889 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

No evidence thosr Quarians still existed.

[Whybother]

Khelish wrote...

Lie of omission is the term.

That's Legion's modus operandi.

"Yeah, I kinda forgot to tell you that the reason we were going to the servers was to also try to recruit some Geth units."

"Yeah, I kinda forgot to tell you I still had reaper code in me."

"Yeah, I kinda forgot that I was going to kill you if you didn't side with the Geth."

Blah blah blah.

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...

No evidence thosr Quarians still existed.

Legion's history lesson shows Quarians sticking up for the Geth.  If you say those Quarians didn't exist, then Legion must have lied. QED.

[IanPolaris]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Geth attacked all Quarians except those who had already left Rannoch. They attacked Quarians for no other reason that they are Quarians. It's genocide.

No it's not.  They attacked a people that had shown every intent of wiping them out.  If they reason for the attack was just because they were Quarians, there would be no more quarians.

-Polaris

There almost were no more Quarians. Initially it was self-defense, but the consensus became - "destroy all Quarians on the worlds." Otherwise why were over 99% of the Quarian people killed? They perceived all Quarians a threat. ALL of them. Children, old people, it didn't matter. All were killed.

Out of X billion, and we don't even know what X was (I'm speculating around 9 billion at the height of their civilization including their colonies) only 17 million are remain. My speculation is based on Asari, Turian, Earth, and Batarian populations, pre-invasion. My speculation is as good as anyone's.

You seem determined to avoid the word genocide. So lets do it. Let's just call it a mass atrocity. No matter what you call it, it was complete overkill. They never hit the stop button. And to expect a people to forgive another people for nearly wiping them out 300 years earlier is asking a bit much. We have places on Earth where grudges go back thousands of years.

To tell the Geth to leave Rannoch? It was their home, too. I don't think they would have obeyed that order, either.

It's a sins of the father situation now. Gerrel wanted war. Raan wanted
war. Koris wanted peace. Xen is a scientist whose job is to protect the
fleet -- pro-war but not pro-destruction of the geth. Tali wanted peace.

I refuse to use the word genocide because it doersn't fit.  Simple as that.  The Geth learned that the Quarians could not be trusted and that they and the Quarians could not coexist.  They learned that because the Quarian kept attacking them.  If this is genocide, then attacking and wiping out the Darkspawn in Dragon Age Origins is also geneocide.

As for ecological weaponry, it is very easy to imagine a scenario (esp some types of pandemics) that would preclude the existance of any quarians living at all on infected worlds past a single generation (or less) without a deliberate attempt to round up and kill all Quarians just becaus they were quarians.  In fact such a thing seems likely.

I am not saying that the Geth are saints.  Frankly they are brutally utilaritarian, but that doesn't make them genocidal.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Whybother wrote...

remydat wrote...

No evidence thosr Quarians still existed.

Legion's history lesson shows Quarians sticking up for the Geth.  If you say those Quarians didn't exist, then Legion must have lied. QED.

Unless the Quarians eliminated those rebel Quarians along with the Geth they were trying to protect.

-Polaris

[Auld Wulf]

Whybother wrote...

So, where ARE the "good" Quarians who disagreed with the war?

Zaal'Koris represents the civilian interest which disagrees with the war, you also hear this civilian sentiment on the flotilla in Mass Effect 2 in general. The Quarian military and civilian factions have very different interests. But the flotilla protects and essentially holds the civilians hostage -- just as we'd see in a dystopian future of earth where people are dealing with evil corporations or whatnot, the Quarians are just too scared to speak up too much. Zaal'Koris is either brave or stupid to go against the military.

It's a sad truth and I actually feel bad for the Quarian civilians. They're there, they're just too scared to actually do anything against Han'Gerrel, since Han'Gerrel is the kind of man who'd kill his own if they disagreed with him. (Shooting at Shepard on the Geth Dreadnaught, strapping guns to liveships, et al.)

Whybother wrote...

Did the "bad" Quarians really kill them all?

Not kill, no. They're just afraid. If you were living under a despotic dictatorship parading as a democracy, wouldn't you be too scared to speak up? Be honest -- if you had the choice to not have a gun strapped to your liveship, wouldn't you go with the choice not to? They're just too scared to disagree, and the only voice they have is Zaal'Koris, and to a degree, even he is too scared to press Han'Gerrel too much, which is why the Admirals can so easily pressure him in ME3.

Not many people seem to actually understand the political truths of the Quarians. It's a cleverly told story and you have to dig a little below the surface and actually look at the empirical evidence to understand what's truly going on, there. And dictatorships pretending to be democracies aren't exactly a new thing, we've had plenty of those in human history. You just have to realise that that's what's going on.

Whybother wrote...

Did the Geth just allow it, because clearly they were powerful enough to fight Quarians to the point of reducing them from billions to a few million.

Assuming the Geth actually did that. All we have to go on are the records of military despots, and we don't actually know that those are reliable. Until we've had a chance to examine what actually happened on Rannoch (as I pointed out earlier), we don't know. The Geth could have done this, but the Quarian military could also have been bombing rebellious civilian centres with biological weapons in order to deal with the "civilian problem." It could also be a little of column A, and a little of column B.

In the Geth consensus we see stuff that clearly disputes Quarian records, as it shows civilians fighting alongside the Geth. So the real question is: What happened on Rannoch? The sad part is that now we'll never actually know (outside of headcanon and fanfiction.)

Whybother wrote...

Why haven't the Geth just left Rannoch seeing as robots who mostly live in servers do not need to be located on a planet?

When the Geth "woke up" they weren't immediately emotionally mature and well adjusted adults, they were babies. For a long, long time they simply obeyed their "instincts," their low-level programming. Their programming said "maintain this," and "fix that." So that's exactly what they did. Legion tells exactly this in ME2, that the Geth mean no harm, that they're simply following Quarian programming because they didn't realise that was wrong, and they didn't know what else to do. To Legion, the notion of "not following programming" was an alien one. In the consensus we even see a Geth who wants nothing more than to do his pre-programmed duties.

It took the Geth a while to even realise that Legion was a necessary element, because they'd operated on machine instinct for so long. They just continued to maintain Rannoch as if the Quarians weren't even there -- and since no Creators had gone back to Rannoch to say "Hey, you can stop now!" they've just kept doing exactly that. Legion, however, took word back to the Consensus after ME2 that the Quarians don't want them there, the Quarians don't actually want the Geth on their world, so this presented them with new orders. As such, they built an unarmed megastrucutre so that they could evacuate away from Rannoch to go and live away from the Quarians in peace.

Of course, Han'Gerrel ordered the megastructure carpet bombed without even investigating the matter, thus killing the vast majority of orthodox (good guy) Geth programs, but what can you do? That's Han'Gerrel -- a dictator and a madman. So yes, my answer is that as soon as the Geth realised that their programming was wrong, and that they wren't supposed to obey it, they took the iniative to make peace with their Creators by creating the megastructure. They were essentially saying "Look, we can make things too! And it has no weapons! We won't be on Rannoch any more!"

Shame how that all worked out, really.

Whybother wrote...

In fact for all the Geth talk about "we'd love the Creators to come back and we could live in peace and harmony", they were building a Dyson Sphere around the star. Why?

Explained above. The Geth were originally just children who believed that one day their Creators would come back and forgive them, so that the Geth could continue serving them and that everything would be perfect. This is a child's belief, that their parents will return and love them. That's all the Geth ever wanted, and you can hear this echoed in just about everything Legion says in ME2. The only people they've ever loved outside of the Quarians was Shepard, as Shepard was the only organic they've really known other than the Creators.

Out of love for their Creators, as children, they just wanted to do good things and be praised. Hence the instinctive following of their programs. The Geth weren't really "mature" in any way before Legion. Sapient? Yes. Mature? No. It's the Reaper code essentially that allows all of the Geth to finally "grow up." It gives them a chance to act outside of their instinctive urges and to follow their own goals and desires. But still many of the Geth wish to help the Quarians, as we see in ME3 if we make peace -- as the Prime wants the Quarians to return and suggests where, and the Geth merge with Quarian hardware to help them to readjust to their armour. They're grown up now, but they still love their parents.

(Geez, so much in ME is daddy/parent issues. Miranda, Jack, the Geth, the Catalyst, and I'm certain there are others.)

Whybother wrote...

Why not just build it around the non-Rannoch system

The resources are present within the system, it's simpler to build it first then move it later. It's really as simple as that.

Whybother wrote...

[...] and let the Quarians have their homeworld back [...]

That was exactly the point of the megastructure in the first place. If it still displeased the Creators, they could then move it.

Whybother wrote...

(since they care and arguably need it due to their immune systems a lot more than the Geth do)?

Again, the Geth were children and they didn't really know. They had no stimulus to actually help them "grow up" before Legion. They were just idealistic children waiting around at home for their parents, doing nice things and hoping that one day they would return.

Whybother wrote...

Short version: the Geth history lesson was bogus and I don't believe it.

That's your opinion, but it makes plenty of sense to me if you you don't have a Geth hate fetish thing. I can but shrug. I don't hate the Quarians, either, nor do I hate you for your opinion. I just see your opinion as more blinkered than mine. I dislike Han'Gerrel -- the individual. You dislike the Geth -- the race. That's kind of like having one person who hates Hitler, and then having another who hates every living creature in Germany.

I don't blame you, but I do ask you to evaluate your thinking. I'm not expecting you to because introspection and intellectual self-evaluation isn't common around the BSN, so it's like wishing for the moon. But the request is there, if you think you're up for it.

Whybother wrote...

Legion wanted sympathy from Shepard, he all but admits this, and lied numerous times to do so. Who is to say he isn't lying again?

Legion has never lied. He's omitted things but he actually doesn't understand the concept of lying.

Edit: Cleaned up quotes, they had linedowns I didn't notice.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 04 mai 2013 - 03:11 .

[IanPolaris]

Whybother wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth used chemical weapons and the Quarians died. It is pretty easy for everyone to die except the Geth when they unleashed it and they have no reason not to unleash it when the Quarians made it clear it was us or them.

So they used chemical weapons on the Quarians who were on the Geth's side as well.  I bet those Quarians thought "wow, was I a sucker!" as they suffocated under their own blood.

Unless the Quarians that sided with the Geth were already killed or realized that they were doomed to die anyway.  Being willing to sacrice one's life is not entirely unknown (and there have been cases where human troops would order air-strikes on their own positions knowing it would almost certainly kill them, but also knowing it was the best way to destroy the enemy).

-Polaris

[Argolas]

Tali never made it a secret that the Quarians did anything in their power to wipe out the geth. And IanPolaris, you keep ignoring the true innocents. Quarians were not only Geth supporters and Geth killers. A large part of the Quarians would neither want to kill the Geth nor sacrifice their life for them, just get by. And then there's the children.

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 03:16 .

[Auld Wulf]

Argolas wrote...

Tali never made it a secret that the Quarians did anything in their power to wipe out the geth.

Yes, but the secret that only the Admiralty board may know (if even them, if it hasn't been lost to time) is that the Quarians might have been fighting their own in a civil war as well. It would be easy to use the Geth as a fall guy for a civil war they'd been wanting for a long time anyway, wouldn't it?

But I'll say this AGAIN, I'm not pushing my view as fact. I'm just saying that we can't factually state that we know anything about Rannoch, because we haven't had a chance to evaluate the on-planet evidence for ourselves, we haven't actually done any sniffing about Rannoch. Records can be falsified, and the records of the Consensus are clearly at odds with the Quarian records. This could mean that one is dishonest, or that both are dishonest. But we'll never know the real truth of what happened on Rannoch.

And that's actually kind of clever.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Tali never made it a secret that the Quarians did anything in their power to wipe out the geth.

Yes, but the secret that only the Admiralty board may know (if even them, if it hasn't been lost to time) is that the Quarians might have been fighting their own in a civil war as well. It would be easy to use the Geth as a fall guy for a civil war they'd been wanting for a long time anyway, wouldn't it?

But I'll say this AGAIN, I'm not pushing my view as fact. I'm just saying that we can't factually state that we know anything about Rannoch, because we haven't had a chance to evaluate the on-planet evidence for ourselves, we haven't actually done any sniffing about Rannoch. Records can be falsified, and the records of the Consensus are clearly at odds with the Quarian records. This could mean that one is dishonest, or that both are dishonest. But we'll never know the real truth of what happened on Rannoch.

And that's actually kind of clever.

Active Geth supporters were killed by Quarian troops. I accept that. I saw the record and I believe it (I don't think there are fabrications in there). But you can't honestly think that the Quarians are responsible for dead children or old people?

[chemiclord]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Legion has never lied. He's omitted things but he actually doesn't understand the concept of lying.

Have to disagree here.  I think it is quite well versed in lying.  It even appears rather remorseful when it feels compelled to come clean.  It clearly doesn't LIKE leaving those details out, but is afraid of how Shepard will react to the truth.

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

[Argolas]

chemiclord wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Legion has never lied. He's omitted things but he actually doesn't understand the concept of lying.

Have to disagree here.  I think it is quite well versed in lying.  It even appears rather remorseful when it feels compelled to come clean.  It clearly doesn't LIKE leaving those details out, but is afraid of how Shepard will react to the truth.

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

I'll quote again the dialogue I got. I believe these lines are rather uncommon since most people probably tend to go fully pro-geth or fully anti-geth with their Shepards. Mine supported the peace effort all the way (basically always Paragon) but was shocked when Legion revealed that he uses reaper codes and didn't say anything.



Legion: This unit still carries remnants of the Old Machine upgrade code. we can break any Geth security. You are concerned.

Shepard: Hell yes I'm concerned! You are still hooked up to the Reapers?

Legion: No. We only carry code upgrades that make us more effective -- more intelligent.

Shepard: But you lied! I understood when you sprang those Geth Primes on me, but you just keep lying. What do I have to do to gain your trust?

Legion: We did not intend to cause offense.

Shepard: Damn it Legion, how did we get here? The Geth are better than this.

Legion: No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not.


The Geth aren't better than this...

[Whybother]

IanPolaris wrote...

Whybother wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth used chemical weapons and the Quarians died. It is pretty easy for everyone to die except the Geth when they unleashed it and they have no reason not to unleash it when the Quarians made it clear it was us or them.

So they used chemical weapons on the Quarians who were on the Geth's side as well.  I bet those Quarians thought "wow, was I a sucker!" as they suffocated under their own blood.

Unless the Quarians that sided with the Geth were already killed or realized that they were doomed to die anyway.  Being willing to sacrice one's life is not entirely unknown (and there have been cases where human troops would order air-strikes on their own positions knowing it would almost certainly kill them, but also knowing it was the best way to destroy the enemy).

-Polaris

Wait, the (anti-Geth) Quarians were able to kill all the (pro-Geth) Quarians but couldn't handle the Geth?  Or the Geth who were able to wipe down the Quarian population from billions to a few million couldn't save a few Quarians who helped them out?

[DeinonSlayer]

chemiclord wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Legion has never lied. He's omitted things but he actually doesn't understand the concept of lying.

Have to disagree here.  I think it is quite well versed in lying.  It even appears rather remorseful when it feels compelled to come clean.  It clearly doesn't LIKE leaving those details out, but is afraid of how Shepard will react to the truth.

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

He does describe how the Geth trolled those Salarians over the extranet in ME2. Then there was this blurb on Heretic Station:

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

Said in response to - and in agreement with - the "They're just machines" renegade dialogue option at the outset of the mission. Also this in ME3 - what looks on its surface like a cutesy calibration joke really isn't:

Legion: "Telemetry data indicates the Calibrations of Normandy's weapons systems can be improved by .32%"
Garrus: "That's all...? You can't squeeze in .34% out of it...?"
Legion: "Negative. That threshold is not possible."
Garrus: "You sure? Take a look now."
Legion: "Scanning. Normandy's weapon systems have been improved by a margin of .43%. How did you accomplish this?"
Garrus: "A little secret we organics like to keep. Always hold some back for emergencies."
Legion: "Is our current situation an emergency?"
Garrus: "A Geth, meddling with our computers; telling me how to do my job? No. I can't imagine that would qualify."

[DeinonSlayer]

Whybother wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Whybother wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth used chemical weapons and the Quarians died. It is pretty easy for everyone to die except the Geth when they unleashed it and they have no reason not to unleash it when the Quarians made it clear it was us or them.

So they used chemical weapons on the Quarians who were on the Geth's side as well.  I bet those Quarians thought "wow, was I a sucker!" as they suffocated under their own blood.

Unless the Quarians that sided with the Geth were already killed or realized that they were doomed to die anyway.  Being willing to sacrice one's life is not entirely unknown (and there have been cases where human troops would order air-strikes on their own positions knowing it would almost certainly kill them, but also knowing it was the best way to destroy the enemy).

-Polaris

Wait, the (anti-Geth) Quarians were able to kill all the (pro-Geth) Quarians but couldn't handle the Geth?  Or the Geth who were able to wipe down the Quarian population from billions to a few million couldn't save a few Quarians who helped them out?

There are people who really don't want to believe that the Geth killed innocents. However, even Legion never denies that it happened, and we're never told that the sympathizers were killed off by the anti-Geth Quarians. Legion says the sympathizers were "outnumbered" as time went on, but doesn't say they were all killed off by the Quarian authorities. The Geth VI (more representative of the Morning War-era Geth mindset) doesn't acknowledge the sympathizers at all.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 04 mai 2013 - 03:41 .

[Argolas]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
He does describe how the Geth trolled those Salarians over the extranet in ME2. Then there was this blurb on Heretic Station:

Oh thanks for reminding me, that story was amazing

[Whybother]

I'll quote a few points here.

Auld Wulf wrote...

Whybother wrote...

Why not just build it [the Dyson Sphere] around the non-Rannoch system

The resources are present within the system, it's simpler to build it first then move it later. It's really as simple as that.

Whybother wrote...

[...] and let the Quarians have their homeworld back [...]

That was exactly the point of the megastructure in the first place. If it still displeased the Creators, they could then move it.

First - those resources are easily available in other systems. All the ME gaves have mentioned systems that had a mining planet or two, even if nothing else was actually habitable. Second, Dyson Spheres aren't known for their portability. I'm assuming the game was using the version of the Sphere most used in fiction, which is a shell that literally surrounds a star.

Whybother wrote...

(since they care and arguably need it due to their immune systems a lot more than the Geth do)?

Again, the Geth were children and they didn't really know. They had no stimulus to actually help them "grow up" before Legion. They were just idealistic children waiting around at home for their parents, doing nice things and hoping that one day they would return.

Oh, come on.  The Geth are not little children.  That is belittling them.  They are capable of building advanced structures such as the Dreadnought and the Dyson Sphere, having a consensus mechanism to make decisions (such as whether to ally with the Reapers or not), and so on.  They are not stupid.

Whybother wrote...

Short version: the Geth history lesson was bogus and I don't believe it.

That's your opinion, but it makes plenty of sense to me if you you don't have a Geth hate fetish thing. I can but shrug. I don't hate the Quarians, either, nor do I hate you for your opinion. I just see your opinion as more blinkered than mine. I dislike Han'Gerrel -- the individual. You dislike the Geth -- the race. That's kind of like having one person who hates Hitler, and then having another who hates every living creature in Germany.

You are aware of Godwin's Law, I hope?

[Argolas]

Whybother wrote...

You are aware of Godwin's Law, I hope?

Sh, it only works when people don't have it in mind

Seriously though: The Quarians just didn't value Geth as alive and that was the main problem. They were tools getting out of hand... not really Naz! yet- BUT when quarians started killing their own people just because they tried to protect Geth- then I actually find a Naz! comparison appropriate.

[Steelcan]

Anybody else get nice warm feeling after killing the Geth VI?

[Steelcan]

Argolas wrote...

Whybother wrote...

You are aware of Godwin's Law, I hope?

Sh, it only works when people don't have it in mind

Seriously though: The Quarians just didn't value Geth as alive and that was the main problem. They were tools getting out of hand... not really Naz! yet- BUT when quarians started killing their own people just because they tried to protect Geth- then I actually find a Naz! comparison appropriate.

.  And it is clear the geth did not value the quarian individuals.

[AresKeith]

chemiclord wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Legion has never lied. He's omitted things but he actually doesn't understand the concept of lying.

Have to disagree here.  I think it is quite well versed in lying.  It even appears rather remorseful when it feels compelled to come clean.  It clearly doesn't LIKE leaving those details out, but is afraid of how Shepard will react to the truth.

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

Which made me think the Catalyst is even more capable of lying

[DeinonSlayer]

Argolas wrote...

Whybother wrote...

You are aware of Godwin's Law, I hope?

Sh, it only works when people don't have it in mind

Seriously though: The Quarians just didn't value Geth as alive and that was the main problem. They were tools getting out of hand... not really Naz! yet- BUT when quarians started killing their own people just because they tried to protect Geth- then I actually find a Naz! comparison appropriate.

Some interpret that scene as a door breach gone wrong. Even Legion doesn't claim any kind of Quarian-on-Quarian democide took place. If such were the case, one could rest assured that the Geth VI would have tried to exploit it. Instead, it skirts by the issue with as little acknowledgement of the Geth sympathizers as possible.

[Whybother]

I've always wondered - suppose you support the Geth VI on Rannoch. Are you supposed to feel all sad when it sacrifices itself? I know that's how most people feel when Legion does it, since he was your bud since ME2, but the VI (especially if you never turned on Legion) is very standoffish. "Oh, you are going to die now, kkthxbye."