353 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 And no, hurting others is definitively NOT a "requirement" of the Qun.

It is if they resist.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari are neither rapists nor racists, and they have no interrest in genocide. You have some very skewered view of the Qunari, and obvious side effect of your bias. And many Qunari did not make a choice of being Qunari, they were simply born in the Qunari lands, and are simply living in the society they were brought up in. And no, hurting others is definitively NOT a "requirement" of the Qun.

They are absolutely racists. They want to destroy the religion and culutre of every non-Qunari and force them to subscribe to their way of thinking. It is the very definition of racism, not to mention the very definition of genocide.

In what way is forced conversion not hurting others? How is forcing them to take mind-altering drugs not hurting them? How is killing them when they refuse to convert not hurting them? How is taking away their ability to choose their own career paths not hurting them?

These are all demands of the Qun. A Qunari who failed to fulfill these demands would be labelled Tal-Vashoth, and would either be executed or forced to undergo re-education.

[robertthebard]

Plaintiff wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
According to Andraste, the Maker will forgive man's sins, and return(?), when the Chant is sung from all corners of the world.  So, are they gonna go ask nicely for people to convert?  I'm not going to touch the issues in your reply to me, due to events in the actual world over the last 5 or 6 years off the top of my head, and this would turn into a more political discussion that what is allowed here.

They are going to do what they attempted to do with Tevinter:  Exalted March, with the Elves:  Exalted March.  We're probably fixing to have an Exalted March against the mages.  My last playthrough of Origins ended with them considering an Exalted March against Orzammar.  Nice peaceful religion, that won't care if you blow up their churches and "force" them to behave, right?

Again, these are the actions of The Chantry, not of all Andrastians. There is more than one kind of Andrastism, The Chantry is just the largest, most visible sect.

Not all Andrastians are members of the Chantry, just like not all Christians are members of the Catholic church. Not all Andrastians interpret the Chant of Light the same way either.

So herein lies the dilemma; how do you know which ones do, and which ones don't?  How do you know that sparing group C won't result in another militant branch with the same ideals as the previous one, only now, with a grudge since you wiped out their counterparts?  Half measures avail you nothing, but future problems.  If you don't deal with it now, you're going to have issues later.

[robertthebard]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 And no, hurting others is definitively NOT a "requirement" of the Qun.

It is if they resist.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Which is also true of the Chantry.

[Plaintiff]

robertthebard wrote...
So herein lies the dilemma; how do you know which ones do, and which ones don't?  How do you know that sparing group C won't result in another militant branch with the same ideals as the previous one, only now, with a grudge since you wiped out their counterparts?  Half measures avail you nothing, but future problems.  If you don't deal with it now, you're going to have issues later.

Innocent until proven guilty. If someone I spared forms a fascist theocracy later, I'll deal with them when it happens, but I won't kill someone for a crime they've yet to commit.

[robertthebard]

Plaintiff wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
So herein lies the dilemma; how do you know which ones do, and which ones don't?  How do you know that sparing group C won't result in another militant branch with the same ideals as the previous one, only now, with a grudge since you wiped out their counterparts?  Half measures avail you nothing, but future problems.  If you don't deal with it now, you're going to have issues later.

Innocent until proven guilty. If someone I spared forms a fascist theocracy later, I'll deal with them when it happens, but I won't kill someone for a crime they've yet to commit.

You're going to kill Qunari farmers for crimes others have committed, so it's just a species thing, and not a religious thing?

[Dave of Canada]

"I'LL KILL ANYONE WHO FORCES THEIR WILL UPON OTHERS"

Irony is delicious.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 mai 2013 - 02:51 .

[sandalisthemaker]

robertthebard wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

 And no, hurting others is definitively NOT a "requirement" of the Qun.

It is if they resist.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Which is also true of the Chantry.

I don't suppport the Chantry.
And this thread isn't about the Chantry. It's about the Qun.
You can't refute my claims otherwise, so you keep throwing the Chantry in.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Qunari are neither rapists nor racists, and they have no interrest in genocide. You have some very skewered view of the Qunari, and obvious side effect of your bias. And many Qunari did not make a choice of being Qunari, they were simply born in the Qunari lands, and are simply living in the society they were brought up in. And no, hurting others is definitively NOT a "requirement" of the Qun.

They are absolutely racists. They want to destroy the religion and culutre of every non-Qunari and force them to subscribe to their way of thinking. It is the very definition of racism, not to mention the very definition of genocide.

In what way is forced conversion not hurting others? How is forcing them to take mind-altering drugs not hurting them? How is killing them when they refuse to convert not hurting them? How is taking away their ability to choose their own career paths not hurting them?

These are all demands of the Qun. A Qunari who failed to fulfill these demands would be labelled Tal-Vashoth, and would either be executed or forced to undergo re-education.

So far as I am concerned I have seen nothing in the Qun that prevents the worship of whatever god you choose to, as long as you still conform to the Qunari society. Take for instance the Rivaini who are allowed to keep their spirit worship, even when they join the Qunari. Qunari doesn't have it out for culture, what they want is to optimise society, so to speak. It is kind of like how the capitalist wants to spread capitalism to the entire world. As long as parts of your culture is compatible with Qunari, the Qunari have nothing against it. And they certainly aren't racists, since they obviously accept all races in the Qun.

Forced conversion is only as hurting as the convertee lets it be. Conversion can also be the one event in the life of the convertee that saves him, but obviously we should disregard these instances.. If you refuse to be part of the Qunari society, the Qunari will make you useful in their society regardless. However the demand of the Qun sounds that all should do their part, not that you must hurt others, so again your gross simplification falls flat.

And how exactly is giving everybody a job hurting them? Some people would find great comfort in the certainty that the Qun would give them, they would see the purpose of their life, and they would be happy. Of course, these cases should be ignored, as they are favorable of the Qun. If the Qun does a good job, it will place you in your dream job, the one where you could do the most good for everyone around you. Childish selfishness that you promote have no place in the Qun.

To truly understand the Qun, you have to try and see it through the lens of the Qunari. To understand a concept as alien as the Qun, you cannot see it through the lens of life as you know it, since that will serve you short, as it is, as said, alien. Of course that would be asking too much for the vast majority of people, and they thus cling to the intellectually inferior petty hate.

[Itkovian]

robertthebard wrote...

Yeah, no.  The Chantry has no claim to take offense at what happens in Orzammar.  There is no established Chantry there in any of my playthroughs.  Why?  Because Dwarves don't worship the Maker, and shouldn't be forced to so that the humans can maybe be forgiven for their sins.  The Chantry is far from being a saint in the wage war to convert the heathen masses category.

In my playthrough, at least, there is a Chantry being established, or at least a cult. Which is then violently suppressed by hardliners. That's certainly cause for outrage from the Chantry.

And agreed, the Chantry is not faultless and has done some Very Bad Things. But it's definitely not following the usual Big Bad Monolithic Church trope we see in many fantasies (and I'd argue reality as well *grin*).

Meanwhile the Qunari manages to combined some of the worst practices we've seen in societies in the last century. Nothing like a fascist eugenistic tyrannical society with religious thought police bent on world domination to brighten up a world setting.

[sandalisthemaker]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So far as I am concerned I have seen nothing in the Qun that prevents the worship of whatever god you choose to, as long as you still conform to the Qunari society. Take for instance the Rivaini who are allowed to keep their spirit worship, even when they join the Qunari. Qunari doesn't have it out for culture, what they want is to optimise society, so to speak. It is kind of like how the capitalist wants to spread capitalism to the entire world. As long as parts of your culture is compatible with Qunari, the Qunari have nothing against it. And they certainly aren't racists, since they obviously accept all races in the Qun.

Forced conversion is only as hurting as the convertee lets it be. Conversion can also be the one event in the life of the convertee that saves him, but obviously we should disregard these instances.. If you refuse to be part of the Qunari society, the Qunari will make you useful in their society regardless. However the demand of the Qun sounds that all should do their part, not that you must hurt others, so again your gross simplification falls flat.

 Childish selfishness that you promote have no place in the Qun.

As I have already quoted:

"When the Qun became law, the temples kossith built to honor their animist gods were destroyed, and their priests were reeducated or driven to exile.  Any worship of a god or gods, such as the Maker, is forbidden and is stopped with violence if necessary."
                                                                     World of Thedas pg127.

Rofl. Okay, so you think everyone else *should* bow down and submit. How dare they want their freedom?

You are a quamek slave. I pity you.

[Itkovian]

Plaintiff wrote...

They are absolutely racists. They want to destroy the religion and culutre of every non-Qunari and force them to subscribe to their way of thinking. It is the very definition of racism, not to mention the very definition of genocide.

In what way is forced conversion not hurting others? How is forcing them to take mind-altering drugs not hurting them? How is killing them when they refuse to convert not hurting them? How is taking away their ability to choose their own career paths not hurting them?

These are all demands of the Qun. A Qunari who failed to fulfill these demands would be labelled Tal-Vashoth, and would either be executed or forced to undergo re-education.

Nice to see some sane people in this thread.

The amusing part is something like the Qun in the real world would immediately be condemned by pretty much the entire free world. Indeed, it HAS been and currently IS, though its not as extreme in reality.

If there's one thing that's arisen through our evolving moral zeitgeist, it's that the denial of freedom is one of the gravest evils once can do. Heck, slavers used the same arguments I see here to justify their ownership of slaves in the first place. It gives them purpose, after all. Why, they don't even need to worry about finding a job and feeding themselves. How generous the slavers were, and what a shame those abolitionist ended the African American Utopia.

Heck, shall we now state that the Qun frees them from the agony of decision? It's so NICE to have our entire life planned out for us, and our individual desires suborned by the need of the Qun. Why, if we're brainwashed properly from childbirth, we won't even HAVE individual desires anyway, so that makes it allright.

Seriously. That's some truly troubling world view here. It's reprehensible and abhorrent. We've had world wars over less excessive insanity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So far as I am concerned I have seen nothing in the Qun that prevents the worship of whatever god you choose to, as long as you still conform to the Qunari society. Take for instance the Rivaini who are allowed to keep their spirit worship, even when they join the Qunari. Qunari doesn't have it out for culture, what they want is to optimise society, so to speak. It is kind of like how the capitalist wants to spread capitalism to the entire world. As long as parts of your culture is compatible with Qunari, the Qunari have nothing against it. And they certainly aren't racists, since they obviously accept all races in the Qun.

Forced conversion is only as hurting as the convertee lets it be. Conversion can also be the one event in the life of the convertee that saves him, but obviously we should disregard these instances.. If you refuse to be part of the Qunari society, the Qunari will make you useful in their society regardless. However the demand of the Qun sounds that all should do their part, not that you must hurt others, so again your gross simplification falls flat.

 Childish selfishness that you promote have no place in the Qun.

As I have already quoted:

"When the Qun became law, the temples kossith built to honor their animist gods were destroyed, and their priests were reeducated or driven to exile.  Any worship of a god or gods, such as the Maker, is forbidden and is stopped with violence if necessary."
                                                                     World of Thedas pg127.

Rofl. Okay, so you think everyone else *should* bow down and submit. How dare they want their freedom?

You are a quamek slave. I pity you.

I stand corrected, religion have no place in the Qun. I havn't read through the entire World of Thedas yet, so that particular phrase elluded me. But, basically that's a huge plus for the Qunari in the eyes of most of you anyway, since you obviously got a large stick up your bums concerning religions.

And considering I probably wouldn't fight the Qunari, I doubt I would be Qamek... You on the other hand probably would be, since you obviously abhor the very idea of certainty and purpose.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 03 mai 2013 - 03:25 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

[sandalisthemaker]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

I'm surprised they let you get away with an avatar like that.

[The Elder King]

Bioware, please give us the option of eradicate everyone beside the nugs.

Modifié par hhh89, 03 mai 2013 - 03:54 .

[LvrdAjay]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

 So something tells me that  those wacky Qunari will be back in DA3.
Perhaps they will be the big bad swooping in while the mages and Templars are busy tearing eachother apart?
I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of players killed the Arishok in DA2, so surely their Qun would demand revenge for the death of such an important pillar of their religion.
With Sten as the new Arishok, this would provide a familiar face to the enemy leader, which would be interesting. 
 MoTA's plot involved them, and I was dissappointed that I could not stop Tallis after finding out who she really was and what she was trying to do. 
I would like the option to land a serious blow to the Qun and its followers once again. Killing the first Arishok was great, and I would have no qualms about killing Sten if need be.
Make it happen, Bioware.

Sten is awesome...Sten is soo awesome that his awesomeness makes all your points invalid. Awesome....

[Noctis Augustus]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

I'm surprised they let you get away with an avatar like that.

Why? What's wrong with my avatar?

[sandalisthemaker]

ibbikiookami wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

I'm surprised they let you get away with an avatar like that.

Why? What's wrong with my avatar?

I don't personally have a problem with it.
Just figured that the depiction of such blatant, gruesome violence enacted on a child would be frownded upon by the mods.
I guess since it's anime it's okay? *shrugs*

[billy the squid]

ibbikiookami wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

I'm surprised they let you get away with an avatar like that.

Why? What's wrong with my avatar?

Change it to gay sex, you'll be fine.

[Noctis Augustus]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

I'm surprised they let you get away with an avatar like that.

Why? What's wrong with my avatar?

I don't personally have a problem with it.
Just figured that the depiction of such blatant, gruesome violence enacted on a child would be frownded upon by the mods.
I guess since it's anime it's okay? *shrugs*

There's nothing in the site rules against it.

billy the squid wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Bioware please give us the option to eradicate the Chantry.

I'm surprised they let you get away with an avatar like that.

Why? What's wrong with my avatar?

Change it to gay sex, you'll be fine.

lulz

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 03 mai 2013 - 04:18 .

[sandalisthemaker]

Yes, yes.
I get it people.
Make your own thread. Sheesh.