371 réponses à ce sujet

[TheProtheans]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So to anyone who comes at me with the complaint that the endings don't make sense, I answer: Make them make sense, damn it! And when people refuse to see the merit of such an approach, then I get the impression they just don't want to drag themselves out of their emotional sinkhole, and then it's my turn to ask: why?

This is what I don't get. It's like they think if they wear the sackcloth and ashes long enough, Bioware will take pity and rewrite the endings or something.

I made them make sense, I'm still quite impressed with my quality of work.
However Bioware's ending where they state there is no hidden meaning like IT makes no sense.
Come at me bro.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

TheProtheans wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So to anyone who comes at me with the complaint that the endings don't make sense, I answer: Make them make sense, damn it! And when people refuse to see the merit of such an approach, then I get the impression they just don't want to drag themselves out of their emotional sinkhole, and then it's my turn to ask: why?

This is what I don't get. It's like they think if they wear the sackcloth and ashes long enough, Bioware will take pity and rewrite the endings or something.

I made them make sense, I'm still quite impressed with my quality of work.
However Bioware's ending where they state there is no hidden meaning like IT makes no sense.
Come at me bro.

Indeed. I completely re-wrote the ending. It works much better for me now.

But in the end, it will just never be satisfying, knowing that there's a disconnect, not only from my own AU ending, but from a simple change of having Shepard be defiant and dismissive towards the Catalyst as he shoots the tube, and with the current narrative and theme of the ending. 

The vision isn't the same as BW's, and you don't have the satisfaction as performing the ending. That said, I hate having to take reign and fix a narrative that a whole team seemingly screwed up (or in this case a professional writer). Really, there is no merit to doing so. It doesn't fix the ending or the game. It just makes you look at what could have been.

[Hadeedak]

I'm enough of a literature and psychology geek so that I can read a deep meaning into instructions on how to make toast. It may help.

[Ieldra]

I can't be the only one who thinks it's not quite appropriate to be dismissive and defiant to a super-powered AI a billion years old who knows quite a bit more about, well, almost everything than you do. It would be very much out of character for my Shepard to be that without very, very hard data.

Questions, however, are very appropriate. That we haven't been allowed some of the more pertinent questions that scream to be asked is one of the great flaws.

[AresKeith]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can't be the only one who thinks it's not quite appropriate to be dismissive and defiant to a super-powered AI a billion years old who knows quite a bit more about, well, almost everything than you do. It would be very much out of character for my Shepard to be that without very, very hard data.

Questions, however, are very appropriate. That we haven't been allowed some of the more pertinent questions that scream to be asked is one of the great flaws.

I find it appropriate

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can't be the only one who thinks it's not quite appropriate to be dismissive and defiant to a super-powered AI a billion years old who knows quite a bit more about, well, almost everything than you do. It would be very much out of character for my Shepard to be that without very, very hard data.

Questions, however, are very appropriate. That we haven't been allowed some of the more pertinent questions that scream to be asked is one of the great flaws.

Guess what he doesn't give you: hard, hard data.

He doesn't tell you how he comes to his conclusion or his method. He might not even be programmed in a way that makes him that intelligent. His entire outlook could be limited to interpreting the problem in one way. He doesn't understand organic life any more than any other synthetic. And how he doesn't seem to respect life enough to realize how his preservation violates organics and synthetics against their will and destroys their civilization doesn't warrant any respect from me. 

I agree with the questions part, though I don't know if we'd have a lot of the same idea's for questions in mind.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 mai 2013 - 08:11 .

[csmokey]

Thanks for explaining your reasons, I can respect your opinions, just wanted to see your side without the fogged glasses I had a year ago, and in a way I can see what you mean, I still dont like the ending, the star child coming out like he did reminds me of playing final fantasy 9 and beating Kuja(main villain of the entire game), and then having to fight Necron because he is the final boss, just felt out of place, plus the other reasons I have(dont want to list them would take to long) I hope this flaming war between the people that like the ending and the people that dislike the ending will end but I doubt it, take care everyone,

also my opinion but I feel the MP maps not in SP should be brought in, because eventually MP will be shut down and those maps deserve to be in the game, would fit perfect in either the citadel DLC for the arena or as maybe some new N7 missions

also I demand a copy of Mass Effect Risk, you guys on twitter know why, LOL

Take Care For Real Now

[Clayless]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can't be the only one who thinks it's not quite appropriate to be dismissive and defiant to a super-powered AI a billion years old who knows quite a bit more about, well, almost everything than you do. It would be very much out of character for my Shepard to be that without very, very hard data.

Questions, however, are very appropriate. That we haven't been allowed some of the more pertinent questions that scream to be asked is one of the great flaws.

Guess what he doesn't give you: hard, hard data.

He doesn't tell you how he comes to his conclusion or his method. He might not even be programmed in a way that makes him that intelligent. His entire outlook could be limited to interpreting the problem in one way. He doesn't understand organic life any more than any other synthetic. And how he doesn't seem to respect life enough to realize how his preservation violates organics and synthetics against their will and destroys their civilization doesn't warrant any respect from me. 

I agree with the questions part, though I don't know if we'd have a lot of the same idea's for questions in mind.

What data could he give you? You wouldn't be able to test anything he would present, so there would be no way for him to give you anything but information. You could dismiss it, perhaps assuming that Shepard's 30ish years have more experience than a hyper intelligent being billions of years old, but you couldn't then say it was because there was no hard data, as that would just show you don't know what you're talking about.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Robosexual wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can't be the only one who thinks it's not quite appropriate to be dismissive and defiant to a super-powered AI a billion years old who knows quite a bit more about, well, almost everything than you do. It would be very much out of character for my Shepard to be that without very, very hard data.

Questions, however, are very appropriate. That we haven't been allowed some of the more pertinent questions that scream to be asked is one of the great flaws.

Guess what he doesn't give you: hard, hard data.

He doesn't tell you how he comes to his conclusion or his method. He might not even be programmed in a way that makes him that intelligent. His entire outlook could be limited to interpreting the problem in one way. He doesn't understand organic life any more than any other synthetic. And how he doesn't seem to respect life enough to realize how his preservation violates organics and synthetics against their will and destroys their civilization doesn't warrant any respect from me. 

I agree with the questions part, though I don't know if we'd have a lot of the same idea's for questions in mind.

What data could he give you? You wouldn't be able to test anything he would present, so there would be no way for him to give you anything but information. You could dismiss it, perhaps assuming that Shepard's 30ish years have more experience than a hyper intelligent being billions of years old, but you couldn't then say it was because there was no hard data, as that would just show you don't know what you're talking about.

Then with out hard data, there is no way I'm going to listen to what he says. And from how he describes things, like synthesis, I'm not going to take a leap of faith with the guy who thinks the Reapers are necessary or with a solution in which I have to die to enact. As I said, his words about synthesis have warning lights in my head telling me that this is not the what I should do.

[Clayless]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Then with out hard data, there is no way I'm going to listen to what he says. And from how he describes things, like synthesis, I'm not going to take a leap of faith with the guy who thinks the Reapers are necessary or with a solution in which I have to die to enact. As I said, his words about synthesis have warning lights in my head telling me that this is not the what I should do.

Ah, a Refuser, nevermind then.

If the options were do something that might kill you or save you, or do nothing and die, I'd always chose to do something.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Robosexual wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Then with out hard data, there is no way I'm going to listen to what he says. And from how he describes things, like synthesis, I'm not going to take a leap of faith with the guy who thinks the Reapers are necessary or with a solution in which I have to die to enact. As I said, his words about synthesis have warning lights in my head telling me that this is not the what I should do.

Ah, a Refuser, nevermind then.

If the options were do something that might kill you or save you, or do nothing and die, I'd always chose to do something.

I destroy. I believe he's telling me about control and destroy because it's in his programming. He prefers synthesis due to his nature. I admit I lack his perspective, but then again, he lacks mine. And he does a terrible job describing it. That alone makes me think it's a total lie.

Among several reasons, I choose destroy because it's the easiest outcome to visualize, the most straightforward. Yeah, the consequences suck, but the damage is repairable, and with dead reapers everywhere, that's a lot of free technology that we can utilize. 

Synthesis might happen someday in the future. It'll be on our own terms, for better reasons for its implementation, and it will be voluntary.

Also, I think you're being disingenuous to refusers. I don't believe in it myself, but I can definitely see and appreciate where they're coming from.

[Clayless]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Ah, a Refuser, nevermind then.

If the options were do something that might kill you or save you, or do nothing and die, I'd always chose to do something.

I destroy. I believe he's telling me about control and destroy because it's in his programming. He prefers synthesis due to his nature. I admit I lack his perspective, but then again, he lacks mine. And he does a terrible job describing it. That alone makes me think it's a total lie.

Also, I think you're being disingenuous to refusers. I don't believe in it myself, but I can definitely see and appreciate where they're coming from.

That doesn't make any sense.

I didn't expect any to be fair, so I guess we'll just leave it here then.

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Also, I think you're being disingenuous to refusers. I don't believe in it myself, but I can definitely see and appreciate where they're coming from.

You mean the ones who say it's better to let everyone in the galaxy be killed than to pick Destroy?

To the extent that view isn't pure rhetoric or pure confusion, it's pure evil. It prioritizes Shepard's moral purity over the lives of all non-synthetics in the galaxy.

(There's a non-evil version of Refuse where Shepard doesn't believe that the Crucible will actually work)

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 mai 2013 - 09:06 .

[MegaSovereign]

I remember those "refuse is the only real choice without metagaming" threads. Those were fun.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Shepard dying is of course a pretty terrible feeling, but then you get those scenes that shows the results of your choices, and you're left with a lot of hope. Sure Shepard is not around anymore, but what he did will never be forgotten by the galaxy.

The endings leave me both really sad and really happy. Replaying the entire trilogy when you know Shepard dies in all but one of the endings, is an interesting experience. It's all about making the best of the time you have. Shepard has been through so much terrible stuff, so while it does suck to leave your LI and friends behind, I couldn't see it end any other way.

[Degs29]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Degs29 wrote...

Question:

If you choose destroy, do they still have the memorial scene on the Normandy in the extended cut?


I've never chosen destroy.  I'm not about to sacrifice the Geth.

Yes, but Shepard's name is not put up.

Is Shepard present?  It would seem strange if he wasn't.  Even if he's alive, I'll stick with Control.

Sheesh, I've ended up sacrificing half the Bioware protagonists I've played as....

He's not present (it would be physically impossible) but it's implied that he's alive. What's wrong with him living?

I kind of forget how the ending goes with the extended cut.  Do they do the memorial while they're still stranded on that planet?  If so, how do they even know Shepard's alive?  How would they know he's dead if Control or Synthesis was picked.

If the memorial scene takes place after they get off that planet, why isn't Shepard present?

Oh, and that's a fine reason for choosing destroy.  But I'm still going to stick with Control.

[Hadeedak]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Shepard dying is of course a pretty terrible feeling, but then you get those scenes that shows the results of your choices, and you're left with a lot of hope. Sure Shepard is not around anymore, but what he did will never be forgotten by the galaxy.

The endings leave me both really sad and really happy. Replaying the entire trilogy when you know Shepard dies in all but one of the endings, is an interesting experience. It's all about making the best of the time you have. Shepard has been through so much terrible stuff, so while it does suck to leave your LI and friends behind, I couldn't see it end any other way.

I think part of the reason I didn't spazhate about the endings as much as a lot of people is that I went into ME3 knowing that if there was a heroic sacrifice, my Shepard was going to take it. I knew she was riding for a fall from the beginning, and I think it made it easier. Part of that is that I'm actually rather fond of darker narratives, so I kind of played ME3 as the leadup to the death of Shepard. I dunno. It's all about how you approach it.

[KaiserShep]

I was taking "Sole Survivor" pretty seriously. Thresher maws and rogue billion year old AI's are not taking me down.

[AlanC9]

Degs29 wrote...

I kind of forget how the ending goes with the extended cut.  Do they do the memorial while they're still stranded on that planet?  If so, how do they even know Shepard's alive?  How would they know he's dead if Control or Synthesis was picked.

If the memorial scene takes place after they get off that planet, why isn't Shepard present?

Wouldn't you be better off looking it up on YouTube rather than asking us?

They don't actually know Shep's alive, actually. It's more like refusing to accept that he's dead.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KaiserShep wrote...

I was taking "Sole Survivor" pretty seriously. Thresher maws and rogue billion year old AI's are not taking me down.

Same here. 

I can respect where people see the heroic sacrifice (even though none of them feel heroic to me).

But I never played the series with the intent to have Shepard die. He was going to come back, defiant, and victorious. He was going to reunite with his LI, and ultimately, he was fighting for himself and his own beliefs. I think he'd fight a lot harder that way, knowing that he has his own stake in the future. The galaxy's too big, too impersonal. I'm not a fan of the heroic sacrifice stories anyway.

Which is why I'm very annoyed that you really can't have anything but a sacrifice ending.

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But I never played the series with the intent to have Shepard die.

People play with the intent to have their PCs die?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But I never played the series with the intent to have Shepard die.

People play with the intent to have their PCs die?

Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

[Hadeedak]

AlanC9 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But I never played the series with the intent to have Shepard die.

People play with the intent to have their PCs die?

I blame my extreme love of King Arthur as a wee child.

Everyone dies at the end. Spoilers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

AlanC9 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

But I never played the series with the intent to have Shepard die.

People play with the intent to have their PCs die?

Let me rephrase: I never played the game thinking that Shepard would have to make a heroic sacrifice. Some of the people say that it was evident from the beginning. I never saw it. Not once. Shepard is the determinator. The guy who's going to overcome and succeed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

iakus wrote...
Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

I will say that this seems to be the case for a few. Not a lot, but a few. The one's who say that Shepard's story can't possibly end any other way, and even scoff at the idea of him having a meaningful survival. There are people who do that.