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[chemiclord]

iakus wrote...

Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

I dunno if that's so much the case as it is they accept that the possibility, if not likelihood, that their player character will perish is there, and thus have come to terms with it long before it actually happens.

You can only roll the dice and come up 7 so many times before you eventually hit a snake eyes, after all.

[Hadeedak]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

I will say that this seems to be the case for a few. Not a lot, but a few. The one's who say that Shepard's story can't possibly end any other way, and even scoff at the idea of him having a meaningful survival. There are people who do that.

Eh. One of my Shepards lived, and I'm also happy with that. That's what I like about the endings, as I keep saying: there's choices. And they're hard. And depending on how you read it, they mean something and say something.

[Jonathan Seagull]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

I will say that this seems to be the case for a few. Not a lot, but a few. The one's who say that Shepard's story can't possibly end any other way, and even scoff at the idea of him having a meaningful survival. There are people who do that.

For my part, I'll say that I would have been perfectly happy -- thrilled even -- to see an ending where Shepard is unambiguously alive, reunites with his crew, and everyone is all celebratory smiles.  However, I'm also completely fine with the endings we are presented with.  For one, I feel that there is more of a range than it is sometimes given credit for.  At the least, there are two endings where Shepard dies (Destroy and Synthesis), an ending where his mortal body is destroyed but his mind is preserved in an AI (in my interpretation), and an ending where Shepard lives.  I would love to have seen more of what happens "post breath scene," but then again I would have loved to have seen more of what happens in all the endings.  And I don't think that's necessarily a failure of the narrative -- that's just me always being interested in experiencing more content.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 03 mai 2013 - 11:48 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Jonathan Seagull wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

I will say that this seems to be the case for a few. Not a lot, but a few. The one's who say that Shepard's story can't possibly end any other way, and even scoff at the idea of him having a meaningful survival. There are people who do that.

For my part, I'll say that I would have been perfectly happy -- thrilled even -- to see an ending where Shepard is unambiguously alive, reunites with his crew, and everyone is all celebratory smiles.  However, I'm also completely fine with the endings we are presented with.  For one, I feel that there is more of a range than it is sometimes given credit for.  At the least, there are two endings where Shepard dies (Destroy and Synthesis), an ending where his mortal body is destroyed but his mind is preserved in an AI (in my interpretation), and an ending where Shepard lives.  I would love to have seen more of what happens "post breath scene," but then again I would have loved to have seen more of what happens in all the endings.  And I don't think that's necessarily a failure of the narrative -- that's just me always being interested in experiencing more content.

Casey Hudson's original plan that Shepard was to die in all three endings. But in the New Game Plus, on the High EMS Destroy, there was to be a more optimistic ending than the "breath scene." There is an illustration of it in the Mass Effect 3 Art Book. It was Shepard getting a wrist grab by a rescue worker being pulled out of the rubble. That where it stopped and went to credits. It was still a cliff hanger, but it was more definite. Walters had a cow because he didn't want to write Shepard anymore, and that would open the door for a future installment of Mass Effect with Shepard.

The deal is: Shepard survives in the breath scene. Speculation: Shepard is beamed down to London by the conduit before the explosion. The wave covers him/her with rubble.

[The Varren Whisperer]

I liked the ending because it gave me the chance to finally put an end to the Reapers in true Mass Effect style; by making sacrifices (I'm a destroyer by the way).

Remember the Mass Effect 1 trailer where Shep, Garrus and Ash choose to abandon those civilians to attack a Geth outpost. Sure that never happened in the main game but the sentiment of 'how far will you go' is a key theme in the trilogy, one that is represented in the ending. In my case, I was willing to sacrifice EDI and the Geth (difficult as I love them) to ensure the Reapers never threatened the galaxy again.

A victory with great sacrifice. I liked the destroy ending. There I said.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Casey Hudson's original plan that Shepard was to die in all three endings. But in the New Game Plus, on the High EMS Destroy, there was to be a more optimistic ending than the "breath scene." There is an illustration of it in the Mass Effect 3 Art Book. It was Shepard getting a wrist grab by a rescue worker being pulled out of the rubble. That where it stopped and went to credits. It was still a cliff hanger, but it was more definite. Walters had a cow because he didn't want to write Shepard anymore, and that would open the door for a future installment of Mass Effect with Shepard.

The art book actually says all that???

[Alien Number Six]

All the various endings are good. The ending of the game when it was shipped was too abrupt. The game really needed EC to expand on the final idea. BioWare/EA really needs to realize meeting a deadline and leaving the fans with a unfinished product is unacceptable. This was the only problem I had with the ending of the game. BioWare could have avoided most of the outrage by simply finishing the end of the game.

[Mcfly616]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Casey Hudson's original plan that Shepard was to die in all three endings. But in the New Game Plus, on the High EMS Destroy, there was to be a more optimistic ending than the "breath scene." There is an illustration of it in the Mass Effect 3 Art Book. It was Shepard getting a wrist grab by a rescue worker being pulled out of the rubble. That where it stopped and went to credits. It was still a cliff hanger, but it was more definite. Walters had a cow because he didn't want to write Shepard anymore, and that would open the door for a future installment of Mass Effect with Shepard.

The art book actually says all that???

no....it actually says nothing of the sort. And the picture she's referring to isn't even in the art book. Its on the case of the artbook that comes with the Collectors Edition of ME3.

On top of that, it isn't even Shepard being pulled out of the rubble. It is actually Shepard who is helping pull someone else out.

[Auld Wulf]

I understand and appreciate symbolism in storytelling.

[Auld Wulf]

Mcfly616 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Casey Hudson's original plan that Shepard was to die in all three endings. But in the New Game Plus, on the High EMS Destroy, there was to be a more optimistic ending than the "breath scene." There is an illustration of it in the Mass Effect 3 Art Book. It was Shepard getting a wrist grab by a rescue worker being pulled out of the rubble. That where it stopped and went to credits. It was still a cliff hanger, but it was more definite. Walters had a cow because he didn't want to write Shepard anymore, and that would open the door for a future installment of Mass Effect with Shepard.

The art book actually says all that???

no....it actually says nothing of the sort. And the picture she's referring to isn't even in the art book. Its on the case of the artbook that comes with the Collectors Edition of ME3.

On top of that, it isn't even Shepard being pulled out of the rubble. It is actually Shepard who is helping pull someone else out.

Yeah, Shotgun Julia and Yestare7 are both anti-Geth, pro-Destroy trolls and they'll say anything. I wouldn't actually pay attention to what they have to say. There's a difference between idealistic headcanon and then just inventing entire pages of a book. The one is optimistic, the other is delusional. To be honest, I'm surprised they haven't been reprimanded for their shenanigans, since they love to stir the pot.

[chemiclord]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Yeah, Shotgun Julia and Yestare7 are both anti-Geth, pro-Destroy trolls and they'll say anything. I wouldn't actually pay attention to what they have to say. There's a difference between idealistic headcanon and then just inventing entire pages of a book. The one is optimistic, the other is delusional. To be honest, I'm surprised they haven't been reprimanded for their shenanigans, since they love to stir the pot.

Words cannot express how delicious the irony is right here.

Modifié par chemiclord, 04 mai 2013 - 03:23 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

A wild Auld Wulf appears.

First thing he does? Insults destroyers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I understand and appreciate symbolism in storytelling.

I do too. 

Especially when it actually works.

It didn't work for Mass Effect. 

[ThinkSharp]

chemiclord wrote...

iakus wrote...

Given how some of the pro-ending crowd talks, I can only assume this is the case.

I dunno if that's so much the case as it is they accept that the possibility, if not likelihood, that their player character will perish is there, and thus have come to terms with it long before it actually happens.

You can only roll the dice and come up 7 so many times before you eventually hit a snake eyes, after all.

I agree with chemic. I'd never say that I wanted Shepard to die or that the fact of his survival would have made the game suddenly horrible.

But I accept the idea of sacrifice because everyone's number comes up some time. Shepard isn't immune and shouldn't be. I don't think that means he should have to die no matter what, but I definitely think his survival shouldn't be taken for granted.

But I will admit that this was largely affected by my interpretation of events:

In my mind, Shep died when the collector ship first attacked the Normandy. Lazarus brought him back, but he died, no matter how much you want to spin it. So I've always viewed the year following Lazarus as borrowed time. From that moment on, Shep's life and entire purpose was the defeat of the Reapers. It's literally the only reason he's still alive; TIM says as much. (If there was no threat; Cerberus wouldn't have brought him back.)
Since that was my framework going in, it made sense to me that the end of the Reaper threat would also be the end of Shepard. He'd completed what he'd been brought back to do. That last choice is a relinquishing, a giving back what was already taken. So the sacrifice does not bother me personally. That Shepard can survive--and I firmly believe he does survive in high-EMS Destroy--becomes unexpected icing on the cake. Because it isn't what I expected or ever hoped for, it makes me so much happier to see it happen.

I realize it's a highly speculative and subjective framework, but it's where I was coming from. It's why I would tend to say the sacrifice "seems right."

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ThinkSharp wrote...
I agree with chemic. I'd never say that I wanted Shepard to die or that the fact of his survival would have made the game suddenly horrible.

But I accept the idea of sacrifice because everyone's number comes up some time. Shepard isn't immune and shouldn't be. I don't think that means he should have to die no matter what, but I definitely think his survival shouldn't be taken for granted.

But I will admit that this was largely affected by my interpretation of events:

In my mind, Shep died when the collector ship first attacked the Normandy. Lazarus brought him back, but he died, no matter how much you want to spin it. So I've always viewed the year following Lazarus as borrowed time. From that moment on, Shep's life and entire purpose was the defeat of the Reapers. It's literally the only reason he's still alive; TIM says as much. (If there was no threat; Cerberus wouldn't have brought him back.)
Since that was my framework going in, it made sense to me that the end of the Reaper threat would also be the end of Shepard. He'd completed what he'd been brought back to do. That last choice is a relinquishing, a giving back what was already taken. So the sacrifice does not bother me personally. That Shepard can survive--and I firmly believe he does survive in high-EMS Destroy--becomes unexpected icing on the cake. Because it isn't what I expected or ever hoped for, it makes me so much happier to see it happen.

I realize it's a highly speculative and subjective framework, but it's where I was coming from. It's why I would tend to say the sacrifice "seems right."

I can respect that, though I don't agree with it.

There's an excellent line in the apartment scene with Miranda, when you're giving her allance resources. She brings up the control chip issue, and it has Shepard comforting her when she's distressed over perceiving herseld as a hypocrite.

One of my absolute favorite lines from the series:

"Miranda, I lost two years of my life. You gave me back the rest of it. You could have changed me in a thousand different way, but you didn't. I don't know how, but you brought me back.

There's a lot of foreshadowing for a survival fate in the series too. He makes a lot of mention of it, especially when you do a Miranda romance. "I died once already. I don't plan on doing it again." Good stuff like that.

[spirosz]

Jack even has foreshadowing in the same respect, but you can still headcannon your Shepard passes, if you choose so.

[ThinkSharp]

That's the perspective I take from stepping back and looking at the bigger picture, not necessarily what I think Shep would say himself. Shep's definitely a survivor. And I'd strangle someone if Shep ever wanted to just give up the ghost. I would never say he believed his time was meant to be up.  But there are some obstacles so large that even the most determined person won't be able to surmount them through the sheer force of their will.That's why Thessia, for example, is an important turning point.

But anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind. I realize that we're just coming at it with different expectations. And I understand where you're coming from.

Modifié par ThinkSharp, 04 mai 2013 - 03:51 .

[Steelcan]

Auld Wolf, dont you have better things to do than insult people who disagree with you.

[spirosz]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I understand and appreciate symbolism in storytelling.

So does other 'individuals'. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

ThinkSharp wrote...

That's the perspective I take from stepping back and looking at the bigger picture, not necessarily what I think Shep would say himself. Shep's definitely a survivor. And I'd strangle someone if Shep ever wanted to just give up the ghost. I would never say he believed his time was meant to be up.  But there are some obstacles so large that even the most determined person won't be able to surmount them through the sheer force of their will.That's why Thessia, for example, is an important turning point.

But anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind. I realize that we're just coming at it with different expectations. And I understand where you're coming from.

Well, my Shepard's will does give out on him at the last minute. He loses his ability to believe, so he has to make his a new one: He puts his faith in Miranda, and the will to be with her and have a life with her is what drives him up and past the end.

[MegaSovereign]

The symbolism isn't very smart especially in some parts of the ending. Case in point the "Adam and Eve" vibe of the Normandy crash scene. Symbolism arguably works best when it's subtle and or it flows naturally with the narrative. There's some that works for me, like the role of the gun in the chamber scene and how Destroy is the only ending where Shepard never lets go of it.

[AresKeith]

I understood what Bioware tried to do with the ending and I actually like the concept of Synthesis, but I don't like the way Bioware did it

[spirosz]

Even if I don't believe the Destroy ending is realistic in the relation towards Shepard being able to survive, even though he's done the impossible before - the way it's executed, it's like, what. For the sake of not falling into that cycle of negativity and "what if", I prefer to dive into a little fantasy and Shepard being able to take Jack dancing

@Ares

I do like the theme of Synthesis as well, but not the way it was executed from Bioware.  Some can look past that and that's fine, but it doesn't work for me, as the same can be said for me looking past the execution of the Destroy ending and Shepard's survival.  

Modifié par spirosz, 04 mai 2013 - 04:16 .

[Alien Number Six]

Auld Wulf you and I agree on some things and disagree on others but I have never lowered myself by calling you names. Dispite disagreeing on some points your arguements have always been classy. You should ditch the name calling and keep your arguements intellegent and classy. Calling Shotgun Julia and Yestare 7 trolls is beneath you.

[Obadiah]

I think of Mass Effect as principally the story of how the Reaper cycles finally came to an end.

The story of this upstart race the up-ends the galactic society that has existed for millenia after only 20 years, and then turns out to be key to uniting the galaxy, stopping the Reapers, and then deciding on the direction of future civilization is interesting.

Shepard either:
- Accepts the responsibility of commiting a horrible act to stop the Reapers once and for all, so that the rest of the galaxy does not have to bear the guilt
- Sacrifices himself to create a new guardian/ruler to guide the galaxy forward
- Remakes life as we know it to empower individuals to live the lives they have always wanted
- Upholds his principles and sacrifices this cycle so that the next can stop the Reapers without compromise

It is a violent, brutal, poetically beautiful epic.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 mai 2013 - 04:43 .