353 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

Qunari only deal with certainties, to beat them is by using uncertainties

When Arishok set the rule, 'the demand of the Qun", he set the certainties. So no matter what Arishok win because he have set all the possibilities in his own rule. Those possibilities are "the demand of the Qun"

Hawke is a Qunari when following what Arishok have set in him/her path

i. you must return the book - the book returned or not returned are certainties
ii . you must give Isabella - agree or not are certainties
iii. if you don't agree you must duel with me - agree or not are both certainties, win or loose are certainties

It all become certainties because Arishok "expect it"

The only way Hawke want to win without becoming a Qunari is get in the Viscount Keep and royal rumble, no talk, no diplomacy, do not bow to the "demand of the Qun"/Arishok set rules, dealing with uncertainties...in other word GAMBLE

For a Qunari, "there is no chance there is only certainty", to beat them is by using "chance"/gambling

Edit : If you have "Worthy Rival" achievement, you are a Qunari lol (i have it too)

Modifié par Qistina, 04 mai 2013 - 05:57 .

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...

Qunari only deal with certainties, to beat them is by using uncertainties

When Arishok set the rule, 'the demand of the Qun", he set the certainties. So no matter what Arishok win because he have set all the possibilities in his own rule. Those possibilities are "the demand of the Qun"

Hawke is a Qunari when following what Arishok have set in him/her path

i. you must return the book - the book returned or not returned are certainties
ii . you must give Isabella - agree or not are certainties
iii. if you don't agree you must duel with me - agree or not are both certainties, win or loose are certainties

It all become certainties because Arishok "expect it"

The only way Hawke want to win without becoming a Qunari is get in the Viscount Keep and royal rumble, no talk, no diplomacy, do not bow to the "demand of the Qun"/Arishok set rules, dealing with uncertainties...in other word GAMBLE

For a Qunari, "there is no chance there is only certainty", to beat them is by using "chance"/gambling

Edit : If you have "Worthy Rival" achievement, you are a Qunari lol (i have it too)

You're not. Hawke, in this case, reaches, in the qunari's point of view, the highest level of respect a non-qunari could reach in the eyes of the qunari. In their perspective, he isn't that different from them, and could easily accept the Qun, but they don't consider him a qunari.

[Addai]

I'd prefer not to have another plot where the rabid anti-religious get to take out revenge fantasies. Mage-templar war, hello.

Find it a little creepy that people are so eager to engage in massive, violent interventions against ideologies they don't like. It's just religious war by another name.

[BouncyFrag]

Filament wrote...

Elves are just qunari waiting to happen anyways.

Can't argue with that.

[The Elder King]

Addai67 wrote...

I'd prefer not to have another plot where the rabid anti-religious get to take out revenge fantasies. Mage-templar war, hello.

Find it a little creepy that people are so eager to engage in massive, violent interventions against ideologies they don't like. It's just religious war by another name.

You could switch the Chantry with a non-religious organization, and the pro-mages (at least, in my opinion, the majority of them) would've reacted in the same way. They believe that mages should be free and not lock in Circles, regardless of the fact that the organization that have them in the Circles is religious or not. Have the Circle system being realized by an atheist, anti-religious organization, they'd still be against it.
It's true that a player with anti-religious view in RL could take out his/her revenge fantasies (though it should be noted that Bioware separated the main religious organization from the militant branch, and I doubt that the player will have the option to destroy the Chantry, which would disappoint those with anti-religious view), but that doesn't mean that every (of the majority of them) pro-mages support this side for taking out a religous organization.
I'm more troubled by the fact that this conflict resembles too much for my tastes the organics-synthetics conflict in ME. Let's just hope that they'll not go in the same route the ME team did.

[Xilizhra]

Addai67 wrote...

I'd prefer not to have another plot where the rabid anti-religious get to take out revenge fantasies. Mage-templar war, hello.

Find it a little creepy that people are so eager to engage in massive, violent interventions against ideologies they don't like. It's just religious war by another name.

Ironically, the Qun itself is a philosophy for the rabid anti-religious. But that's not the point. The point is that the Templar Order is utterly evil, and the Chantry follows it in simply enabling it (although things may have changed by this point).

[robertthebard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That wasn't the Chantry who crushed the Dalish. That was Orlais using the Chantry to get reinforcements from the other nations.

No.  Orlais was getting their ass handed to them, apparently, and the Chantry declared an Exalted March.  This of course ignores entries in the wiki, and Leliana's accounting of what happened when the Chantry tried to establish itself in the Dales.  After all, if that corner of the world isn't singing the Chant, then humans can't be forgiven for their sins.

Those who oppose thee
Shall know the wrath of heaven.
Field and forest shall burn,
The seas shall rise and devour them,
The wind shall tear their nations
From the face of the earth,
Lightning shall rain down from the sky,
They shall cry out to their false gods,
And find silence.
-Andraste 7:19[2]

Interesting passage, eh?

[MisterJB]

robertthebard wrote...
No.  Orlais was getting their ass handed to them, apparently, and the Chantry declared an Exalted March.

And you don't think the elves burning Orlais to the ground justified an Exalthed March to make them stop?

After all, if that corner of the world isn't singing the Chant, then humans can't be forgiven for their sins.

And if all the humans aren't gone, the elves can't regain their immortality.
As far as intolerance goes, at least the Chantry's is only religious.

Interesting passage, eh?

Taken completely out of context too. That was the Maker telling Andraste He would help her fight Tevinter.

[The Elder King]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ironically, the Qun itself is a philosophy for the rabid anti-religious. But that's not the point. The point is that the Templar Order is utterly evil, and the Chantry follows it in simply enabling it (although things may have changed by this point).

Well, their goal are different. I doubt that the mages would easily talk with the Chantry, but the latter and the templars are two different things now.
I'm curious to see where the Inquisition will fit in this mess.

[robertthebard]

MisterJB wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
No.  Orlais was getting their ass handed to them, apparently, and the Chantry declared an Exalted March.

And you don't think the elves burning Orlais to the ground justified an Exalthed March to make them stop?

After all, if that corner of the world isn't singing the Chant, then humans can't be forgiven for their sins.

And if all the humans aren't gone, the elves can't regain their immortality.
As far as intolerance goes, at least the Chantry's is only religious.

Interesting passage, eh?

Taken completely out of context too. That was the Maker telling Andraste He would help her fight Tevinter.

Why did they feel the need to get involved in a purely political war, if that's what it was?  Oh yeah, because of the "out of context" passage from the Chant, you know, the basis for their religion.  The thing they have to have sung from all corners of the world before the Maker forgives the sins of humans.  The Maker was denied access to the Dales, Exalted March.  Since when is religious intolerance acceptable?  Since it's practiced by the Chantry?  Isn't religious intolerance one of the reasons for the OP to wipe out the Qun?  Stands to reason that if religious intolerance is bad, then it's bad no matter who practices it.

I don't begrudge people the right to practice their religions, no matter what it is, but if they show up at my door trying to force me to convert, or attempting to "burn the Heathen at the stake", I'm taking as many of them with me as I can.  You want to worship the Maker, fine, do it over there, but you're not doing it in my home.  Sadly, while I see that as honoring their right to worship the Maker, leaving me free for whatever, the Chantry sees that as denying the Maker, thus opposing Him, thus justifying enacting that passage all over again.  You claim out of context, I claim justification to declare an Exalted March.

[MisterJB]

robertthebard wrote...
Why did they feel the need to get involved in a purely political war, if that's what it was?  Oh yeah, because of the "out of context" passage from the Chant, you know, the basis for their religion.  The thing they have to have sung from all corners of the world before the Maker forgives the sins of humans.  The Maker was denied access to the Dales, Exalted March.  Since when is religious intolerance acceptable?  Since it's practiced by the Chantry?  Isn't religious intolerance one of the reasons for the OP to wipe out the Qun?  Stands to reason that if religious intolerance is bad, then it's bad no matter who practices it.

I don't begrudge people the right to practice their religions, no matter what it is, but if they show up at my door trying to force me to convert, or attempting to "burn the Heathen at the stake", I'm taking as many of them with me as I can.  You want to worship the Maker, fine, do it over there, but you're not doing it in my home.  Sadly, while I see that as honoring their right to worship the Maker, leaving me free for whatever, the Chantry sees that as denying the Maker, thus opposing Him, thus justifying enacting that passage all over again.  You claim out of context, I claim justification to declare an Exalted March.

Yes, the Chantry wishes for the Chant to be sung from all the corners of the world. but, from what we have seen, their methods of spreading their faith are mostly peaceful.

In Ferelden, we saw missionaries being sent to the Chansind. In Orzammar, more missionaries who spread their fath by preaching, sheltering and feeding the Casteless. In Ferelden itself, page 47 of "The World of Thedas" states that the Chantry does not demand the removal of promote hatred against the old gods of the alamarri (Fereldans' ancestors), the Maker simply stands above them. The Grey Wardens converted because Drakon helped the Anderfels against the Darkspawn.
And we are also told that the Chantry sent missionaries to the Dales to spread the Andrastian faith. This is not a forceful attempt at conversion, the missionaries would have simply preached to whoever would listen and that was it. But the elves closed their borders on the basis that humans are disease spreading rats; which is why I said that as far as intolerance goes, the dalish have the Chantry beaten.

The Exalted March was not called because the elves refused to convert. The March was called only as the elves marched upon Val-Royeaux which is the seat of the Chantry and which they eventually sacked. Had the Divine packed her bags and left, people would accuse her of deserting their flock.
Instead, she called for a March to defend the faith and humanity itself and people acuse her of not being politically neutral. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you try to destroy the greatest human nation in Thedas and sack the seat of their religion, don't cry "foul" and act surprised if the humans have something to say about it.

And BTW, the Chantry has never burned anyone at the stake, that was Tevinter. People need to let the real world baggage go.

[LilyasAvalon]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

The Qun is an idea.

That idea is not so easily destroyed.

[Silfren]

Addai67 wrote...

I'd prefer not to have another plot where the rabid anti-religious get to take out revenge fantasies. Mage-templar war, hello.

Find it a little creepy that people are so eager to engage in massive, violent interventions against ideologies they don't like. It's just religious war by another name.

I don't think it's fair to categorize us all as merely the anti-religious.  I've seen SOME people post things that qualify them has having that label, but from what I've seen, most of us are not anti-religious; rather, we're anti-religious-institution-using-its-political-and-military-power-to-control-the-world-through-dogma. 

Religion on its own can be harmful but not necessarily so.  The other, on the other hand, does far more harm than any good, and in several ways.  Perhaps you can't see that because you are pro-religion and feel
personally attacked whenever people make a statement against religion, but it is disingenuous to dismiss most people's issues as being the former when we are much more specifically and precisely the latter. Generally, most of us object to the Chantry because it is as much a political body as it is a religious one, and has its own standing army to further its aims.  People who attack it certainly aren't doing so because they equate it with the real life corner church on Main Street.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Why did they feel the need to get involved in a purely political war, if that's what it was?  Oh yeah, because of the "out of context" passage from the Chant, you know, the basis for their religion.  The thing they have to have sung from all corners of the world before the Maker forgives the sins of humans.  The Maker was denied access to the Dales, Exalted March.  Since when is religious intolerance acceptable?  Since it's practiced by the Chantry?  Isn't religious intolerance one of the reasons for the OP to wipe out the Qun?  Stands to reason that if religious intolerance is bad, then it's bad no matter who practices it.

I don't begrudge people the right to practice their religions, no matter what it is, but if they show up at my door trying to force me to convert, or attempting to "burn the Heathen at the stake", I'm taking as many of them with me as I can.  You want to worship the Maker, fine, do it over there, but you're not doing it in my home.  Sadly, while I see that as honoring their right to worship the Maker, leaving me free for whatever, the Chantry sees that as denying the Maker, thus opposing Him, thus justifying enacting that passage all over again.  You claim out of context, I claim justification to declare an Exalted March.

Yes, the Chantry wishes for the Chant to be sung from all the corners of the world. but, from what we have seen, their methods of spreading their faith are mostly peaceful.

In Ferelden, we saw missionaries being sent to the Chansind. In Orzammar, more missionaries who spread their fath by preaching, sheltering and feeding the Casteless. In Ferelden itself, page 47 of "The World of Thedas" states that the Chantry does not demand the removal of promote hatred against the old gods of the alamarri (Fereldans' ancestors), the Maker simply stands above them. The Grey Wardens converted because Drakon helped the Anderfels against the Darkspawn.
And we are also told that the Chantry sent missionaries to the Dales to spread the Andrastian faith. This is not a forceful attempt at conversion, the missionaries would have simply preached to whoever would listen and that was it. But the elves closed their borders on the basis that humans are disease spreading rats; which is why I said that as far as intolerance goes, the dalish have the Chantry beaten.

The Exalted March was not called because the elves refused to convert. The March was called only as the elves marched upon Val-Royeaux which is the seat of the Chantry and which they eventually sacked. Had the Divine packed her bags and left, people would accuse her of deserting their flock.
Instead, she called for a March to defend the faith and humanity itself and people acuse her of not being politically neutral. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
If you try to destroy the greatest human nation in Thedas and sack the seat of their religion, don't cry "foul" and act surprised if the humans have something to say about it.

And BTW, the Chantry has never burned anyone at the stake, that was Tevinter. People need to let the real world baggage go.

And maybe you need to acknowledge that the Chantry's actions have enough real world parallels that our objections and criticisms are valid. 

I wouldn't go thinking that the Chantry is totally innocent of ever using violence as a response to its religious aims, though.  http://dragonage.wik...omerryn_Accords

Note the part where, when the Rivain Chantry couldn't return people to worshipping the Maker, they decided to slaughter them instead.

Modifié par Silfren, 04 mai 2013 - 01:33 .

[Xilizhra]

Instead, she called for a March to defend the faith and humanity itself and people acuse her of not being politically neutral. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

You do realize that it's different people doing the criticizing in each case, right? In any case, it's rather rich to claim that they're protecting "humanity" when it's just one, highly unpleasant nation that's been spewing out endless provocations and expansionism.

If you try to destroy the greatest human nation in Thedas and sack the seat of their religion, don't cry "foul" and act surprised if the humans have something to say about it.

Indeed. This is why Andraste was burned, after all.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Note the part where, when the Rivain Chantry couldn't return people to worshipping the Maker, they decided to slaughter them instead.

True but take into account that accord also dictated no qunari settlement was allowed outside in the mainland of which Rivain is part of. While I wouldn't advocate for mass slaugther, the qunary broke the treaty first. It's not like they are any kinder to any non-qunari in their lands.

Xilizhra wrote...
 In any case, it's rather rich to claim that
they're protecting "humanity" when it's just one, highly unpleasant
nation that's been spewing out endless provocations and expansionism.

Because, somehow, the elves are incapable of expansionism and defeating the most powerful human nation wouldn't encourage them to target the others. All in the name of "restoring their culture and immortality".

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 mai 2013 - 01:51 .

[Noctis Augustus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No Orlais can't. But it can influence the Divine, to do as Orlais wants. It is called politics.

Oh? In that case it's not the chantry's fault at all! They were being used by the big bad emperor. Stop being so naive.

[Xilizhra]

If people rebel against that, it's mostly because they are kids (and you shouldn't be surprised seeing them here.. lots of gamers are young). When you're young, you're more optimistic, living in the present, not big picture oriented, not concerned with freedoms as a whole, but freedom for yourself. Anything that opposes that is tyrannical, in one or another. I don't think it really has anything to do with religion. At best, religion is just a symbolic target for this energy.

And yet, many of the most famous advocates and fighters for liberty have been pretty old. The US Framers, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela... shall I continue? Ultimately, the problem with the Chantry is that it A. has no place restricting freedoms to begin with, being a religion, and B. is remarkably bigoted and xenophobic in how it enforces that.

Because, somehow, the elves are incapable of expansionism and defeating
the most powerful human nation wouldn't encourage them to target the
others. All in the name of "restoring their culture and immortality".

They're isolationists, they wouldn't need to expand unless other forces kept attacking them.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 mai 2013 - 01:53 .

[The Elder King]

Seraph Cross wrote...

Why have an option to eradicate the Qun when this game is about the mages and templars?

We don't know if it'll be around this. I personally don't think it'll be the main plot.
Though I believe that the Qunari invasion will happen sooner or later.

[Dave of Canada]

Silfren wrote...

And maybe you need to acknowledge that the Chantry's actions have enough real world parallels that our objections and criticisms are valid. 

And that's when the anti-religion comments come in, everyone goes about how evil christianity and such are but when it's mentioned, people always backpedal and claim "stop claiming we're anti-religion!". It's like that one poster who hated western civilization and kept calling every other religion aside from her own ignorant and cruel but she was being defended by most mage posters with the very same reasoning.

There's a line that needs to be drawn, biases from real world experiences are influencing a lot of these discussions in favor of pro-mage and it irritates anyone who's trying to be pro-Chantry/Templar. You can't keep claiming "we don't hate religion" when everyone--including the writers--sees most of these arguments being driven by such.