353 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

robertthebard wrote...
Again, let's ignore the lore to set up your "the Chantry is an altruistic organization that only cares about feeding the homeless" rhetoric?

Your baseless one line posts are not doing a good job of extablishing a counterargument.

Let's go by parts then.
The elven legends tells us elves were immortal but they lost it because of spending time with humans. However, there is no evidence of this. Not only have almost all written elven texts been destroyed and forgotten, but neither biological immortality nor "dying by human proximity" are characteristics exhibited by any other creature on Thedas. There are ingame characters, like Nathaniel, who question this as well so, it's not an accepted truth in Thedas?
Therefore, why should I believe the elves?

Brother Burkel in Orzammar does nothing but help people which attracts willing converts. Therefore, what part of this constitutes as an "infiltration" and why is it undesirable?

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 mai 2013 - 04:28 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Again, let's ignore the lore to set up your "the Chantry is an altruistic organization that only cares about feeding the homeless" rhetoric?

Your baseless one line posts are not doing a good job of extablishing a counterargument.

Let's go by parts then.
The elven legends tells us elves were immortal but they lost it because of spending time with humans. However, there is no evidence of this. Not only have almost all written elven texts been destroyed and forgotten, but neither biological immortality nor "dying by human proximity" are characteristics exhibited by any other creature on Thedas. There are ingame characters, like Nathaniel, who question this as well so, it's not an accepted truth in Thedas?
Therefore, why should I believe the elves?

Brother Burkel in Orzammar does nothing but help people which attracts willing converts. Therefore, what part of this constitutes as an "infiltration" and why is it undesirable?

"They were joined by elves from across Thedas and began the task of restoring their lost language, religion and lore"

There's nothing saying they isolated themselves to gain immortality.

[The Hierophant]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Really? I've never seen anyone state thatReally? I've never seen anyone state that their irl views on religion affects their stance on the DA universe.

ibbikiookami wrote...
I hate Christianity and Islamism and I like Roman Polytheism,  Shintoism and Buddhism. I'm Atheist. You're telling me I'm anti-religion? There's a difference between anti-christianity and anti-religion you do know that don't you? In the DA universe I like the Old Gods and hate Andrastianism. Am I still anti-religion?

So the Chantry's similarities to Catholicism/Christianity's history plays no part in your criticisms?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 mai 2013 - 04:46 .

[Noctis Augustus]

The Hierophant wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Really? I've never seen anyone state that their irl views on religion affects their stance on the DA universe.

ibbikiookami wrote...
I hate Christianity and Islamism and I like Roman Polytheism,  Shintoism and Buddhism. I'm Atheist. You're telling me I'm anti-religion? There's a difference between anti-christianity and anti-religion you do know that don't you? In the DA universe I like the Old Gods and hate Andrastianism. Am I still anti-religion?

So the Chantry's similarities to Catholicism/Christianity's history plays no part in your criticisms?

No. Some reasons why I hate modern catholicism can be applied to the chantry. But when I play a game, I don't carry the luggage of real life. I judge and criticize the virtual concepts without considering real life similarities. Of course when two things are similar, what I dislike in one I will dislike in the other but the same can be said of everyone, pro-templars included.

[The Hierophant]

ibbikiookami wrote...

No. Some reasons why I hate modern catholicism can be applied to the chantry. But when I play a game, I don't carry the luggage of real life. I judge and criticize the virtual concepts without considering real life similarities. Of course when two things are similar, what I dislike in one I will dislike in the other but the same can be said of everyone, pro-templars included.

That's what's up, i respect that outlook.

[Sylvanpyxie]

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Qun

That would be quite an undertaking, practically impossible to do single handed... Still it would be nice to have the chance to at least combat the Qunari's agenda. I was rather annoyed when the opportunity for my Anti-Qun Hawkes to strike a blow to the Qunari was overlooked for MotA.

The Qun is a philosophy, an idea, so you'll never be able to completely destroy it... But as long as the option to combat it is there, I'll be happy. I don't like my characters being shoe-horned into assisting the Qunari's agenda, especially when they would gladly strike at any given opportunity.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 04 mai 2013 - 05:25 .

[Noctis Augustus]

StreetMagic wrote...

I really don't see how anyone could actually prefer the Old Gods to the Chantry. Some of the Old Gods were gods of slavery and chaos. Like that's what they actually oversaw. "God of Slavery". They're intentionally written to be lame.

You mean Andoral. That's because slavery is a part of their civilization.

• Dumat, the Dragon of Silence
• Zazikel, the Dragon of Chaos
• Toth, the Dragon of Fire
• Andoral, the Dragon of Slaves
• Urthemiel, the Dragon of Beauty
• Razikale, the Dragon of Mystery
• Lusacan, the Dragon of Night

I find them fascinating. Saying they're lame only shows your narrow mentality.

[Noctis Augustus]

StreetMagic wrote...

I'm not narrow, nor does slavery have anything to do with culture. It isn't a creation of "culture". It's a creation of employers who wish to increase their profit by not paying employees. The motivation behind it is simple mathematics. There's nothing complicated or cultural about it. Instead of investing in innovation, marketing, or better production methods, the age old way of making a profitable business was to keep all the money for yourself and whip your employees. So not only is it unjust, it lacks imagination. It lacks the ability of creating of product that will increase profit by it's own virtue.

What? You have a serious misunderstanding of what slavery was like in ancient times.


Edit: Nevermind. I was the one who misunderstood you. Yeah, you're right.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 04 mai 2013 - 06:10 .

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...

Religion on its own can be harmful but not necessarily so.  The other, on the other hand, does far more harm than any good, and in several ways.  Perhaps you can't see that because you are pro-religion and feel
personally attacked whenever people make a statement against religion, but it is disingenuous to dismiss most people's issues as being the former when we are much more specifically and precisely the latter. Generally, most of us object to the Chantry because it is as much a political body as it is a religious one, and has its own standing army to further its aims.  People who attack it certainly aren't doing so because they equate it with the real life corner church on Main Street.

And saying you want to forcefully eradicate it is just as bad.  A plague on both houses.  People couch it in terms of "freedom" but that is naive about how deeply woven beliefs are into a social fabric.  You can't just free people, you have to rip the fabric to shreds and re-stitch it forcefully into some ideological image you prefer.  And in the end you're just as bad as the organization you want to supplant.

[Noctis Augustus]

StreetMagic wrote...

I encourage you to clue me in about ancient times then, instead of just accusing me of knowing nothing. I mean, have some follow through. Don't just say I misunderstand.

Slavery has always been about getting "fuel" (manpower) without paying nothing for it. That's all it is. There's nothing complicated or intricately cultural about it.

Yeah, you're right. I misunderstood you.


I have nothing against it as long as law abiding citizens aren't forced into it. Everyone else is fair game, especially enemy nations.

[Tenshi]

WUT?!
i killed arishok only because i didnt want to lose a rogue.
arishok was most awesome character in whole series, and i prefer origins heavily over DA2.
also Qunari are most interesting guys in game.. you see Qun is not only religion.. its way of life and philosophy.

[Uccio]

StreetMagic wrote...

I really don't see how anyone could actually prefer the Old Gods to the Chantry. Some of the Old Gods were gods of slavery and chaos. Like that's what they actually oversaw. "God of Slavery". They're intentionally written to be lame. It's like saying you'd want wars constantly happening (God of Chaos) and CEOs taking all the pay in the world (God of Slavery). It's bad enough that there are small single wars, and CEOs get massive bonuses. To support gods of slavery and chaos means you want 10 times more of crap like that. Like actually imagine a world with a religion that empowered that type of madness. It'd be hell on earth. lol

Well mages are slaves, even they are in golden cage, so chantry supports slavery as well. 

[Silfren]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

On a sidenote, Marvel comics has had similar storylines with Mutant and Superhero registerations and the Civil War. It's the same principle. It's not about religion, but about responsibility. Having a world with no laws on magic is irresponsible. And like I said earlier, too "optimistic" about human nature. Thinking nothing could ever go wrong with that kind of power. It generally takes older people to realize that's ****g stupid. People can't be trusted. Especially the powerful.

You're generalizing. Experience/old age will never beat intelligence and wisdom. Being old doesn't equate to being wise.

Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.

Sure, but I said intelligence and wisdom not skill. Old age and treachery will never overcome intelligence and wisdom. Someone young, wise and intelligent can see the treachery.

Dude. "Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill," is a bumper sticker.  That's all.

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

Heh. The Chantry doesn't expect you to have evidence of his existence. They proclaim he's gone, remember? Only the oddballs like Leliana truly believe he's a existing force, similar to real world religious thought. I guess you could say she's a Theist, while Chantry philosophy is more Deistic. It doesn't matter where or how the Maker exists to them.

Eh, you're conflating two different things.  The Chantry claims the Maker turned his back on the world after Andraste's execution.  By suggesting that only persons like Leliana believe he's an existing force you suggest that the Chantry teaches that he isn't an existing force, but this isn't true: the only difference between Leliana's personal belief and what the Chantry teaches isn't about the nature of the Maker or whether he's an actual force, it's whether or not he abandoned the world.

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

My hypothetical points out the fallacies in the other poster's argument. But guess what? Some pro-templars HAVE expressed a postive view or support of institutionalized religion despite your attempt to imply otherwise.

Moreover, a person saying that they are anti-Chantry because their IRL views of religion color their views hardly means that they're saying "I hate the Chantry because I hate religion."

Nope. I have yet to see Dave of Canada, Mister JB or EmperorSahlertz brag that they are religious and state that it positively affects their views on the Templar, Mage, Chantry issues in contrast to the bulk of the noted anti-Chantry posters who have stated multiple times their irl views on religion affects their stance. Plus over the years i have seen the noted pro Templars admit that the Templars/Chantry are flawed and not sunshine or rainbows, yet believe that the organization's existence is a needed evil when dealing with the Qunari, Tevinter Imperium, and mage oversight.

EmpSahl isn't proof of anything but a predilection for being obtuse just for the sake of arguing.  So for the others...you're going to name exactly two people as evidence of a generalization for your assertion, but only refer to an unnamed mass to try to refute mine?  That's not how it works, sorry. 

Again, however, simply stating that one's views on religion affects their stance does NOT equate to being anti-religion.  I have no problem acknowledging that my perspective of religion colors my opinion of the Chantry.  But I am not anti-religion in the least. 

Modifié par Silfren, 04 mai 2013 - 06:56 .

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

Silfren wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Heh. The Chantry doesn't expect you to have evidence of his existence. They proclaim he's gone, remember? Only the oddballs like Leliana truly believe he's a existing force, similar to real world religious thought. I guess you could say she's a Theist, while Chantry philosophy is more Deistic. It doesn't matter where or how the Maker exists to them.

Eh, you're conflating two different things.  The Chantry claims the Maker turned his back on the world after Andraste's execution.  By suggesting that only persons like Leliana believe he's an existing force you suggest that the Chantry teaches that he isn't an existing force, but this isn't true: the only difference between Leliana's personal belief and what the Chantry teaches isn't about the nature of the Maker or whether he's an actual force, it's whether or not he abandoned the world.

I'm not trying to conflate. Just saying that for all practical purposes, they're atheistic in many ways, and deistic at best. Their belief system excuses them of ever needing to address the issue of existence. It's a non-issue. The Maker may as well not exist. And even if he does exist, he doesn't care about you anyways. He only cared about one person (Andraste). Leliana's belief is entirely different and demands a different type of faith.

Someone with a deadbeat dad might as well say they don't have a father. It's basically the same thing.

Ah.  Yes, this I can largely agree with, though I don't think the Chantry could be said to be atheistic. Deist, definitely.  I'd like to get some more in-depth lore on precisely how Andraste is viewed, actually, since she is more central to the faith than the Maker, even though the lore would strongly suggest that Andraste herself would frown at this.  It's another reason why I'd love to see Andrastianism in nations where the Orlesian Chantry is not quite so dominant.

[Silfren]

ibbikiookami wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Really? I've never seen anyone state that their irl views on religion affects their stance on the DA universe.

ibbikiookami wrote...
I hate Christianity and Islamism and I like Roman Polytheism,  Shintoism and Buddhism. I'm Atheist. You're telling me I'm anti-religion? There's a difference between anti-christianity and anti-religion you do know that don't you? In the DA universe I like the Old Gods and hate Andrastianism. Am I still anti-religion?

So the Chantry's similarities to Catholicism/Christianity's history plays no part in your criticisms?

No. Some reasons why I hate modern catholicism can be applied to the chantry. But when I play a game, I don't carry the luggage of real life. I judge and criticize the virtual concepts without considering real life similarities. Of course when two things are similar, what I dislike in one I will dislike in the other but the same can be said of everyone, pro-templars included.

This is much ado about nothing, really, but it's actually impossible to play a game without real world luggage.  None of us play games in a vacuum.  Our opinions of the story are always going to be informed by our existing biases.  There's no way around it.  The best a person can do is be conscious of their biases and how they color opinions.  Even when you make decisions diametrically opposed to your rl world view, it's still there.  You're no less affected by it when you act contrary to it.