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[Knight of Dane]

No a good mage victory would mean acceptance by templars and the chantry

[Xilizhra]

Knight of Dane wrote...

No a good mage victory would mean acceptance by templars and the chantry

There can be no coexistence, unless the templars were literally reprogrammed into benevolent guardians.

[Lulupab]

Knight of Dane wrote...

No a good mage victory would mean acceptance by templars and the chantry

That would be coexistance as OP mentioned. And I don't think its quite possible. The chantry will try to limit mages in other ways. As someone once said: "There can be no compromise".

Modifié par Rassler, 01 mai 2013 - 08:37 .

[Gileadan]

I would prefer to end all threats to the common folk of Thedas as permanently as possible, regardless of said threats' allegiance. If I ever get to run the inquisition, all the other factions better get the hell out of my way.

Man, what would I give to not have to choose between plague and cholera again.

[EdwinLi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

No a good mage victory would mean acceptance by templars and the chantry

There can be no coexistence, unless the templars were literally reprogrammed into benevolent guardians.

Well there was Thrask but he is dead now.

If more Templars were like Thrask than things wouldn't have ended up like they are now. 

Also, the old Circle failed in teaching the policy "Magic is to serve man, not rule them". The Templars and Chantry ended up turing Magic into something that rule the people not by being used through mages but by being used through the Fear of Mages. 

The Chantry ended up teaching people and mages that Magic should be feared which is what turned Magic into a tool of fear for the Chantry and Templars to use to rule. They went against that saying and ignored what they were becoming because of how they used the fear of Magic to keep their power.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 01 mai 2013 - 08:59 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Rassler wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't see a successful mage victory concept without Anders presence.

I don't see a successful Mage victory concept WITH the presence of a terrorist.
 

Well a good mage victory concept would mean total defeat of templars and chantry and if that happens a person who blew up a chantry is NOT a terrorist but a hero. 

Let me put it this way... the ending to DA3 will be the same, no matter who you side with. Sure, there will be come flavors of things that are varied because you chose X instead of Y, but the story will be at the same place, regardless.

DA4 is not going to entertain the idea where Mages are locked up by Templars in one Imported Save and where the Templar order is completely decimated and Mages are free to roam. It's just not going to happen. That's two totally different worlds that Bioware would not be able (or willing) to create based on one decision. 

So keep that in mind when setting your expectations. It is either going to be a compromise/truce or there is going to be an event happen that will completely change the nature of Thedas and which will make the choice of Mage v. Templar completely irrelevant - like, say, everyone in the world suddenly gains magic and everyone is Mages. The Save Import prevents any other outcome, unless they say that even if you side with the Mages/Templars, the outcome of who ultimately wins is set in stone. Like, say, no matter what you do, the Templars still win and the Circles remain intact.

Those are the only options on the table for the Mage/Templar war - eradication of one side or the other (regardless of what choice the player makes), a compromise where both sides find a middle ground (regardless of how extreme the player's views are) or some kind of crazy cataclysm that makes the entire Mage v. Templar discussion moot. That's about it. 

But, if that was the case, then it wouldn't matter what choice was made by the player and this thread becomes irrelevant. 

[EdwinLi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Let me put it this way... the ending to DA3 will be the same, no matter who you side with. Sure, there will be come flavors of things that are varied because you chose X instead of Y, but the story will be at the same place, regardless.

DA4 is not going to entertain the idea where Mages are locked up by Templars in one Imported Save and where the Templar order is completely decimated and Mages are free to roam. It's just not going to happen. That's two totally different worlds that Bioware would not be able (or willing) to create based on one decision. 

So keep that in mind when setting your expectations. It is either going to be a compromise/truce or there is going to be an event happen that will completely change the nature of Thedas and which will make the choice of Mage v. Templar completely irrelevant - like, say, everyone in the world suddenly gains magic and everyone is Mages. The Save Import prevents any other outcome, unless they say that even if you side with the Mages/Templars, the outcome of who ultimately wins is set in stone. Like, say, no matter what you do, the Templars still win and the Circles remain intact.

Those are the only options on the table for the Mage/Templar war - eradication of one side or the other (regardless of what choice the player makes), a compromise where both sides find a middle ground (regardless of how extreme the player's views are) or some kind of crazy cataclysm that makes the entire Mage v. Templar discussion moot. That's about it. 

But, if that was the case, then it wouldn't matter what choice was made by the player and this thread becomes irrelevant. 

Hopefully they go with the way DA:O handle choices so they don't have to put too much into making the next game(they did hint DA4 since they did say they will consider bring back race choice option in future DA games) depend so much on DA3 choices.

DA:O handled choices nicely for its time because it tells us how things went and did not make DA2 depend on our choices in DA:O a lot.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 01 mai 2013 - 09:04 .

[Lulupab]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I don't see a successful mage victory concept without Anders presence.

I don't see a successful Mage victory concept WITH the presence of a terrorist.
 

Well a good mage victory concept would mean total defeat of templars and chantry and if that happens a person who blew up a chantry is NOT a terrorist but a hero. 

Let me put it this way... the ending to DA3 will be the same, no matter who you side with. Sure, there will be come flavors of things that are varied because you chose X instead of Y, but the story will be at the same place, regardless.

DA4 is not going to entertain the idea where Mages are locked up by Templars in one Imported Save and where the Templar order is completely decimated and Mages are free to roam. It's just not going to happen. That's two totally different worlds that Bioware would not be able (or willing) to create based on one decision. 

So keep that in mind when setting your expectations. It is either going to be a compromise/truce or there is going to be an event happen that will completely change the nature of Thedas and which will make the choice of Mage v. Templar completely irrelevant - like, say, everyone in the world suddenly gains magic and everyone is Mages. The Save Import prevents any other outcome, unless they say that even if you side with the Mages/Templars, the outcome of who ultimately wins is set in stone. Like, say, no matter what you do, the Templars still win and the Circles remain intact.

Those are the only options on the table for the Mage/Templar war - eradication of one side or the other (regardless of what choice the player makes), a compromise where both sides find a middle ground (regardless of how extreme the player's views are) or some kind of crazy cataclysm that makes the entire Mage v. Templar discussion moot. That's about it. 

But, if that was the case, then it wouldn't matter what choice was made by the player and this thread becomes irrelevant. 

Perhaps the endings will be the same, but there ought to be differences elsewhere. For example I kept Anders alive and maybe you killed him. I think we should get a major difference in our playthrough. For example I get Anders as potential companion while you get a templar or a mage who wants coexistence with chantry. Of course this is just a suggestion, I just mean to say there has to be a big enough difference.

[Xilizhra]

If more Templars were like Thrask than things wouldn't have ended up like they are now.

Ifififififififififif. If things were different, they might indeed be different, but that is not how they are.

The Chantry ended up teaching people and mages that Magic should be feared which is what turned Magic into a tool of fear for the Chantry and Templars to use to rule. They went against that saying and ignored what they were becoming because of how they used the fear of Magic to keep their power.

Indeed. The Chantry's power must be broken and the templars annihilated for something new to be brought about.

[Fast Jimmy]

DA:O handled choices nicely for its time because it tells us how things went and did not make DA2 depend on our choices in DA:O a lot.

But no matter what you did, the Blight was ended and the Archdemon slain. That's how the world state ended up. Sure, there were differences based on your choices, but the fundamental world was the same.

How can anyone say that the disasssembly of the Circles, meaning Mages are free to roam the world and live anywhere, or holding up of the existing system, where they can never leave, would not affect DA4? Mage freedom is a game changer. It's not something you can just sweep under the rug, like who the king of Orzammar is. It's a system that affects the entire world and that would dictate, logistically, where and how we could run into an entire subset of NPCs. It's not something they can have diverge in too many different directions and still be able to make a game in DA4.

Perhaps the endings will be the same, but there ought to be differences elsewhere. For example I kept Anders alive and maybe you killed him. I think we should get a major difference in our playthrough. For example I get Anders as potential companion while you get a templar or a mage who wants coexistence with chantry. Of course this is just a suggestion, I just mean to say there has to be a big enough difference.

Like I said... it may be best to temper your expectations. Considerably.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 01 mai 2013 - 09:23 .

[Lulupab]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

DA:O handled choices nicely for its time because it tells us how things went and did not make DA2 depend on our choices in DA:O a lot.

But no matter what you did, the Blight was ended and the Archdemon slain. That's how the world ended. Sure, there were differences based on your choices, but the fundamental world was the same.

How can anyone say that the disasssembly of the Circles, meaning Mages are free to roam the world and live anywhere, or holding up of the existing system, where they can never leave, would not affect DA4? Mage freedom is a game changer. It's not something you can just sweep under the rug, like who the king of Orzammar is. It's a system that affects the entire world and that would dictate, logistically, where and how we could run into an entire subset of NPCs. It's not something they can have diverge in too many different directions and still be able to make a game in DA4.

Perhaps the endings will be the same, but there ought to be differences elsewhere. For example I kept Anders alive and maybe you killed him. I think we should get a major difference in our playthrough. For example I get Anders as potential companion while you get a templar or a mage who wants coexistence with chantry. Of course this is just a suggestion, I just mean to say there has to be a big enough difference.

Like I said... it may be best to temper your expectations. Considerably.

I'm not expecting much. Many people want many things and Bioware can only answer to a few of them. I was just saying.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Would a Codex entry about Anders being alive or dead be okay with you?

[EdwinLi]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chantry ended up teaching people and mages that Magic should be feared which is what turned Magic into a tool of fear for the Chantry and Templars to use to rule. They went against that saying and ignored what they were becoming because of how they used the fear of Magic to keep their power.

Indeed. The Chantry's power must be broken and the templars annihilated for something new to be brought about.

The issue isn't that the Chantry needs to be removed but the Chantry needs to be fixed or a new Type of Chantry needs to be created.

With this choas going around we have seen the Chantry has completely lost control over the Circle and Templars. This happened because of what the Chantry had become which allowed too much power towards the Templars and lose of rights for the Mages to do any good which prevented Mages from serving man.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 01 mai 2013 - 09:27 .

[Fast Jimmy]

EdwinLi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chantry ended up teaching people and mages that Magic should be feared which is what turned Magic into a tool of fear for the Chantry and Templars to use to rule. They went against that saying and ignored what they were becoming because of how they used the fear of Magic to keep their power.

Indeed. The Chantry's power must be broken and the templars annihilated for something new to be brought about.

The issue isn't that the Chantry needs to be removed but the Chantry needs to be fixed or a new Type of Chantry needs to be created.

For the night is dark and full of terrors. 

[Xilizhra]

EdwinLi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chantry ended up teaching people and mages that Magic should be feared which is what turned Magic into a tool of fear for the Chantry and Templars to use to rule. They went against that saying and ignored what they were becoming because of how they used the fear of Magic to keep their power.

Indeed. The Chantry's power must be broken and the templars annihilated for something new to be brought about.

The issue isn't that the Chantry needs to be removed but the Chantry needs to be fixed or a new Type of Chantry needs to be created.

With this choas going around we have seen the Chantry has completely lost control over the Circle and Templars. This happened because of what the Chantry had become which allowed too much power towards the Templars and lose of rights for the Mages to do any good which prevented Mages from serving man.

The Chantry may or may not be fixable. I'll give the benefit of the doubt for now... but it can't continue like it has.

[Knight of Dane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

No a good mage victory would mean acceptance by templars and the chantry

There can be no coexistence, unless the templars were literally reprogrammed into benevolent guardians.

Of course there can.

[Lulupab]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Would a Codex entry about Anders being alive or dead be okay with you?

I don't know, but honestly? I think if someone decided to keep Anders alive they at least deserve some scenes. Maybe he simply aids you in one of yout quests and is replaced by someone else if Anders was killed.

I think at least 40% of players kept him alive, I'm active in Deviantart and there are A LOT of Anders fan in there and by A lot I mean it. Only Fenris has more fans. So according to this fact its not too much to ask for Anders involvement in DA3.

[KainD]

EdwinLi wrote...

The issue isn't that the Chantry needs to be removed but the Chantry needs to be fixed or a new Type of Chantry needs to be created.

Why do you NEED the chantry?

[Xilizhra]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

No a good mage victory would mean acceptance by templars and the chantry

There can be no coexistence, unless the templars were literally reprogrammed into benevolent guardians.

Of course there can.

The templars are dedicated, as an order, to nothing but the oppression and/or extermination of mages. There never could be any peace and never was; the numerous Annulments were only the times when the cold war was hot.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rassler wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Would a Codex entry about Anders being alive or dead be okay with you?

I don't know, but honestly? I think if someone decided to keep Anders alive they at least deserve some scenes. Maybe he simply aids you in one of yout quests and is replaced by someone else if Anders was killed.

I think at least 40% of players kept him alive, I'm active in Deviantart and there are A LOT of Anders fan in there and by A lot I mean it. Only Fenris has more fans. So according to this fact its not too much to ask for Anders involvement in DA3.

Well, I'd say a lot of people saved the Rachni in ME or didn't kill the Mages in DA:O, but those choices didn't have any extra content in future games aside from Codex entries or small dialogue changes. No cameos or anything.

I'm not trying to diminish anyone's support for Anders (although I personally view his loss of control over his own mental faculties due to the corruption as Vengenace tragic, but ultimately deserving of death) but Bioware has not been in the business of creating loads of custom content from prior game choices. So I was just wondering what level of reduced role you would want the game to give you if his appearance was completely off the table (hypothetically speaking).

Would a letter like what we had in Hawke's house about it be good enough?

[Xilizhra]

Well, I'd say a lot of people saved the Rachni in ME or didn't kill the Mages in DA:O, but those choices didn't have any extra content in future games aside from Codex entries or small dialogue changes. No cameos or anything.

And the rachni thing was widely hated. It'd be a poor move to copy that, I think.

Would a letter like what we had in Hawke's house about it be good enough?

Not really. Anders, I believe, is too important a character to not make some kind of cameo.

[azarhal]

Rassler wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Would a Codex entry about Anders being alive or dead be okay with you?

I don't know, but honestly? I think if someone decided to keep Anders alive they at least deserve some scenes. Maybe he simply aids you in one of yout quests and is replaced by someone else if Anders was killed.

I think at least 40% of players kept him alive, I'm active in Deviantart and there are A LOT of Anders fan in there and by A lot I mean it. Only Fenris has more fans. So according to this fact its not too much to ask for Anders involvement in DA3.

Considering what Anders did, the number of people aware of it and his own desire to be punished, I don't see how people can expect the guy to be alive more than 3 years later...

[Xilizhra]

azarhal wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Would a Codex entry about Anders being alive or dead be okay with you?

I don't know, but honestly? I think if someone decided to keep Anders alive they at least deserve some scenes. Maybe he simply aids you in one of yout quests and is replaced by someone else if Anders was killed.

I think at least 40% of players kept him alive, I'm active in Deviantart and there are A LOT of Anders fan in there and by A lot I mean it. Only Fenris has more fans. So according to this fact its not too much to ask for Anders involvement in DA3.

Considering what Anders did, the number of people aware of it and his own desire to be punished, I don't see how people can expect the guy to be alive more than 3 years later...

It gets better if he survives, and he rededicates himself to the fight.