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[Xilizhra]

The templars helped protect the fleeing refugees when the darkspawn arrived. The Hawke family was delayed because of Carver and Hawke who were in the battle.
Obviously, the templars can't just haul them over the shoulder nor can they save everyone which doesn't change the fact they remained behind while the arl fled just to protect the people.

The point being that these people weren't mages, and the templars have no reason to hold animosity.

A group of templars of Kirkwall ignored the possibiltiy of Feinryel becoming an Abominations because if he did, the people getting hurt would be Dalish with whom they do not have an amicable relationship, anyway.
Ser Otto risked going alone into the Alienage, (a single, blind human in the Alienage, how was he not mugged) to deal with any magical influence that could threaten the city, elves included.

And the fact that they sent a single old blind guy to investigate should tell you how much the Denerim templars cared.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The mages are valuable natural resources. If the business of magical good suddenlly failed to sustain them, there is no way the Chantry would let them starve.

Keeping the mages alive so they can be used as weapons to progress the Chantry's vile agenda is hardly a point in the system's favour.

Their accommodations are provided by the Chantry, however. In Orlais, mages live in Drakon's former palace. A freaking palace.

Those fancy beds probably make all the rape much more enjoyable. Assuming they weren't sold off years ago.

Am I supposed to be impressed? We already know that the Chantry boards the mages in whatever large, deserted buildings happen to be around. It's not like they went to any particular effort for the Orlesian circle. They just used what they had. It's just sheer luck that the Orlesian mages are in a former palace and not a prison.

I thought all this time that what mages wanted was a modicum of control over their own lives. But I guess all we needed to gloss over this issue was marble floors and the occasional tapestry.

Yeah, because all mages are raped all the time..... It is actually just one big ****fest for the Templars... You don't get tired of beating that dead old horse? I mean at least us pro-chantry fellas don't try and claim all mages are abominations, do try and update your rethoric at least once in awhile.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The point being that these people weren't mages, and the templars have no reason to hold animosity.

Treatment of mages is not the sole determining factor when deciding the moral character of someone.
This was a truly sefless and noble act from selfless and noble templars. Ser Bryant even shrugs Morrigan off to focus on the mass of walking death coming in their direction which does mean he has his priorities straight.

And the fact that they sent a single old blind guy to investigate should tell you how much the Denerim templars cared.

Civil War. Blight. I'm going to guess the old, blind guy was the only one they could spare.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The mages are valuable natural resources. If the business of magical good suddenlly failed to sustain them, there is no way the Chantry would let them starve.

Keeping the mages alive so they can be used as weapons to progress the Chantry's vile agenda is hardly a point in the system's favour.

Their accommodations are provided by the Chantry, however. In Orlais, mages live in Drakon's former palace. A freaking palace.

Those fancy beds probably make all the rape much more enjoyable. Assuming they weren't sold off years ago.

Am I supposed to be impressed? We already know that the Chantry boards the mages in whatever large, deserted buildings happen to be around. It's not like they went to any particular effort for the Orlesian circle. They just used what they had. It's just sheer luck that the Orlesian mages are in a former palace and not a prison.

I thought all this time that what mages wanted was a modicum of control over their own lives. But I guess all we needed to gloss over this issue was marble floors and the occasional tapestry.

Yeah, because all mages are raped all the time..... It is actually just one big ****fest for the Templars... You don't get tired of beating that dead old horse? I mean at least us pro-chantry fellas don't try and claim all mages are abominations, do try and update your rethoric at least once in awhile.

You're right. Not every templar commits rape, they just participate in the inherently abusive system that allows it to go unpunished.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 mai 2013 - 06:50 .

[MisterJB]

Plaintiff wrote...
Keeping the mages alive so they can be used as weapons to progress the Chantry's vile agenda is hardly a point in the system's favour.

And by "vile agenda" you mean keeping the population safe from qunari and darkspawn. Alrighty then.
If the mages don't want the free food, I'm sure the peasants will be more than happy to take it.

Those fancy beds probably make all the rape much more enjoyable. Assuming they weren't sold off years ago.

Circle of Ferelden, not a single mention of rape.
Circle of Orlais, not a single mention of rape.
Circle of Kirkwall, two confirmed templar rapists.

In all of the franchise, we hear of two templars raping mages. This whole rape thing is seriously blown out of proportions.
Were I a pro-mage, I would probrably focus on the fact that for a Circle mage to live past 30 without being emotionally neutered, s/he will have to fight a demon alone rather than focus something extremely rare as templars raping mages. It's not as if non-mages are 100% safe from being raped.

I thought all this time that what mages wanted was a modicum of control over their own lives. But I guess all we needed to gloss over this issue was marble floors and the occasional tapestry.

And I thought we were discussing the luxuries of life in the Circle and who provides it, mages or the Chantry; not the matter of control over one's life which is an entirely different avenue of debate.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 06:55 .

[azarhal]

Xilizhra wrote...

And the fact that they sent a single old blind guy to investigate should tell you how much the Denerim templars cared.

hmm, wasn't Ser Otto investigating because he felt "corruption", I wasn't an order or an official investigation. Just like Emeric in DA2, now that I think of it.

[Xilizhra]

Treatment of mages is not the sole determining factor when deciding the moral character of someone.
This was a truly sefless and noble act from selfless and noble templars. Ser Bryant even shrugs Morrigan off to focus on the mass of walking death coming in their direction which does mean he has his priorities straight.

Not sole, but extremely important when you're in the position of oppressing mages. And it's the bare minimum required of them to not be complete hypocrites.

Civil War. Blight. I'm going to guess the old, blind guy was the only one they could spare.

They weren't involved in the civil war, and in my own game were also not involved with the Blight.

Circle of Ferelden, not a single mention of rape.

Anders mentions it happening.

Circle of Orlais, not a single mention of rape.

I believe you're incorrect there, though I'll need to reread.

[Saibh]

Preferably I would like to see the Circle remain intact as a mandatory school for mages. Once they finish their apprenticeship, they are evaluated to determine whether they are a potential threat to society, and released if they are not. If they are, they stay on until they can establish they are not susceptible to possession and can control their magic, or else they remain at the Circle Tower. Possibly with an additional reevaluation for all mages once every established time period. Mages are free to stay at the Circle tower (indeed, it would be necessary in order to teach and I imagine most would choose to stay anyway). Templars remain on as a preferably non-religious police organization with their barracks stationed outside of the Tower. Essentially responding to distress calls from the Tower as regular police do, without needing to actually live inside your house and home in order to do so. Campus police, if you will.

I suppose that counts as coexistence.

Modifié par Saibh, 03 mai 2013 - 07:18 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
They weren't involved in the civil war, and in my own game were also not involved with the Blight.

There is no Circle in Denerim. I suspect the templars wouldn't be standing around while the country tears itself apart and the Darkspawn destroy everything in their path.
For instance, regardless of whether the Circle was saved, you can see at least one templar fighting in Denerim after the Archdemon is slain.

Anders mentions it happening.

I assume you mean his conversation with Sebastian. He does not mention it happening in Ferelden, he could just as easily be talking about Kirkwall.

I believe you're incorrect there, though I'll need to reread.

I'm quite sure there is no mention of any rape in either Asunder or Dawn of the Seeker.

[EdwinLi]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders mentions it happening.

I assume you mean his conversation with Sebastian. He does not mention it happening in Ferelden, he could just as easily be talking about Kirkwall.

Ya it has been mentioned Ferelden's circle has been more lenient than other circles even before Alistair or Anora became the rule of Ferelden

[Barquiel]

I could never bring myself to side with the templars because it isn't right to deprive innocents of their freedom (even if it seems to be for the greater good). It is the common link of oppression and hopelessness which is leading mages to turn to desperate measures.

The templar order as it is needs to be abolished and there should be some new organization to police those mages who do wrong, and not to imprison all who show the potential to possibly do harm.

Modifié par Barquiel, 03 mai 2013 - 07:23 .

[Xilizhra]

There is no Circle in Denerim. I suspect the templars wouldn't be standing around while the country tears itself apart and the Darkspawn destroy everything in their path.
For instance, regardless of whether the Circle was saved, you can see at least one templar fighting in Denerim after the Archdemon is slain.

They're guarding Chantry holdings.

I assume you mean his conversation with Sebastian. He does not mention it happening in Ferelden, he could just as easily be talking about Kirkwall.

"That does happen, but I've been fortunate." Given that he's never been in the Kirkwall Circle, the only "fortunate" thing he can be referring to is his own time in the Circle.

I'm quite sure there is no mention of any rape in either Asunder or Dawn of the Seeker.

I'll look, but there is leaving children to die alone in darkness in Asunder.

[Noctis Augustus]

azarhal wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And the fact that they sent a single old blind guy to investigate should tell you how much the Denerim templars cared.

hmm, wasn't Ser Otto investigating because he felt "corruption", I wasn't an order or an official investigation. Just like Emeric in DA2, now that I think of it.

It was in the alienage. Isn't "the chantry doesn't care about lowly races" a fact?

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 07:38 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
They're guarding Chantry holdings.

Two are. And one is incapable of doing anything else. I'd expect the more able bodied Denerim templars are out fighting darkspawn, helping in evacuations, etc.

"That does happen, but I've been fortunate." Given that he's never been in the Kirkwall Circle, the only "fortunate" thing he can be referring to is his own time in the Circle.

"I've been fortunate I was in Ferelden and not Kirkwall... I've been fortunate the templars in Ferelden were not rapists... I've been fortunate Gregoir bothered to control his templars."
Since he is not being specific, there is no reason to believe he means "Mages were raped in Ferelden but I've been fortunate not to."

I'll look, but there is leaving children to die alone in darkness in Asunder.

And there is bleeding children at parties to entertain guests in Tevinter. At least Cole's death was an accident.

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
It was in the alienage. Isn't "the chantry doesn't care about lowly races" a fact?

No, "World of Thedas" states that the Chantry feels the non-humans are further from the Maker which makes them all the more worth saving.
The Chantry sheltered and fed Casteless in Orzammar. A Sister of the Chantry was the only one to speak against Vaughan's intentions. There is an elven priest in Starkhaven.
The Chantry has nothing against non-humans, they just wish to convert them.
There was a civil war and a Blight happening. I'd expect they'd have bigger things to worry about.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 07:44 .

[Xilizhra]

Two are. And one is incapable of doing anything else. I'd expect the more able bodied Denerim templars are out fighting darkspawn, helping in evacuations, etc.

It could go either way, we don't see anything regardless.

"I've been fortunate I was in Ferelden and not Kirkwall... I've been fortunate the templars in Ferelden were not rapists... I've been fortunate Gregoir bothered to control his templars."
Since he is not being specific, there is no reason to believe he means "Mages were raped in Ferelden but I've been fortunate not to."

You're reaching so hard I can hear tendons snapping. This requires a much longer and more convoluted conversational stretch to assume that he's saying.

And there is bleeding children at parties to entertain guests in Tevinter. At least Cole's death was an accident.

Rather a non sequitur, that.

A Sister of the Chantry was the only one to speak against Vaughan's intentions.

She was the only other human present who wasn't in Vaughan's party.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 mai 2013 - 07:50 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
It was in the alienage. Isn't "the chantry doesn't care about lowly races" a fact?

No, "World of Thedas" states that the Chantry feels the non-humans are further from the Maker which makes them all the more worth saving.
The Chantry sheltered and fed Casteless in Orzammar. A Sister of the Chantry was the only one to speak against Vaughan's intentions. There is an elven priest in Starkhaven.
The Chantry has nothing against non-humans, they just wish to convert them.
There was a civil war and a Blight happening. I'd expect they'd have bigger things to worry about.

Sure, call it that.


There has to be a connection as to why elves are treated like a lowly race in chantry nations and not on the rest. There is a factor common in them, the chantry. I'm not about to treat it as a coincedence.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You're reaching so hard I can hear tendons snapping. This requires a much longer and more convoluted conversational stretch to assume that he's saying.

On the contrary. I'm not assuming anything from three words, that's my entire point.
You are the one assuming that he is specifically talking of violations happening in Ferelden despite there being not a single mention in no game or book, not even in the Magi Origin.

Rather a non sequitur, that.

Cole's death is also unrelated to the frequency of rapes happening in Circles which was the topic of the discussion.
If you can just throw a wrongdoing by the templars at my face, I can do the same with the mages.

She was the only other human present who wasn't in Vaughan's party.

Duncan. And we're not discussing humans, we are discussing the Chantry. She was willing to perform the wedding and she was outraged by Vaughan's suggestions.

And she almost was the victim of elven violence afterwards despite this which is worth noting.

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Sure, call it that.
There has to be a connection as to why elves are treated like a lowly race in chantry nations and not on the rest. There is a factor common in them, the chantry. I'm not about to treat it as a coincedence.

"The World of Thedas" calls it that.
Racial issues and religion issues are not, necessarely, connected. Their low living conditions is because they are living under human rule and there is a story of human/elven animosity that dates back to Tevinter, long before there was a Chantry. Don't just grab every social ill Thedas suffers from and drop it on the Chantry's doorstep.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 08:04 .

[LobselVith8]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Sure, call it that.

There has to be a connection as to why elves are treated like a lowly race in chantry nations and not on the rest. There is a factor common in them, the chantry. I'm not about to treat it as a coincedence.

Well, the people in the kingdom of the Dales were "heathens" who worshipped the Creators, rather than the Maker. The Dalish claim the war started because the elves wouldn't convert. The Chantry hunts the Dalish through their templars. They aren't tolerant of other religions. The Chantry led armies wiped out entire towns of people that converted to the Qun during the New Exalted Marches.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 mai 2013 - 08:14 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Sure, call it that.
There has to be a connection as to why elves are treated like a lowly race in chantry nations and not on the rest. There is a factor common in them, the chantry. I'm not about to treat it as a coincedence.

"The World of Thedas" calls it that.
Racial issues and religion issues are not, necessarely, connected. Their low living conditions is because they are living under human rule and there is a story of human/elven animosity that dates back to Tevinter, long before there was a Chantry. Don't just grab every social ill Thedas suffers from and drop it on the Chantry's doorstep.

Then use quotation marks.
Yet citizen elves in Tevinter are equal to citizen humans. The difference lies on the chantry nations. Tevinter and the Qunari do not share that mentality.

"Don't just grab every social ill Thedas suffers from and drop it on the Chantry's doorstep"

The chantry is not just a religion, it has great power. Chantry nations are comparable to Islamic nations irl. So of course I'm going to drop every "social ill" chantry nations suffer on the chantry's doorstep.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 08:23 .

[Xilizhra]

On the contrary. I'm not assuming anything from three words, that's my entire point.
You are the one assuming that he is specifically talking of violations happening in Ferelden despite there being not a single mention in no game or book, not even in the Magi Origin.

The context of the quote makes it make no sense if rape only ever happens in Kirkwall.

Cole's death is also unrelated to the frequency of rapes happening in Circles which was the topic of the discussion.
If you can just throw a wrongdoing by the templars at my face, I can do the same with the mages.

A wrongdoing by the actual mages we were talking about instead of a completely unrelated group might be nice.

Duncan. And we're not discussing humans, we are discussing the Chantry. She was willing to perform the wedding and she was outraged by Vaughan's suggestions.

Duncan passed his sword along so that the PC could escape, which is far more help than the sister provided. And she seemed mostly annoyed that any wedding was being disrupted.

[Noctis Augustus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Sure, call it that.

There has to be a connection as to why elves are treated like a lowly race in chantry nations and not on the rest. There is a factor common in them, the chantry. I'm not about to treat it as a coincedence.

Well, the people in the kingdom of the Dales were "heathens" who worshipped the Creators, rather than the Maker. The Dalish claim the war started because the elves wouldn't convert. The Chantry hunts the Dalish through their templars. They aren't tolerant of other religions. The Chantry led armies wiped out entire towns of people that converted to the Qun during the New Exalted Marches.

I was being rethorical. I know that fully well.

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Then use quotation marks.
Yet citizen elves in Tevinter are equal to citizen humans. The difference lies on the chantry nations. Tevinter and the Qunari do not share that mentality.

Tevinter is the very nation that extablished elves as the slave class of the empire. While, in theory, magical elves can improve their lot, the free men and women of Tevinter; mages and non-mages; are overwhelmingly human. And yes, that's in the book.
Therefore, elves and humans are as much equal in Tevinter as they are in any other Andrastian nation. Thecnically, there is not a single law diferentiating humans and elves. But there is an overwhelming pro-human bias.

The chantry is not just a religion, it has great power. It is comparable to Islamic nations irl. So of course I'm going to drop every "social ill" chantry nations suffer on the chantry's doorstep.

Humanity is not an hive mind and it's not the Chantry's fault that there are racist people. Also, it's not the Chantry's obligation to manage the infrastructure of an alienage, for instance. That falls upon the King.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The context of the quote makes it make no sense if rape only ever happens in Kirkwall.

The context of the quote makes complete sense even if rape only ever happens in Kirkwall. I've already given other options that work just as fine.

A wrongdoing by the actual mages we were talking about instead of a completely unrelated group might be nice.

Why? You're happy to group all templars together.
A mage tried to assassinate the Divine.

Duncan passed his sword along so that the PC could escape, which is far more help than the sister provided.

Vaughan was so bold exactly because the important figures of Denerim such as the Grand Cleric were in Ostagar.

And she seemed mostly annoyed that any wedding was being disrupted.

Now that is some serious straining. "Please milord, save the gangrape for after the ceremony." C'mon, that is ridiculous.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 mai 2013 - 08:32 .