Aller au contenu

Photo

The Morning War - Unjustified?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
889 réponses à ce sujet

#351
Argolas

Argolas
  • Members
  • 4 255 messages

S.A.K wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

I say: The quarians started a war they could not win and deserved every death.

I say: The Geth sided with the Reapers and deserve extinction. And that's what they got in all my playthroughs. I am also glad the Legion dies no matter what.:devil:


And I'm glad I can side with the Geth. And Tali throws her self off a cliff. :innocent:

And my Shep saw her face :P

I remember going through with this with someone. Was that you? Anyway, tell me if you manage to save Legion cos Tali's fine in my game.


Legion is "Reaper code or death!" vs. "Reaper code and death!". Can't say I have many regrets.

#352
Argolas

Argolas
  • Members
  • 4 255 messages

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...


The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found.


You are assuming this.

There were many Geth units not designed for combat that either had to learn or be destroyed. Every Geth unit was to be destroyed regardless of what it was originally built to do.

The Quarians wanted to systematically destroy/kill every Geth unit. We do not know if the mass deaths of the Quarians resulted from city to city slaughtering or non-discrepant weapons used by the Geth.


*facepalm* more than 99% of all Quarians died and you try to say it's not the Geth's fault.

Can someone please get beyond "Quarians: Evil slaughterers- Geth: Innocent victims" muster?

99% don't die for no reason!

#353
S.A.K

S.A.K
  • Members
  • 2 741 messages

Argolas wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

If the people of that losing country refuse to stop fighting forcing the other side to defend itself, then yes.  That 's what it means.

Remember that the real reason the Quarians lost 99% of their population was because they lost all of their planets and thus ecosystem.  One follows the other.  Why did they lose them?  Because the Quarians refused to permit the Geth to coexist besides them.  Given the coldly logical and utilitarian nature of the Geth, the response is obvious:  If a race is unwilling to allow you to live, then that races becomes an existential threat to your existance and you are permitted to eliminate that threat.  In that light if what the Geth did was genocode, then so was killing the Darkspawn in DAO.

-Polaris


Once again- among the Quarian victims were countless of those who did not want or even couldn't fight. Unarmed civillians, children, old people, or just the masses that didn't care about the Geth and just wanted to live their life. Rannoch's ecosystem isn't the reason, it was clearly intact enough to support life.

The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found. It's genocide all right, even if you refuse to admit it. I'll say it again: The Geth were innocent victims once and that makes them saints to some people.

By the way, darkspawn are not life. They can only exist through abducting and perverting women of living species, just like viruses can only reproduce by comtaminating already living cells. Viruses are therefore not alive (while bacteria are), so darkspawn wouldn't be either.

What ever the Geth did, it's cool for some people because Geth look cool...

Also whether the Geth are alive or not is still up for debate while Quarians are clearly life. Personally I value natural life over synthetic life any day.

#354
S.A.K

S.A.K
  • Members
  • 2 741 messages

Argolas wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I remember going through with this with someone. Was that you? Anyway, tell me if you manage to save Legion cos Tali's fine in my game.


Legion is "Reaper code or death!" vs. "Reaper code and death!". Can't say I have many regrets.

And the only thing you can control about Legions death is how painful it is...:P

#355
Morlath

Morlath
  • Members
  • 579 messages

Argolas wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...


The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found.


You are assuming this.

There were many Geth units not designed for combat that either had to learn or be destroyed. Every Geth unit was to be destroyed regardless of what it was originally built to do.

The Quarians wanted to systematically destroy/kill every Geth unit. We do not know if the mass deaths of the Quarians resulted from city to city slaughtering or non-discrepant weapons used by the Geth.


*facepalm* more than 99% of all Quarians died and you try to say it's not the Geth's fault.

Can someone please get beyond "Quarians: Evil slaughterers- Geth: Innocent victims" muster?

99% don't die for no reason!


You're ignoring my point.

I've said before that the start of the war and the acts through it should be looked at seperately. The Geth were innocent sentient victims PRIOR to the war. However I still do not know how the Geth killed the Quarians and neither do you.

#356
Argolas

Argolas
  • Members
  • 4 255 messages

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...


The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found.


You are assuming this.

There were many Geth units not designed for combat that either had to learn or be destroyed. Every Geth unit was to be destroyed regardless of what it was originally built to do.

The Quarians wanted to systematically destroy/kill every Geth unit. We do not know if the mass deaths of the Quarians resulted from city to city slaughtering or non-discrepant weapons used by the Geth.


*facepalm* more than 99% of all Quarians died and you try to say it's not the Geth's fault.

Can someone please get beyond "Quarians: Evil slaughterers- Geth: Innocent victims" muster?

99% don't die for no reason!


You're ignoring my point.

I've said before that the start of the war and the acts through it should be looked at seperately. The Geth were innocent sentient victims PRIOR to the war. However I still do not know how the Geth killed the Quarians and neither do you.


There are no weapons that would kill the whole population but leave the planet perfectly intact.

#357
Auld Wulf

Auld Wulf
  • Members
  • 1 284 messages

IanPolaris wrote...

If the people of that losing country refuse to stop fighting forcing the other side to defend itself, then yes.  That 's what it means.

That's a very important thing to understand. It's also important to understand that a losing side is going to get increasingly more dangerous. My hunch as to What Happened on Rannoch is that the Geth were just fall guys for a brewing civil war, anyway. The protection of the Geth as, essentially, a "baby" species was something that the civilians could unify around. I've mentioned that we saw instances of this in the Consensus.

I think What Happened on Rannoch was that the despotic Quarian leaders had more on their hands than they could handle. They were already afraid of the Geth and they believed that the Geth gave the civilians an advantage (even though initially the Geth weren't fighting), so they were backed into a corner. Instead of raising the white flag and offering their surrender, they instead got more brutal with their weaponry and bombardments, likely letting fly with all manner of biological bombardments and atomic weaponry. I wouldn't be surprised if there were smouldering craters on Rannoch where cities used to be.

Once the military had wiped out almost all civilian population (most of the planet) out of fear for their reign, they then moved onto the Geth whom had, up to that point, not participated in the war effort. They started "deactivating" Geth, and this is when the Geth started fighting back. We see in the Consensus that the first time a Geth actually picked up a gun was to defend another Geth unit that had no idea how to defend itself and otherwise would have died. The only reason the Geth shot back was out of self defence, to end the eradication.

After having destroyed their own civilian populace and then losing to the Geth, the military chose to run. They falsified records of what truly happened on Rannoch and hoped to use that to get Council aid in retaking their homeworld. Instead of saying that they were responsible for killing their own, the Geth were used as a fall guy. They were hoping that this representation of the Evil Geth Menace would inspire the Council to help them flush their homeworld clean. That didn't happen, instead the Council instituted an anti-AI law.

The story of the Evil Geth was passed between Quarian ships to present day, and now it's all they believe. Possibly only the Admiralty board know any different of What Happened on Rannoch. But sadly, What happens on Rannoch stays on Rannoch, and we have no idea of what truly transpired there. So this is admittedly all fiction, but it's fiction based upon evidence seen within the Geth consensus and based upon how evil a man Han'Gerrel is. (There's no way you can see using fear tactics to force people to fight in liveships-made-targets as anything but evil.)

Looking at the Quarian situation right now though and how the Quarian military holds power through fear (stand with us or be destroyed by the pirates we protect you from), and how the Quarian military are forcing their civilians to do horrible, terrible things... I don't really doubt that I'm right. That's my take on What Happend on Rannoch. Everyone is going to have their own story, a story for every person. This is mine.

Edit: I'll also say that my story is far, far more nuanced since it involves the Geth as just clueless creatures who've only just come online, and the Quarians with all of their motivations (both ethical and just plain wrong). This allows for far more nuance and intrigue than 'Geth bad, Quarians good, Geth kill Quarians, Quarians kill Geth,' doesn't it? This is actually something I'd like to see BioWare tackle in a future game, as it would be a really fun story to tell. This is what separates a good writer from a bad one, a good writer realises that not everything is black & white.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 04 mai 2013 - 02:21 .


#358
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages
@Morlath, Legion mentions toxins on Rannoch, implying chemical weapons.

#359
Argolas

Argolas
  • Members
  • 4 255 messages

Auld Wulf wrote...
....


^^ Ridiculous headcanon. No military could ever wipe out a significant part of the whole civilian population. Those soldiers have families.

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 02:19 .


#360
Morlath

Morlath
  • Members
  • 579 messages

Argolas wrote...

There are no weapons that would kill the whole population but leave the planet perfectly intact.


Biological warfare? "Area-of-Effect" bombings?

There are quite a number of ways of making a planet inhospitable to native to the apex species without ripping the planet apart.

#361
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages
Auld Wolf, do you have no limits to ridiculousness.

You are resorting to conspiracy theories directly counter to lore. I dont think you are qualified to discuss this topic.

#362
S.A.K

S.A.K
  • Members
  • 2 741 messages

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...


The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found.


You are assuming this.

There were many Geth units not designed for combat that either had to learn or be destroyed. Every Geth unit was to be destroyed regardless of what it was originally built to do.

The Quarians wanted to systematically destroy/kill every Geth unit. We do not know if the mass deaths of the Quarians resulted from city to city slaughtering or non-discrepant weapons used by the Geth.


*facepalm* more than 99% of all Quarians died and you try to say it's not the Geth's fault.

Can someone please get beyond "Quarians: Evil slaughterers- Geth: Innocent victims" muster?

99% don't die for no reason!


You're ignoring my point.

I've said before that the start of the war and the acts through it should be looked at seperately. The Geth were innocent sentient victims PRIOR to the war. However I still do not know how the Geth killed the Quarians and neither do you.

Does it really matter how they killed billions. What would be better, using WMDs or going house to house executing? And the Geth didn't stop there. They kept killing any organic they encountered for the next 300 years until Legion wanted help to deal with the Heretics.

Hard to believe how anyone with a brain could look at the Geth as *good guys" or even lives worth saving.

#363
Auld Wulf

Auld Wulf
  • Members
  • 1 284 messages

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, Legion mentions toxins on Rannoch, implying chemical weapons.

Question is: Who used them? Again, there is evidence of that, but not who pulled the trigger. If a person is found with a bullet in their chest, you can't immediately blame the person who's impervious to bullets just because they are.

Besides, that's bad storytelling. It works in Saturday morning cartoons, but little beyond that.

#364
Argolas

Argolas
  • Members
  • 4 255 messages

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

There are no weapons that would kill the whole population but leave the planet perfectly intact.


Biological warfare? "Area-of-Effect" bombings?

There are quite a number of ways of making a planet inhospitable to native to the apex species without ripping the planet apart.


If Rannoch had been made inhospitable, the Quarians would have abandoned it. They were only fleeing the Geth, and they hoped for the council to help them retake it so they could return. Rannoch had scars, but was still fine. It never got too far so it would become, say, a second Tuchanka.

Organic populations are widespread. With area-covering bombardment of heavily populated areas, you can wipe out large percentages, but for 99% you'd have to cover the whole frickin planet and that obviously didn't happen. Rannoch would be even worse than Tuchanka.

#365
Ledgend1221

Ledgend1221
  • Members
  • 6 456 messages
The only thing the Geth did wrong was that they didn't finish the quarians off.

#366
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, Legion mentions toxins on Rannoch, implying chemical weapons.

Question is: Who used them? Again, there is evidence of that, but not who pulled the trigger. If a person is found with a bullet in their chest, you can't immediately blame the person who's impervious to bullets just because they are.

Besides, that's bad storytelling. It works in Saturday morning cartoons, but little beyond that.

. Lets see.  99% Of all quarians were killed in a year.  Lehion implies the use of chemical weapons which the geth arr impervious to.  The notion that the quarian military killed most of them is ridiculous to the point of not being worth discussion.  The most likely conclusion, ignoring your delusions, is that the geth killed 99% of the quarian population, military and civilian, through the use of chemical weapons.

#367
Morlath

Morlath
  • Members
  • 579 messages

S.A.K wrote...

Does it really matter how they killed billions. What would be better, using WMDs or going house to house executing? And the Geth didn't stop there. They kept killing any organic they encountered for the next 300 years until Legion wanted help to deal with the Heretics.

Hard to believe how anyone with a brain could look at the Geth as *good guys" or even lives worth saving.


When the house to house example is being thrown around as fact to prove the Geth deserved to die in the first place, yes it matters.

Roughly 67,000 non-military British people died during WW2 but these 67,000 weren't killed by the enemy going house to house killing everyone they could. It was mostly caused by military bombings in an attempt to demoralise the country. The attrocities committed by rough military throughout history are morally more horrific than civilian causalties in military attacks and this is obvious by the many laws and decrees the U.N. look to make about what is and isn't appropiate in wartime.

And there is no evidence at all the Geth "kept killing any organic they encountered for the next 300 years until Legion wanted help to deal with the Heretics." In fact we are told that the Geth did not leave the Veil once the Morning War was over.

You're using guesses and opinions to justify the Geth being the "bad guys". I'm using game lore to show that the Geth where innocent up until the beginning of the war.

#368
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages
@Morlath it is mentioned by Tali, and in a book that the Geth killed all ships, diplomatic or otherwise

#369
Auld Wulf

Auld Wulf
  • Members
  • 1 284 messages

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Geth went through an annihilation campaign through Rannoch and every Quarian colony, slaughtering every single Quarian they found.


You are assuming this.

There were many Geth units not designed for combat that either had to learn or be destroyed. Every Geth unit was to be destroyed regardless of what it was originally built to do.

The Quarians wanted to systematically destroy/kill every Geth unit. We do not know if the mass deaths of the Quarians resulted from city to city slaughtering or non-discrepant weapons used by the Geth.

Everything is black & white in the world of Argolas, like a bad '80s Saturday morning cartoon.

To his mind, the Geth are like the Zerg, they're a trained force of evil robots who swooped in to kill the good widdle Quairans. Yet where did they get this training from, or these weapons? Those are two major problems that the black & white world of Argolas actually doesn't answer. What this tells me is that there is nuance to this story that people like him don't actually understand. Nuance is good, it implies mystery and intellect is drawn to mystery.

The Geth were built to serve -- they were not built as evil robots. The Geth Consensus shows that the first Geth to pick up a gun was one to do it as an act of compassion for their own kind. The Quarian military was killing Geth left and right, and they were about to take down a bunch of agricultural units who had little more than animal intelligence. For a Geth, that would be like shooting a dog, I guess. So the Geth witnessing this was spurred into action -- it didn't really understand the consequences of what it was doing as it was still just waking up, with so many questions and few valid answers. But it was spurred into action by the horrors it was witnessing.

The Black & White World of Argolas states: The Geth are evil machines, with military trainings and weapons to boot. This evil armada used this knowledge to cleverly eradicate the Quarians.

The Lore of the Game states: The Geth were built as servant units with no military training. The Quarian military obviously had training (we see this in the Geth consensus). So how could the Quarian military have lost to the Geth?

Logical conclusion? The black & white perception of Rannoch must be wrong. There are nuances which aren't covered by this black & white perception, by this Saturday morning cartoon outlook. The Geth aren't an army of evil machines -- this isn't Transformers and the Geth aren't the Decepticons. The Geth were servants, and servants with nexgt to no armour. They wouldn't have had shields back then, either. So how did these vulnerable, untrained robots actually manage to chase a military force off of Rannoch.

Logical conclusion, once again? They had help. The Quarian civilians stood with the Geth against the Quarian military. This backs up my view that What Happened on Rannoch was a very nuanced affair, and that there was likely a civil war brewing between the Quarian civilians and their potentially despotic militaristic leaders all ready. The Geth were just something that the Quarian civilians could rally around. "Protect the Geth! They did no wrong! Why should the Geth die?" The Quarian civilians likely had more training in warfare and I suspect they most commonly used guerilla tactics versus military might.

The Geth observed what the Quarian civilians were doing, and the Geth were trained by Quarian civilians in the art of self defence. The Quarian civilians held out as long as they could, but when biological weapon bombardment began, the Geth were left on their own, and they had to put what they'd gained to use.

The long and short of it: My nuanced understanding of What Happened on Rannoch fits more with the evidence we have and have seen than the black & white position that Argolas had. If things really were so black & white, then there are too many questions. Again, like how the unarmoured Geth survived, where they got their weapons, who trained them, and so on.

A logical mind is capable of coming to these conclusions. This is where logic leads. When you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever remains, regardless of how strange, must be the truth. Deductive reasoning. The Geth could not have done this alone.

#370
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages
Auld Wolf you can use your head canon as much as you want. That does not make it any more than a severely deluded head canon.

#371
Morlath

Morlath
  • Members
  • 579 messages

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath it is mentioned by Tali, and in a book that the Geth killed all ships, diplomatic or otherwise


The question is and has always been "Was the Morning War justified or unjustified?"

The questions is NOT "Who committed the most atrocities in the Morning War?"

Everyone arguing about how the Geth deserved to be destroyed because of what they did DURING the war are doing a Minority Report and nothing else. You cannot and should not say that a species deserved to be destroyed by the acts they performed in saving themselves from destruction.

#372
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages
So the quarians dont deserve to die. Got it.

#373
Morlath

Morlath
  • Members
  • 579 messages

Steelcan wrote...

So the quarians dont deserve to die. Got it.


Ha. Ha.

#374
S.A.K

S.A.K
  • Members
  • 2 741 messages

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Does it really matter how they killed billions. What would be better, using WMDs or going house to house executing? And the Geth didn't stop there. They kept killing any organic they encountered for the next 300 years until Legion wanted help to deal with the Heretics.

Hard to believe how anyone with a brain could look at the Geth as *good guys" or even lives worth saving.


When the house to house example is being thrown around as fact to prove the Geth deserved to die in the first place, yes it matters.

Roughly 67,000 non-military British people died during WW2 but these 67,000 weren't killed by the enemy going house to house killing everyone they could. It was mostly caused by military bombings in an attempt to demoralise the country. The attrocities committed by rough military throughout history are morally more horrific than civilian causalties in military attacks and this is obvious by the many laws and decrees the U.N. look to make about what is and isn't appropiate in wartime.

And there is no evidence at all the Geth "kept killing any organic they encountered for the next 300 years until Legion wanted help to deal with the Heretics." In fact we are told that the Geth did not leave the Veil once the Morning War was over.

You're using guesses and opinions to justify the Geth being the "bad guys". I'm using game lore to show that the Geth where innocent up until the beginning of the war.

"Any ships that ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and
destroyed. While they prevented any contact by other races with
themselves, the geth monitored communications and the extranet."
That is straight from the wiki. This means they just shot anyone entering their space  without even considering whether they are armed. This also shows that organics had no reason to think Geth are non-hostile(because they are hostile and they didn't even allow organics to communicate with them) and gave the Quarians no other option but war to retake their worlds which the Geth were holding for no good reason. Then they joined the Reapers when the Quarians finally decided to take back their world. I don't see how any of this can make them the "good guys."

#375
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages

Morlath wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

So the quarians dont deserve to die. Got it.


Ha. Ha.

 well if we are discounting the war, what do they deserve extincyion for? I can say the geth deserve death for allying with the reapers, twice.