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[The Elder King]

Dark Korsar wrote...

if somebody wants to erradiace Qun they need to...
1)weaken Orlais Empire and Orlais Chantry with Templars
2)side with Tevinter Empire in their war against Qun
2)convince Tal-Vasgots who hates and fights agains Qun, and native tribes of elven and human peoples who lives on Qunari territories to help Tevinter in war....of course they would not help Tevinter for free
3)mages need to kill all(most of at least) Tamassarants with Arishok and burn Tome of Koslun in front of thousands Qunari

to do sush thing Tevinter need to

Tevinter help(give resources, special training mages and soldiers) Tal-Vasgots and native tribes of Seheron and Par Vollen and they start a guerrilla war agains Qunari(stealing personal weapons of Qun officers, kill arvaads and free Saareabas with anti-qun kossinds, destroy warehouses with Qamek and Gaatlok, break dreadnought ships, poison or mindcontroll officers and companies of soldiers)

after some time Tevinter start a blitskrieg war agains Qun and conquering Qunari territories, starting a anti-Qun propaganda on Seheron and Par-Vollen,

they start hunt down and kill all Qun Tamassarants and Qun leaders what they can find, cause their leaders(Arishok or others) to a duel if they starts hiding in forests and fortresses

after some months Qun would be defeated and Tevinter founding some border port-cities on Par-Vollen coast to prevent any future invasion on Thedas and for trade and diplomacy with Kossind and native human and elven peoples and most of Tevinter armies leave Par-Vollen to protect their large Thedas and Seheron territories from other Countries and future blights

and kossind and native tribes of human and elven peoples will be left to themselves

Considering that it took an alliance between Tevinter and the Chantry (with the majority of Andrastian's nations), plus even pirates (the Felicissima Armada was vital to stop the qunari dreadnoughts) to pull back the qunari invasion, I find it doubtful that destroying or seriously weakening the strongest Andrastian nations is a good idea to defeat the qunari once for all.
The situation of Southern Thedas, with mages and templars fighting each other (and weakening each others), with Orlais in a civil war, Ferelden still on reconstruction, Nevarra with a possible problem (World of Thedas suggests that there isn't a clear heir), the Free Marches that lost two Circles, it's more plausible that the Qunari will start an invasion in a future game, than the opposite.
The Tevinter-qunari struggle, from the perspective of Southern Thedas, is better to continue and not finish, considering that both are stronger than a single Andrastian nation. If one of the sides will win the conflict, they'll invade the rest of Thedas.

[Battlebloodmage]

I feel like the different beliefs and oppositions are what made the Dragon Age universe special. I don't think they should remove it because it would remove the point of view from an entire culture. I don't even think the Qun is that bad. They advocate for equality and content with who you are. There are people who join the Qun willingly afterall.

[Chashan]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Chashan wrote...

They have implemented a sense of equality in their society. Each of the branches is seen as important and cannot work without the other.
Compare that with the aristocracies in Chant-lands, with their ingrained racism toward minorities such as elves, and you got something going there.

Me thinks someone has had a little too much qamek.
You realize they are not peaceful and zen-like? The Qunari are violent and aggressively seek to convert anyone not of the Qun.

The Chant itself has made that part of their creed, for how else is it supposed to be 'sung from all corners of the Earth?' Not just by preaching, as the elves found out to their dismay.

Also, as it has been pointed out, the Qunari marines stuck in Kirkwall kept their 'urge' to convert remarkably well in check for a lengthy amount of time, and the blame for that escalating can be laid at certain Chant-personnel's feet (I would have loved nothing more than to strangle Petrice right there after her attempted blackmailing in act 1).

Simply putting them up, yet again, as mooks to be fought would be quite boring indeed, as I view it. Their concept is interesting, seeing that first-hand executed in a way that is more ambivalent than shoving down our collective throats how the Qun only continues due to 'lol-indoctrination' would therefore be much appreciated.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

 I don't even think the Qun is that bad. They advocate for equality and content with who you are. There are people who join the Qun willingly afterall.

1) you mad? its worse than bad

2)oh yeah "equality" throught total  body and mind slavery, this is ever wose than slavery because in Qun you are nothing as a replacement thing(even a things like weapons is worth more than the life of a soldiers) for Tamassarants and they can do with you all what they wanted and no one would care.

..and if you just thing and said some one that Tammasarants doing something not right, so you are going to special place with force Qun reteaching with Qamek, and if you still resist so you will die and no one would care what happenig to you and not ask about that

and Qunari are n*azi and non-kossind can't and never would have high ranks(only work as miner,farmer or spy-assasin) in Qun society no matter how they belive in Qun because Tammasarants not want this as how they not allow as any crossbreading, family's, close relationships, parenting childrens(you can have childrens only from person what Tammasarant said and your childrens after they born were taken forever)

3)because these non-kossind peoples have a very bad-poor live in Thedas and they
  1)not know anything about Qunari with Qun and how it really works.
  2)Qun give for their acolites(and Qunari not really care who you was bedore) free food, water, house and protection against non-Qunari
  3)Qunari have a good propoganda with Qamek and Qunari specially do their propoganda on poorest and not happiness of Thedas low-classes in places when non-Qun not have real powers or have very litle of them

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 02 mai 2013 - 12:00 .

[Gfletch]

Vallasch wrote...

I dislike the Qun's methods but i actually have respect for what they try to achieve. Everyone within it has value and are given a task or role that they are good at. Every act their people take is for the benefit of their entire society not just the ambitions of the individual.

I was actually quite surprised to find i liked Serebaas's counter when he is rebuked by Anders. "What comfort has freedom brought you mage? If you knew certainty, you would have more."

In any case i doubt Bioware will be promoting genocide any time soon.

Pretty much half of Mass Effect 3 was centered around genocide in some shape or form. ME2 was quite partial to it as well (Arrival)

They seem to have no issues in including it - but I don't think it'd work in Dragon Age. There's no WMD's around to do it within a realistic timeframe.

[Fast Jimmy]

As I stated in the Eradicate Humanity thread, we will never be given the option to eradicate any race, religion, nation or institution in a DA game. The complications it would bring for the Save Import are too numerous to list.

Want to destroy the Chantry and bring down the Templar regime? Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Or, if it does, it will happen regardless of what you choose (so that pro-Andrastian characters will feel slighted).

Want to slaughter the Elves wholesale, Dalish and Alienage residents alike? Sorry, never going to be an option (again, unless the all die, regardless). Conversely, do you want to have the option to set up a nation where the Elves can rebuild their culture? Sorry, also not going to happen (we already saw this retconnd from DA:O due to the Save Import).

Want to eradicate the Qun? Or want to support its spread to all lands? Too bad, not gonna happen. The world states that would result from that choice are too varied to be supported as a real choice the game is going to give you.

It might be better for everyone to really scale back their expectations of choice in the game. If any choice you want results in a fundamentally different world, so that encounters with an entire group/nation/institution would not only be different, but completely changed insofar as how Bioware would implement things in the next game, then it would be best to not expect it. Because its probably just not going to happen.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 mai 2013 - 01:11 .

[Itkovian]

Well, I personally will have no qualms visiting violence upon these tyrannical eugenistic fascists.

Easily one of the more reprehensible philosophies out there, so bring on the old Ultraviolence!

[wright1978]

The Qun is an idea and so will never be eradicated. Don't see with a single character and a band of allies how the Qunari Nationa could be destroyed, let alone severely wounded. Killing an Arishok might be a symbolic blow(though repeating Hawke's achievement isn't something i'd advocate the game to seek to accomplish.

However thwarting or driving back their expansionistic plans would certainly be an option i would like to have in the arsenal of choices.

[Itkovian]

wright1978 wrote...

The Qun is an idea and so will never be eradicated. Don't see with a single character and a band of allies how the Qunari Nationa could be destroyed, let alone severely wounded. Killing an Arishok might be a symbolic blow(though repeating Hawke's achievement isn't something i'd advocate the game to seek to accomplish.

See, tha'ts not quite true. History is replete with "ideas" that had died off, very often through the actions of Other People.

For example, met any followers of the greek pantheon these days? How about those pesky Canaanites?

Sure, we still know ABOUT those religions today, but generally speaking they're pretty much dead religions. There's no reason to think the same can't happen to the Qun, with the judicious application of mass slaughter and forced conversions.

Granted, it almost certainly is not possible in a single generation. Destroying a religion is more like a multi-generational effort, but it can certainly happen. And, my, the Qun certainly deserves it.

Well, ok, odds are my character would never endorse such actions. But in large part that'd be because, unlike us, he has no idea how evil eugenistic fascists can be (or how evil a culture with a Religious Thought Police can be).

But anyway, my point is: ideas die off all the time. It just takes a lot of dedication.

[Wulfram]

The Qunari structure seems rather inflexible, which should make it vulnerable. 

If you decapitate it's priestly leadership, killing the Ariqun and the people who choose the next Ariqun, would there be anyone left whose role would allow them to step forward and take control?  If you expose it's populace to outside ideas and cultures, can enough of it remain happy as subservient slaves to allow their society ot persist?  

I kind of doubt it, but of course if Qunari society was a fragile as it should be, it would have collapsed centuries ago.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 mai 2013 - 12:47 .

[Brodoteau]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
 
Want to destroy the Chantry and bring down the Templar regime? Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Of, if it does, it will happen regardless of what you choose (so that pro-Andrastian chara ters will feel slighted).

Want to slaughter the Elves wholesale, Dalish and Alienage residents alike? Sorry, never going to be an option (again, unless the all die, regardless). Conversely, do you want to have the option to set up a nation where the Elves can rebuild their culture? Sorry, also not going to happen (we already saw this retconnd from DA:O due to the Save Import).

Want to eradicate the Qun? Or want to support its spread to all lands? Too bad, not gonna happen. The world states that would result from that choice are too varied to be supported as real chocked the game is going to give you. 

First of all, I echo the ideas listed above that this is kind of an over-the-top evil option.  I don't think we should have the option to eradicate anything. 

Secondly, I agree fundamentally with Jimmy's argument.  There are things that are to radical to the game world to give us the option to be able to do.  But to  add to his point, you will also never be given the RP opportunity to enact these kind of wholescale changes. 

Let's also face facts:   You are never in a position of power (in game) to decide these things.  Hawke and his band of followers might end up killing hundreds of people, but you never get to RP a character that has the power to enact a large-scale organized eradication -- even if you become ruler in the epilogue, you don't RP oppressing the mages, that game just ends.  Even in DAO, you might become king/queen, but you don't get to RP that position.  In fact, despite becoming ruler you are then shipped off to be the head of some small little backwater city/fort in Awakenings (doesn't a king/queen have better things to do?)

Ultimately, in Bioware games you might be an epic hero, yes, but you are a functionary.  And you have to be from a gameplay perspective, because most PC start out at Level 1 or novice.  Those aren't the people that are put in charge of things (normally).  This is not a bad thing mind you, but requests for us to commit a genocide are ridiculous.

So echoing Jimmy, let's scale back our expectations.  Ask Bioware if you can be anti-elf or anti-Qunari if you want, but don't ask for grandiose power, you won't get to RP that.   

[Wulfram]

Brodoteau wrote...

So echoing Jimmy, let's scale back our expectations.  Ask Bioware if you can be anti-elf or anti-Qunari if you want, but don't ask for grandiose power, you won't get to RP that.   

Eh, Squeaky wheel gets the kick... wait, that's wrong... grease.  Scaling back expectations is good, but that doesn't mean you should scale back your desires.

If people aren't happy being stuck as functionaries and want stories that give them "grandiose power", then they should say so.  Then Bioware can consider whether it's worth accomodating that.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 mai 2013 - 01:16 .

[wright1978]

Itkovian wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

The Qun is an idea and so will never be eradicated. Don't see with a single character and a band of allies how the Qunari Nationa could be destroyed, let alone severely wounded. Killing an Arishok might be a symbolic blow(though repeating Hawke's achievement isn't something i'd advocate the game to seek to accomplish.

See, tha'ts not quite true. History is replete with "ideas" that had died off, very often through the actions of Other People.

For example, met any followers of the greek pantheon these days? How about those pesky Canaanites?

Sure, we still know ABOUT those religions today, but generally speaking they're pretty much dead religions. There's no reason to think the same can't happen to the Qun, with the judicious application of mass slaughter and forced conversions.

Granted, it almost certainly is not possible in a single generation. Destroying a religion is more like a multi-generational effort, but it can certainly happen. And, my, the Qun certainly deserves it.

Well, ok, odds are my character would never endorse such actions. But in large part that'd be because, unlike us, he has no idea how evil eugenistic fascists can be (or how evil a culture with a Religious Thought Police can be).

But anyway, my point is: ideas die off all the time. It just takes a lot of dedication.

Well yeah i suppose you can destroy an entire nation, co-opt their beliefs into your religion. Torture and persecute anyone who follows the Qun. Largely worked with the Elves in Dragon Age universe. Certainly not the work of a single game, let alone a single lifetime.

As for whether they deserve it, well no more than anyone else imo.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

The Qunari structure seems rather inflexible, which should make it vulnerable. 

If you decapitate it's priestly leadership, killing the Ariqun and the people who choose the next Ariqun, would there be anyone left whose role would allow them to step forward and take control?  If you expose it's populace to outside ideas and cultures, can enough of it remain happy as subservient slaves to allow their society ot persist?  

I kind of doubt it, but of course if Qunari society was a fragile as it should be, it would have collapsed centuries ago.

Actually, this is inherently false. The Qun is incredibly flexible. There is a succession line for every position, every member is put into a role that would allow them to move into the next should the need arise. The Arishok is killed and another takes his place as soon as the deed is reported. The same goes for every position, from a artisan to Ariqun. There is no power struggle or indecisiveness... it is what the Qun demands, so you do it. And the Qun dictates how you are to handle your responsibility in any role. The skills, themselves, are something that must be learned, but, again, every member is trained to do the jobs in their role since birth. If you are a soldier, you have been trained to fight and lead others in battle since you were a child, whether you are the role of a foot soldier or the son of the Arishok. 

The structure of the Qun is incredibly ridgid... but it is also extremely adaptable. It is arguably more so than having rulers being decided by who is the child of the current ruler. Should tragedy strike and the royal family is killed, there is inherent chaos and strife. With the Qun, when someone of importance dies, no matter how many die along with them, there is always someone else already picked to take their place. There is no infighting or struggle... it is just how things are.

I'd say that is a system that is MUCH more complicated and hard to destroy than, say, a monarchy. You can hire an assassin and take out a monarchy. You need to execute every Qunari to truly destroy the Qun.

[Brodoteau]

Wulfram wrote...

Brodoteau wrote...

So echoing Jimmy, let's scale back our expectations.  Ask Bioware if you can be anti-elf or anti-Qunari if you want, but don't ask for grandiose power, you won't get to RP that.   

Eh, Squeaky wheel gets the kick... wait, that's wrong... grease.  Scaling back expectations is good, but that doesn't mean you should scale back your desires.

If people aren't happy being stuck as functionaries and want stories that give them "grandiose power", then they should say so.  Then Bioware can consider whether it's worth accomodating that.

No, no: "This behaviour must not continue. Feel the burning stare of my hamster and change your ways."

Sure it's reasonable to assume that Bioware should accomodate people who want to RP grandiose power, but as Jimmy mentioned, not at the cost of wrecking the game world.  Because, really, it is Bioware's world.  They control the stories we play.  We simply control (or want more control) over how we play their story. 

(Side note: I am not looking for a ME3 argument here, because you can argue that though Bioware controls the story, they make an implicit agreement to have internal narrative coherency.  Hence, to many people, the ME3 endings violated there the rules of their own story world and that's why they caused problems).

So ultimately, grandiose power is just too "dangerous" to hand over to the

Which is why Bioware always gets us to that point and then stops the game:
BG2:  You can become a god.  You don't get to RP a god.
KOTOR:  You can destroy the Republic.  You don't get to do it (outside an epilogue screen).
DAO:  You can become king etc. 
DA2:  You can become champion etc. 
ME3:  You can become a space god. 

Now, would a game where you got to make these decisions be neat.  Sure.  Maybe.  But only if you were challenged (through rebellion or another country).  And then the game is not about you, it would change the nature of the game, it becomes a strategy game like Civilizations.  

So ask for grandiose power if you want but, if I were Bioware, I would ignore the request because granting that power can destroy the game world. 

[Wulfram]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Actually, this is inherently false. The Qun is incredibly flexible. There is a succession line for every position, every member is put into a role that would allow them to move into the next should the need arise. The Arishok is killed and another takes his place as soon as the deed is reported.

Citation needed

The same goes for every position, from a artisan to Ariqun. There is no power struggle or indecisiveness... it is what the Qun demands, so you do it. And the Qun dictates how you are to handle your responsibility in any role. The skills, themselves, are something that must be learned, but, again, every member is trained to do the jobs in their role since birth. If you are a soldier, you have been trained to fight and lead others in battle since you were a child, whether you are the role of a foot soldier or the son of the Arishok.

Well, that's an incredibly inefficient way to run an army/society.  Lumbering everyone with useless training on the off chance they get stuck with a different job.

The structure of the Qun is incredibly ridgid... but it is also extremely adaptable. It is arguably more so than having rulers being decided by who is the child of the current ruler. Should tragedy strike and the royal family is killed, there is inherent chaos and strife. With the Qun, when someone of importance dies, no matter how many die along with them, there is always someone else already picked to take their place. There is no infighting or struggle... it is just how things are.

Except their society depends on everyone being in their place.  And it relies on their leaders being perfectily fit for their roles, because there's no way of disputing them.  If the Ariqun is suddenly thrust into the role then they'll screw up.

Qunari society is a massive machine.  If a cog gets loose, the whole thing will explose.

Hell, the disruption caused by everyone shuffling up one like you describe would dwarf any civil war.

I'd say that is a system that is MUCH more complicated and hard to destroy than, say, a monarchy. You can hire an assassin and take out a monarchy. You need to execute every Qunari to truly destroy the Qun.

An Assassin can kill a King, but people can just shrug and hail a new king.  Or just get along for a while without a King.

edit:@Brodoteau "Destroying the game world" is only a problem with imports.  If there's a demand for stuff which is incompatible with imports, then Bioware might consider whether imports are wothwhile.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 mai 2013 - 01:46 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If a king is assasinated in any normal country, yes, the people could just shrug and move on, sicne it affects them little. However, there is this little thing called the nobles, who would certainly waste no time grasping for the power, during the vacuum after such an assasination, which would indeed influence the people aswell. If you assassinated any of the Qunari leaders however, the Qunari society moves on unaffected. The QUnari haves no such ambitions as the nobles of the rest of Thedas, and as such, the line of succession is very clear, and absolute.

[Nole]

[Beerfish]

daaaav wrote...

Am I the only one who is content with merely existing for a while in an alternate reality without the expectation that I can unilaterally dole out mass extinctions to its occupants and ideologies?

Perhaps you should tell this to the Qunari as that essentially is exactly what they want to do.  Assimilate or exterminate.

[EdwinLi]

I swear have any of you ever head of the ideal that people have different ways of life.

Not everyone enjoys living certain ways of life but some do.

Qunari is a way of life for them and the view of the Qun and hatred is more towards religious issues rather than diplomatic issues.

Not everyone values the American way of life the best life and the same goes with other types of life such as Communism, Republic, and etc.

The Qunari way of life is the Value of the Majority and not the minority. While other cultures way of life is the value of the Minority rather than the Majority in DA world.

Arishok attack on Kirkwall was because of how the city valued the minority, being the nobles and rich, and leaves the majority of the people to starve and struggle like animals. If Kirkwall was better than it current corrupt state than he would see no need to attack Kirkwall because in the Qun the actions performed will always be about helping the majority rather than the minority.

Modifié par EdwinLi, 02 mai 2013 - 02:49 .

[The Hierophant]

Beerfish wrote...

Perhaps you should tell this to the Qunari as that essentially is exactly what they want to do. Assimilate or exterminate.

They'll mellow out once they get their hands on some cookies, cake and ice cream.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Actually, this is inherently false. The Qun is incredibly flexible. There is a succession line for every position, every member is put into a role that would allow them to move into the next should the need arise. The Arishok is killed and another takes his place as soon as the deed is reported.

Citation needed

It was part of the dialogue with Sten. Unfortunately, I am not able to find a full text dialogue of all of his conversations to quote.

The same goes for every position, from a artisan to Ariqun. There is no power struggle or indecisiveness... it is what the Qun demands, so you do it. And the Qun dictates how you are to handle your responsibility in any role. The skills, themselves, are something that must be learned, but, again, every member is trained to do the jobs in their role since birth. If you are a soldier, you have been trained to fight and lead others in battle since you were a child, whether you are the role of a foot soldier or the son of the Arishok.

Well, that's an incredibly inefficient way to run an army/society.  Lumbering everyone with useless training on the off chance they get stuck with a different job.

Less inefficient than teaching algebra or iambic pentameter to someone who will grow up to be a bartender or police officer. Teaching a child who will be a soldier everything they need to know about being a soldier is hardly inefficient. Understanding command structure, battle tactics and miltary strategy isnt' required for a grunt soldier... but it is helpful. And it makes them ready to take the next step, where they will both learn their role with expereince and also observe those above them whom they may take the role of in the future. 

Its not as unwieldly as you make it out to be.

The structure of the Qun is incredibly ridgid... but it is also extremely adaptable. It is arguably more so than having rulers being decided by who is the child of the current ruler. Should tragedy strike and the royal family is killed, there is inherent chaos and strife. With the Qun, when someone of importance dies, no matter how many die along with them, there is always someone else already picked to take their place. There is no infighting or struggle... it is just how things are.

Except their society depends on everyone being in their place.  And it relies on their leaders being perfectily fit for their roles, because there's no way of disputing them.  If the Ariqun is suddenly thrust into the role then they'll screw up.

Qunari society is a massive machine.  If a cog gets loose, the whole thing will explose.

Hell, the disruption caused by everyone shuffling up one like you describe would dwarf any civil war.

Not everyone would "shuffle up one." There would only be as many replacements as there are ranks. If there are, say, eight ranks between the Arishok and the lowest grunt solder, that is only seven people who would need to learn a new job. That's hardly disruptive.

I'd say that is a system that is MUCH more complicated and hard to destroy than, say, a monarchy. You can hire an assassin and take out a monarchy. You need to execute every Qunari to truly destroy the Qun.

An Assassin can kill a King, but people can just shrug and hail a new king.  Or just get along for a while without a King.

edit:@Brodoteau "Destroying the game world" is only a problem with imports.  If there's a demand for stuff which is incompatible with imports, then Bioware might consider whether imports are wothwhile.

People can hail a new king... but what if seven new kings pop up, all demanding to be hailed to? What if they have their own armies, their own treasuries, their own supplies? Suddenly, now you have constant, all out war. That's hardly better than having someone new take the spot. Especially when that person has been handpicked for years as the successor and knows this. I seriously doubt they say "oh, the Arishok is dead. Well, hey guy... you are his successor... SURPISE!" The hierarchy lets everyone know who will be the next in line so there is no confusion. And if you know you are next in line to be, say, the Arishok, it is your duty under the Qun to prepare yourself for that the day you first find out it was a possibility.

I don't like the Qun or anything. I think it is extremely brutal, crushing and lacking in purpose. If this was all being done to pursue a certain goal, I could possibly get behind it if I supported said goal... but as is, they are devoted to order and honor and have no end goal, other than just conquering everyone. 

Such a philosophy would never function in the real world, mostly because people's human nature is too self-centered to function. But the fictional world of Thedas shows this system has worked for centuries, that its tenets, by and large, support (or at least comply) with the way things function and that they are the supreior military, technological force in Thedas because of it. I'd say that means whatever they are doing is durable, at the very least.

[RedArmyShogun]

OP your heresy has been marked.

You will not live to see tomorrow.

Glory is Found only in the Qun.

[garrusfan1]

I think if they weren't going to attack and try to basically to do a crusade that they should be left alone. but they will attack and cause destruction and then be pushed back again after causing destruction. at least tevinter keeps their power down with the constant war

[Solmanian]

Wow, I don't think I ever encountered such an intolerant thread toward a fictional species. "Please bioware let destroy the Qun"? Because the andrastians are better? It's not even feasible, since you still don't know where the qunari came from... You only know which country they invaded first. For all we know there an entire continent filled with angry qunari.