143 réponses à ce sujet

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

F-C wrote...

GoldenusG wrote...

So because people don't agree with you, they are wrong?  Yes Comrade Dictator.

If you feel that strongly about it, start sending a great many (One after the other, when they turn you down...  Not all at once, that'd be daft...  And counter productive) strongly worded, though polite e-mails to Bioware/EA Customer Services, demanding a refund on your left over points, and then refuse to buy any more DLC till they change to a cash-only based system.  Who knows?  It might even work.

why would i waste my time on that, its not like they are going to listen to any letters i send them. what they care about is the bottom dollar they are making, and thats about it. they have even told us that before, so whatever there.

i dont have left-over points because i wont buy them. as far as im concerned im not going to buy points to buy products in the future either. sell me a product for a direct cash value or lose me as a customer. the end.

Bioware is advertising on their website $7USD for Warden's Keep.  I go to buy it, and I see a $7 package.  I buy that. Then I go into the game and downloaded the DLC with in the game.  Now, how exactly did Bioware not sell me this DLC for direct cash value?

I guess they could have done it the old way instead of the easy way.  The old way being, Paying the $7.  Click on the download link, wait for it to complete downloading.  Click the file to install the DLC.  Compared to now where it takes out 1 step, which is click to install the DLC, since the DLC is downloaded and installed in one step in the DLC UI in the game.

its not one step though. you have to jump through hoops. first you have to go buy the points, then go back to the game and pick the dlc, then download the dlc, then install the dlc.

directly would be go to the website, purchase the dlc, download and install it. 

your bias shows through though when you think including the extra steps of having to purchase the points, and make sure you dont buy the wrong package of points, is the 'easy way' lol.

the easy way would really be to have the DLC listed for purchase and you just click "Buy", checkout and download it. no extra steps involved.

i know its rather pointless to try and argue this with you though because you seem to think these point systems are amazing for god knows what reason.

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

How do you know it is not necessary?  It has been said that the point system makes it easier and cost effective for the developers to progam the DLC UI system with in the game, rather then making localized versions for every monatary system in the world that this game sells in.

they already have the system in place to buy the points with different currencies, it would not be harder to just sell the DLC directly and use the exact same conversion tool, give me a break.

[Seifz]

Severian75 wrote...

While I have never before met a point for DLC system I liked, I can say I not only don't have a problem this one, but I see why it is there.

Most companies do rip off the customer with the point systems. M$ points are an obvious and notorious example. Champion point, another example. They are sold in specific size batches that are no where close to being even a multiple of the price of the content.

With the BW points, they not only aren't forcing extra point on a person, they don't even make you do the math. You don't have to calculate "how many multiples of XXX points do I need to buy these 2 downloads?" You just look and say, I'm buying a download for 400 points, I'll buy the 400 point package. I am also buying the download for 560 points, I'll buy the 560 point package as well. No math involved. It's more of a pre-school matching game than math.

Now, I can see how, at first glance, this seems like an unnecessary system that only adds complication, but here is my guess as to why it is used. This game is available on multiple platforms in multiple countries. The DLC BW points will also very likely (as mentioned before) be utilized for future game releases. The points system creates a single currency for the game (or multiple games in the future), no matter what platform or what country you are buying from. I don't think the in-game purchase and download would be very feasible without a points system. (I also personally prefer not using my credit card on my xbox. No hard facts as to why, just preference. At least on my PC I can install my own security software to suit my own level of a "secure-feeling".)

I just don't see it.

Think about the PS3 system, where you have a wallet with real money in it and you can tie that wallet to a credit/debit/bank card.  When you want to purchase something from a game, say a track pack for Rock Band, you just select what you want from in the game and a little screen pops up to confirm your purchase.  Done.  No points necessary, and I had the benefit of seeing just how much "real money" those three songs are costing me.  (As an aside, all you people whining about the price of Warden's Keep amuse me greatly.  Do you know how much people are willing to pay for a single, 3-minute song in RB2?  Ha!)

Anyway, I don't see why BioWare couldn't have done the same thing.  Right now, my journal shows me how many points I have.  Why couldn't it just show me how many <insert real currency> I have instead?  The game is already translated into a dozen or so languages, so I doubt that switching out a $ for another currency sign would be a monumental task.  The pricing scheme for points is already in place for multiple currencies.  Why not just put those prices on the DLC instead?

I mean, in all honesty, "if(BW_Points >= DLC_Cost)" isn't any different than "if(Wallet_Value >= DLC_Cost)" from a programming perspective.

[daem3an]

F-C wrote...
its not one step though. you have to jump through hoops. first you have to go buy the points, then go back to the game and pick the dlc, then download the dlc, then install the dlc.

directly would be go to the website, purchase the dlc, download and install it. 

To be fair, that's only one extra step. If that step means less work/cost on Bioware's end to provide dlc for all currencies/regions, which results in a lower price overall, I'll support it.

[LSDS]

Severian75 wrote...

The points system creates a single currency for the game (or multiple games in the future), no matter what platform or what country you are buying from.

Each platform uses its own point system to purchase DA:O DLC.  The Bioware points are only used on the PC platform.  

[Statue]

I think the defence of the points system that claims that with the correct choice of package there's no extra charge involved is fine, so long as points packages are offered that are exactly at the cost of available DLCs - they are presently, so fair enough on that line of defence until such a time as that changes (if it does, expect booing). However, the points system needs to be more than merely defensible - it needs to have advantages over just allowing customers to pay in a simpler way using standard currency, or else it's pointless (pardon the pun), as it just adds a layer to the purchase (you could feasibly add another layer, and have customers buying Points Tokens that they use to buy Bioware Points, but if it didn't confer any benefit to anyone it would just be unneccessary - which is what the Bioware Points system is *unless* if has advantages over straightforward direct purchasing).

So what are the advantages of the customer buying via credit-to-points-to-purchase compared to the usual credit-to-purchase?


A possible benefit might apply if this wasn't a mature-rated game. For example, a parent could purchase some gaming points for their children allowing them to then make purchases they want without entailing giving them the opportunity to spend all the rent-money on software. That doesn't apply with DAO as it's not software for children.

Another possible benefit might be one to the seller from people overpurchasing points they don't use - free money. I'm not saying that's why it's been implemented that way, as I have no evidence to support such a claim. But it is a possible benefit of the system to the seller whether I like it or not. And I really am trying to find what the benefit of the system is here.

Another benefit (again to the seller) may be from the potential masking of the price that adding a layer brings (a modern extention of the classic "price it 29.99 rather than 30.00" line of sales psychology that has endured rather well).

Finally, I've read about ease-of-in-game-use benefits. That is, it is somehow easier to allow for in-game purchases to occur if it is done via points rather than currency. Now how is that the case? Count the number of actions involved: 1) buy points from the website to cover the DLCs you intend to purchase, 2) start the game up and use those points in exchange for DLC; versus the cash system's 1) buy the DLCs directly from the website, 2) start the game up and download the DLC now authorized. I'm not seeing how the points system makes for easier in-game purchasing - in either case, there's both a transaction on a sales website and an activation within the game. Not faster, not easier - *unless* the assumption is that I buy more points than I intend to use on that one occasion so that when future DLCs are released I can make the exchange for DLC within the game without having to visit a DLC purchasing site on that second occasion... that would be faster and easier, but of course presents the real possibility of me accumulating points that I don't redeem, meaning I've made a donation on top of my purchase. So the benefit of easier/faster in-game purchasing only seems to apply where people over-spend on points, which potentially creates the aforementioned benefit to the seller, of free money.



The benefits of the system (which need to exist in order to justify it over the traditional direct purchase method) appear to be then: a) the seller may obtain free money from people overpurchasing points either by calculation error or where they anticipate future DLCs they'd like to obtain that don't arrive to meet their overpurchase; the seller has a greater chance of masking the true cost of what they're selling; and c) the buyer benefits from ease of use by overpurchasing points so as to not have to revisit the DLC/points purchase site on future occasions, thereby being more at risk of contributing to free money to the seller as per (a).

In conclusion, the benefits don't seem to really be tangible ones for the buyer, and the ones conferred to the seller are not admirable ones, whether the system is designed to reap those benefits intentionally or not. Unless there are other benefits to the system that I'm missing? Maybe a tiny saving to the buyer/seller (or both) from being able to purchase multiple DLCs with a single transaction (i.e. paypal and credit card transaction costs are minimised by fewer transactions)? There has to be another benefit to avoid a verdict of "it sucks". If there is, maybe it doesn't. If there isn't... well, it sucks.

Modifié par Statue, 29 novembre 2009 - 12:21 .

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

Wrong,  Downloading and Installing the DLC is the same step in the DLC UI in the game.

1- Go buy 560 points
2- Get into game
3- Click Wardens keep in Available DLC
4- Wait
5- Play

Or your way
1- Go buy Wardens Keep
2- Click to download the DLC
3- Wait
4- Click to install DLC
5- Wait
6- Get into game
7- If it doesn't do it automatically, make sure the DLC is selected to be active in the game

So really, your way is 2-3 extra steps, meaning more hoops to have to go through.

wrong, its like this :

1 - check point value of dlc
2 - check point packages
3 - buy appropriate point package
4 - load game
5 - buy dlc
6 - install dlc
7 - play game


versus directly

1 - buy dlc
2 - install dlc
3 - play game

Modifié par F-C, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

Outside of the game, yes you are right, but with in the game it self.  But not with in the game when they want players to see what DLC is available and how much it is.  When I am in the game and see a new DLC saying 400 points, I automically already know that it is $5.  Someone in another country when they see 400 points they will more then likely already know how much that will be in their currency.  It is about showing information with in the game.

In order to show the price of the DLC in every countries currency with in the game, let me say this again since you didn't seem to catch it the first time,

In order to who the price of the DLC in every countried currency with in the game Bioware would need to make a localized version of the game for every countried currency, which means there would be a whole lot more versions and lots more different patches needed for every country.

if i need to go to the website to buy points every time a new dlc is introduced i dont see the reason why this would be a problem. im going to the website anyways right? just show me the price there.

i also find it hard to believe that tacking a small monetary conversion tool on the dlc list would be hard if they did want to show prices in the game.

they could simply have the currency conversion tool in the game, it has to be a rather tiny program as its just simple math really, and put a drop down list at the top "display prices in what currency" and have it automatically convert the prices in the game if they want to advertise prices in game.

it doesnt really matter through, they can just say "New Dlc available to download, go check it out now!!" and people will go see what it is.

they would have to go buy points anyhow the way it is now, it just adds extra steps though.

Modifié par F-C, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:25 .

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

You mean the point value that is staring me in the face in the DLC UI in the game? I saw 560 points, so I bought 560 points.  Your way you see Warden's Keep, buy Wardens Keep, both are the same step as the #1s I put.

I like how you didn't include downloading the DLC, loading the game, and checking to make sure you are buying the right DLC in your way.

both ways have to download and install the dlc. i simply reduced it to install because it doesnt matter which way you go with it, you have to spend the exact same amount of time on downloading and installing.

the fact you are trying to argue that you would have to check to make sure you bought the right thing you clicked on and purchased at the website is just a joke.

"omg i clicked buy wardens keep, i installed wardens keep, but now i need to take time and make extra extra extra sure i really got wardens keep!!"

lol, mhmm.

[Statue]

eisberg77 wrote...


Wrong, Downloading and Installing the DLC is the same step in the DLC UI in the game.

1- Go buy 560 points
2- Get into game
3- Click Wardens keep in Available DLC
4- Wait
5- Play

Or your way
1- Go buy Wardens Keep
2- Click to download the DLC
3- Wait
4- Click to install DLC
5- Wait
6- Get into game
7- If it doesn't do it automatically, make sure the DLC is selected to be active in the game

So really, your way is 2-3 extra steps, meaning more hoops to have to go through.

Misleading. Those step differences are not to do with whether the purchase is made by points or credit and you've added install and waits and a check in the second method that you don't list in the first.

You do have to wait while it installs in both cases, so listing Install and Wait in one and not the other just bloats the second list unfairly.

And as for 7, you add it to the second method but not the first? Hmm. The Activated Content tab is there in the points method to toggle them on and off, and you can check what's installed there within the present points system. Listing a check of that tab for one method but not the other is just an artificial way of boosting the steps-listing methinks, on top of the install and wait. 4, 5, and 7 are there because you've added them, not because of direct purchasing versus points purchasing.

You might argue that direct purchasing might entail a manual install rather than an automatic install. That would sound more plausible, but again wouldn't have to be the case given the way registration and authorization keys work . Your game has a unique key and purchases authorize related to that key, so the same automation could be applied regardless of points or credit purchasing. When you've bought points and you log in to the game, it retrieves how many points you have from your online points account. That online points account could equally well hold the information about what DLC you have purchased, so the content delivery method could be identical once in game regardless of points or credit purchasing. The difference is that points purchasing rather than direct purchasing adds a step, however the rest is automated or not. That step is buying points before buying DLC.

Modifié par Statue, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:59 .

[Severian75]

LSDS wrote...

Severian75 wrote...

The points system creates a single currency for the game (or multiple games in the future), no matter what platform or what country you are buying from.

Each platform uses its own point system to purchase DA:O DLC.  The Bioware points are only used on the PC platform.  

Sorry, my mistake. I misunderstood something I had seen posted (and since I only have the PC version, I didn't have the personal experience to re-interpuret).

It still makes for an easier in-game system. They do not have to regionalize that piece of the game.

... By the way, doesn't it take more time and effort to come to the forum, log in, search or browse, type out a post, read the replies, create an arguement to refute (we'll just say that they do refute it), rinse, repeat... than it does to buy points and download content? Just saying, if your argument is that there is one extra step (ok, break it into microscopic parts and call it 2 additional since you have to compare price of item to points package), is it really that big of a deal?

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

F-C wrote...

eisberg77 wrote...

You mean the point value that is staring me in the face in the DLC UI in the game? I saw 560 points, so I bought 560 points.  Your way you see Warden's Keep, buy Wardens Keep, both are the same step as the #1s I put.

I like how you didn't include downloading the DLC, loading the game, and checking to make sure you are buying the right DLC in your way.

the fact you are trying to argue that you would have to check to make sure you bought the right thing you clicked on and purchased at the website is just a joke.

yeah, we feel the same way about your "I can't do simple math" argument

and this when you break down to trolling and random flames.

its not about simple math, its about being inconvenienced and forced to jump through hoops when you are the customer.

it was nice discussing it with you though, when you ignore the rest and just make a troll reply i think we are done.

[F-C]

eisberg77 wrote...

That currency tools would need to be patched and updated each and everytime there is a change in exchange rates.  Once again, the point system makes it easier for the developers.

they are already overcharging most people who dont use USD as their currency, so i dont see how this would be a problem either. just keep charging them more and you cant possibly lose.

[Wardawg1001]

Please don't pretend that theres something wrong with the points system because it makes it more difficult, its sad really. If you want to break it down to make it seem like theres an extra step, go for it, because it doesn't mean anything. We all know why people dont like the points system:



1. You think they are going to go the way of microsoft and some other systems and try to screw people over eventually by not allowing points to be bought in exact increments.



2. You didn't pay attention and are already under the assumption that points have to be bought in increments not compatible with the cost of the DLC.



3. You are just against it on principle because you've been screwed by other points systems.



1 and 2 are valid reasons to be against it, but if thats your opinion then just state it and be done with it. Dragging this out to make it seem like its this whole big deal because of how difficult it is to purchase DLC now is an obvious ploy to make your opinion seem more valid. Everyone who has purchased the DLC and isn't an idiot already knows it isn't difficult, and people who haven't purchased any DLC or are idiots don't have valid opinions on the topic.

[marshalleck]

There's also the possibility that people are motivated to lash out against the point system just because they think all extra content should be free, so they find any reason to flame it. And no, I'm not pointing any fingers.

Modifié par marshalleck, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[Shinji Ex]

BioWare does not really have exp when it comes to making DLC maybe they should call Bethesda for help

[F-C]

well im going to head out and enjoy the evening, i better go buy a 100$ "life point" package because you know noone in real life actually accepts cash money for their products. you need points or you are SOL.



laters.

[kevinwastaken]

BioWare's marketing department must have been taken over by the brain slugs at EA.



"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." - Bill Hicks