889 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Arg

Chemical weapons do not discrimate. One of the nukes dropped on Japan landed on a hospital. Thats the harsh reality of war.

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Arg

Chemical weapons do not discrimate. One of the nukes dropped on Japan landed on a hospital. Thats the harsh reality of war.

We aren't talking about just millions of Quarian casualties. We are talking about almost all of them.

[IanPolaris]

remydat wrote...

Arg

Chemical weapons do not discrimate. One of the nukes dropped on Japan landed on a hospital. Thats the harsh reality of war.

 
Indeed, and the use of a WMD is not considered genocide in of itself.  If the Geth decided to use WMDs (Chemical weapons, nuclear, etc perhaps including asteroid drops), they would be doing so (apparently from the data we have anyway) to win their war.  This may or may not be a war crime, but it's not ipso facto genocide even if the attack does destroy 99% of the population of an area (or planet or even galactic arm).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

Arg

Chemical weapons do not discrimate. One of the nukes dropped on Japan landed on a hospital. Thats the harsh reality of war.

We aren't talking about just millions of Quarian casualties. We are talking about almost all of them.

The only difference is one of scale.  To make it genocide, you'd have to show that the Geth attacked/used the weapons with the explicit (deliberate) and systematic intent of wiping out the Quarians and not just winning a war.  I don't think you can show that.

-Polaris

[remydat]

And humans and Quarians had had thousands of years to learn restraint. The Geth were born and saw the Quarians showing no restraint. Where were they suppose to learn such restraint when their creators didn't bother to show them.

[Argolas]

The Geth attacked all Quarians except those who had already left Rannoch. They attacked Quarians for no other reason that they are Quarians. It's genocide.

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

And humans and Quarians had had thousands of years to learn restraint. The Geth were born and saw the Quarians showing no restraint. Where were they suppose to learn such restraint when their creators didn't bother to show them.

Not in front of AIs. The Quarians didn't know that they were doing something terrible when they started killing Geth.

Be fair here. Both the Quarians and the Geth faced a situation they never dealt with before. Either both are innocent for overreacting or none.

[Phatose]

Again, it's real hard to believe they didn't know they were doing something terrible by killing the Geth when they whole reason they started killing the Geth was because they were alive.

[Argolas]

Phatose wrote...

Again, it's real hard to believe they didn't know they were doing something terrible by killing the Geth when they whole reason they started killing the Geth was because they were alive.

Did you listen to Tali in ME1? To the Quarians, the Geth were a mistake that needed to be fixed before it got out of hand. Recognizing that they evolved to true AIs does not mean acknowledging them as equal forms of life.

Modifié par Argolas, 03 mai 2013 - 11:51 .

[Phatose]

BULL.

Just flat out bull. If it's an AI, an actual AI, then it's alive. That's the whole distinction between AI and VI.

[Argolas]

You are just being unfair. No side thought "Yeah we realize that this is genocide but that's fine.".

You can argue against the Geth quite the same way. The Geth had access to Quarian records and culture, that's how they found out what a "soul" is as well. The Geth will have knowledge about war crimes.

IF you are fair you realize that the morning war was a misunderstanding in which both sides were confronted with a situation they neither wanted nor expected, and both sides made themselves guilty. Genocide should not be justified, not the Quarians', but neither the Geth's.

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 12:06 .

[IanPolaris]

Argolas wrote...

The Geth attacked all Quarians except those who had already left Rannoch. They attacked Quarians for no other reason that they are Quarians. It's genocide.

No it's not.  They attacked a people that had shown every intent of wiping them out.  If they reason for the attack was just because they were Quarians, there would be no more quarians.

-Polaris

[Argolas]

IanPolaris wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Geth attacked all Quarians except those who had already left Rannoch. They attacked Quarians for no other reason that they are Quarians. It's genocide.

No it's not.  They attacked a people that had shown every intent of wiping them out.  If they reason for the attack was just because they were Quarians, there would be no more quarians.

-Polaris

Think again. There were Quarians who couldn't hurt a Geth even if they wanted to, like children. NONE were spared. They either were lucky enough to get on a spaceship or they were annihilated. The only Quarians who didn't get killed were those who already were on their ships, running for the relay. We explicitely see that in the records. The Geth even went after the Quarian ships until they set course to the relay. Only after that they abandoned pursuit- and only because they feared the consequences.

Your reasoning is also flawed. So if my government decided to, say, kill all Asians in our country but stop once they left it, it's not genocide because we wouldn't pursue them?

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 01:10 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

IanPolaris wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Geth attacked all Quarians except those who had already left Rannoch. They attacked Quarians for no other reason that they are Quarians. It's genocide.

No it's not.  They attacked a people that had shown every intent of wiping them out.  If they reason for the attack was just because they were Quarians, there would be no more quarians.

-Polaris

There almost were no more Quarians. Initially it was self-defense, but the consensus became - "destroy all Quarians on the worlds." Otherwise why were over 99% of the Quarian people killed? They perceived all Quarians a threat. ALL of them. Children, old people, it didn't matter. All were killed.

Out of X billion, and we don't even know what X was (I'm speculating around 9 billion at the height of their civilization including their colonies) only 17 million are remain. My speculation is based on Asari, Turian, Earth, and Batarian populations, pre-invasion. My speculation is as good as anyone's.

You seem determined to avoid the word genocide. So lets do it. Let's just call it a mass atrocity. No matter what you call it, it was complete overkill. They never hit the stop button. And to expect a people to forgive another people for nearly wiping them out 300 years earlier is asking a bit much. We have places on Earth where grudges go back thousands of years.

To tell the Geth to leave Rannoch? It was their home, too. I don't think they would have obeyed that order, either.

It's a sins of the father situation now. Gerrel wanted war. Raan wanted
war. Koris wanted peace. Xen is a scientist whose job is to protect the
fleet -- pro-war but not pro-destruction of the geth. Tali wanted peace.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Sorry, but there is NO WAY that the complete extinction of every Quarian still on Rannoch (and every other colony) can be chalked up to collateral damage. In order for a death rate on that scale to be reached, the Geth must have used weapons that deliberately targeted Quarians, or failing that, used weapons which would make Rannoch uninhabitable for them, achieving the same result. Plus, they would have likely killed any Quarian they encountered for this to happen.

And when Legion mentions 'toxins' being cleared up, he can only be referring to weapons used by the Geth. Nuclear weapons produce radiation, not toxins, and its said the Quarians didn't even use that much force against the Geth, for fear of ruining their planet's ecosystem.

Also tell me, how if every single Quarian supposed to know the Geth are a legitimate form of life? The majority probably assumed they were just faulty equipment. What about Quarians who didn't even interact with Geth on a daily basis?

Thank you. Legion did say this. Legion did mention that the Quarians did not use that kind of force against them for fear of ruining their planet's ecosystem. The Geth used chemical weapons against the Quarians. Legion mentions they were cleaning up the planet "to atone."

If Legion does not make it back to the consensus, Geth VI does not mention anything about atoning or cleaning up the environment.

[Argolas]

Thanks Finn and jUliA. As I said before, speaking against a group that suffered discrimination before can be a pain. Once people think of them as victims, pointing out that they are no saints either can be almost impossible.

[knightnblu]

What is dangerous about AI? The fact that it has no or unknown morality. An AI without any sense of right or wrong is far more dangerous than any sociopath ever thought about being. All that is necessary for an AI to end your life under these circumstances is for an equation to come up with a kill value relative to a query, and you die. You cannot plead for mercy, you cannot beg, you can only fight the machine and win or lay down and die. It will not pity you, it will not re-evaluate it's decision, it doesn't care if you created it or helped it. It will kill you and won't waste any more processing power, other than that required to terminate. You have been dev nulled and so you must end. AI that can alter it's programming parameters as the Geth could, are even more dangerous without knowledge of the machine's morality, if indeed it even has any.

That is what scared the hell out of the Quarians. They didn't bother to explore the AI morality because that would take time and time is the one thing that the Quarians didn't have because they believed (falsely) that the AI had not fully initialized. It had and it defended itself. Fortunately for the Quarian people the AI did have a morality and they didn't want to fight their creators. So when the Quarians left the system the Geth called off the dogs, so to speak.

The Geth were left to wonder why the Quarians had attacked them. They didn't understand their creators fears that motivated their actions. However, it is obvious that other races were also slaughtered by the Geth. What is unknown is if they took part in the combat against them or if the Geth just summarily executed them out of precaution. At least, that is my understanding of the situation.

[Whybother]

Someone earlier brought this up...

So, where ARE the "good" Quarians who disagreed with the war? Did the "bad" Quarians really kill them all? Did the Geth just allow it, because clearly they were powerful enough to fight Quarians to the point of reducing them from billions to a few million.

Why haven't the Geth just left Rannoch seeing as robots who mostly live in servers do not need to be located on a planet? In fact for all the Geth talk about "we'd love the Creators to come back and we could live in peace and harmony", they were building a Dyson Sphere around the star. Why? Why not just build it around the non-Rannoch system - like in a system that has no life-bearing planets, and let the Quarians have their homeworld back (since they care and arguably need it due to their immune systems a lot more than the Geth do)?

Short version: the Geth history lesson was bogus and I don't believe it. Legion wanted sympathy from Shepard, he all but admits this, and lied numerous times to do so. Who is to say he isn't lying again?

[SeptimusMagistos]

Whybother wrote...

Short version: the Geth history lesson was bogus and I don't believe it. Legion wanted sympathy from Shepard, he all but admits this, and lied numerous times to do so. Who is to say he isn't lying again?

His story matches the one told by the quarians exactly.

[Argolas]

Whybother, I don't think Legion lied in the scenes presented in the server, I do believe that everything we saw there actually happened. It just took them out of context and presented them in a way that it would favor the Geth. That can be just as effective.

[Khelish]

Lie of omission is the term.

[Argolas]

Khelish wrote...

Lie of omission is the term.

Thanks, that's right. If Legion had shown how the Geth "cleansed" Rannoch and even other Quarian colonies of everything that moved, the big picture would look kinda different...

The only Geth picking up a weapon that we see is presented as a hero, sacrificing itself to help other units escape. The reality, especially later in the Morning War, was clearly different.

[remydat]

The Geth used chemical weapons and the Quarians died. It is pretty easy for everyone to die except the Geth when they unleashed it and they have no reason not to unleash it when the Quarians made it clear it was us or them.

And the reason the Quarians did not use such weapons is because THEY WOULDN'T WORK ON SYNTHETICS. Chemical weapons wont kill them and you can nuke the planet when you are actually on the planet too. A nuke isn't going to just kill the Geth.  Thats one big lie of ommission there Tali.  Sure they would ruin the planet but more importantly Tali THEY WOULDNT WORK ON SYNTHETICS. Kind of like how they neglected to tell anyone about thw little war they were about to start.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 03:02 .

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...

The Geth used chemical weapons and the Quarians died. It is pretty easy for everyone to die except the Geth when they unleashed it and they have no reason not to unleash it when the Quarians made it clear it was us or them.

So they used chemical weapons on the Quarians who were on the Geth's side as well.  I bet those Quarians thought "wow, was I a sucker!" as they suffocated under their own blood.