353 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lord Aesir wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Qunari prefers peaceful conversion, they do however respond with force if people forcibly resist. As in they will defend themselves.

They will also kill you or turn you into a mindless thrall if you refuse to convert.

Even a broken tool has its uses.

[Plaintiff]

The Qun is a vile philosophy and I would love to drive the Qunari from Par Vollen and restore the land to the Fex, if any still live, but somehow I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Qunari prefers peaceful conversion, they do however respond with force if people forcibly resist. As in they will defend themselves.

They will also kill you or turn you into a mindless thrall if you refuse to convert.

Even a broken tool has its uses.

As in "mindless thrall".

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

What is it with people on the BSN demanding that BioWare implement choices into their games that would have such a sweeping effect on the world as to effectively eradicate possible future storylines for sequels?

The Qun is a religion, the Qunari a culture, as well as an entire sentient species. Nearly the entire world population of the horned giant people who were once called the Kossith follow the Qun. What OP is asking for is nothing short of genocide. It's ridiculous, and while I suppose it might just be possible to achieve through magic (but not without drawing obvious comparisons to Mass Effect's "Space Magic"), I don't think implementing such a choice would please that many people.

If this were the very last Dragon Age game and in the game world the actual century that covers that age were about to end and BioWare were never going to set anything in the world of Thedas after that, then fine, we can talk about making drastic, world-changing choices such as wiping out entire races or cultures.

BioWare might have plans to tell more stories in the Mass Effect universe, but it's likely those will be prequels, stories that run parallel to Shepard's, or stories set far enough in the future that the choices made at the end of ME3 are merely important historical footnotes with only subtle effects on the game world at the starting point.

BioWare fans, I beg of you, keep your expectations grounded in reality.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 03 mai 2013 - 12:13 .

[Plaintiff]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
The Qun is a religion, the Qunari a culture, as well as an entire sentient species.

A religion, culture and species whose publicly stated aim is the forced conversion, enslavement and/or slaughter of every other religion, culture and species.

People want to get rid of it because it's despicable.

Nearly the entire world population of the horned giant people who were once called the Kossith follow the Qun. What OP is asking for is nothing short of genocide.

****** for tat, I say. They've made it perfectly clear that they intend to invade and subjugate the rest of Thedas at the earliest opportunity.

If this were the very last Dragon Age game and in the game world the actual century that covers that age were about to end and BioWare were never going to set anything in the world of Thedas after that, then fine, we can talk about making drastic, world-changing choices such as wiping out entire races or cultures.

Getting rid of the Qunari won't stop Bioware from making any sequels. We've seen hardly anything of the continent of Thedas, let alone the rest of the world that surrounds it. There's plenty of material to draw from yet.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 mai 2013 - 12:24 .

[robertthebard]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...
The Qun is a religion, the Qunari a culture, as well as an entire sentient species.

A religion, culture and species whose publicly stated aim is the forced conversion, enslavement and/or slaughter of every other religion, culture and species.

People want to get rid of it because it's despicable.

Nearly the entire world population of the horned giant people who were once called the Kossith follow the Qun. What OP is asking for is nothing short of genocide.

****** for tat, I say. They've made it perfectly clear that they intend to invade and subjugate the rest of Thedas at the earliest opportunity.

If this were the very last Dragon Age game and in the game world the actual century that covers that age were about to end and BioWare were never going to set anything in the world of Thedas after that, then fine, we can talk about making drastic, world-changing choices such as wiping out entire races or cultures.

Getting rid of the Qunari won't stop Bioware from making any sequels. We've seen hardly anything of the continent of Thedas, let alone the rest of the world that surrounds it. There's plenty of material to draw from yet.

Which is why I think we should get rid of the Chantry too.  I mean, come on, they want to do an Exalted March on Orzammar in my last game because the mages founded a Circle there, and they won't let the Chantry in.  So forced conversion to Andrastianism is acceptable, since it's humans?  If the answer is no, then based on your logic for disposing of the Qunari, we must then eliminate the Chantry as well.  After all, we can't have religious zealots allowed to run loose forcing their religion on people.

[Plaintiff]

robertthebard wrote...
Which is why I think we should get rid of the Chantry too.  I mean, come on, they want to do an Exalted March on Orzammar in my last game because the mages founded a Circle there, and they won't let the Chantry in.  So forced conversion to Andrastianism is acceptable, since it's humans?  If the answer is no, then based on your logic for disposing of the Qunari, we must then eliminate the Chantry as well.  After all, we can't have religious zealots allowed to run loose forcing their religion on people.

I do want to eliminate the Chantry. At the very least, it should be stripped of its military power and measures should be put in place to stop it from ever re-accumulating such power.

[EmperorSahlertz]

By your logic removing the Chantry wouldn't be enough. Every single Andrastian human being must be eradicated, I mean, that is what you want to do with the Qunari. Removing the Qunari military isn't enough, so why is it enough with the Chantry? Double standards are twice as good i reckon.

[MichaelStuart]

I support any option that lets me commit genocide.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By your logic removing the Chantry wouldn't be enough. Every single Andrastian human being must be eradicated,

No they mustn't. What sort of anti-logic brain fart is that?

Being Andrastian just means you believe in Andraste. It doesn't make you a member of the Chantry, or even a supporter of the Chantry. Anders is an Adrastian and he doesn't support the Chantry.

I mean, that is what you want to do with the Qunari. Removing the Qunari military isn't enough, so why is it enough with the Chantry? Double standards are twice as good i reckon.

I will only want to eliminate the Qunari for as long as they continue to be an active threat to others. When they abandon their vile philosophy and stop trying to murder and mindrape people, I'll leave them be.

The same applies to the Chantry. There is no double-standard.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 mai 2013 - 01:19 .

[robertthebard]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By your logic removing the Chantry wouldn't be enough. Every single Andrastian human being must be eradicated,

No they mustn't. What sort of anti-logic brain fart is that?

Being Andrastian just means you believe in Andrate. It doesn't make you a member of the Chantry, or even a supporter of the Chantry. Anders is an Adrastian and he doesn't support the Chantry.

I mean, that is what you want to do with the Qunari. Removing the Qunari military isn't enough, so why is it enough with the Chantry? Double standards are twice as good i reckon.

I will only want to eliminate the Qunari for as long as they continue to be an active threat to others. When they abandon their vile philosophy and stop trying to murder and mindrape people, I'll leave them be.

The same applies to the Chantry. There is no double-standard.

Actually, in Awakening, he does support the Chantry.  I just played the dialog with Wynne this morning.  He was dead set against the Libertarians pulling the Circles from Chantry control.  That's about as much supporting the Chantry as one can get being a mage.

However, eliminating the Chantry won't be enough.  You will have to eliminate everyone that follows the faith, or it will spring up again, only more militant than the last time, just as you will have to eliminate everyone that follows the Qun, because it's not just religious leaders that believe they are doing the right thing.  So you're going to have to wipe them out to prevent it coming back even more militant than now.  There can be no middle ground, you either do it, or you don't, because if you do it half assed, it will come back to bite you in the ass.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

By your logic removing the Chantry wouldn't be enough. Every single Andrastian human being must be eradicated,

No they mustn't. What sort of anti-logic brain fart is that?

Being Andrastian just means you believe in Andraste. It doesn't make you a member of the Chantry, or even a supporter of the Chantry. Anders is an Adrastian and he doesn't support the Chantry.

I mean, that is what you want to do with the Qunari. Removing the Qunari military isn't enough, so why is it enough with the Chantry? Double standards are twice as good i reckon.

I will only want to eliminate the Qunari for as long as they continue to be an active threat to others. When they abandon their vile philosophy and stop trying to murder and mindrape people, I'll leave them be.

The same applies to the Chantry. There is no double-standard.

So you want to kill the harmless Qunari farmer, but the avid Andrastian mage hater who oppresses Elves, is innocent?

[Plaintiff]

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, in Awakening, he does support the Chantry.  I just played the dialog with Wynne this morning.  He was dead set against the Libertarians pulling the Circles from Chantry control.  That's about as much supporting the Chantry as one can get being a mage.

No, he doesn't, and no it isn't. "Supporting the Chantry" would mean belieiving it's dogma about mages and staying in the Circle like he's supposed to.

He doesn't say "leaving the Chantry would be morally wrong", he says "I hate Chantry overisght as much as anyone, but they can't just decide to leave. This is a recipe for disaster." He doesn't disagree with the actions of the Libertarians, he's concerned about violent retribution from the Chantry.

However, eliminating the Chantry won't be enough.  You will have to eliminate everyone that follows the faith, or it will spring up again, only more militant than the last time, just as you will have to eliminate everyone that follows the Qun, because it's not just religious leaders that believe they are doing the right thing.  So you're going to have to wipe them out to prevent it coming back even more militant than now.  There can be no middle ground, you either do it, or you don't, because if you do it half assed, it will come back to bite you in the ass.

Nonsense. The Catholic Church was never wiped out, but it is no longer a militant power spearheading invasions of the Middle East.

The Chantry and The Qun can be made to change their doctrine.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Cleanse the Qun. They're the crappy race.
Cleanse the Dwarves. They're the biased race.
Cleanse the Elves. They're the b*tchy race.
Cleanse the Humans. They're the greedy race.

Long live the old gods and their minions. Trolol

[Silfren]

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, in Awakening, he does support the Chantry.  I just played the dialog with Wynne this morning.  He was dead set against the Libertarians pulling the Circles from Chantry control.  That's about as much supporting the Chantry as one can get being a mage.

Yeah, no.  Play that scene again.  Anders is extremely clear in that scene that he opposes separation from the Chantry because he recognizes that such a move against the Chantry would be disastrous.  He's not just opposing the separation because he thinks the Chantry is a cool institution the mages ought to be thrilled to be a part of.  You even hear him say this, "Pull away entirely? That's madness. I hate Chantry oversight as much as the next mage, but they can't just decide to leave.  This is a recipe for disaster!"  Opposing a move against the Chantry isn't at all the same thing as supporting the Chantry, especially in the context that he says it.

[Itkovian]

robertthebard wrote...
Which is why I think we should get rid of the Chantry too.  I mean, come on, they want to do an Exalted March on Orzammar in my last game because the mages founded a Circle there, and they won't let the Chantry in.  So forced conversion to Andrastianism is acceptable, since it's humans?  If the answer is no, then based on your logic for disposing of the Qunari, we must then eliminate the Chantry as well.  After all, we can't have religious zealots allowed to run loose forcing their religion on people.

The comparison is utterly unsound, however. Qunari are invading and converting by the sword (and by fecking chemical/magical LOBOTOMY) the people of Thedas simply by virtue of not having the same religion. The exalted marches on Orzammar on the other hand, which are merely CONSIDERED and never actually happen, come up specifically because the Chantry believes itself wronged by the dwarves of Orzammar.

The Orzammar circle is an issue because Apostates are circumventing Chantry law by taking refuge in Orzammar, which the Chantry sees as a bunch of mages who are using the dwarves to be able to do what they want. Remember, there are no dwarven mages, so logically any Circle in Orzammar is merely a refuge for surfacer apostates fleeing Chantry law.

And the other reason an Exalted March is considered is because the dwarves of Orzammar actively repress and KILL dwarves who converted to the Chantry. It's the Chantry faithful who are being wronged in that case, so it's entirely normal that some sort of retaliation is considered.

Heck, if anything Bioware has been very careful to actually INVERT the usual trope of the Big Evil Monolithic Religion when it comes to the Chantry. Take a look at DA2 and Asunder... Grand Cleric Elthina (sp?) is just about the most reasonable person involved in the Mage/Templar conflict, while in Asunder the Divine practically sides with the mages (prompting the Templars to reject her authority and going rogue).

Now, the Chantry isn't perfect, naturally, and we see quite a few fanatical clerics in the series, and their treatment of mages is still reprehensible... but it is entire orders of magnitude removed from the evils of the Qunari.

Heck, on the mage topic alone the Qunari come out as demented monsters compared to the Chantry. Add to that their very real nature as fascistic eugenist tyrant, and there is no doubt in my mind which is the greatest menace to Thedas.

And really, I find the usual defense that people would embrace the Qun because it "gives them a sense a purpose" and offer stability and what not to be reprehensible. It still is a complete denial of individual freedoms, and nobody bloody well enjoys that. It's the sort of ludicrous argument that slavers used to justify their actions (they get food and shelter, don't need to worry about finding a job, and so forth). Just because someone is an uneducated, ignorant peasant does NOT mean they enjoy having no freedom. And we don't need look far back in history to prove it.

Heck, that's not even considering the wonderful contrubition that the Ben-hassrath make to Qunari society. Religious Thought Police are always a wonderful thing. I'm STILL miffed we didn't get to shove a sword in Tallis' face the moment she got misty-eyed at how the Ben-hassrath are wonderful.

So, +1 once more for the OP. I doubt it's going to happen, but hopefully we can rack up a nice Qunari bodycount.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So you want to kill the harmless Qunari farmer, but the avid Andrastian mage hater who oppresses Elves, is innocent?

You sure love your ridiculous strawmen.

I will put an end to the activities of any bully, regardless of their religious beliefs.

There is no such thing as a "harmless" Qunari. All Qunari believe in violently subjugating all non-Qunari. It is a requirement of their religion.

[robertthebard]

Silfren wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, in Awakening, he does support the Chantry.  I just played the dialog with Wynne this morning.  He was dead set against the Libertarians pulling the Circles from Chantry control.  That's about as much supporting the Chantry as one can get being a mage.

Yeah, no.  Play that scene again.  Anders is extremely clear in that scene that he opposes separation from the Chantry because he recognizes that such a move against the Chantry would be disastrous.  He's not just opposing the separation because he thinks the Chantry is a cool institution the mages ought to be thrilled to be a part of.  You even hear him say this, "Pull away entirely? That's madness. I hate Chantry oversight as much as the next mage, but they can't just decide to leave.  This is a recipe for disaster!"  Opposing a move against the Chantry isn't at all the same thing as supporting the Chantry, especially in the context that he says it.

I'll have to replay it, I must have chosen the wrong dialog option or something, because it came across as more "I hate them, but that doesn't mean we should leave them" in the dialog I had.  I tend to stay to neutral responses though, so maybe he has other lines for different choices, I'll check.

[Plaintiff]

Itkovian wrote...
Grand Cleric Elthina (sp?) is just about the most reasonable person involved in the Mage/Templar conflict.

Considering that Elthina deliberately ignores rapes being committed by Templars, and allows Meredith to run rampant all over Kirkwall, everybody else involved must practically be Satan.

[robertthebard]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So you want to kill the harmless Qunari farmer, but the avid Andrastian mage hater who oppresses Elves, is innocent?

You sure love your ridiculous strawmen.

I will put an end to the activities of any bully, regardless of their religious beliefs.

There is no such thing as a "harmless" Qunari. All Qunari believe in violently subjugating all non-Qunari. It is a requirement of their religion.

According to Andraste, the Maker will forgive man's sins, and return(?), when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world.  So, are they gonna go ask nicely for people to convert?  I'm not going to touch the issues in your reply to me, due to events in the actual world over the last 5 or 6 years off the top of my head, and this would turn into a more political discussion that what is allowed here.

They are going to do what they attempted to do with Tevinter:  Exalted March, with the Elves:  Exalted March.  We're probably fixing to have an Exalted March against the mages.  My last playthrough of Origins ended with them considering an Exalted March against Orzammar.  Nice peaceful religion, that won't care if you blow up their churches and "force" them to behave, right?

[robertthebard]

Itkovian wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Which is why I think we should get rid of the Chantry too.  I mean, come on, they want to do an Exalted March on Orzammar in my last game because the mages founded a Circle there, and they won't let the Chantry in.  So forced conversion to Andrastianism is acceptable, since it's humans?  If the answer is no, then based on your logic for disposing of the Qunari, we must then eliminate the Chantry as well.  After all, we can't have religious zealots allowed to run loose forcing their religion on people.

The comparison is utterly unsound, however. Qunari are invading and converting by the sword (and by fecking chemical/magical LOBOTOMY) the people of Thedas simply by virtue of not having the same religion. The exalted marches on Orzammar on the other hand, which are merely CONSIDERED and never actually happen, come up specifically because the Chantry believes itself wronged by the dwarves of Orzammar.

The Orzammar circle is an issue because Apostates are circumventing Chantry law by taking refuge in Orzammar, which the Chantry sees as a bunch of mages who are using the dwarves to be able to do what they want. Remember, there are no dwarven mages, so logically any Circle in Orzammar is merely a refuge for surfacer apostates fleeing Chantry law.

And the other reason an Exalted March is considered is because the dwarves of Orzammar actively repress and KILL dwarves who converted to the Chantry. It's the Chantry faithful who are being wronged in that case, so it's entirely normal that some sort of retaliation is considered.

Heck, if anything Bioware has been very careful to actually INVERT the usual trope of the Big Evil Monolithic Religion when it comes to the Chantry. Take a look at DA2 and Asunder... Grand Cleric Elthina (sp?) is just about the most reasonable person involved in the Mage/Templar conflict, while in Asunder the Divine practically sides with the mages (prompting the Templars to reject her authority and going rogue).

Now, the Chantry isn't perfect, naturally, and we see quite a few fanatical clerics in the series, and their treatment of mages is still reprehensible... but it is entire orders of magnitude removed from the evils of the Qunari.

Heck, on the mage topic alone the Qunari come out as demented monsters compared to the Chantry. Add to that their very real nature as fascistic eugenist tyrant, and there is no doubt in my mind which is the greatest menace to Thedas.

And really, I find the usual defense that people would embrace the Qun because it "gives them a sense a purpose" and offer stability and what not to be reprehensible. It still is a complete denial of individual freedoms, and nobody bloody well enjoys that. It's the sort of ludicrous argument that slavers used to justify their actions (they get food and shelter, don't need to worry about finding a job, and so forth). Just because someone is an uneducated, ignorant peasant does NOT mean they enjoy having no freedom. And we don't need look far back in history to prove it.

Heck, that's not even considering the wonderful contrubition that the Ben-hassrath make to Qunari society. Religious Thought Police are always a wonderful thing. I'm STILL miffed we didn't get to shove a sword in Tallis' face the moment she got misty-eyed at how the Ben-hassrath are wonderful.

So, +1 once more for the OP. I doubt it's going to happen, but hopefully we can rack up a nice Qunari bodycount.

Yeah, no.  The Chantry has no claim to take offense at what happens in Orzammar.  There is no established Chantry there in any of my playthroughs.  Why?  Because Dwarves don't worship the Maker, and shouldn't be forced to so that the humans can maybe be forgiven for their sins.  The Chantry is far from being a saint in the wage war to convert the heathen masses category.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So you want to kill the harmless Qunari farmer, but the avid Andrastian mage hater who oppresses Elves, is innocent?

You sure love your ridiculous strawmen.

I will put an end to the activities of any bully, regardless of their religious beliefs.

There is no such thing as a "harmless" Qunari. All Qunari believe in violently subjugating all non-Qunari. It is a requirement of their religion.

So all Qunari are dangerous merely by association? So a Qunari farmer is not dangerous because of who he is, but because of what he is? A Qunari.
The same arguement could be made about mages. But we all know you feverently favor them. So it all comes down to ideology. And merely because you disagree with the Qunari, you think they need to be exterminated down to the last woman and child. For instance, crippling their military power is not enough, you want total genocide of their entire species and culture.

[Plaintiff]

robertthebard wrote...
According to Andraste, the Maker will forgive man's sins, and return(?), when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world.  So, are they gonna go ask nicely for people to convert?  I'm not going to touch the issues in your reply to me, due to events in the actual world over the last 5 or 6 years off the top of my head, and this would turn into a more political discussion that what is allowed here.

They are going to do what they attempted to do with Tevinter:  Exalted March, with the Elves:  Exalted March.  We're probably fixing to have an Exalted March against the mages.  My last playthrough of Origins ended with them considering an Exalted March against Orzammar.  Nice peaceful religion, that won't care if you blow up their churches and "force" them to behave, right?

Again, these are the actions of The Chantry, not of all Andrastians. There is more than one kind of Andrastism, The Chantry is just the largest, most visible sect.

Not all Andrastians are members of the Chantry, just like not all Christians are members of the Catholic church. Not all Andrastians interpret the Chant of Light the same way either.

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
So all Qunari are dangerous merely by association? So a Qunari farmer is not dangerous because of who he is, but because of what he is? A Qunari.

If you willingly join a gang of rapists, knowing full well that they are rapists, and sit around in their base, making them sandwiches so they have something to eat when they come home from a full day of raping people, are you a good person? Or are you a criminal who supports violent rapists instead of reporting them to the police?

The same arguement could be made about mages.

No it couldn't. They are not morally equivalent positions at all. A mage is something you are born as, and being a mage does not prevent you from being a good person who helps others, or at least minds their own business. A Qunari is something you choose to be, and hurting others is a requirement of the religion.

But we all know you feverently favor them. So it all comes down to ideology. And merely because you disagree with the Qunari, you think they need to be exterminated down to the last woman and child. For instance, crippling their military power is not enough, you want total genocide of their entire species and culture.

Fair is fair. I'm only as genocidal towards the Qunari as they are towards everyone else. If they change their doctrine, I'll change my attitude.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 mai 2013 - 02:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Qunari are neither rapists nor racists, and they have no interrest in genocide. You have some very skewered view of the Qunari, and obvious side effect of your bias. And many Qunari did not make a choice of being Qunari, they were simply born in the Qunari lands, and are simply living in the society they were brought up in. And no, hurting others is definitively NOT a "requirement" of the Qun.