322 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Specifically to inspire fear in the civilian populace, something Anders was not about.

I don't know that I agree on that point.

Miriam Webster says...

terrorism:

the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

Terror is not the goal. It never is. Terror is the method. Terror was the method Anders used.

Yes as mentioned before his cause is more just than any terrorism in real life. Besides just think about being tranquil, mindless animal that can speak. Even animals have more emotions. That is terrorism. Terrorism doesn't have to be an explosion you know.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There's an idea that's not necessarily bad... but the religious aspects of the templars have to be destroyed, among other things, and the original creed crushed.

Xil, Xil, Xil...so violent!


I can only argue what I have been: that the creed itself shows no wrong, and the implementation needs to be changed rather than the creed itself.

The tree of liberty must at times be watered with the blood of tyrants. And the creed itself is an open invitation to tyranny, indeed an encouragement.

[Xilizhra]

The what, you say? System? Not creed?

Creed and system are one and the same. It's never been used for anything else, nor is it intended to be.

[Homebound]

speaking of creed, this smells of mutually assured desruction to me. the war will end with bloody death of both unless evil anders kils himself. at that pointhe becomes a martyr and the mages lock the world in constant war.

[The Hierophant]

Didn't Anders' assassination of Elthina take advantage of Meredith's paranoia fueled fears, and Kirkwall Circles fear of Templar retaliation?

[EmperorSahlertz]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Filament wrote...


Or do its repeated failures show it to be an unrealistic, impractical creed? Say, communism.

Interesting you bring that up.

Communism is an unrealistic, unpractical creed for very definite reasons, not simply because it hasn't worked so far. Communism fails because it relies on human goodwill, on humans not being inherently lazy and/or greedy. These assumptions are untrue, thus communism fails. Nothing to do with history itself.

You of course realize that the history of mankind is built on the foundation of communistic societies? Every single tribe of prehistoric time was a communistic community. Every member contributed and recieved what was needed to survive. The problem communism faces today, is the scale, and the fact that we as a people have been stuck in capitalism for too long, where laziness is rewarded. As such a truly communistic nation, would have to go through several generations of rehabilitation and general restructure to even hope to achieve the inital phases. Communism can work on paper, and already has in practice, it is simply not possible as of now.

[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The tree of liberty must at times be watered with the blood of tyrants. And the creed itself is an open invitation to tyranny, indeed an encouragement.

No more so than any creed to "protect."

Strangely, many governmental constitutions have not created thousand-year-old bigoted tyrannies.

It definitely is not more just--it's all based on an arbitrary belief
system, be it "mages shouldn't be in the Circle" or be it "The US is the
Great Satan." There is no proof, physical proof, that either view is
correct or incorrect, so they are equal.

Inasmuch as all morality and ethics are arbitrary, perhaps.

No. Creed is the ideal. System is the implementation.

And the ideal is itself inherently tyrannical, with templar dominance over mages in the name of an evil god.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 mai 2013 - 10:39 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would a letter like what we had in Hawke's house about it be good enough?

Not really. Anders, I believe, is too important a character to not make some kind of cameo.

Well, Morrigan was a pretty important character in DA:O, but she didn't get a cameo in DA2. 

Would you feel okay if Anders'' cameo if it was replaced with another NPC if he was killed? One that might be more sympathetic to the other side, like say... Fenris? 

[Xilizhra]

I appreciate the word "desire" as opposed to "right."

I'm sure you do, but it makes no difference to those of us who believe in rights.

Well, Morrigan was a pretty important character in DA:O, but she didn't get a cameo in DA2.

Regrettably so, but none of the other companions got their own postgame DLC.

Would you feel okay if Anders'' cameo if it was replaced with another
NPC if he was killed? One that might be more sympathetic to the other
side, like say... Fenris?

Perhaps... it can be like the Wrex/Wreav scenario from ME3.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 mai 2013 - 10:40 .

[LobselVith8]

EdwinLi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The Chantry ended up teaching people and mages that Magic should be feared which is what turned Magic into a tool of fear for the Chantry and Templars to use to rule. They went against that saying and ignored what they were becoming because of how they used the fear of Magic to keep their power.

Indeed. The Chantry's power must be broken and the templars annihilated for something new to be brought about.

The issue isn't that the Chantry needs to be removed but the Chantry needs to be fixed or a new Type of Chantry needs to be created.

I respectfully disagree. I think the Andrastian Chantry should be dissolved. It's a morally bankrupt organization that has done heinous things to the elves and the mages.

EdwinLi wrote...

With this choas going around we have seen the Chantry has completely lost control over the Circle and Templars. This happened because of what the Chantry had become which allowed too much power towards the Templars and lose of rights for the Mages to do any good which prevented Mages from serving man. 

I think Thedas would be better off without a tyrannical religion and a group of armed zealots who think they have dominion over mages by divine right. I'd like that to be an outcome for the War.

[Xilizhra]

I respectfully disagree. I think the Andrastian Chantry should be dissolved. It's a morally bankrupt organization that has done heinous things to the elves and the mages.

True, but taking out an entire religion, especially with nothing to replace it, is nigh-impossible. Something like the Reformation may be more practical.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Specifically to inspire fear in the civilian populace, something Anders was not about.

I don't know that I agree on that point.

Miriam Webster says...

terrorism:

the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

Terror is not the goal. It never is. Terror is the method. Terror was the method Anders used.

Yes as mentioned before his cause is more just than any terrorism in real life. Besides just think about being tranquil, mindless animal that can speak. Even animals have more emotions. That is terrorism. Terrorism doesn't have to be an explosion you know.

The Rite of Tranquility is no more terrorism than capital punishment is. Tranquility is used as punishment and as a safety measure both, but it is not intended to either push an agenda or even sow fear. So for obvious reasons, it can't qualify for terrorism.

[Xilizhra]

I would ague inasmuch as the perception of such is arbitrary. The fact that there's no definitive proof, outside of belief, for either position, decrees that they be viewed equally.

One cause can be more just than another within the bounds of a given ethical system.

What does "protect mages from themselves" have to do with dominance? With the Maker? Nothing whatsoever. Again, that's the implementation--the interpretation--not the creed itself.

The full creed is far longer than that, but even with that one, it's flawed and is prone to create bigotry. The accurate creed should be "protect mages from demons."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 01 mai 2013 - 10:47 .

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I respectfully disagree. I think the Andrastian Chantry should be dissolved. It's a morally bankrupt organization that has done heinous things to the elves and the mages.

True, but taking out an entire religion, especially with nothing to replace it, is nigh-impossible. Something like the Reformation may be more practical.

I meant the monstrous organization. If it prevents another millennia of slavery by dissolving an anti-mage religious institution, it's worth the attempt.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Filament wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I appreciate the word "desire" as opposed to "right."

I'm sure you do, but it makes no difference to those of us who believe in rights.

To be clear, I was hesitant to use the word "right" because it seems to be a social construct that may fall apart outside of the conditions of civil society we enjoy today. A lion isn't violating my right to life by eating me, it's just hungry. Life integrated with magic and demons perhaps also necessitates a different understanding of the concept. I'm not sure, and "desire" is a much easier word to justify.

You could always try and tell the lion that it is oppressing you...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 01 mai 2013 - 10:48 .

[Knight of Dane]

Filament wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I appreciate the word "desire" as opposed to "right."

I'm sure you do, but it makes no difference to those of us who believe in rights.

To be clear, I was hesitant to use the word "right" because it seems to be a social construct that may fall apart outside of the conditions of civil society we enjoy today. A lion isn't violating my right to life by eating me, it's just hungry. Life integrated with magic and demons perhaps also necessitates a different understanding of the concept. I'm not sure, and "desire" is a much easier word to justify.

It could be a satanical lion >_>