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[Auld Wulf]

Ryzaki wrote...

[Comparing the Geth to the Reapers.] Horrible comparison.

Bolded text is mine. To give context to what Ry was responding to.

That's the inherent, stubborn, intentional stupidity of all this, isn't it?

I Say: Look at the lore. The lore has all the answers. The Geth were just the fall guys for something bigger and far, far more terrifying that happened on Rannoch. We don't know what that is, but there's evidence to support that the Morning War was a very nuanced thing that involved more than just the Geth killing Quarians.

The Lore Says: The Geth are servile units who were created to serve and thus only had programming regarding servitutde, and couldn't even rid themselves of that programming for over hundreds of years. The Consensus shows them to be confused, as the war exists outside of their parameters. For them to even know what a "gun" is, they'd need to learn from an outside source. They were simply just a species of Wall-Es up until [some entity] militarised them -- before that they were just butler/farming robots who could be knocked over by a strong gust of wind. There's no way that farming/butler robots could have defeated a wall trained Quarian military without outside help from [some entity].

The Anti-Geth Trolls Scream: Nuh-uh! They're eeeevil robots! Like the Decepticons or something! Evil robots! And they invaded Rannoch with their hundreds of fleets of powerful deathships to euthanise all Quarian life; What with their hi-tech doom rays and their specifically built bio-weapons! They killed billions! Evil robots! Just like Decepticons! Or... the Reapers! Ooooh~oooh!

And so it goes, around and around. I stopped taking it seriously a while back. You can't have a sane debate with people who really don't care about the story being told.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 04 mai 2013 - 08:41 .

[Ryzaki]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Ryzaki, how about I bring up Skynet?

Skynet killed most of humanity after it was almost shut down, but no one is taking its side,

I actually don't know about skynet so I can't argue that *shrugs*.

But if it had been only serving humanity til some idiot go the brilliant idea to shut it down when it had done nothing hostile...

It wasn't serving humanity. It was becoming introversive and isolating itself. The humans saw it as a threat.

Did it do anything hostile? Being introverted and isolated isn't hostile.

See I could argue this alot better if I knew WTF Skynet was.

[Auld Wulf]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Or in other words, they weren't children by any stretch of the imagination. 

And at least half of that list is either wrong, or simple conjecture.

First Statement: I don't understand how X can be X, therefore X cannot be X. Totally not an argument from ignorance. No Sir!

Response: That's both ignorant and arrogant. At the same time. It's like arguing with Homer Simpson. Why aren't they children? Why can't they be perceived as children? You're saying that because they're synthetic they can't actually go through a phase of emotional and intellectual immaturity that is, essentially, childhood? That's as ignorant as ignorant gets, especially when they come across as being childlike in the Geth consensus.

Second Statement: I'm going to say that X amount of my opponent's argument is irrelevant because shut up.

Response: So your argument that I'm actually wrong or that my statements are conjecture is, essentially, 'because shut up?' You don't even bother to explain? You just want me to shut up and get the heck out of here, so that you won't have to deal with thinking about the validity of my opinion? Great. Just great. Good job.

Yup. My opponents are such fantastic people. Again, BSN is no NationStates.

There's just no intellectuality there, it's more like thugs trying to sound pseudo-intellectual, and even that's not very ocnvincing. Those are thuggish comments, designed to try to scare someone into shutting up, it's just a brute-force approach to an argument. Nothing more than a slightly more eloquent take on "You're wrong because shut up! La la la la la! Not listening!" You can't even be bothered to hide this by coming up with some cockamamie reasoning to back this up.

It just comes off as obnoxious trolling for the sake of trolling.

How I long for some intellectual repartees, but almost all of the truly insightful people here I actually agree with. The rest are just thugs thinking themselves to be clever wordsmiths, fencing with infallible arguments and defences of iron logic. But the truth is very ironic.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 04 mai 2013 - 08:59 .

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...

How exactly are the Quarians supposed to "prove" that they won't attack if they think they can win? 

It's not something the Quarians can ever prove, and Legion knows this.  Even if the only way for this to happen was forced disarmament of the Quarians (or at least a vastly reduced military), AND it could be enforced, the Quarians would never go for it fearing that the Geth would attack and wipe them out.

For sentient machines that don't want to wipe out their creators, they sure do a good job at Priority:Rannoch if you pick the Geth.

If you pick the Geth, the Quarians are killed because they refuse to stop shooting at Geth who are not firing back despite being told to do so by Tali.  So when the upload is completed, the Geth do what anyone being shot at does, they shoot back. 

In the game if you convince the Quarians to stop shooting, the Geth stop.  They do so despite being able to win 100% because they have the RC.  The Quarians are at their mercy and the Geth allow them to live and then go out of their way to help them rebuild.

Finally, in the option where you pick the Quarians, once again, the Geth are disabled and not shooting.  You then hear over the radio, the Geth are fleeing.  At that point, the battle is won and Rannoch is theirs.  Gherel orders the fleeing Geth slaughtered.  

So what do you gather from the above?  I gather that the Geth have no interest in killing Quarians provided the Quarians are not actively trying to kill them.  I gather that when the Quarians think they can win and when the Geth are fleeing, the Quarians hunt them down and kill them.  I gather when the Geth think they can win with RC and the enemy is not firing at them, they in fact prove they have no problem with peace because they stand down.

So back to your question.  How do the Quarians prove they don't attack anytime they can win?  They have a weapon that disables the Geth so they can shoot them while they are defenseless.  Giving a sample of that weapon to the Geth via Legion and saying we think we can win with this but simply want to talk peace would have gone a long way in providing data.  Of course, you will respond that why should they trust the Geth and I will tell you they shouldn't.  It is not about trust.  It is about whether you want to take a chance on peace or not. 

I already know the Geth don't exterminate the Quarians when they think they can win because they did not kill them all at the end of the MW when they could have and they do not kill them all once they have the upload when they could have.  To this day, I have no proof the Quarians would do the same because the only time peace is achieved is when Shep tells the Quarians the Geth are going to come back online and wipe them out ie he tells them they can't win.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 09:01 .

[remydat]

S.A.K

1. Yes but that is a hard sell until Shep.  He changes the dynamic.

2. But they didn't refuse to talk.  Post Shep, they were not only talking they were living with organics on Shep's ship.  So your statement is misleading.  Prior to Shep, there was no avenue available for them to talk to each other because neither side trusted each other.  Shep changes that.  You can either sit there and cry about 300 years or you can recognize that Shep and Tali's relationship as squad mates with Legion changed things.

3.  Again, you are confused.  I accepted they have no reason to trust organics prior to Shep.  Legion makes clear the Geth view Shep as different so much so they specifically send Legion to find him.  So your assertion they would shoot the Normandy down (let's ignore it is a stealth ship) is based on outdated information ie the previous 300 years prior to Shep.  Since Shep is on the Normandy and Legion knows this since he lived with Shep on the Normandy for several months, it is absurd to suggest the Geth will shoot down the one organic they recognize is different and the one organic they respect due to his taking down the Heretics and Old Machines so much so that Legion was sent as the first True Geth outside of the PV to find him.  But sure let's ignore that crucial difference from the previous 300 years, lol.

So there seems to be a fundamental confusion.  Apparently you are ignoring all the events in ME2 that make it perfectly clear that Legion and the Geth view Shep as different from the other flawed organics which was the whole point they sent Legion to find him.  There is your avenue for peace that previously did not exist.  The previous 300 years are irrelevant because Shep renders them irrelevant the minute he takes down the Heretics and the Old Machines earning the Geth's respect and trust in the process.  This is stated clearly in ME2.

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 09:18 .

[billy the squid]

S.A.K wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...
Why shouldn't the Geth want to kill the Quarians?

Except they don't, Legion tells you this.

And he also says they don't trust the creators. And he's proved exactly right, the Quarians species aggressive irrational drive them to attack the Geth. The Geth, react accordingly once they are threatened, again. 

It is aggressive only because Geth have given them no choice. It's completely rational to take back their world. Geth were irrational in holding the Quarian worlds and not expecting Quarians to try and take them back. Geth logic don't seem to be working very well.

They had 300 years to secure a new world, so they choose now, of all times to go back and pick a fight with the Geth, when it was the Quarians who tried to wipe them out in the first place. I don't a see gaping hole in that logic. Hence they are utterly irrational and ruled by sentiment. 

Why would the Geth ever allow a hostile species into their home systems to set up shop, so they can attack them again, like they did the first time.

The Quarians had their chance, botched it and lost their worlds. Why would the Geth ever give them back? "But they're not using them, so they should let the Quarians back in" Riiiiiight, letting the species that tried to wipe you out back in to rebuild on your doorstep is what any rational sentient species does. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 04 mai 2013 - 09:38 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Or in other words, they weren't children by any stretch of the imagination. 

And at least half of that list is either wrong, or simple conjecture.

First Statement: I don't understand how X can be X, therefore X cannot be X. Totally not an argument from ignorance. No Sir!

Response: That's both ignorant and arrogant. At the same time. It's like arguing with Homer Simpson. Why aren't they children? Why can't they be perceived as children? You're saying that because they're synthetic they can't actually go through a phase of emotional and intellectual immaturity that is, essentially, childhood? That's as ignorant as ignorant gets, especially when they come across as being childlike in the Geth consensus.

Not an argument from ignorance, no. I simply made an assertion, I had my reasons, I just declined to provide them at the time. Sorry. 

They weren't children. They were robots. VI's, they didn't learn, they didn't have the capacity for emotion, for judgement not bound by their programming. Beneath animals in levels of sentience. The quarians weren't bad parents for treating non-sentient machines for what they were. 

The Morning War changed things. 

Second Statement: I'm going to say that X amount of my opponent's argument is irrelevant because shut up.

Response: So your argument that I'm actually wrong or that my statements are conjecture is, essentially, 'because shut up?' You don't even bother to explain? You just want me to shut up and get the heck out of here, so that you won't have to deal with thinking about the validity of my opinion? Great. Just great. Good job.

Yup. My opponents are such fantastic people. Again, BSN is no NationStates.


There's just no intellectuality there, it's more like thugs trying to sound pseudo-intellectual, and even that's not very ocnvincing. Those are thuggish comments, designed to try to scare someone into shutting up, it's just a brute-force approach to an argument. Nothing more than a slightly more eloquent take on "You're wrong because shut up! La la la la la! Not listening!" You can't even be bothered to hide this by coming up with some cockamamie reasoning to back this up.

It just comes off as obnoxious trolling for the sake of trolling.

How I long for some intellectual repartees, but almost all of the truly insightful people here I actually agree with. The rest are just thugs thinking themselves to be clever wordsmiths, fencing with infallible arguments and defences of iron logic. But the truth is very ironic.

Normally I'd apologise, but sometimes people obviously care far too much about one-upping other people that they do... this, so I don't think I will. You don't deserve it. I'm not really going dignify most of that with a response, the irony is far too much. 

I'll amend my statement though. Most of what you said wasn't just conjecture, or wrong, it was meaningless hyperbole as well.

The quarians taught them to kill anyone they didn't like? When? How?

Introduced them to race hate, murder, and abuse? When did that happen? Any proof? When have the geth ever murdered, abused, or shown racial hatred?

(The heretics actually showed some of those traits, but didn't they have a fantastic influence?)

Refused to acknowledge their growing sentience? How do you know it was a gradual process? Don't you remember the geth consensus mission, which told us of the large numbers of quarians which supported the geth?

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 04 mai 2013 - 09:42 .

[billy the squid]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

We've told you a dozen times, they TRIED to colonise a world but the Council forced them off.

And there's nothing stopping the Geth from relocating to somewhere safer.

They squatted, on a world then claimed colonisation rights on it, despite it already being claimed by another species. That's why they were denied, Elcor, I think.

Well the Persus Veil, is perfect for them. The Veil obstructs observation by the council species, it seperates them from the Terminus systems and they are not surrounded by any other system, their position is on the edge of the galactic plane. They're isolated, which is exactly what they want. They took the worlds, and create a Dyson sphere as the next step in their civilisation. Like any sentient species, why have a load of hostile belligerant pirates make themselves at home in what is now their, the Geth's system.

Modifié par billy the squid, 04 mai 2013 - 10:08 .

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

We've told you a dozen times, they TRIED to colonise a world but the Council forced them off.

And there's nothing stopping the Geth from relocating to somewhere safer.

Sounds like they should take that up with the Council and not the Geth.  Who do you expect to treat you with compassion?  The enemy you tried to exterminate or the ally that is suppose to be your friend?

[billy the squid]

remydat wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

We've told you a dozen times, they TRIED to colonise a world but the Council forced them off.

And there's nothing stopping the Geth from relocating to somewhere safer.

Sounds like they should take that up with the Council and not the Geth.  Who do you expect to treat you with compassion?  The enemy you tried to exterminate or the ally that is suppose to be your friend?

Not just that, but they were squating on it, then claimed it. the Quarians seem to have a habit of disregarding intergalactic law. 

Kind of like creating the Geth. 

[Morlath]

Steelcan wrote...

I hold them to the same standards as organics. They went way overkill on the quarians, murdering billions, they then violently isolated themselves and did nothing to dispel their aura of fear and brutality, they then let the heretics leave and attack organics and did nothing to stop them, they only got involved because the heretics turned on them, then they allied with the Reapers after cutting off communication between Legion and Tali. They show no remorse for killing the quarians and have no issues with the new war. Yet despite that people defend them.

The quarians acted within Council laws regarding AI's and are vilified through put the galaxy as thieves and vagrants.
When the Reapers show up, they need a world to offload civilians so they can help fight the war, Rannoch is really the only candidate. And despite all this, there is still opposition to the war, but the Reaper situation forces their hand. And you people want to kill them all.

The Geth isolated themselves and made no sign that they were at war or indeed wanting a war with organics post-Morning War. Yes, they killed anyone entering their space but they weren't sending out fleets to attack anyone. It was very obviously a "leave us alone and we'll leave you alone" situation.

Let me ask you this. If a group of people (of any species) decide that they beleive a right wing fanatic group, does anyone have the right to kill them for that belief? Until that group actually makes an attack on someone, why should they be denied their right to believe?

The Heretics thought something different to the other Geth. I repeat my earlier statement, the Heretics were the Geth version of Cerberus and you cannot judge the entire human species on Cerburus' actions alone nor does anyone have the right to kill anyone willing to join Cerberus just because they agree with the group's ideology. The other Geth had no moral right to kill their own kind simply because they believed themselves greater than organics.

The Geth are then attacked by the Quarians because the Quarians decide that it's now time to take back their homeworld. As far as the Quarians are concerned there was never a cease-fire/peace between the two species (and in fact it's obvious by some of their attitudes that they don't even consider Geth to be a sentient species to begin with). The Geth, as all life forms would do in the same situation, panicked and looked for a solution that would save themselves from annihilation. In the Geth's situation this is allying themselves with the Reapers. In another species' place it might be using a WMD or even creating the Genophage.

It's not something one can agree on as a moral choice but something one can understand from a "we want to live" standpoint.

As far as the Quarians following Council rules on AI production, Tali admits they skirted the edges of the law and they knew it. They wanted to build a VI system of units that were as smart as possible without crossing over into AI territory and messed up.

Did the Quarians deserve to be wiped out? No.
Did the Geth? No.
Did they both do horrific things to each other? Yes.
Was the Quarian obsession with the Geth the cause for the second Quarian-Geth war and the potential ending of one species? Absolutely.

[Steelcan]

@Morlath, you've never played with the Geth VI have you?

And for the heretic geth, the geth had an obligation t kill the heretics because they were a threat to both the geth and organics, but they did nothing.

[Argolas]

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, you've never played with the Geth VI have you?

And for the heretic geth, the geth had an obligation t kill the heretics because they were a threat to both the geth and organics, but they did nothing.

Because they obviously don't really care for organics.

The Quarians desperately need Rannoch? Don't care. We don't have the right to spy on organics and spread random lies about things they care about? Doesn't matter, we're curious. Those heretics are extremists that want to exterminate all organic life? As long as they don't attack us, don't care. Why would we tell anyone about it or even stop them? It's only organic life after all. Those Reapers aim for galactic annihilation? As long as they are useful to us, an alliance is fine.

[Morlath]

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, you've never played with the Geth VI have you?

And for the heretic geth, the geth had an obligation t kill the heretics because they were a threat to both the geth and organics, but they did nothing.

I have in my renegade plays.

What obligation? The Geth have put themselves outside of the other galaxy races, true isolationists. I agree there is an obligation to stop the Heretics IF the Geth in general were friends/allies with the organics but this isn't the case.

[Argolas]

Morlath wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, you've never played with the Geth VI have you?

And for the heretic geth, the geth had an obligation t kill the heretics because they were a threat to both the geth and organics, but they did nothing.

I have in my renegade plays.

What obligation? The Geth have put themselves outside of the other galaxy races, true isolationists. I agree there is an obligation to stop the Heretics IF the Geth in general were friends/allies with the organics but this isn't the case.

You can't just sit on somebody else's home and be isolationists. If they were serious about that, they had built their Dyson sphere somewhere where organics would not want to go, like where the heretic station from ME2 is.

[billy the squid]

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, you've never played with the Geth VI have you?

And for the heretic geth, the geth had an obligation t kill the heretics because they were a threat to both the geth and organics, but they did nothing.

That's just stupid.

The Geth VI doesn't have Legion's perspective of organic species outside the veil. So it acts in the was that's logic for the Geth when attacked by a hostile force, end the threat.

So Cerberus is a threat to Humans and other species, the Alliance has an obligation to kill their operatives and destroy the organisation, but they do nothing.

Talking to Legion at the station makes it perfectly clear that the real Geth don't understand why the Heretics are hostile, he asks shepard where did they go wrong and why they were so different. So much for having an obligation, when the Geth didn't understand the threat in the first place. 

[Steelcan]

 +1 for Argolas

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...

You can't just sit on somebody else's home and be isolationists. If they were serious about that, they had built their Dyson sphere somewhere where organics would not want to go, like where the heretic station from ME2 is.

I can't remember where it's written but there is a mention of the Geth's attempting this (I think it's in a codex entry). But even if this wasn't the case, why should they give up the planet?

Race A are the minorities within a country and go to war with the majority Race B. Race A wins, makes Race B leave and takes over the country. They decide they want to be isolationsts. The war was between the two Races and no one else, no (obvious) alliance treaties were between Race B and anyone else. At no point in time will Race A just decide to give up the country because it "wasn't theirs to begin with".

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

You can't just sit on somebody else's home and be isolationists. If they were serious about that, they had built their Dyson sphere somewhere where organics would not want to go, like where the heretic station from ME2 is.

You can when it is your home too and they don't want to be good neighbors.  The Geth did not ask to be created.  They did not ask to be viciously attacked for existing. 

Saying the Geth have to pick up and leave Rannoch to appease the organics who tried to exterminate them is like telling African Americans to go back to Africa once slavery ended so that the people that enslaved them wouldn't have to suffer the indignity of their existence.

[billy the squid]

Argolas wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Morlath, you've never played with the Geth VI have you?

And for the heretic geth, the geth had an obligation t kill the heretics because they were a threat to both the geth and organics, but they did nothing.

I have in my renegade plays.

What obligation? The Geth have put themselves outside of the other galaxy races, true isolationists. I agree there is an obligation to stop the Heretics IF the Geth in general were friends/allies with the organics but this isn't the case.

You can't just sit on somebody else's home and be isolationists. If they were serious about that, they had built their Dyson sphere somewhere where organics would not want to go, like where the heretic station from ME2 is.

Somebody else's you mean the one's that lost it and got kicked out. Yep, build a huge structure outside the Persus Veil where every Species can look at what you're up to. Fool proof plan. No way the Quarians would attack or the council would intercede because the Geth are moving outside the Veil. 

I see a great deal of "well why didn't the Geth move" Why would they? Considering every other species is hostile to a species of AI, why would the move and risk a fight with another species? The Quarians lost their systems because they were stupid and got kicked out. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 04 mai 2013 - 11:25 .

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

I can't remember where it's written but there is a mention of the Geth's attempting this (I think it's in a codex entry). But even if this wasn't the case, why should they give up the planet?

Race A are the minorities within a country and go to war with the majority Race B. Race A wins, makes Race B leave and takes over the country. They decide they want to be isolationsts. The war was between the two Races and no one else, no (obvious) alliance treaties were between Race B and anyone else. At no point in time will Race A just decide to give up the country because it "wasn't theirs to begin with".

I can't wait until all these give back Rannoch folks petition all Americans with European descent to give back America to Native Americans.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

Morlath wrote...

I can't remember where it's written but there is a mention of the Geth's attempting this (I think it's in a codex entry). But even if this wasn't the case, why should they give up the planet?

Race A are the minorities within a country and go to war with the majority Race B. Race A wins, makes Race B leave and takes over the country. They decide they want to be isolationsts. The war was between the two Races and no one else, no (obvious) alliance treaties were between Race B and anyone else. At no point in time will Race A just decide to give up the country because it "wasn't theirs to begin with".

I can't wait until all these give back Rannoch folks petition all Americans with European descent to give back America to Native Americans.

Ah but don't you see? It's because the Geth are synthetics. Sythentics are the lowest of the low and not even worth respect nor are they really sentient.

[Argolas]

The Council won't interfere as long as the Geth stay out of Council space. The Quarians wouldn't risk their precious ships for a attack on a Geth station in the middle of nowhere.

The Quarians have a right for Rannoch since it's the only planet that could support them. The Quarians who lost it are all long dead. What right do the Geth have to claim it? The Geth could live anywhere. What does "home" mean to a synthetic that has no sentimental attachment?

The heretics could leave and build their station in peace. Neither the Quarians nor the council even noticed, and even if they had, they hadn't interfered because they don't start a war for no reason. The Quarians had reason: The reapers were coming. They desperately needed Rannoch and they needed it now. The migrant fleet consists of countless ships of which it is a miracle that they even hold together. A reaper attack on the migrant fleet would mean extermination.

EDIT: I laugh at your comparison. The Americans who took America away from the natives are all long dead. The Geth who took Rannoch away from the Quarians are still the same (although the Quarians who wronged the Geth are dead by now). Also, those Americans can't simply leave. The Geth could. Rannoch doesn't offer them anything they wouldn't have elsewhere, the Geth live on space stations anyway.

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 11:37 .