429 réponses à ce sujet

[MyChemicalBromance]

David7204 wrote...

It gets a bit irritating after a while to hear literally every character derided as either 'wasted potential' if they don't have a good deal of content or 'shoved down our throats' if they do have a good deal of content.

The best example of this is Liara in ME2. She crossed the entire spectrum from launch to LotSB.

[Megaton_Hope]

David7204 wrote...

It gets a bit irritating after a while to hear literally every character derided as either 'wasted potential' if they don't have a good deal of content or 'shoved down our throats' if they do have a good deal of content.

It's not a question of the amount of content, but the content of the content. There's actually a fair amount of EDI-related content in the game, it just bored me.

[PsyrenY]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The best example of this is Liara in ME2. She crossed the entire spectrum from launch to LotSB.

Let me tell you, BSN was positively hilarious to those who've been here long enough. I literally watched "OMG BIOWER WHERE'S LIARA!" threads morph almost in front of my eyes into "WTF BIOWER TOO MUCH LIARA!" It was mind-blowing.

Megaton_Hope wrote...

I feel like the idea of a sentient machine taking on physical form has a lot of unexplored potential, which due to the approach taken just languishes on the shelf.

I actually agree - but there was already way, way too much going on in this game to deal with that. So having everyone on the Citadel write her off as a "personal assistance mech" to avoid the stickier ethics was 100% fine with me.

[TheProtheans]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Argolas wrote...

You can create sexy characters without oversexualizing their character models.

+10000

+1000000000
Just look at black window in the Avengers for a character that does that successfully.

[David7204]

Was Black Widow the chick with red hair in Iron Man 2?

Because she was god-awful.

Modifié par David7204, 03 mai 2013 - 08:48 .

[TheProtheans]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Looks like all the designs have larger-than-average ****** to me.

Blame TIM

[TheProtheans]

spirosz wrote...

That is very anti male, when it is largely the females fault.

[David7204]

That comic is what a lot of it boils down to. 'It's wrong to appreciate beauty.'

There are ugly implications, no doubt. But that's a price I gladly pay.

As for the 'moral,' it's nonsense, of course. You're completely free to think of yourself however you like without 'proving' a thing. But the world is not obligated to agree.

Modifié par David7204, 03 mai 2013 - 09:07 .

[TheProtheans]

It is female culture to make themselves look pretty and such.
They have industries dedicated to it with heavy influence from both females and non straight males.
Who are we say this is oversexualisation when it is no different to the world in which we live in.
I for one approve of standards females set themselves to and wish to see it in it's full glory.

[Mangalores]

TheProtheans wrote...

It is female culture to make themselves look pretty and such.
They have industries dedicated to it with heavy influence from both females and non straight males.
Who are we say this is oversexualisation when it is no different to the world in which we live in.
I for one approve of standards females set themselves to and wish to see it in it's full glory.

The standards are funnily enough actually not set for females. Most advertisement and design decisions  with oversexualization is targeted for males.

[David7204]

It's irrelevant.

The fact of the matter is, standards of beauty are going to exist. Every culture has them, including cultures whose people have never seen an advertisement or movie or video game.

Some people are going to meet those standards. And some people aren't.

[Mangalores]

David7204 wrote...

It's irrelevant.

The fact of the matter is, standards of beauty are going to exist. Every culture has them, including cultures whose people have never seen an advertisement or movie or video game.

...

The question of beauty is not the issue. The ridicule ideas what is considered beauty can be as they are partially genetically and partially cultural. Just consider Chinese footbinding and other kinds of crazy.

The oversexualized beauty standards promoted by advertisment are not actually humanly possible, at best they are unhealthy but usually they involve kilograms of make up and Photoshop. Heck, most male comic heroes have muscles that would point to cancer and steroid abuse, not muscles. They are anatomically false.

All this has little to do with "natural beauty". It has to do with manipulating human pattern recognition and base instincts which are generally speaking pretty stupid and respond to exaggeration in an exaggerated manner. There have been behaviour studies with volleyballs and geese. The geese prefered sitting on the volley balls thinking because of their size these "eggs" were more likely to hatch.

It's a bit like visual drug abuse. You use artificial patterns to cause triggers in our brains to fire (usually ones with positive hormone output). That's also why comics with extremely abstracted characters still work for us. Our base patterns are that simple.

EDIT: Maybe it is also worthwhile to point to classical and Corinthian Greek statues. The former are anatomical correct, however look lifeless. The Greeks found out that to compensate for lack of movement and statues being made of stone you need to exaggerate anatomy and pose to get an emotional response. Corinthian statues look marvelous and lifelike but they are often biologically impossible.

Modifié par Mangalores, 03 mai 2013 - 10:31 .

[David7204]

And that's unfortunate. There's absolutely plenty of distasteful advertisements and harmful behaviors and such. And I regret that. But advertisers are eager to exploit every value and emotion, not just sex.

And of course, there are absolutely works of fiction that depend on sex and very little else. But Mass Effect is absolutely not one of them. I wouldn't have looked twice at Liara or Ashley or whoever before I played the game.

At the end of the day, you still have a choice. And that's the answer. Not demanding that audiences must appreciate plain characters as much as attractive ones (in both fiction and real life) under the threat of being immature or sexist or whatever.

Modifié par David7204, 03 mai 2013 - 11:00 .

[KiwiQuiche]

TheProtheans wrote...

spirosz wrote...

*snip*

That is very anti male, when it is largely the females fault.

God forbid people want to have fun and dress up without being humilated by everyone else.


And how the hell did this thread turn down this road? Ah well, I suppose Bioware sparked it with their stupid comments on the issue.

[David7204]

Kiwi, what exactly is the issue?

Is it that people say awful things? Because yes, that's a problem. But that's also a fact of life.

Or is the problem what people think? That they think an overweight woman dressed up is unattractive?

Demanding that people not say horrible things is reasonable. (Although somewhat pointless. People are going to be rude, and that's just life.)

Demanding that people should not be allowed to think such things is absolutely over the line and absolutely ridiculous. People have every  right to their own minds and every right to make judgements, including judgments you might find humiliating. That's just demanding that the world must find you attractive, that the world is obligated to agree with you. And that's repulsive. But I also suspect that's the core of the issue here.

Modifié par David7204, 03 mai 2013 - 11:16 .

[Astartes Marine]

Voted "Urge... to...Javik...RISING!"
You also get bonus points for the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror V "The Shining" reference.

I didn't care for the body at all. 

[KiwiQuiche]

David7204 wrote...

Kiwi, what exactly is the issue?

Is it that people say awful things? Because yes, that's a problem. But that's also a fact of life.

Or is the problem what people think? That they think an overweight woman dressed up is unattractive?

Demanding that people not say horrible things is reasonable. (Although somewhat pointless. People are going to be rude, and that's just life.)

Demanding that people should not be allowed to think such things is absolutely over the line and absolutely ridiculous. People have every  right to their own minds and every right to make judgements, including judgments you might find humiliating. That's just demanding that the world must find you attractive, that the world is obligated to agree with you. And that's repulsive. But I also suspect that's the core of the issue here.

So because it's a 'fact of life' we should just sit around and accept it and not get angry over it? Well sorry, I'm not going to do that.

When did I say "you can't think stuff like that and I demand you stop"? Seriously David, point that out to me. In the comic they are saying those things to her. They aren't just projecting judgmental thoughts. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. Feel to think it, but don't say/do it or we will have a problem.

[Morlath]

Eva Core was designed to infiltrate society in whatever way required. This has been touched on in films and even in DA:O when Leliana talks to Alistair about sleeping with her targets. The body was designed to appear to the larger majority of male human desires, hence the larger breasts.

EDI not putting new clothing on highlights how she doesn't see herself as an attractive woman. She understands that the platform is appealing but finds no issue with that fact. It is, as she often states, a mobile platform to allow her to leave the confines of the Normandy's body and physically interact with the world. There is no doubt that the bot would have programs enabling it to seduce (hence that first walk through the smoke) and EDI would run through these programs to "test" them and learn.

Everyone making comments about Joker comes from the in-joke of pilots being obsessed and in love with their ships/planes. People (men) do this now and it's often a joke in relationships how there's three - the man, woman and whatever mechanical obsession the partner has. In the beginning of ME2 Joker is willing to die for the original Normandy because he believes he "can still save her".

As for the visor, it's shown in the Citadel DLC that it's some type of interface with the Normandy itself. Just like with her clothing, EDI doesn't hide this nor affect her skin colour/hair because she isn't trying to pass herself off as human. She is, in essence, trying to simply be EDI.

[David7204]

Well those thoughts are going to be a lot more than just 'projections,' won't they? They'll inevitably lead to very real changes in behavior, as they should. But so long as those behaviors aren't offensive or insulting, we can agree they're completely justified, right? And agree that it's completely justified for that woman to be treated very differently from an attractive woman, so long as such treatment isn't insulting or offensive?

Modifié par David7204, 03 mai 2013 - 11:35 .

[MerinTB]

TheProtheans wrote...
That is very anti male, when it is largely the females fault.

I wish that, as a male, I could disown you from my gender.

[KiwiQuiche]

David7204 wrote...

Well those thoughts are going to be a lot more than just 'projections,' won't they? They'll inevitably lead to very real changes in behavior, as they should. But so long as those behaviors aren't offensive or insulting, we can agree they're completely justified, right? And agree that it's completely justified for that woman to be treated very differently from an attractive woman, so long as such treatment isn't insulting or offensive?

...I'm out before I say something that gets me banned.

[David7204]

I see. Evidently not.

So here's how I see it. People are only allowed to think about attractiveness so long as those thoughts are completely separated from their behaviors and actions in all spheres. Courtesy and politeness are not sufficient. They must treat unattractive and attractive people the same way, which includes sex and romance. They're obligated to do so.

Is that about right?

Modifié par David7204, 03 mai 2013 - 12:04 .

[MerinTB]

David7204 wrote...
So here's how I see it. People are only allowed to think about attractiveness so long as those thoughts are completely separated from their behaviors and actions in all spheres. Courtesy and politeness are not sufficient. They must treat unattractive and attractive people the same way, which includes sex and romance. They're obligated to do so.

Outside of casting a specific gendered character for a video production, or picking the person you want to be your companion in life...

gender should be a non-factor.

Outside of actual beauty contests (which I am not condoning in the mentioning of them,) or lists of "most attractive models" (which I am also not condoning,) there is no reason to judge a person's sexiness or attractiveness in venues that have NOTHING to do with sexiness or attractiveness.

To do so to ordinary people going about their ordinary lives, whether it be working in the office, going to the grocery store, attending an event like a play or a movie, or even dressing up as their favorite characters for a geeky convention, is wrong.

Yes, you must treat all people equally in almost all circumstances.  You could come up with ridiculous outliers that make the previous statment seem ludicrous (what if they pull a gun on you?  what if they are insulting you endlessly?  what if they leave the restaurant without paying their tab?  should we treat those people equally?!?) but the truth is for civilized society, for the good of the community as a whole, judging a person's worth based on their appearance is detrimental.

A patriarchal society that has ingrained into the culture centuries of treating women as property, as dumb, as just there for breeding purposes, and as "evil temptresses of pure men who were just asking for it", is going through some serious growing pains as those who are in the position of power and privlege fight tooth and nail to not give up what they see as "normal", "acceptable" and, to some, even "right."

[AlexMBrennan]

Eva Core was designed to infiltrate society in whatever way required. This has been touched on in films and even in DA:O when Leliana talks to Alistair about sleeping with her targets

Yes, the first, best and only solution to infiltrate any enemy organisation is blantant in-your-face sex appeal. (i wonder how much of the CIA's annual budget is spent on boob jobs? )

EDI not putting new clothing on highlights how she doesn't see herself as an attractive woman. She understands that the platform is appealing but finds no issue with that fact

Thus demonstrating complete lack of understanding of society - you can't just do whatever you feel like.

There is no doubt that the bot would have programs enabling it to seduce (hence that first walk through the smoke)

So her programming made Adams use a fire extinguisher at the right time to produce a seductive effect?
Besides, EDI took control of the body so the original design is immaterial.

[spirosz]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

spirosz wrote...

*snip*

That is very anti male, when it is largely the females fault.

God forbid people want to have fun and dress up without being humilated by everyone else.


And how the hell did this thread turn down this road? Ah well, I suppose Bioware sparked it with their stupid comments on the issue.

I sparked a little thing here and there, haha.