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[Whybother]

AresKeith wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

Which made me think the Catalyst is even more capable of lying

I only believe the Catalyst because the game shows us that it was telling the truth.  A zero-knowledge Shepard would have no reason to trust the Catalyst.

[Steelcan]

Whybother wrote...

I've always wondered - suppose you support the Geth VI on Rannoch. Are you supposed to feel all sad when it sacrifices itself? I know that's how most people feel when Legion does it, since he was your bud since ME2, but the VI (especially if you never turned on Legion) is very standoffish. "Oh, you are going to die now, kkthxbye."

.  If you can manage to side with the geth VI..........

[AresKeith]

Whybother wrote...

I've always wondered - suppose you support the Geth VI on Rannoch. Are you supposed to feel all sad when it sacrifices itself? I know that's how most people feel when Legion does it, since he was your bud since ME2, but the VI (especially if you never turned on Legion) is very standoffish. "Oh, you are going to die now, kkthxbye."

Well if I had Geth VI and not Legion, I would side with the Quarians

[DeinonSlayer]

Whybother wrote...

I've always wondered - suppose you support the Geth VI on Rannoch. Are you supposed to feel all sad when it sacrifices itself? I know that's how most people feel when Legion does it, since he was your bud since ME2, but the VI (especially if you never turned on Legion) is very standoffish. "Oh, you are going to die now, kkthxbye."

Not really. It's more along the lines of:

VI: Oh yeah, I'm gonna kill the Quarians now.
Shepard: Go ahead.
VI: ...huh. Wouldn't have thought you'd roll with that. *uploads*

[AresKeith]

Whybother wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

Which made me think the Catalyst is even more capable of lying

I only believe the Catalyst because the game shows us that it was telling the truth.  A zero-knowledge Shepard would have no reason to trust the Catalyst.

I don't think he was completely lying to Shepard, but more like trying to manipulate Shepard

[Whybother]

AresKeith wrote...

Whybother wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I dare say Legion understands the concept of lying quite well.

Which made me think the Catalyst is even more capable of lying

I only believe the Catalyst because the game shows us that it was telling the truth.  A zero-knowledge Shepard would have no reason to trust the Catalyst.

I don't think he was completely lying to Shepard, but more like trying to manipulate Shepard

True, and manipulation take on different forms (not just lying of course.)  If you are very into free will and "no more deaths", the Catalyst makes Control sound extremely appealing.  If you've accepted that there will be a lot of stacked dead bodies to stop the Reapers once and for all - and that everyone on-board has signed on, Destroy is the ticket. 

Let me rephrase: there is manipulation going on but it's not by the Catalyst

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wulfie entered.... logic perished. You think I get emotional?

Back to the topic of the thread since the side tracking of the topic to the Quarians attacking the Geth on Rannoch has been discussed ad infinitum..

I do think that if the situation the Quarians faced happened here on Earth, the response would be the same, and the result would be pretty similar. I read some posts since my last one.

No, the Quarians never put any moral programming into the Geth because they were never expecting them to become sentient let alone sapient. If they were, you can bet there would have been some moral controls programmed into them. Perhaps then they might not have been so afraid.

Our first robots we create here will be for the sole purpose of killing humans. You can bet on it. This is going to be the biggest mistake we can make.

@Whybother: Yeah, the manipulator is Super Mac.

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...

remydat wrote...

No evidence thosr Quarians still existed.

Legion's history lesson shows Quarians sticking up for the Geth.  If you say those Quarians didn't exist, then Legion must have lied. QED.

Key word in my statement was STILL.  They existed and then their fellow Quarians appear to have killed or silenced them.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 05:32 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Our first robots we create here will be for the sole purpose of killing humans. You can bet on it. This is going to be the biggest mistake we can make.

Not true. We already have all sorts of robots. We have robots that can sweep for mines and disarm explosives, robots that can move through any environment at high speeds for hours at a time, robots which learn how to walk without any human input, robots designed to make more of themselves and at least one robot designed to seek revenge for slights against itself.

On the bright side experiments done with colonies of tiny robots and 'food disks' showed that robots are capable of instinctively figuring out altruism and cooperation. So there's that.

[Whybother]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Our first robots we create here will be for the sole purpose of killing humans. You can bet on it. This is going to be the biggest mistake we can make.

Not true. We already have all sorts of robots. We have robots that can sweep for mines and disarm explosives, robots that can move through any environment at high speeds for hours at a time, robots which learn how to walk without any human input, robots designed to make more of themselves and at least one robot designed to seek revenge for slights against itself.

On the bright side experiments done with colonies of tiny robots and 'food disks' showed that robots are capable of instinctively figuring out altruism and cooperation. So there's that.

So you would say "Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto"?

Modifié par Whybother, 04 mai 2013 - 05:10 .

[remydat]

Shotgun

Sounds like we will have no one to blame but ourselves. Oh well that's life. If we are too stupid as a species to avoid a mistake that countless stories have warned about then guess Darwin wins again and we are not fit to survive.

[S.A.K]

Funny. Geth side is still saying it's genocide, but it's not genocide...

Steelcan wrote...

Anybody else get nice warm feeling after killing the Geth VI?

I got nice warm feeling after killing all the Geth. How's that?
Specially after they killed billions of Rannoch and kept killing for the next 300 years, Legion's lies of omission to get Sheps favor (Sadly, some people tent to trust Legion than they trust their own mother...) , doing nothing in the next 300 years to improve their image and make peace and siding with the Reapers to save their asses.

I said this before, but I'd say it again : 
Best solution for the synthetic problem imo is to pick destroy ending and enforce the laws against creating new AIs even harder. Galaxy is fine without synthetics.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Shotgun

Sounds like we will have no one to blame but ourselves. Oh well that's life. If we are too stupid as a species to avoid a mistake that countless stories have warned about then guess Darwin wins again and we are not fit to survive.

Let's hope people keep an "off switch" so MW 2.0 don't happen here.
We are like 10 years away from making AIs of our own.

[remydat]

Sak,

Well let's hope we are smarter than Leviathan and include a "don't f**king kill me under any circumstances even if you think it will be for my own good" command. That will be a good start.

[SeptimusMagistos]

S.A.K wrote...

Best solution for the synthetic problem imo is to pick destroy ending and enforce the laws against creating new AIs even harder. Galaxy is fine without synthetics.

Listen, if we don't build synthetics then we can't get a self-improving intelligence or immortality with backups. Your solution does not work.

S.A.K wrote...

Let's hope people keep an "off switch" so MW 2.0 don't happen here.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
We are like 10 years away from making AIs of our own.

If someone had an "off switch" to you, what would you do to make sure they could never press it?

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 04 mai 2013 - 05:53 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Sak,

Well let's hope we are smarter than Leviathan and include a "don't f**king kill me under any circumstances even if you think it will be for my own good" command. That will be a good start.

Haha good one. That or we'll be starting the freaking cycle.

[remydat]

The fundamental problem with a don't build synthetics law is organics are lazy and greedy so the greedy bastards will create synthetics so they can sell them to the lazy bastards.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 05:54 .

[S.A.K]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Best solution for the synthetic problem imo is to pick destroy ending and enforce the laws against creating new AIs even harder. Galaxy is fine without synthetics.

Listen, if we don't build synthetics then we can't get a self-improving intelligence or immortality with backups. Your solution does not work.

S.A.K wrote...

Let's hope people keep an "off switch" so MW 2.0 don't happen here.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
We are like 10 years away from making AIs of our own.

If someone had an "off switch" to you, what would you do to make sure they could never press it?

We don't have synthetics right now do we. Still we are doing pretty well. If we really need those, just create limited intelegence VI. In MEU, other races are doing much better then the Quarians and they don't use AIs. Even if we build AI, we don't need a whole race of em. So like I said first one is the best solution.
If we resort to the "off switch" better not to let the AIs know about it.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

The fundamental problem with a don't build synthetics law is organics are lazy and greedy so the greedy bastards will create synthetics so they can sell them to the lazy bastards.

Only AI we know in the MEU apart from the Geth and Reapers are the few AIs made by cerberus(EDI and EVA). So the law appeared to have worked for the most part. Even if the AIs are created, they wouldn't be a big problem if they are not in huge numbers.
Of course no solution is perfect, but there is a best that can be done.

[SeptimusMagistos]

S.A.K wrote...

We don't have synthetics right now do we. Still we are doing pretty well.

Compared to how we would be doing if we had AIs? No. No we are not.

[remydat]

Sak

I am not so sure the law worked as organics are still newbies to the AI game. Hence why the Quarians screwed up and created one by mistake. If they really knew how this AI stuff worked they would not have screwed up so monumentally.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 06:07 .

[S.A.K]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

We don't have synthetics right now do we. Still we are doing pretty well.

Compared to how we would be doing if we had AIs? No. No we are not.

I am sorry, but that's kind of silly way to look at it. It's been just over 100 years since the first powered flight. Look at where we are now. We landed men on the moon, we have supersonic jets, we have pretty powerful computers, we have probes exploring the outer reaches of our solar system. All that was done without any AI and mostly within one human life time.
Do we really need Skynet or Morning War before realizing that AIs are a bad idea? Are those better than what we have right now? We don't need to hurry it up and screw it up big time.

remydat wrote...

Sak

I am not so sure the law
worked as organics are still newbies to the AI game. Hence why the
Quarians screwed up and created one by mistake. If they really knew how
this AI stuff worked they would not have screwed up so
monumentally.

No, humans are newbies. Other reces had the tech for thousands of years, but they kept it in check. Nobody other than Quarians created AIs to the extent of becoming a threat. Geth becoming AI was a not intended anyway.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

No, humans are newbies. Other reces had the tech for thousands of years, but they kept it in check. Nobody other than Quarians created AIs to the extent of becoming a threat. Geth becoming AI was a not intended anyway.

That is precisely the point.  When you accidentally create an AI that then kills billions of your people, you are a newbie.  

[Goneaviking]

remydat wrote...


It is not Genocide if the enemy keeps coming and you are forced to keep killing them. We have no proof the Quarians stopped attacking and the Geth continued.

"Shepard Commander, they kept coming. The infants, unable to stand but armed to the gums. The decision was binary, destroy or be destroyed."

[remydat]

"Shepard Commander, why would the Quarians attack innocent geth domestic and farming units that were merely cleaning their homes and planting seeds for them?  And why did they not care enough about their cute little kids that they would risk their lives attacking us?

Sheppard - Well Legion, see that hornet's nest over there.  Now watch that idiot father keep poking at it and then when they sting the sh*t out of him and his son standing right next to him, watch him get mad and blame the hornets for attacking his son.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 08:36 .