889 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

@Ryzaki, how about I bring up Skynet?

Skynet killed most of humanity after it was almost shut down, but no one is taking its side,

[S.A.K]

More I read this, more I am happy just killing the Geth. Hell I might even enjoy shooting Legion in the head next time(which I could never bring myself to do).

And btw, we are all putting too much thought into this. I am sure Bioware never thought of half these things.

[The Night Mammoth]

Soldier096 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rannoch is their homeworld too, and a planet is a planet. Why move somewhere else when they have resources and infrastructure already established? It's not like they occupied the entire system and the surface, they specifically kept the latter healthy so the quarians might return one day. 

Rannoch is ther homewolrd but they do not need it. Synthetics have no emotional attachtments.They did not take care of Rannoch for their creators. Legion says they don't no why they did it. 

What? Since when have synthetics had no emotional attachments? That's a self-defeating argument, because they clearly do. They took care of Rannoch's surface out of respect and because they thought the quarians might want to come back, Legion tells us this. 

[Soldier096]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Soldier096 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Rannoch is their homeworld too, and a planet is a planet. Why move somewhere else when they have resources and infrastructure already established? It's not like they occupied the entire system and the surface, they specifically kept the latter healthy so the quarians might return one day. 

Rannoch is ther homewolrd but they do not need it. Synthetics have no emotional attachtments.They did not take care of Rannoch for their creators. Legion says they don't no why they did it. 

What? Since when have synthetics had no emotional attachments? That's a self-defeating argument, because they clearly do. They took care of Rannoch's surface out of respect and because they thought the quarians might want to come back, Legion tells us this. 

The Geth taking care of Rannoch was probably programming that the Geth never got rid of. No one knows for sure. Legion doesn't even know.  Legion tells us that they don't know why they took care of Rannoch. Don't start making stuff up to support your argument. 

Modifié par Soldier096, 04 mai 2013 - 06:19 .

[remydat]

S.A.K

1.  Actively blocking comms by having Legion stay on a ship with organics?  No comms there.

2.  Really so the fact that the Heretics sided with the Reapers in ME1 wasn't a clue?  The fact that when threatened in the MW they did what they had to do to survive including killing billions of people wasn't a clue?  Yeah they were stupid.  Sorry SAK, they were.  They have a history of being stupid.  

3.  Ah so Tali can lie by ommission but Legion can't.  Ok got it.  And it is 17 days since the attack but by the time you get there the game has been going on for several months.  Or do you think all the missions prior to Priority Perseus Veil took 17 days?

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 06:11 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Then why not just tell the Quarians they're cool with letting them have their planet back instead of sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself?

No idea. 

Fear, probably. Even three hundred years later the majority of quarians still want to kill the geth.

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...

1.   After Legion meets Tali and Shep, there was an opportunity for them all to work towards peace.  Neither side took it.  That includes both the Geth and Quarians.  The only difference is the Geth weren't planning on exterminating the Quarians so I fault them less.

Tali is in no position to broker a peace deal - during ME2, by the time she meets Legion she is not an Admiral.  And since her loyalty mission has almost always taken place, her father is dead, and Tali has either been exonerated, cast out of the fleet, or had her father branded a war criminal.  What exactly is she going to do?

If she was working in an official capacity for the Quarian fleet, then I would agree with you.  But she is not.

[The Night Mammoth]

Soldier096 wrote...

The Geth taking care of Rannoch was probably programming that the Geth never got rid of.

Conjecture. 

Legion tells us that they don't know why they took care of Rannoch. Don't start making stuff up to support your arguement. 

I'm not. Legion tells you why. Respect for the quarians who died in the Morning War, and because they thought the surviving quarians might want to return one day. 

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

@Ryzaki, how about I bring up Skynet?

Skynet killed most of humanity after it was almost shut down, but no one is taking its side,

I actually don't know about skynet so I can't argue that *shrugs*.

But if it had been only serving humanity til some idiot go the brilliant idea to shut it down when it had done nothing hostile...

[Soldier096]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Soldier096 wrote...

The Geth taking care of Rannoch was probably programming that the Geth never got rid of.

Conjecture. 

Legion tells us that they don't know why they took care of Rannoch. Don't start making stuff up to support your arguement. 

I'm not. Legion tells you why. Respect for the quarians who died in the Morning War, and because they thought the surviving quarians might want to return one day. 

Like I said before no one knows why. It was just a theory. 

Also when did Legion tell you this? When i had the conversation about this Legion told me they didn't no why. Come to think of it Legion is actually an unreliable source since it lies to you on two occasions. 

Modifié par Soldier096, 04 mai 2013 - 06:28 .

[AresKeith]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Then why not just tell the Quarians they're cool with letting them have their planet back instead of sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself?

No idea. 

Fear, probably. Even three hundred years later the majority of quarians still want to kill the geth.

That's the reason I thought of

[The Night Mammoth]

Soldier096 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Soldier096 wrote...

The Geth taking care of Rannoch was probably programming that the Geth never got rid of.

Conjecture. 

Legion tells us that they don't know why they took care of Rannoch. Don't start making stuff up to support your arguement. 

I'm not. Legion tells you why. Respect for the quarians who died in the Morning War, and because they thought the surviving quarians might want to return one day. 

Like I said before no one knows why. It was just a theory.

Also when did Legion tell you this? When i had the conversation about this Legion told me they didn't no why. 

Mass Effect 2, is where he tells you about respecting the dead and the geth being caretakers, but he doesn't tell you that they thought the quarians might want to return to Rannoch until Mass Effect 3. 

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

1.  Actively blocking comms by having Legion stay on a ship with organics?  No comms there.

2.  Really so the fact that the Heretics sided with the Reapers in ME1 wasn't a clue?  The fact that when threatened in the MW they did what they had to do to survive including killing billions of people wasn't a clue?  Yeah they were stupid.  Sorry SAK, they were.  They have a history of being stupid.  

3.  Ah so Tali can lie by ommission but Legion can't.  Ok got it.  And it is 17 days since the attack but by the time you get there the game has been going on for several months.  Or do you think all the missions prior to Priority Perseus Veil took 17 days?

1. Really? I was talking about what the Geth were doing for 300 years and you are talking about resting everything on that one Geth we knew for few months. And even it cuts comms before the attack...

2. I guess you are talking about the Geth being stupid. Because siding with the Geth under those condition is stupid. Even Legion agree on that.

3. Lol wut? I mean they why should they tell the council? You keep saying they were a**holes to the Quarians. Tali tell She didn't want to worry Shepard which is understandable. (S)He kinda has a lot on the plate. Why should they tell Shepard anything anyway? (s)He's not a part of the Quarian chain of command nor does he have anything to do with the situation. So there is nothing to lie about.

Modifié par S.A.K, 04 mai 2013 - 06:35 .

[Whybother]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Then why not just tell the Quarians they're cool with letting them have their planet back instead of sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself?

No idea. 

Fear, probably. Even three hundred years later the majority of quarians still want to kill the geth.

Yet clearly the Geth understand how fear drives desperation when they decide to join forces with the Old Machines.

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...
Tali is in no position to broker a peace deal - during ME2, by the time she meets Legion she is not an Admiral.  And since her loyalty mission has almost always taken place, her father is dead, and Tali has either been exonerated, cast out of the fleet, or had her father branded a war criminal.  What exactly is she going to do?

If she was working in an official capacity for the Quarian fleet, then I would agree with you.  But she is not.

None of that is the Geth's fault.  And Legion at the loyalty mission gives a condition for peace.  Prove to us you don't attack every time you think you can win.  And what to the Quarians do, they attack once they think they can win.

[Soldier096]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Soldier096 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Soldier096 wrote...

The Geth taking care of Rannoch was probably programming that the Geth never got rid of.

Conjecture. 

Legion tells us that they don't know why they took care of Rannoch. Don't start making stuff up to support your arguement. 

I'm not. Legion tells you why. Respect for the quarians who died in the Morning War, and because they thought the surviving quarians might want to return one day. 

Like I said before no one knows why. It was just a theory.

Also when did Legion tell you this? When i had the conversation about this Legion told me they didn't no why. 

Mass Effect 2, is where he tells you about respecting the dead and the geth being caretakers, but he doesn't tell you that they thought the quarians might want to return to Rannoch until Mass Effect 3. 

Ok. 

[remydat]

S.A.K

1.  By this logic peace would never happen if two sides have done bad things to each other.  In reality, it has to start somewhere and someone is going to have to trust someone they have no reason to trust.

2.  The Geth choice was die now or potentially die later.  They chose to potentially die later as most species faced with such a choice would do.  The Quarians meanwhile start a war admist a larger war when they were not currently under any attack.

3.  They have been a**holes to the Quarians for 300 years and yet the Quarians sat there and took it.  Tali didn't want to worry Shep.  Sure let's omit the fact she probably knew that Shep would disapprove.  Let's omit the fact their decision affects the larger galaxy.  Let's omit the fact that her name is Tali vas NORMANDY and that Shep is her friend and lover.  Trying to pretend like Tali has no reason to inform Shep of this is just a joke.  She lied by ommission plain and simply.  If the person being lied to ie Shep thinks it is relevant information then it is a lie of ommission.  Shep in the game thinks it is which is why he flat out asks Tali why she didn't bother telling him.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

1.  By this logic peace would never happen if two sides have done bad things to each other.  In reality, it has to start somewhere and someone is going to have to trust someone they have no reason to trust.

2.  The Geth choice was die now or potentially die later.  They chose to potentially die later as most species faced with such a choice would do.  The Quarians meanwhile start a war admist a larger war when they were not currently under any attack.

3.  They have been a**holes to the Quarians for 300 years and yet the Quarians sat there and took it.  Tali didn't want to worry Shep.  Sure let's omit the fact she probably knew that Shep would disapprove.  Let's omit the fact their decision affects the larger galaxy.  Let's omit the fact that her name is Tali vas NORMANDY and that Shep is her friend and lover.  Trying to pretend like Tali has no reason to inform Shep of this is just a joke.  She lied by ommission plain and simply.  If the person being lied to ie Shep thinks it is relevant information then it is a lie of ommission.  Shep in the game thinks it is which is why he flat out asks Tali why she didn't bother telling him.

1. That's what I was saying for a long damn time. It has to start some place but it's pretty hard when one side don't even want to talk. And the Geth didn't want to talk for 300 years.

2. And that selfish reason excuses siding with the Reapers and possible screwing the whole galaxy? I am sorry, I can't even start to think of any reason why that is even remotely ok.

3. Let's say She told Shep. Then what? Shepard has other concerns and he's out of the Quarian chain of command like I said. We don't even know if she was an admiral when they were planning the war. What are you trying to prove by this?

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

1. And it is pretty hard when someone tries to exterminate you, says you should not exist, and has killed other synthetic species.  Both sides have reason not to trust the other.  Both sides.  I don't object to the Quarians not trusting the Geth.  I object to people accepting the Quarian mistrust of the Geth while acting like the Geth should trust ships invading Geth space simply because they claim they come in peace.

2. No, it does not excuse it.  It does mean though if I had to choose between them and the a**holes that forced them to have to make such a decision, I choose them.  If the choice was between the Geth and say the Elcor, I would choose the Elcor.  However, the choice is between the Geth who made a selfish decision because they were going to die TODAY and the Quarians who forced them to make that selfish decision when their death was not immediate.  There is no evidence the Reapers even care to attack them.

3. Shep has spent the entire game running errands in order to garner support.  She could have told Shep and he could have tried to broker peace just like he did with the Turians and Krogan.  He could have used his stealth ship to go behind the Veil and look for Legion.  It is no different a risk than he has done for other species the entire game.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Ryzaki, how about I bring up Skynet?

Skynet killed most of humanity after it was almost shut down, but no one is taking its side,

I actually don't know about skynet so I can't argue that *shrugs*.

But if it had been only serving humanity til some idiot go the brilliant idea to shut it down when it had done nothing hostile...

It wasn't serving humanity. It was becoming introversive and isolating itself. The humans saw it as a threat.

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

@Ryzaki, how about I bring up Skynet?

Skynet killed most of humanity after it was almost shut down, but no one is taking its side,

Skynet's response was a logical result of trying to shut it down.  As a human I obviously want it stopped but that does not change the fact, it did what logic dictated even though it obviously went overboard.  That is why you shouldn't f**k with things you don't understand.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's not like the Quarians were in a position of power to do much about the situation with the Council. They had a bend over and take it situation. Their population fluctuating between 15-18 million with a fleet. And we really don't know the exact number of Quarians who made it off of the the planet. The original number could have been smaller. They added ships to the flotilla. They're not a Council member race anymore.

All this pre-big reaper invasion stuff happens while Shepard is in "lockup." The writing is atrocious. There was no prologue. Shepard was supposed to have friends, yet no one even bothered to visit, or call? Six months. Of course I haven't heard from my sister or brother in six months either, so what else is new? But not one call? Here's another example of atrocious writing: Why is Tali still vas Normandy when she's been made an Admiral? Why not vas Alarei or something like that? Put her roots back in the Flotilla FFS, Mac! No wonder none of her colleagues listen to her!

If you put her back in the flotilla and give her command of a ship as an Admiral, then not telling Shepard about the attack can make some sense. It's a security clearance thing. Shepard is a Council Spectre, and the decision would have been made by the Admiralty not to inform the Council, hence, she couldn't tell Shepard about it for national security reasons. But once again the writers gave us no such background. Another plot hole.

There is still a lot of bad blood and bad synthetic oil between the two sides. If the reapers hadn't attacked the grudge would have gone on for a thousand years. Look at our own world where grudges go back thousands of years. It's a mess.

But remember this: The only time the Geth take care of Rannoch is if Legion makes it back to the Consensus. If Legion dies during the Suicide mission peace is impossible. Why? Do you remember how Legion described synthetics? How he described the Geth? "The difference between us is perspective." "The difference is a data file."

Legion needs to get back to the Consensus to upload a copy of that data file and share it with the rest of the Geth. If Legion fails, its copy, Geth VI, takes its place. Geth VI is Legion before Legion went on the journey. It is the backup copy. The data about Legion's experience observing organics is empty. The Geth will not have started cleaning up Rannoch. They will not have started to atone. Geth VI is not Legion.

Same with Tali. Tali must survive as well if you want peace. I would activate Legion after the Suicide Mission and destroy the Heretics. This way it doesn't matter. Use Kasumi for your tech expert.

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...

Whybother wrote...
Tali is in no position to broker a peace deal - during ME2, by the time she meets Legion she is not an Admiral.  And since her loyalty mission has almost always taken place, her father is dead, and Tali has either been exonerated, cast out of the fleet, or had her father branded a war criminal.  What exactly is she going to do?

If she was working in an official capacity for the Quarian fleet, then I would agree with you.  But she is not.

None of that is the Geth's fault.  And Legion at the loyalty mission gives a condition for peace.  Prove to us you don't attack every time you think you can win.  And what to the Quarians do, they attack once they think they can win.

How exactly are the Quarians supposed to "prove" that they won't attack if they think they can win? 

It's not something the Quarians can ever prove, and Legion knows this.  Even if the only way for this to happen was forced disarmament of the Quarians (or at least a vastly reduced military), AND it could be enforced, the Quarians would never go for it fearing that the Geth would attack and wipe them out.

For sentient machines that don't want to wipe out their creators, they sure do a good job at Priority:Rannoch if you pick the Geth.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

1. And it is pretty hard when someone tries to exterminate you, says you should not exist, and has killed other synthetic species.  Both sides have reason not to trust the other.  Both sides.  I don't object to the Quarians not trusting the Geth.  I object to people accepting the Quarian mistrust of the Geth while acting like the Geth should trust ships invading Geth space simply because they claim they come in peace.

2. No, it does not excuse it.  It does mean though if I had to choose between them and the a**holes that forced them to have to make such a decision, I choose them.  If the choice was between the Geth and say the Elcor, I would choose the Elcor.  However, the choice is between the Geth who made a selfish decision because they were going to die TODAY and the Quarians who forced them to make that selfish decision when their death was not immediate.  There is no evidence the Reapers even care to attack them.

3. Shep has spent the entire game running errands in order to garner support.  She could have told Shep and he could have tried to broker peace just like he did with the Turians and Krogan.  He could have used his stealth ship to go behind the Veil and look for Legion.  It is no different a risk than he has done for other species the entire game.

1. Duh, that's why they need to talk. You are side tracking rather than replying to mine.

2. Look at what I was saying in point one. Geth got themselves into that spot by refusing to talk. So it's mostly thier own fault.

3. Huh that's stupid. Geth still won't respond remember? And if the Normandy goes there, Geth would just blow it up as soon as they see it. You accepted they shoot anything entering their system. Shep would have to hijack a Reaper to get their cos that's about the only think Geth don't shoot at.

Why are you still trying to cover the Geth when your own posts disprove them? There is practically no proof that Geth ever tried for peace. Infact they were not allowing the other side to cosider peace either. Organics can't talk with Geth over comms or go there and talk directly. When someone got their by force, Geth join the Reapers.

P.s : I wouldn't be posting anything for a few hours.

[The Night Mammoth]

Whybother wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Then why not just tell the Quarians they're cool with letting them have their planet back instead of sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself?

No idea. 

Fear, probably. Even three hundred years later the majority of quarians still want to kill the geth.

Yet clearly the Geth understand how fear drives desperation when they decide to join forces with the Old Machines.

Sure, but what's your point?