889 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

Those who support the Quarians want to use the events in the Morning War as an excuse for the start of it. Those who support the Geth are (the majority) accepting that atrocities were made by both sides but that the fundamental start of the war was an error on the Quarian side.

Look at any war in human history and you will find war crimes, atrocities and horrors committed by both sides. War is an ugly business where morals and restraints are sometimes thrown out of the window for many reasons. Yet the only way to understand the war outside of the physical conflict itself is what started it and what ended it.

The Quarians started the war by trying to kill a newly sentient species, the Geth ended the war by driving the Quarians from their homeworld and then letting them go.

[Goneaviking]

I'm much happier supporting the Geth over the Quarians.

The problem is that team Geth is denying that their boys committed genocide, when that is exactly what they did.

It doesn't matter if they, or the Quarians, had developed the concept. We didn't have the concept until the 1940s, but we'd still practiced it thousands of times throughout our history before we actually formalized the concept.

If you eradicate 99% of a civilization, that is genocide. I don't care if you felt like you had no choice, I don't care if they started it and would've done worse, it doesn't change what you've done.

[Morlath]

Goneaviking wrote...

If you eradicate 99% of a civilization, that is genocide. I don't care if you felt like you had no choice, I don't care if they started it and would've done worse, it doesn't change what you've done.

No, it doesn't. We really don't know the specifics and we never will, instead all we know are that one potential genocide of the Geth became a genocide of the Quarians and then, rather than exterminating the entire species, the Geth allowed the remaining millions to leave.

The Quarians continued to act as if they were at war with the Geth, the Geth didn't (in the beginning) and then, once again, the Quarians attack in such a way that forces the Geth into upgrading with Reaper tech. Regardless of if Shepard sides with Quarians or not, the idiocy of the attack has cost thousands of lives just like the initial war cost billions.

[Alien Number Six]

If my PS3 suddenly asked me if it had a soul I would be scared ****less. The first thing I would do is unplug it. When it dosen't shut down and asks me why I tried to "kill" it my first thought will be. Will it want revenge? I didn't make it through iraq just to get killed by my playstation. I would go get my 45. and put a full clip into it soul or not. Then I would drive to the local VA mental health clinic to make sure the whole thing wasn't my brain misfiring.

Was the Morning War unjustified? Yes

Was the Morning War understandable? Hell yes.

[Goneaviking]

Morlath wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

If you eradicate 99% of a civilization, that is genocide. I don't care if you felt like you had no choice, I don't care if they started it and would've done worse, it doesn't change what you've done.

No, it doesn't. We really don't know the specifics and we never will, instead all we know are that one potential genocide of the Geth became a genocide of the Quarians and then, rather than exterminating the entire species, the Geth allowed the remaining millions to leave.

The Quarians continued to act as if they were at war with the Geth, the Geth didn't (in the beginning) and then, once again, the Quarians attack in such a way that forces the Geth into upgrading with Reaper tech. Regardless of if Shepard sides with Quarians or not, the idiocy of the attack has cost thousands of lives just like the initial war cost billions.

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

The fact that they didn't complete the extermination doesn't mean it isn't a genocide.

You don't kill 99% percent of your enemy's civilization by accident. That kind of score requires intent.

[Morlath]

Goneaviking wrote...

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

The fact that they didn't complete the extermination doesn't mean it isn't a genocide.

You don't kill 99% percent of your enemy's civilization by accident. That kind of score requires intent.

But again, this isn't about the genocide. This is about if the war itself was justifiable or not.

The Geth committed genocide. The Quarians put themselves in a situation where the Geth can do so again only this time kill everyone. The Geth are not innocents. This does not change the fact that the war was not justified!

The Quarians wilfully and deliberately skirted around the edges of AI research, freaked out when said research created AIs and rather than talk to the Geth, they decided to destroy this new sentient life form.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

Sak

I am not so sure the law worked as organics are still newbies to the AI game. Hence why the Quarians screwed up and created one by mistake. If they really knew how this AI stuff worked they would not have screwed up so monumentally.

^^^^ This...

Like Tali was telling us the change was so gradual no one even noticed until all of a sudden the Geth were refusing commands. We saw one example in the Consensus where one was refusing its shutdown command. Apparently shutdown commands were routine, like we shut down our computers when we're not using them.

Uh oh, this is scary. Opti and I agree on something. Now Remy and I agree on something.

And then on Luna station, with that "VI" the Alliance was experimenting with some advanced VI tech and accidently created an AI, and still we don't know the full story. I would "speculate" Hackett didn't tell us the full story. The Luna VI started questioning commands, and when they tried to shut it down it panicked and killed everyone in the station. Then Shepard went in and shut it down by severing the power conduits.

[Morlath]

Alien Number Six wrote...

If my PS3 suddenly asked me if it had a soul I would be scared ****less. The first thing I would do is unplug it. When it dosen't shut down and asks me why I tried to "kill" it my first thought will be. Will it want revenge? I didn't make it through iraq just to get killed by my playstation. I would go get my 45. and put a full clip into it soul or not. Then I would drive to the local VA mental health clinic to make sure the whole thing wasn't my brain misfiring.

Was the Morning War unjustified? Yes

Was the Morning War understandable? Hell yes.

Okay, I see this PC/PS3/Toaster argument all the time and it has nothing to do with the Geth situation.

You aren't trying to turn your (insert electrical equipment here) into a Virtual Intelligence using techniques close to the construction of an AI. Having said equipment suddenly ask questions is not the same as deliberately programming it to be intelligent to the point where it becomes sentient.

[Display Name Owner]

What were the Quarians supposed to do? Let the Geth expand and share their homeworld, not knowing what they might become or what decisions they might make? We know now that most Geth are benign (or indifferent, rather), but how could the Quarians have predicted that? The only safe thing to do was shut the Geth down. And if we were talking about actual people here, I'd be thinking very differently, but the Geth weren't people. They were tools whose programming had gotten a little out of hand, at least when the Morning War took place. They've evolved beyond that now, which makes the issue somewhat more complex. At the time they were very simple things, which explains their actions. They didn't think what they were doing was wrong, because they didn't know what right or wrong was, nor could they understand the Quarians' pain. Doesn't justify their slaughter either, just explains it.

But I've always taken the position that there is blame on both sides.

[Morlath]

isnudo wrote...

What were the Quarians supposed to do? Let the Geth expand and share their homeworld, not knowing what they might become or what decisions they might make? We know now that most Geth are benign (or indifferent, rather), but how could the Quarians have predicted that? The only safe thing to do was shut the Geth down.

How about when a Geth asks the reason why it's being asked to shut down the Quarians try talking to it?

And if we were talking about actual people here, I'd be thinking very differently, but the Geth weren't people. They were tools whose programming had gotten a little out of hand, at least when the Morning War took place. They've evolved beyond that now, which makes the issue somewhat more complex.
.

Incorrect. Their physical platforms were created to be nothing but tools but their programming bordered on AI to the point they became AI. It doesn't matter if a sentient life form is inside an organic body, a synthetic one or a gaseous cloud, the thing is alive and aware.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

isnudo wrote...

What were the Quarians supposed to do? Let the Geth expand and share their homeworld, not knowing what they might become or what decisions they might make? We know now that most Geth are benign (or indifferent, rather), but how could the Quarians have predicted that? The only safe thing to do was shut the Geth down.

How about when a Geth asks the reason why it's being asked to shut down the Quarians try talking to it?

It's pretty clear from the way they reacted, those two Quarians didn't know they were dealing with an AI. They were talking about why it's not responding and tried to figure out the malfunction.

And if we were talking about actual people here, I'd be thinking very differently, but the Geth weren't people. They were tools whose programming had gotten a little out of hand, at least when the Morning War took place. They've evolved beyond that now, which makes the issue somewhat more complex.
.

Incorrect. Their physical platforms were created to be nothing but tools but their programming bordered on AI to the point they became AI. It doesn't matter if a sentient life form is inside an organic body, a synthetic one or a gaseous cloud, the thing is alive and aware.

Sure, but we don't know at which point the Quarians figured out that they were dealing with AIs. If they did not realize it, they thought they were dealing with equipment.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

It's pretty clear from the way they reacted, those two Quarians didn't know they were dealing with an AI. They were talking about why it's not responding and tried to figure out the malfunction.

It's only clear that they continued to treat the Geth as a Vi droid.

Sure, but we don't know at which point the Quarians figured out that they were dealing with AIs. If they did not realize it, they thought they were dealing with equipment.

Tali tells us this in ME1. It's the exact moment when a Geth unit asked "Does this unit have a soul?" and other questions on its place in the universe.

Modifié par Morlath, 04 mai 2013 - 10:54 .

[Dunabar]

-=History is written by the victors=-
The Geth consensus did a good job at painting the Quarians as the
aggressors, however, there is ong thing I think people haven't taken
note of....

We saw a Geth PLATFORM attempted to be shut down by the Quarians, not a Geth SERVER. Congrats to the Geth, you failed at portraying your "deaths", and only showed the deactivation of a platform. If the Geth only "die" when the server is taken out, than the deactivation of a platform is not "killing" the Geth. I ultimately view this as an act of disarming the servers.

-=One man's justice is another's injustice=-
The Morning War - just or unjust? is part of a philosophical opinion war that will be fought till the very day we die. It's two sides will continue to hold their philosophical views  no matter what, even if the two cannot be proven wrong or right.

(Note: When I say "You" I don't mean anyone in particular)

Alive or not? is a philosophical opinion
You say: The Geth are alive
I say: They're just machines, nothing more.

Killing vs. Deactivation is just as much a part of Alive or not? therefor another philosophical opinion
You say: The Quarians were trying to kill the Geth
I say: The Quarians were trying to shut off machines called "Geth"

Self-defense vs. Genocide is another state of opinion
You say: The Geth were acting in self-defense
I ask: Where does defense end and genocide begin?

Rannoch is home for both or one? More opinion
You claim: Rannoch is home to the Geth
I state: Quarians are liberating their home from the Geth

This is a endless war of opinions between the Quarian & Geth supporters. Opinions are not always able to be proven wrong or right

I will leave this discussion on one final saying and this...

In the end of it all, only your own personal opinion will tell you which
is the true path to justice, but be mindful; Your justice is another's injustice.

What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.

Modifié par Dunabar, 04 mai 2013 - 11:21 .

[Goneaviking]

Morlath wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"

The fact that they didn't complete the extermination doesn't mean it isn't a genocide.

You don't kill 99% percent of your enemy's civilization by accident. That kind of score requires intent.

But again, this isn't about the genocide. This is about if the war itself was justifiable or not.

The Geth committed genocide. The Quarians put themselves in a situation where the Geth can do so again only this time kill everyone. The Geth are not innocents. This does not change the fact that the war was not justified!

The Quarians wilfully and deliberately skirted around the edges of AI research, freaked out when said research created AIs and rather than talk to the Geth, they decided to destroy this new sentient life form.

That's the thing, the Geths advocates have been denying that it occurred. So long as that's been happening it's been hard to take them seriously as advocates for their position. Without a concensus on at least the basic outline of what happened the only productive discussion is going to be focussed on establishing that concensus.

I don't think there's a way to credibly argue that the war was justified based on what we know, but I find it an entirely plausible notion to posit that the Quarians may have started the war unintentionally. Certainly it's viable to posit a sequence of events where the Quarians failed to recognise the Geth as a new race, and even as Artificial Intelligences rather than faulty hardware until after the point that the Geth began fighting back than to presume they began outright violence.

If that were the case, if the Geth interpreted the Quarian trying to shut them down as an act of war or perhaps more likely as mass murder, it's entirely possible that the Geth struck first and initiated intentional violence to preserve their own existence.

In that light the war may be justifiable as a war of self-defence, even though the extremes it was taken to aren't. However if it really was just mobs, or even the military, riding out into the fields to shoot up the automated plough geth, then I really don't see a moral justification for striking first.

[Ledgend1221]

Dunabar wrote...

-=History is written by the victors=-
The Geth consensus did a good job at painting the Quarians as the
aggressors, however, there is ong thing I think people haven't taken
note of....

We saw a Geth PLATFORM attempted to be shut down by the Quarians, not a Geth SERVER. Congrats to the Geth, you failed at portraying your "deaths", and only showed the deactivation of a platform. If the Geth only "die" when the server is taken out, than the deactivation of a platform is not "killing" the Geth. I ultimately view this as an act of disarming the servers.

-=One man's justice is another's injustice=-
The Morning War - just or unjust? is part of a philosophical opinion war that will be fought till the very day we die. It's two sides will continue to hold their philosophical views  no matter what, even if the two cannot be proven wrong or right.

(Note: When I say "You" I don't mean anyone in particular)

Alive or not? is a philosophical opinion
You say: The Geth are alive
I say: They're just machines, nothing more.

Killing vs. Deactivation is just as much a part of Alive or not? therefor another philosophical opinion
You say: The Quarians were trying to kill the Geth
I say: The Quarians were trying to shut off machines called "Geth"

Self-defense vs. Genocide is another state of opinion
You say: The Geth were acting in self-defense
I ask: Where does defense end and genocide begin?

Rannoch is home for both or one? More opinion
You claim: Rannoch is home to the Geth
I state: Quarians are liberating their home from the Geth

This is a endless war of opinions between the Quarian & Geth supporters. Opinions are not always able to be proven wrong or right

I will leave this discussion on one final saying and this...

In the end of it all, only your own personal opinion will tell you which
is the true path to justice, but be mindful; Your justice is another's injustice.

What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

[S.A.K]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

I say: The Geth sided with the Reapers and deserve extinction. And that's what they got in all my playthroughs. I am also glad the Legion dies no matter what.

[Morlath]

Dunabar wrote...

-=History is written by the victors=-
The Geth consensus did a good job at painting the Quarians as the
aggressors, however, there is ong thing I think people haven't taken
note of....

We saw a Geth PLATFORM attempted to be shut down by the Quarians, not a Geth SERVER. Congrats to the Geth, you failed at portraying your "deaths", and only showed the deactivation of a platform. If the Geth only "die" when the server is taken out, than the deactivation of a platform is not "killing" the Geth. I ultimately view this as an act of disarming the servers.

-=One man's justice is another's injustice=-
The Morning War - just or unjust? is part of a philosophical opinion war that will be fought till the very day we die. It's two sides will continue to hold their philosophical views  no matter what, even if the two cannot be proven wrong or right.

(Note: When I say "You" I don't mean anyone in particular)

Alive or not? is a philosophical opinion
You say: The Geth are alive
I say: They're just machines, nothing more.

Killing vs. Deactivation is just as much a part of Alive or not? therefor another philosophical opinion
You say: The Quarians were trying to kill the Geth
I say: The Quarians were trying to shut off machines called "Geth"

Self-defense vs. Genocide is another state of opinion
You say: The Geth were acting in self-defense
I ask: Where does defense end and genocide begin?

Rannoch is home for both or one? More opinion
You claim: Rannoch is home to the Geth
I state: Quarians are liberating their home from the Geth

This is a endless war of opinions between the Quarian & Geth supporters. Opinions are not always able to be proven wrong or right

I will leave this discussion on one final saying and this...

In the end of it all, only your own personal opinion will tell you which
is the true path to justice, but be mindful; Your justice is another's injustice.

What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.

Life:
Wiki - A characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signalling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not.

Online Dictionary - The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead
organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as
metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation
to the environment originating from within the organism.

The Oxford Dictionary - The condition that distinguishes animals and
plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth,
reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death:

Your post boils down to the singular fact that you believe the Geth to not be alive. My opinion is based upon the accepted meaning of what "Life" is.

The Geth reproduce by building new units and the Quarians admit that each unit is singular in nature. The Geth grow and evolve, Tali's "loyalty" mission in ME1 is about giving her the data so that they can work out just how much since the Morning War. The Geth respond to stimuli, have and change opinions. The Geth were a living race before the Morning War regardless of what skin colour/physical shell they possessed.

[Argolas]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

You are saying that when a country starts a war and loses, wiping out 99% of the population is justified?

[IanPolaris]

Goneaviking wrote...

If you eradicate 99% of a civilization, that is genocide. I don't care if you felt like you had no choice, I don't care if they started it and would've done worse, it doesn't change what you've done.

This simply isn't so.  Just because you wipe out 99% (or even 100%) of a species doesn't make it genocide.  The standard for genocide is high:  It has to be deliberate and systematic

There is no evidence that the Geth destroyed Quarians simply because they were Quarian (this is needed to meet the deliberate and systemic bars).  Indeed the available data we do have suggests that the Geth drove the Quarians from their planets (whcih would naturally cause a 99% death rate due to ecosystem loss alone) out of self-defense, i.e. the Quarians simply would not or could not coexist with the Geth without trying to destroy them.  This by no means means that that Geth didn't commit war crimes (by our standards) or were innocent in all ways.  They almost surely were not.

But there is NO EVIDENCE that what the Geth did ever rose to the level of Genocide.

There is plenty of evidence that shows that both the Quarians and later on the Heretics did rise to this level.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Argolas wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

You are saying that when a country starts a war and loses, wiping out 99% of the population is justified?

If the people of that losing country refuse to stop fighting forcing the other side to defend itself, then yes.  That 's what it means.

Remember that the real reason the Quarians lost 99% of their population was because they lost all of their planets and thus ecosystem.  One follows the other.  Why did they lose them?  Because the Quarians refused to permit the Geth to coexist besides them.  Given the coldly logical and utilitarian nature of the Geth, the response is obvious:  If a race is unwilling to allow you to live, then that races becomes an existential threat to your existance and you are permitted to eliminate that threat.  In that light if what the Geth did was genocode, then so was killing the Darkspawn in DAO.

-Polaris

[Ryzaki]

S.A.K wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

I say: The Geth sided with the Reapers and deserve extinction. And that's what they got in all my playthroughs. I am also glad the Legion dies no matter what.

And I'm glad I can side with the Geth. And Tali throws her self off a cliff. :innocent:

And my Shep saw her face

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mai 2013 - 01:49 .

[Argolas]

IanPolaris wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

You are saying that when a country starts a war and loses, wiping out 99% of the population is justified?

If the people of that losing country refuse to stop fighting forcing the other side to defend itself, then yes.  That 's what it means.

Remember that the real reason the Quarians lost 99% of their population was because they lost all of their planets and thus ecosystem.  One follows the other.  Why did they lose them?  Because the Quarians refused to permit the Geth to coexist besides them.  Given the coldly logical and utilitarian nature of the Geth, the response is obvious:  If a race is unwilling to allow you to live, then that races becomes an existential threat to your existance and you are permitted to eliminate that threat.  In that light if what the Geth did was genocode, then so was killing the Darkspawn in DAO.

-Polaris

Once again- among the Quarian victims were countless of those who did not want or even couldn't fight. Unarmed civillians, children, old people, or just the masses that didn't care about the Geth and just wanted to live their life. Rannoch's ecosystem isn't the reason, it was clearly intact enough to support life.

The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found. It's genocide all right, even if you refuse to admit it. I'll say it again: The Geth were innocent victims once and that makes them saints to some people.

By the way, darkspawn are not life. They can only exist through abducting and perverting women of living species, just like viruses can only reproduce by comtaminating already living cells. Viruses are therefore not alive (while bacteria are), so darkspawn wouldn't be either.

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

I say: The Geth sided with the Reapers and deserve extinction. And that's what they got in all my playthroughs. I am also glad the Legion dies no matter what.

And I'm glad I can side with the Geth. And Tali throws her self off a cliff. :innocent:

And my Shep saw her face

I remember going through with this with someone. Was that you? Anyway, tell me if you manage to save Legion cos Tali's fine in my game.

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...


The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found.

You are assuming this.

There were many Geth units not designed for combat that either had to learn or be destroyed. Every Geth unit was to be destroyed regardless of what it was originally built to do.

The Quarians wanted to systematically destroy/kill every Geth unit. We do not know if the mass deaths of the Quarians resulted from city to city slaughtering or non-discrepant weapons used by the Geth.