 1.

Modifié par Mass Fraud, 06 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes. Irving's an utter bastard who preys on his own students, luring them into traps so Greagoir can mindrape or kill them.

Where does the mindrape come in? That's what I'm confused about.

I believe Xil is referring to the Rite of Tranquility, which Ser Alrik used to rape mages, and it's the reason Karl wanted to die, as he didn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore.

In Exile wrote...

I think Irving does what's necessary to prevent an ROA in Ferelden. Without an outright and open rebellion like we see post-Kirkwall, there isn't very much that Irving could do by himself. He's very amoral, but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't an effective leader in protecting the mages in Ferelden.

All that we've seen is that Irving leaves out forbidden books for students too stupid to breathe, like Jowan, to read. Hell, if Irving was planning a rebellion by himself, he probably should do the exact same thing. 

It wouldn't even constitute entrapment in our legal system.

I imagine her point is that by leaving those books out, Irving condemned mages like Jowan, instead of working to protect them from a system that can be extremely unfair and lethal towards them.

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's no wonder he's inclined to want Irving to stick around; the next First Enchanter might have a spine. 

Irving very obviously has a spine. The fact that he plays political games with the lives of mages is proof in the opposite direction. 

I think she would prefer for the mages to have a First Enchanter who would stand at their side, instead of one who capitulates to the demands of the templars.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I believe Xil is referring to the Rite of Tranquility, which Ser Alrik used to rape mages, and it's the reason Karl wanted to die, as he didn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore.

Mindrape has a specific meaning, though. See, e.g. the TV tropes link: http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/MindRape

But if you're right, then I still have to ask: how could anyone think that  Gregoire planning to turn Jowan into a tranquil to sexually abuse him!? 

I imagine her point is that by leaving those books out, Irving condemned mages like Jowan, instead of working to protect them from a system that can be extremely unfair and lethal towards them.

Protect them how exactly? Irving wants to remove mages stupid enough to frolic with blood magic in a way that could have the templars murdering the entire circle, and it's a justified worry. There's no power to stand up to the templars that isn't open rebellion, becuase at the end of the day we're talking about jailers who hold the power of life and death.

Jowan was stupid enough to pursue blood magic and get caught. We know that mages can be secretive - it's how Uldred managest to organize both teaching demonology and blood magic. 

I think she would prefer for the mages to have a First Enchanter who would stand at their side, instead of one who capitulates to the demands of the templars.

What exactly was Irving supposed to do? Tell Gregoire no? What would that accomplish? Gregoire could burst in with armed guards and executed Jowan on the spot, and then crack down on the entire Circle. At that point, there had been no mage uprising that was violently crushed and that didn't end with every mage - including the children - dead.

So I'm really curious what this heroic stance would actually involve. 

[Xilizhra]

What exactly was Irving supposed to do? Tell Gregoire no? What would that accomplish? Gregoire could burst in with armed guards and executed Jowan on the spot, and then crack down on the entire Circle. At that point, there had been no mage uprising that was violently crushed and that didn't end with every mage - including the children - dead.

IIRC, in legal terms, the templars can't use the Rite of Tranquility on anyone without the First Enchanter's approval. Would Greagoir break this law, do you think?

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
IIRC, in legal terms, the templars can't use the Rite of Tranquility on anyone without the First Enchanter's approval. Would Greagoir break this law, do you think?

Putting my lawyer hat on for the moment, no law is that rigid. Gregoire, depending on his evidence, could either (justfiiably) have Irving either removed or overruled. 

There would presumably be some mode of adjudication where actual disputes between the First Enchanter (FE) and the Knight Commander (KN) would be ligitated out. Let's assume that this system is actually just, i.e., the adjudicator won't agree with KN just because KN is the Chantry representative. 

At the end of the day, the Circle power structure exists to (at least in part) prevent the spread of blood magic. KN is, in this case, pursuing a legitimate public end which FE is opposing. What Gregoire would have to do is to have justifiable evidence that Jowan was a BM. At some point, Irving's actual opposition is unreasonable, and he would get overruled. All of this turns on whatever standard of evidence the Chantry accepts - which for all we know might be testimony from some # of reliable templar witnesses. 

In practice, this kind of system exists as a counter-balance on the discretionary power of KN to have reasonable outcomes - mage are only made tranquil when both sides agree. But, legally, there would be a process of adjucation and appeal and no one really would have the final say short of some adjudicative body. 

In practice, Gregoire could also just claim that the First Enchanter is fostering blood magic himself and have him removed. 

Put another way, the system exists to stop either FE from hidding all his mage bodies from tranqulity or KN from turning every mage he hates tranquil. But those are for extreme cases on either end. 

Modifié par In Exile, 06 mai 2013 - 03:54 .

[Solmanian]

Templar, mages and darkspawns holding hands singing "We are the world".

P.S.
That's why I chose synthesis on my first playthrough of ME3. Than i wanted to rip my eyes out and scream "What have I done?! I have doomed us all!". Now I choose control. So basically optimal solution is for the inquisitor to be declared as the holy emperor of thedas, and promote "love thy neighbur. Or else!"

Modifié par Solmanian, 06 mai 2013 - 04:44 .

[Homebound]

i think a NEW faction will emerge made up of mages and wardens fighting side by side. the game will end with hawke being the badguy bcuz the player will choose to either massacre 1 to save the other. the final conflict will b to either kill the warden/mage conglomerate to preserve the faction u saved, or step down/die so there can b mage/templar peace.

in seriousness this is how i c it going down.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I believe Xil is referring to the Rite of Tranquility, which Ser Alrik used to rape mages, and it's the reason Karl wanted to die, as he didn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore.

Mindrape has a specific meaning, though. See, e.g. the TV tropes link: http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/MindRape

But if you're right, then I still have to ask: how could anyone think that  Gregoire planning to turn Jowan into a tranquil to sexually abuse him!?

I think Xil's point is that it's a violation of the mind, considering that it dehumanizes people.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I imagine her point is that by leaving those books out, Irving condemned mages like Jowan, instead of working to protect them from a system that can be extremely unfair and lethal towards them.

Protect them how exactly? Irving wants to remove mages stupid enough to frolic with blood magic in a way that could have the templars murdering the entire circle, and it's a justified worry. There's no power to stand up to the templars that isn't open rebellion, becuase at the end of the day we're talking about jailers who hold the power of life and death.

Jowan was stupid enough to pursue blood magic and get caught. We know that mages can be secretive - it's how Uldred managest to organize both teaching demonology and blood magic.

Jowan's potential to become a good man who protects refugees from darkspawn shows me that he isn't a lost cause. And I think Xil is correct about that being the problem with what Irving was doing - all the potential for these mages to become something more is lost by entrapping them in this stupid little scheme.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think she would prefer for the mages to have a First Enchanter who would stand at their side, instead of one who capitulates to the demands of the templars.

What exactly was Irving supposed to do? Tell Gregoire no? What would that accomplish? Gregoire could burst in with armed guards and executed Jowan on the spot, and then crack down on the entire Circle. At that point, there had been no mage uprising that was violently crushed and that didn't end with every mage - including the children - dead.

So I'm really curious what this heroic stance would actually involve. 

Perhaps Irving shouldn't have been spending his time trapping mages like this in the first time, but helping them as best he could while they lived in the Chantry controlled Circle.

[Ieldra]

I would prefer different outcomes for different places, not the one definitive end to the conflict. In any kind of realistic scenario which doesn't amount to "kill them all" or "make them all tranquil", the problem of demonic possession will remain an issue, so mages will continue to present certain risks to the societies they are living in. Different cultures will deal with it in different ways. Possibilities include:

(1) Emigration of all mages to Tevinter. I think that, for all its evils, Tevinter would want abominations as little as any other nation, and they have the means to deal with the problem.

(2) Semi-autonomous circles. Similar to the current system, only with more freedoms for mages and oversight by secular authorities, not by organizations with a tendency to be hostile to mages like the Chantry.

(3) Reinstatement of the current system. For all its flaws, it works to contain the dangers of abominations.

More pro-Templar scenarios are unpleasant to consider.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 mai 2013 - 01:23 .

[Xilizhra]

(2) Semi-autonomous circles. Similar to the current system, only with more freedoms for mages and oversight by secular authorities, not by organizations with a tendency to be hostile to mages like the Chantry.

Could the Circle not just be its own independent organization?

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

(2) Semi-autonomous circles. Similar to the current system, only with more freedoms for mages and oversight by secular authorities, not by organizations with a tendency to be hostile to mages like the Chantry.

Could the Circle not just be its own independent organization?

I suppose the Circle could be extraterritorial. The problem lies in how to deal with infractions committed against people of the surrounding nations. There's a lot of potential for conflict there. Things might be quieter if mages are subject to the same legislation as everyone else, enforced by the same authority.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

(2) Semi-autonomous circles. Similar to the current system, only with more freedoms for mages and oversight by secular authorities, not by organizations with a tendency to be hostile to mages like the Chantry.

Could the Circle not just be its own independent organization?

No and we've covered why thousands of times before.

[Xilizhra]

I suppose the Circle could be extraterritorial. The problem lies in how to deal with infractions committed against people of the surrounding nations. There's a lot of potential for conflict there. Things might be quieter if mages are subject to the same legislation as everyone else, enforced by the same authority.

The trouble is that it wouldn't be the same legislation, it'd probably be an attempt to roll the Chantry's restrictions back in place in several different ways. Diplomatic infractions could be challenging, but national law-enforcement agents who had templar training but could only use it against mages in direct defense of their own citizens might be a way to solve this.

No and we've covered why thousands of times before.

Yes, but never accurately. Additionally, IIRC, the reason for the mage rebellion out of game is because the writers didn't want to just have mages appear in the Circle; that, combined with the fact that a return to the status quo only makes dramatic sense when it's a blatantly evil and destructive force trying to take it out means that the mage rebellion is almost certain to succeed, to some degree at least.

[ReallyRue]

Personally, I'd like to reach a conclusion where the Circle exists sort of like a school/guild or something. Mages register there and are trained, but they aren't forced to stay. The mages train their own to deal with the Quentins of the world, and there are secular templars to assist.

The most important part of it for me is that the Chantry has nothing to do with mages or how their Circles are run. I doubt I'll have an option that's so specific though. If there's a choice it would probably be between making all mages apostates, killing most of them, or shoving them all back into Chantry Circles to continue as before.

[garrusfan1]

EdwinLi wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

relhart wrote...

I'm hoping it's settled by the end of act one, or that at least we move past it and don't have to hear about it anymore.

Uh, I was under the impression that the entriety of DA I would be about the Mage/Templar war.

And I thought it was going to be about Orlais national security.

it will be both. The Issue with Orlais is one of the Issues the Main character must resolve.

The Mage Vs Templar war is another issue he or she has to resolve.

Basically DA:I is about how your Main character saved the world from it self because of how so many people F upped before DA:I which we can read in the books and see in DA2.

Hawke's action starts the Templar Vs Mage War.
Hawke brought a war between Free Marches and Orlais because of his actions in MotA.
Corypheous is free because the Wardens never destroyed him long ago.
and etc.

orlais on the verge of civil war.
hawk didn't start the mage templar war. it was gonna happen eventually and meredith pushed it sooner and anders basically made it where the war would happen no matter what and will not stop easily. anders and meredith are to blame not hawk. also corypheous will likely not show up so.