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[Silfren]

Addai67 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Religion on its own can be harmful but not necessarily so.  The other, on the other hand, does far more harm than any good, and in several ways.  Perhaps you can't see that because you are pro-religion and feel
personally attacked whenever people make a statement against religion, but it is disingenuous to dismiss most people's issues as being the former when we are much more specifically and precisely the latter. Generally, most of us object to the Chantry because it is as much a political body as it is a religious one, and has its own standing army to further its aims.  People who attack it certainly aren't doing so because they equate it with the real life corner church on Main Street.

And saying you want to forcefully eradicate it is just as bad.  A plague on both houses.  People couch it in terms of "freedom" but that is naive about how deeply woven beliefs are into a social fabric.  You can't just free people, you have to rip the fabric to shreds and re-stitch it forcefully into some ideological image you prefer.  And in the end you're just as bad as the organization you want to supplant.

I would love to tear down the Chantry as it presently exists, but that's hardly the same thing as wanting to eradicate it.  The "it" I want to eradicate is the Chantry institution as a religio-political/military body.  I have no issues with it existing as solely a religious body whose actual purpose is providing spiritual succor to people, and any altruistic agendas it wishes to perform. 

You're right, that sweeping cultural changes do tend to require violent upheavals.  I've never denied this.  But sometimes violent reformation is the only means through which change can happen.  Bloody and chaotic as it will be, Thedas will be the better for it in the long run.  Just as our own world is.

[Silfren]

xxx2emo4Uxxx wrote...

WUT?!
i killed arishok only because i didnt want to lose a rogue.
arishok was most awesome character in whole series, and i prefer origins heavily over DA2.
also Qunari are most interesting guys in game.. you see Qun is not only religion.. its way of life and philosophy.

That statement is kind of odd.  All religions are ways of life/philosophies.  The Qun is a religion.

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah I'd like more light shed on her too. Doesn't seem like the standpoint she herself might support. Their belief system seems to be borne out of disappointment/cynicism/or just a dose of hard reality. She on the other hand sounded like an idealist. I don't think a religion could have taken off with their attitude. It sounds like a late development.

One of my favorite things about Dragon Age is just how much the whole Andraste/Chantry thing resembles the struggles between the earliest forms of Christianity right after the death of Christ.  There's obvious parallels to Gnostic forms of Christianity, especially in the so-called Dissonant Verses relating to Maferath (mainstream views of Judas versus the Gospel of Judas, anyone??). 

I'd love to get more lore on the early Maker/Andraste cults.  Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'd love to see a Luther-esque Reformation, or at least, with the Chantry's destruction as a Thedas-wide institution, other Andrastian sects come out of hiding.  I think that showing us the village of Haven in Origins was about more than just the Urn of Sacred Ashes and dragon cults; I think the point was to also show us that there are plenty of Andrastian religions out there that fall outside the auspices of Chantry doctrine in the present day, and that we can expect to see more. 

I dearly want to see what Andrastian belief looks like in Rivain, influenced as it is by local tradition as well as qunari belief.

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know if you could ever separate the chantry from politics. It's rooted in politics. In a way, it's more rooted in politics than it ever was religion. Andraste was a warring rebel leader who sought to overthrow an empire run by magisters and blood magic. The religious angle is her rebellion was fueled by spiritual outrage.. She said her god was pissed off at the current world order. Other slaves finally found a reason to fight back because of her words, and that turned into a religion. In her personal life, she was said to be contemplative, going away alone by herself for long periods and fasting. But her main issues were political. People didn't need to be spiritually rescued or find justice in the afterlife. People needed to stand up and kick the crap out of Tevinter in the present. That's political.

Definitely agreed.  You could make the same argument about at least two real world religions. 

[MisterJB]

I believe that the Chantry's status as a religio-political/military body has, in fact, been benefitial to Thedas.
The fact that their beliefs are widespread amongst the human population helps assure the presence of one Circle in each nation. And while we can argue that the Circle System has its flaws, the Chantry's control over mages has served two very benefitial purposes beyond the obvious of keeping mages from harming people:

1-The mages are politically neutral. This is important because magic is not powerful enough to discourage combat; it's no nuclear bomb; but it's just powerful enough to do great harm. Keeping the mages out of conflicts has helped prevent situations such as nobles employing blood mages and using the blood of peasants as fuel.

2-The presence of a Circle in each nation ensures that, should a non-human threat such as the Darkspawn appear, the mages can be persuaded to defend the country,

Creating this kind of international organization with representatives from every nation would be no small task. The Chantry serves a necessary purpose and I would leave it be.

[Noctis Augustus]

Silfren wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Really? I've never seen anyone state that their irl views on religion affects their stance on the DA universe.

ibbikiookami wrote...
I hate Christianity and Islamism and I like Roman Polytheism,  Shintoism and Buddhism. I'm Atheist. You're telling me I'm anti-religion? There's a difference between anti-christianity and anti-religion you do know that don't you? In the DA universe I like the Old Gods and hate Andrastianism. Am I still anti-religion?

So the Chantry's similarities to Catholicism/Christianity's history plays no part in your criticisms?

No. Some reasons why I hate modern catholicism can be applied to the chantry. But when I play a game, I don't carry the luggage of real life. I judge and criticize the virtual concepts without considering real life similarities. Of course when two things are similar, what I dislike in one I will dislike in the other but the same can be said of everyone, pro-templars included.

This is much ado about nothing, really, but it's actually impossible to play a game without real world luggage.  None of us play games in a vacuum.  Our opinions of the story are always going to be informed by our existing biases.  There's no way around it.  The best a person can do is be conscious of their biases and how they color opinions.  Even when you make decisions diametrically opposed to your rl world view, it's still there.  You're no less affected by it when you act contrary to it. 

That's not what I meant.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

I believe that the Chantry's status as a religio-political/military body has, in fact, been benefitial to Thedas.
The fact that their beliefs are widespread amongst the human population helps assure the presence of one Circle in each nation. And while we can argue that the Circle System has its flaws, the Chantry's control over mages has served two very benefitial purposes beyond the obvious of keeping mages from harming people:

1-The mages are politically neutral. This is important because magic is not powerful enough to discourage combat; it's no nuclear bomb; but it's just powerful enough to do great harm. Keeping the mages out of conflicts has helped prevent situations such as nobles employing blood mages and using the blood of peasants as fuel.

2-The presence of a Circle in each nation ensures that, should a non-human threat such as the Darkspawn appear, the mages can be persuaded to defend the country,

Creating this kind of international organization with representatives from every nation would be no small task. The Chantry serves a necessary purpose and I would leave it be.

Perhaps you would, but I'm not sure that'll be an option in DA3.  Given the current state of things, I'm not sure the Chantry could be re-instated in its previous form.  I think that SOME kind of major reformation is going to happen regardless of our decisions.  Not when you consider the internal conflict within the Chantry itself.  The Lord Seeker declared the Templars independent.  Not all Templars and Seekers will follow him, I'm sure:  There will be those who are loyal to Justinia herself, as well as those who are loyal to the Chantry (but not Justinia) and don't want to join Lambert's desertion.  Other factions are sure to arise as well.  At least if it is in any way realistic at all.

[sandalisthemaker]

Hey guys, tone it down with the real life religious discussion.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Perhaps you would, but I'm not sure that'll be an option in DA3.  Given the current state of things, I'm not sure the Chantry could be re-instated in its previous form.  I think that SOME kind of major reformation is going to happen regardless of our decisions.  Not when you consider the internal conflict within the Chantry itself.  The Lord Seeker declared the Templars independent.  Not all Templars and Seekers will follow him, I'm sure:  There will be those who are loyal to Justinia herself, as well as those who are loyal to the Chantry (but not Justinia) and don't want to join Lambert's desertion.  Other factions are sure to arise as well.  At least if it is in any way realistic at all.

Well, I agree. It's obvious that the Chantry will undergo some reformation in DAI regardless of our choices. Suffice it to say, I would support a working relationship between the Chantry and the Circle over giving authority over mages to the state as some have suggested in the past.

[Addai]

Silfren wrote...
I'd love to get more lore on the early Maker/Andraste cults.  Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'd love to see a Luther-esque Reformation, or at least, with the Chantry's destruction as a Thedas-wide institution, other Andrastian sects come out of hiding.  I think that showing us the village of Haven in Origins was about more than just the Urn of Sacred Ashes and dragon cults; I think the point was to also show us that there are plenty of Andrastian religions out there that fall outside the auspices of Chantry doctrine in the present day, and that we can expect to see more. 

As long as we see what a reign of terror and chaos that would entail.  But I don't trust Bioware to tell such a story with any sophistication.  That's what it comes down to.  The mage-templar setup has been hamfisted and thus the discussions about it on the forum follow suit.

[Silfren]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Hey guys, tone it down with the real life religious discussion.

The real world parallels are too obvious and deliberate to ignore completely.  I've tried to limit my discussions of them to being within the framework of Thedas' fictional versions.

We've gone waaaaay beyond the subject of the thread, though.  Probably should get back to it.

I agree that the Qun cannot be eradicated.  Not short of destroying each and every man, woman, and child of the Qun and burning all its books, and neither genocide nor bibliocide is desirable.  But I would like to see the militant arm of the Qun destroyed.  There's no reason why the Qun can't exist without it.  In its own way, it uses the excuse of religion for militant expansion.  If the Qun were such a desirable way of life, there would be no need to convert people at the point of a sword. 

Modifié par Silfren, 04 mai 2013 - 08:10 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Silfren wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Hey guys, tone it down with the real life religious discussion.

The real world parallels are too obvious and deliberate to ignore completely.  I've tried to limit my discussions of them to being within the framework of Thedas' fictional versions.

That's fine, but I've noticed some posts containing   "I hate (insert real life religion)."
I don't want this thing locked.

[robertthebard]

MisterJB wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Again, let's ignore the lore to set up your "the Chantry is an altruistic organization that only cares about feeding the homeless" rhetoric?

Your baseless one line posts are not doing a good job of extablishing a counterargument.

Let's go by parts then.
The elven legends tells us elves were immortal but they lost it because of spending time with humans. However, there is no evidence of this. Not only have almost all written elven texts been destroyed and forgotten, but neither biological immortality nor "dying by human proximity" are characteristics exhibited by any other creature on Thedas. There are ingame characters, like Nathaniel, who question this as well so, it's not an accepted truth in Thedas?
Therefore, why should I believe the elves?

Brother Burkel in Orzammar does nothing but help people which attracts willing converts. Therefore, what part of this constitutes as an "infiltration" and why is it undesirable?

Knowledge is power:
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elves

None of this is taken directly from Elven lore, and indicates what is as "according to..."  There is an interesting entry in the Dalish portion, relevant to this dialog.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Dwarves

Note the Religion section.  So somebody comes in and provides food to people that might otherwise go hungry to "earn their goodwill", aka win their hearts and minds.  This is infiltration, and an attempt to establish a foothold where they are not needed, or even wanted.  According to the article, they once had a pantheon of Gods, but it was, apparently, a long time ago.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...

I would love to tear down the Chantry as it presently exists, but that's hardly the same thing as wanting to eradicate it.

If you alter the Chantry to such an extent that it's no longer recognizable is eradicating, as you suggest in your second sentence. Not to say that the Chantry doesn't need to change - but doing it forcefully would likely involve a serious body-count. You'd be talking about, effectively, demolishing the dominant religious culture of Thedas.  

The "it" I want to eradicate is the Chantry institution as a religio-political/military body.  I have no issues with it existing as solely a religious body whose actual purpose is providing spiritual succor to people, and any altruistic agendas it wishes to perform.

But to do that in practice, and to have it actually last longer than the length of time you're holding a sword to their throat, you have to create an institution that somehow separates out political power from religious authority. Meaning that you have to create an organization that people believe defying means, literally, the sacrifice of their immortal soul, and yet somehow have that organization not project power.

It's impossible. There will be a military arm because people will want to fight and die for their belief, and there'll be political power because the religion will have a core set of beliefs that normatively (and authoriatively, in the eyes of followers) define what good is.

It's impossible to have a religious organization that doesn't project power without having, effectively, a secular society or a separate military body that keeps everything in check.

You're right, that sweeping cultural changes do tend to require violent upheavals.  I've never denied this.  But sometimes violent reformation is the only means through which change can happen.  Bloody and chaotic as it will be, Thedas will be the better for it in the long run.  Just as our own world is.

But in our world, this was a process of cultural evolution that took a tremendous amount of time and piggy-backed on economic and technological progress. The secular society in the West developed out of a multitude of factors, none of which  were forceful military conquest and the intentional demolishment of valued social institutions by a foreign other. 

I mean, the only way to actually do what you want is (funny enough, given the thread) to do exactly what the qunari do with re-education camps. 

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I would love to tear down the Chantry as it presently exists, but that's hardly the same thing as wanting to eradicate it.

If you alter the Chantry to such an extent that it's no longer recognizable is eradicating, as you suggest in your second sentence. Not to say that the Chantry doesn't need to change - but doing it forcefully would likely involve a serious body-count. You'd be talking about, effectively, demolishing the dominant religious culture of Thedas. 

I didn't say changing it to the extent that it's no longer recognizable.  I don't agree with the implication that my vision of the Chantry is so radically different that it wouldn't be recognizable.  So no, I'm not arguing for total eradication.  I will, however, assert that if eradication is the only option given, and reformation is off the table, then yes, I'd go for eradication.

The "it" I want to eradicate is the Chantry institution as a religio-political/military body.  I have no issues with it existing as solely a religious body whose actual purpose is providing spiritual succor to people, and any altruistic agendas it wishes to perform.

But to do that in practice, and to have it actually last longer than the length of time you're holding a sword to their throat, you have to create an institution that somehow separates out political power from religious authority. Meaning that you have to create an organization that people believe defying means, literally, the sacrifice of their immortal soul, and yet somehow have that organization not project power.

It's impossible. There will be a military arm because people will want to fight and die for their belief, and there'll be political power because the religion will have a core set of beliefs that normatively (and authoriatively, in the eyes of followers) define what good is.

It's impossible to have a religious organization that doesn't project power without having, effectively, a secular society or a separate military body that keeps everything in check.

You're right, that sweeping cultural changes do tend to require violent upheavals.  I've never denied this.  But sometimes violent reformation is the only means through which change can happen.  Bloody and chaotic as it will be, Thedas will be the better for it in the long run.  Just as our own world is.

But in our world, this was a process of cultural evolution that took a tremendous amount of time and piggy-backed on economic and technological progress. The secular society in the West developed out of a multitude of factors, none of which  were forceful military conquest and the intentional demolishment of valued social institutions by a foreign other. 

I mean, the only way to actually do what you want is (funny enough, given the thread) to do exactly what the qunari do with re-education camps. 

I didn't say at any point that I expected it to happen overnight.  I'm aware it would be a long process. 

The secular society of the west did develop out of multiple factors, but you're wrong to claim that forced conflict had nothing to do with it at any point.  Even if it didn't, it's not relevant to my point that sometimes bloody conflict is necessary for sweeping social changes. 

Re-education camps are NOT the only way to achieve what I'm talking about, because I did NOT suggest that it would be or should be an immediate/overnight process.  This is a ludicrous claim.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
I didn't say at any point that I expected it to happen overnight.  I'm aware it would be a long process. 

The secular society of the west did develop out of multiple factors, but you're wrong to claim that forced conflict had nothing to do with it at any point.  Even if it didn't, it's not relevant to my point that sometimes bloody conflict is necessary for sweeping social changes. 

Re-education camps are NOT the only way to achieve what I'm talking about, because I did NOT suggest that it would be or should be an immediate/overnight process.  This is a ludicrous claim.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a long process - I'm saying it would be a bloody process that requires an equvialent type of social, political and religious dictatorship to the one you want to overthrow. 

As for the West, I didn't say military conflict wasn't a significant factor (just consider e.g. Napoleon and the developmet of nationalism). Rather, I said that it wasn't an external military dictatorship that attempted wholesale cultural upheaval. 

If your argument was that you'd like to "eradicate" the Chantry through hundreds of years of cultural, social and technological progress, driven largley by internal domestic forces, then I'm all for that, except that's not anyone 'eradicating' anything as much as it is social and cultural evolution.

I didn't say changing it to the extent that it's no longer recognizable.  I don't agree with the implication that my vision of the Chantry is so radically different that it wouldn't be recognizable.  So no, I'm not arguing for total eradication.  I will, however, assert that if eradication is the only option given, and reformation is off the table, then yes, I'd go for eradication.

I'm saying that the kind of reformation that somehow separates religious and political power requires either restructuring the entire dogma of the Chantry or permanent military dictatorship.

Modifié par In Exile, 04 mai 2013 - 09:36 .

[Silfren]

StreetMagic wrote...

It would take unearthing new information on Andraste to really change the Chantry. For better or worse. If she turned out to be a brutish Avvar barbarian, people might start scratching their heads. Or if she turned out to be a mage herself, people might treat mages differently, and realize Andraste had a personal interest in seeing them thrive.. just in the right way (rather than being like the magister lords).

I don't think that would actually be necessary.  The Chantry has just ruptured.  What it ultimately turns into remains to be seen, but it's quite likely that whatever does happen, it will never be the same.  If nothing else, there is potential, finally--FINALLY--for a new sect of Andrastian faith to rise in prominence.  Not necessarily as the existing Chantry's replacement.  Andrastian mages could form a new sect.  The existing Chantry, already ripe for reform under Justinia, could ultimately become more progressive, while traditionalists break away to (re)form the traditional Chantry.

[EdwinLi]

And in a great twist in DA3 we discover that Andraste was actually a Mage.

That will certainly cause a lot of heads to roll.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 05 mai 2013 - 04:18 .

[Eveangaline]

I wouldn't want the ability to entirely root it out, just because that seems a bit silly to have one character be able to do in one games time.

But I wouldn't mind the chance to side against it and make a crushing blow.

[LucidlyInsane]

I... really don't see it happening. As a few people have mentioned, it would leave too many variables for the dev team to contend with, and the ethical and political implications make me... uncomfortable, at best. I wouldn't want to have the option to be genocidal to any species, even if - as I do in this case - I disagree with them.

Modifié par LucidlyInsane, 30 juin 2013 - 06:18 .

[Merc Mama]

 I'm not for this, why kill the Qun when the Chantry is still out there getting away with murdah!