322 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

In DA:O, you have examples like Bryant, Gregoire and Otto. You have the addled but devoted Templar guarding the Chantry doors. You even have two other Knight Commanders, one who is bribable and the other who is not, in Redcliffe & Denerim. Please provide examples of these Templar using influence to harm Circle mages or the populace.

Bryant and Otto are never seen within a Circle, so we don't know their conduct. Greagoir is a tyrannical bastard willing to commit sanctioned murder and mind rape numerous times, known for physically abusing pregnant women, and willing to let many civilians die to save his own soldiers. One of the other commanders finds redemption through corruption, the other is simply another tyrant.

[Nalia_dArnise]

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

[Dave of Canada]

Nalia_dArnise wrote...

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

And letting mages "free" won't help with that because the Circle is the only time they're being educated and it's the only way to forcibly conscript them since they'll all be in one spot.

[azarhal]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nalia_dArnise wrote...

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

And letting mages "free" won't help with that because the Circle is the only time they're being educated and it's the only way to forcibly conscript them since they'll all be in one spot.

Free mages will still mostly live in closed off community, Tevinter still have Circles (7 of them). Also, mages try to find knowledge, without it they just keep on having horrible nightmares because of demons.

Just look at Feynriel in DA2, he wanted to learn, he just didn't want to go to the Circle with all the stories going out about Meredith and her friends. But the Chantry forced the Mages to abandon so much of their knowledge that if you send him to the Circle they are not going to be able to help him, same goes for the Dalish (who also lost knowledge). He run to Tevinter to get a proper teacher (or you can make him Tranquil or let the Sloth demon to take charge).

Mages just want to be able to live without being consired tools and pets. Without being under constant fear of Templar rapists, abusers and extremists. Templars were created to protecte mages, not persecute them. But the later is all they are doing now (and it was a gradual process that is rather recent going by Dawn of the Seeker intro).

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

In DA:O, you have examples like Bryant, Gregoire and Otto. You have the addled but devoted Templar guarding the Chantry doors. You even have two other Knight Commanders, one who is bribable and the other who is not, in Redcliffe & Denerim. Please provide examples of these Templar using influence to harm Circle mages or the populace.

Bryant and Otto are never seen within a Circle, so we don't know their conduct. Greagoir is a tyrannical bastard willing to commit sanctioned murder and mind rape numerous times, known for physically abusing pregnant women, and willing to let many civilians die to save his own soldiers. One of the other commanders finds redemption through corruption, the other is simply another tyrant.

Well, you're not only off base, but you're in the wrong ballpark.

EdwinLi wrote...
The
old circle did not follow this which is why this whole thing happened.
Magic became a tool for the Templars to use and allowed them to slowly
rule through fear of magic. No one would question a templar becuase they
are seen as the world protectors but as we have seen the Templars have
falling even more deeper into greed and corruption because they have
gain too much influence by using the fear of Magic to build up their
power in the world.

Provide examples of this please. 

So far your answer is "Well, they (Otto & Bryant) weren't around mages, the only people who matter so they don't count.  The bribable Knight Commander is the good guy because he supports mage master race while the other one, who is doing his job of hunting apostates, is horrible.  Oh and I had to use a little known comic which completely changes Gregoires character to find something bad about him.  Also he does his job, which includes harrowings and Rites of Tranquility, so he's bad, take my word for it." 

All of which doesn't really matter when it comes to Templar gaining influence by using the fear of Magic.  I'll give you Meredith and I already gave the bribable Knight Commander.  Do I need to make an argument for you now?

[Xilizhra]

So far your answer is "Well, they (Otto & Bryant) weren't around mages, the only people who matter so they don't count. The bribable Knight Commander is the good guy because he supports mage master race while the other one, who is doing his job of hunting apostates, is horrible. Oh and I had to use a little known comic which completely changes Gregoires character to find something bad about him. Also he does his job, which includes harrowings and Rites of Tranquility, so he's bad, take my word for it."

Otto and Bryant were only around social equals; you can learn far more about a person by seeing how they treat their inferiors. The one doing his "job" is of course evil because the job itself is evil. As for Greagoir, you'd first need to prove that the comic isn't canon to be able to dismiss it, and again, upholding all the details of his job in that manner is in fact evil.

[BlueMagitek]

Xilizhra wrote...

So far your answer is "Well, they (Otto & Bryant) weren't around mages, the only people who matter so they don't count. The bribable Knight Commander is the good guy because he supports mage master race while the other one, who is doing his job of hunting apostates, is horrible. Oh and I had to use a little known comic which completely changes Gregoires character to find something bad about him. Also he does his job, which includes harrowings and Rites of Tranquility, so he's bad, take my word for it."

Otto and Bryant were only around social equals; you can learn far more about a person by seeing how they treat their inferiors. The one doing his "job" is of course evil because the job itself is evil. As for Greagoir, you'd first need to prove that the comic isn't canon to be able to dismiss it, and again, upholding all the details of his job in that manner is in fact evil.

Abandoned peasants & refugees, with City Elves?  Well at least the Templar are a humble people, then. 

No one said being a Templar was an easy job.  But I remember Gregoire compromising with Irving, not using a RoA when he could have so long as his condition was met, assisting the Grey Wardens if the Mages were annulled, putting down Cullen's argument and being very reasonable.

The comic can be canon once it has an effect on the games, until then it is Infinity level canon.

But again, either respond to what I was talking about or stop.  I've already given Meredith and the bribable Templar as overstepping their bounds to gain influence.  Please show examples of the rest of them.

[SparksMKII]

As I usually play a warrior I don't really care about the whole mage vs templar war, picked templars because eventually you had to pick a side in DA2 so we'll see what happens there eventually.

[Xilizhra]

Abandoned peasants & refugees, with City Elves? Well at least the Templar are a humble people, then.

The ones in Lothering were mostly human, and what would one blind unarmed templar gain from harassing an angry community of elves?

No one said being a Templar was an easy job. But I remember Gregoire compromising with Irving, not using a RoA when he could have so long as his condition was met, assisting the Grey Wardens if the Mages were annulled, putting down Cullen's argument and being very reasonable.

He has an arrangement with Irving. In exchange, Irving doesn't put up a fight when Greagoir rapes/kills his people on a day-to-day level.

But again, either respond to what I was talking about or stop. I've already given Meredith and the bribable Templar as overstepping their bounds to gain influence. Please show examples of the rest of them.

Ask the person you were actually arguing with about that.

[Dave of Canada]

azarhal wrote...

Mages just want to be able to live without being consired tools and pets.

No, they want "freedom" without knowing what that means. Their reasoning for hating the Circles is idiotic because Tevinter has the very same system in place, the only difference is that mages are high on the social ladder in Tevinter and even then, most mages there who don't make it to Magister live horrible lives.

The Chantry/Templar is the only thing stopping mages from either being hunted down by mundanes and is the only thing stopping Monarchs from trying to make mages into their assets, potentially for war. 

Without being under constant fear of Templar rapists, abusers and extremists.

Except Templars aren't "rapists" or "abusers", no more than anyone else on Thedas. Templar is the only order in all of Thedas which actually prosecutes it's criminals when the system works, the Chantry doesn't want to anger the mages because they're one of their most useful assets and mages live very comfortable lives in exchange.

"Extremist" is a very poor word because a Templar extremist might very well be pro-Circle/Co-existance than he could be wanting to slaughter them

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 mai 2013 - 01:16 .

[The Spirit of Dance]

I'll side with the Templars for my first playthrough, but I am hoping that option 3 exists in this game. It'd be a let down if you only had the choice to choose one of the two sides like in the ending of DA2.

[azarhal]

Dave of Canada wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Mages just want to be able to live without being consired tools and pets.

No, they want "freedom" without knowing what that means. Their reasoning for hating the Circles is idiotic because Tevinter has the very same system in place, the only difference is that mages are high on the social ladder in Tevinter and even then, most mages there who don't make it to Magister live horrible lives.

The Chantry/Templar is the only thing stopping mages from either being hunted down by mundanes and is the only thing stopping Monarchs from trying to make mages into their assets, potentially for war.

I don't know what Dragon Age games and books you've been playing and reading, but I think the mages knows what they want (or more like what they don't want) and why they want it. I don't think raising up against persecution is idiotic (and it is persecution, Dawn of the Seeker says it in its intro narration). No idea why you brought up Tevinter here. Also, I suggest you buy ourself a copy of World of Thedas vol 1 for an explanation of Tevinter's castes system.

Monarchs have all the rights to use mages as assets, if they treat them like people. Also, have you seen a lot of "mundanes" trying to kill mages (because of fear of mages) in DA:O and DA2? Because, I haven't meet a single one.

Except Templars aren't "rapists" or "abusers", no more than anyone else on Thedas. Templar is the only order in all of Thedas which actually prosecutes it's criminals when the system works, the Chantry doesn't want to anger the mages because they're one of their most useful assets and mages live very comfortable lives in exchange.

"Extremist" is a very poor word because a Templar extremist might very well be pro-Circle/Co-existance than he could be wanting to slaughter them

Templars do not prosecute people. Gregoire didn't say that Lily would have to be judged by a court, he said she's going straight to Aeonar (a secret prison that is supposed to be used for dangerous apostates and Lily isn't even a mage). The Templars were killing everyone going against their "leadership" in Kirkwall in Act 3 (way before Anders blaze of glory). Nobles who wanted to get the city back into a viscount's hand and normal people helping mages were killed on sight. Might I add that Templars aren't supposed to do politics...

Templars is a dictatorship, sometimes you are lucky to have a nice person in charge and that is it.

"Except Templars aren't "rapists" or "abusers", no more than anyone else on Thedas. "

Wow, what an amazing argument. Dave "because others are doing it too" never worked in court. Templars that rapes and abuse mages should be removed from office and sent to jail, but DA2 showed us that they get promoted and that other Templars don't even report them. The entire order is corrupt, from top to bottom. And now it's too late to clean it unless you purge the group that run away from the Chantry (which is to say, most of them).

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nalia_dArnise wrote...

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

And letting mages "free" won't help with that because the Circle is the only time they're being educated and it's the only way to forcibly conscript them since they'll all be in one spot.

So your saying that mage can only be recruited when they are all in one place? dafuq? even modern day armies  dont pen up their soldiers and release them when needed. But i guarantee you thedas dont stands a better chance if mages remain alive.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Otto and Bryant were only around social equals;

So, members of an international, highly trained, revered and influential order of Holy Knigths are, somehow, the social equals of peasants, refugees and city elves?
Yeah, no. The Templars in Lothering could have packed their bags and moved to greener pastures like the Arl did, instead they remained behind to help the people escape the Darkspawn. Ser Otto could have turned his back on the Alienage and let the demons have some fun with the elves which is what some templars in Kirkwall do if Feinryel joins the Dalish but he chose to go there, blind, and look for clues of demonic or maleficar presence.

The lengths to which some people will go to demonize any and all templars...

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 03:09 .

[DKJaigen]

Nalia_dArnise wrote...

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

And dont forget the tevinter imperium. The histroy of thedas has confirmed what i already expected : the tevinter imperium is growing stronger as they research magic. It will now only be a matter of time before the templar order is gone. The only question is who will get them first.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Otto and Bryant were only around social equals;

So, members of an international, highly trained, revered and influential order of Holy Knigths are, somehow, the social equals of peasants, refugees and city elves?
Yeah, no. The Templars in Lothering could have packed their bags and moved to greener pastures like the Arl did, instead they remained behind to help the people escape the Darkspawn. Ser Otto could have turned his back on the Alienage and let the demons have some fun with the elves which is what some templars in Kirkwall do if Feinryel joins the Dalish but he chose to go there, blind, and look for clues of demonic or maleficar presence.

The lengths to which some people will go to demonize any and all templars...

who cares. in ww2 their where plenty of honorable and good german soldiers that didnt make what they fought for any less repellent

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...


He has an arrangement with Irving. In exchange, Irving doesn't put up a fight when Greagoir rapes/kills his people on a day-to-day level.

Sorry, where it was stated that he rapes mages, or allows templars to rape mages?
Plus, on beating pregnant women, since I haven't read the comics, is it said that he does it frequently? Why did he beat the pregnant women?

About the OP, my solution is an indipendant Circle with a control system. If someone wants to know the details, they can read the thread I made from my profile page.

[Nalia_dArnise]

del

Modifié par Nalia_dArnise, 03 mai 2013 - 04:32 .

[Nalia_dArnise]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nalia_dArnise wrote...

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

And letting mages "free" won't help with that because the Circle is the only time they're being educated and it's the only way to forcibly conscript them since they'll all be in one spot.

"Freedom" isn't equal "oh, now you can do what your want and have no responsibility for your actions". Circles as schools of magic must stay, I think. But without absolute power of templars.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, no. The Templars in Lothering could have packed their bags and moved to greener pastures like the Arl did, instead they remained behind to help the people escape the Darkspawn.

That's just what they did. Certainly they left before the last of the refugees did, as shown in DA2.

Ser Otto could have turned his back on the Alienage and let the demons have some fun with the elves which is what some templars in Kirkwall do if Feinryel joins the Dalish but he chose to go there, blind, and look for clues of demonic or maleficar presence.

Magical threats are magical threats, regardless of their location.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Nalia_dArnise wrote...

Mages of course. Siding templars = kill more mages = weaken Theds agains the Qunari. And I loathe Qun.

And letting mages "free" won't help with that because the Circle is the only time they're being educated and it's the only way to forcibly conscript them since they'll all be in one spot. 

I think mages can be educated without forcing them into servitude to the Chantry. Letting an anti-mage religious order have dominion over mages in the name of their god is the reason why they emancipated themselves in the first place.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
That's just what they did. Certainly they left before the last of the refugees did, as shown in DA2.

The templars helped protect the fleeing refugees when the darkspawn arrived. The Hawke family was delayed because of Carver and Hawke who were in the battle.
Obviously, the templars can't just haul them over the shoulder nor can they save everyone which doesn't change the fact they remained behind while the arl fled just to protect the people.

Magical threats are magical threats, regardless of their location.

A group of templars of Kirkwall ignored the possibiltiy of Feinryel becoming an Abominations because if he did, the people getting hurt would be Dalish with whom they do not have an amicable relationship, anyway.
Ser Otto risked going alone into the Alienage, (a single, blind human in the Alienage, how was he not mugged) to deal with any magical influence that could threaten the city, elves included.

[Plaintiff]

Dave of Canada wrote...
the Chantry doesn't want to anger the mages because they're one of their most useful assets and mages live very comfortable lives in exchange.

The mages support themselves through the sale of their magical goods. The Chantry doesn't pay for their way of life, or make any effort to see that they are educated. The older mages take on that responsibility for themselves.

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
The mages support themselves through the sale of their magical goods. The Chantry doesn't pay for their way of life, or make any effort to see that they are educated. The older mages take on that responsibility for themselves.

The mages are valuable natural resources. If the business of magical good suddenlly failed to sustain them, there is no way the Chantry would let them starve.
Their accommodations are provided by the Chantry, however. In Orlais, mages live in Drakon's former palace. A freaking palace.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[Plaintiff]

MisterJB wrote...
The mages are valuable natural resources. If the business of magical good suddenlly failed to sustain them, there is no way the Chantry would let them starve.

Keeping the mages alive so they can be used as weapons to progress the Chantry's vile agenda is hardly a point in the system's favour.

Their accommodations are provided by the Chantry, however. In Orlais, mages live in Drakon's former palace. A freaking palace.

Those fancy beds probably make all the rape much more enjoyable. Assuming they weren't sold off years ago.

Am I supposed to be impressed? We already know that the Chantry boards the mages in whatever large, deserted buildings happen to be around. It's not like they went to any particular effort for the Orlesian circle. They just used what they had. It's just sheer luck that the Orlesian mages are in a former palace and not a prison.

I thought all this time that what mages wanted was a modicum of control over their own lives. But I guess all we needed to gloss over this issue was marble floors and the occasional tapestry.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 mai 2013 - 06:36 .