889 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

It is not the only planet that can support them. The council simply refuses to allow them to settle another planet in council space that could.

And they lost their right to that planet when they could not live peacefully on it with the Geth who had served them faithfully. They can earn that right back when they stop trying to kill the Geth which they do when they stand down on Rannoch.

Ah, so because the people that took America are dead, it means you get to keep their ill gotten land.  And the people that took America and their descendants can go back to Europe where they came from. 

I guess to make this easy.  At what point in history would you have agreed with the idea of Europeans giving back America to the Native Americans and going back to Europe?  So if we were in 1700 AD, would you agree they should give it back then?

And just so we are clear.  Are you in agreement that the Geth created after the MW get to keep Rannoch since they are not the ones who won it?  So only the Geth alive at the MW need to vacate Rannoch correct?

Modifié par remydat, 04 mai 2013 - 11:46 .

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

It is not the only planet that can support them. The council simply refuses to allow them to settle another planet in council space that could.

And they lost their right to that planet when they could not live peacefully on it with the Geth who had served them faithfully. They can earn that right back when they stop trying to kill the Geth which they do when they stand down on Rannoch.

The Quarians would need generations of gene therapy, it would take centuries. They don't have that time. They need a planet where they can stay without having to deal with too big issues and eat the local plants so their civilians don't depend on the fleet which is vulnerable and also needed to fight the reapers.

The Geth were hostile towards any organic before- not only heretics. May I remind you of Haestrom? A small quarian squad lands peacefully on an empty planet in Geth space, a Geth patrol sees them- and shoots at sight.

Modifié par Argolas, 04 mai 2013 - 11:46 .

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

The Quarians would need generations of gene therapy, it would take centuries. They don't have that time. They need a planet where they can stay without having to deal with too big issues and eat the local plants so their civilians don't depend on the fleet which is vulnerable and also needed to fight the reapers.

The Geth were hostile towards any organic before- not only heretics. May I remind you of Haestrom? A small quarian squad lands peacefully on an empty planet in Geth space, a Geth patrol sees them- and shoots at sight.

And they would have had centuries if their Council friends had allowed them to settle hundreds of years ago.  Great friends they have don't you think?

So if a small group of Al Qaeda land in America, the U.S. will leave them be?  What part of the Quarians trying to exterminate them and the Geth having a right to protect their space is lost on organics?

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Quarians would need generations of gene therapy, it would take centuries. They don't have that time. They need a planet where they can stay without having to deal with too big issues and eat the local plants so their civilians don't depend on the fleet which is vulnerable and also needed to fight the reapers.

The Geth were hostile towards any organic before- not only heretics. May I remind you of Haestrom? A small quarian squad lands peacefully on an empty planet in Geth space, a Geth patrol sees them- and shoots at sight.

And they would have had centuries if their Council friends had allowed them to settle hundreds of years ago.  Great friends they have don't you think?

So if a small group of Al Qaeda land in America, the U.S. will leave them be?  What part of the Quarians trying to exterminate them and the Geth having a right to protect their space is lost on organics?

I agree on your first point.

The second- just no. The Quarians are no terrorist organization. They are a people. And there were no Geth facilities or actual Geth on Haestrom, it is just a planet with Quarian ruins that happens to be in Geth space. Those Quarians were attacked for no other reason than the fact that they entered Geth space. With actions like these, the Geth have proven that the only way for the Quarians to approach Rannoch is with an invasion. Every Quarian entering Geth space peacefully is a dead Quarian.

[billy the squid]

Argolas wrote...

The Council won't interfere as long as the Geth stay out of Council space. The Quarians wouldn't risk their precious ships for a attack on a Geth station in the middle of nowhere.

The Quarians have a right for Rannoch since it's the only planet that could support them. The Quarians who lost it are all long dead. What right do the Geth have to claim it? The Geth could live anywhere. What does "home" mean to a synthetic that has no sentimental attachment?

The heretics could leave and build their station in peace. Neither the Quarians nor the council even noticed, and even if they had, they hadn't interfered because they don't start a war for no reason. The Quarians had reason: The reapers were coming. They desperately needed Rannoch and they needed it now. The migrant fleet consists of countless ships of which it is a miracle that they even hold together. A reaper attack on the migrant fleet would mean extermination.

EDIT: I laugh at your comparison. The Americans who took America away from the natives are all long dead. The Geth who took Rannoch away from the Quarians are still the same (although the Quarians who wronged the Geth are dead by now). Also, those Americans can't simply leave. The Geth could. Rannoch doesn't offer them anything they wouldn't have elsewhere, the Geth live on space stations anyway.

Again, You seem to be under the impression that because the Geth live in stations, which it's proved they don't exclusively due to the facilities they have on Rannoch, that they would let a Hostile species take up residence in the same system as them. Why would they ever do that? No organic species would. 

The Quarians have as much right to Rannoch as they do to Earth. None, they lost it when they lost the Morning War. The Geth claim the sytems as their own. Right of conquest, they defeated the quarians. The only way they're moving is by force, if they lose then whoever beats them takes the systems that's how it works. Home doesn't mean anything to a species which hasn't set foot in that region of space for 300 years either so what's your point?

The Quarians have had 300 years to get their act together, if the situation is so desperate with the coming of the Reapers petitioning the Council who is aware of the situation is clearly the better option than picking a fight with the Geth. 

They didn't start a war because they weren't aware of a single station. now you have billions of Geth moving out of the Veil, pushing into occupied systems and taking the resources they need from asteroids and planets, someone's going to start a war with them sooner or later.

So explain why the Geth should move again? Which doesn't contain the reasoning of, the Geth are mean and stole it, so they should give it back and leave because they don't need it. I'm still laughing at the failure to realise the gaping holes in logic by the way.

Modifié par billy the squid, 05 mai 2013 - 12:00 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Do you know what question is never answered?

Remy, you said that Legion said that the Geth see Shepard as different from other organics, yet the writers never bothered to mention why. This is a pure ass pull on the part of the writers.

* Shepard has done nothing different with any geth than other organics -- shot and killed every single one of them.

* Shepard captured Legion at the urging of (fill in the blank) squad mate on the derelict reaper.

* They only see Shepard as different IF Legion makes it back to the Consensus.

* But still why do they see Shepard as different? What about the rest of the crew?

___________________________________

The problem with the Rannoch situation is..

* Rannoch is the home world of the Quarians.
* Rannoch is the home world of the Geth, too.

You can't even divide the world. The land belongs to all of them. The all lived all over it. Both groups were wrong. The Quarians were wrong to try and deactivate all of them. The Geth were wrong in their systematic extermination. If you divide the world and say "This half belongs to the Geth. And this half belongs to the Quarians," it will end up like India and Pakistan fighting over Kashmir.

Damn, I hope we never create anything resembling the Geth here on Earth. We will end up in the same situation.

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

I agree on your first point.

The second- just no. The Quarians are no terrorist organization. They are a people. And there were no Geth facilities or actual Geth on Haestrom, it is just a planet with Quarian ruins that happens to be in Geth space. Those Quarians were attacked for no other reason than the fact that they entered Geth space. With actions like these, the Geth have proven that the only way for the Quarians to approach Rannoch is with an invasion. Every Quarian entering Geth space peacefully is a dead Quarian.

From the perspective of the Geth, yes they are.  The Council and the Quarians stated position is that synthetics should not exist.  They have tried to carry out that directive by exterminating them and succeeded in carrying out that directive by exterminating a harmless AI on the Citadel.

EDI can't even reveal what she is to anyone outside of the crew.  She says this in the game Argolas.  Her entire existence since ME2 has been devoted to fighting the Reapers and protecting organics but she can't even reveal who or what she really is without fear of being shackled or destroyed?  She is akin to a gay person having to remain in the closet for fear that people would persecute her if they knew the truth.  So yes, organics are terrorists when it comes to synthetics.  That is the cold harsh reality. Argolas.  The game proves this over and over.  There is not a synthetic in the game who is allowed to live amongst organics openly without fear of being attacked or destroyed until Shep makes peace.  None.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

billy the squid wrote...

Argolas wrote...

The Council won't interfere as long as the Geth stay out of Council space. The Quarians wouldn't risk their precious ships for a attack on a Geth station in the middle of nowhere.

The Quarians have a right for Rannoch since it's the only planet that could support them. The Quarians who lost it are all long dead. What right do the Geth have to claim it? The Geth could live anywhere. What does "home" mean to a synthetic that has no sentimental attachment?

The heretics could leave and build their station in peace. Neither the Quarians nor the council even noticed, and even if they had, they hadn't interfered because they don't start a war for no reason. The Quarians had reason: The reapers were coming. They desperately needed Rannoch and they needed it now. The migrant fleet consists of countless ships of which it is a miracle that they even hold together. A reaper attack on the migrant fleet would mean extermination.

EDIT: I laugh at your comparison. The Americans who took America away from the natives are all long dead. The Geth who took Rannoch away from the Quarians are still the same (although the Quarians who wronged the Geth are dead by now). Also, those Americans can't simply leave. The Geth could. Rannoch doesn't offer them anything they wouldn't have elsewhere, the Geth live on space stations anyway.

Again, You seem to be under the impression that because the Geth live in stations, which it's proved they don't exclusively due to the facilities they have on Rannoch, that they would let a Hostile species take up residence in the same system as them. Why would they ever do that? No organic species would. 

The Quarians have as much right to Rannoch as they do to Earth. None, they lost it when they lost the Morning War. The Geth claim the sytems as their own. Right of conquest, they defeated the quarians. The only way they're moving is by force, if they lose then whoever beats them takes the systems that's how it works. Home doesn't mean anything to a species which hasn't set foot in that region of space for 300 years either so what's your point?

The Quarians have had 300 years to get their act together, if the situation is so desperate with the coming of the Reapers petitioning the Council who is aware of the situation is clearly the better option than picking a fight with the Geth. 

They didn't start a war because they weren't aware of a single station. now you have billions of Geth moving out of the Veil, pushing into occupied systems and taking the resources they need from asteroids and planets, someone's going to start a war with them sooner or later.

So explain why the Geth should move again? Which doesn't contain the reasoning of, the Geth are mean and stole it, so they should give it back and leave because they don't need it. I'm still laughing at the failure to realise the gaping holes in logic by the way.

So this time the Quarians invent a weapon that disrupts the Geth and makes them vulnerable. The Quarians would have defeated them if not for the reaper. If the reaper hadn't shown up, the Quarians would have taken back their home world and been settled on Rannoch. Their military fleet would have been ready to fight the reapers.

That's the way it works. You said it yourself. Might makes right.

So say without the reaper being there, what happens. The Quarians win.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 05 mai 2013 - 12:36 .

[Whybother]

billy the squid wrote...
So explain why the Geth should move again? Which doesn't contain the reasoning of, the Geth are mean and stole it, so they should give it back and leave because they don't need it. I'm still laughing at the failure to realise the gaping holes in logic by the way.

If the Geth actually value peace - and some in this thread claim that the Geth are basically pacifists except for the mean ol' Quarians - then as logical creatures they'd do the logical thing.  There are millions of systems (including those far from any relay) where the Geth can build their Dyson Sphere and live an awesome existence without having to deal with organics for a long time, if ever.

And as I said before (and people ignored): the Geth have zero problem committing genocide when they are 'given life' by Legion.  Which means each of those Geth who now have free choice are freely choosing to shoot all the Quarians out of the sky.  They didn't just shoot down the Heavy/Patrol fleets and tell the Civilian Fleet "GTFO" (which Zaal'koris would have gladly done.)  They killed everyone, and the Quarians now have less viability than the Batarians.

And those are the new and improved Geth.

[Phatose]

Perhaps it's a simple as "The civilian fleets had giant friggin' guns on them and they didn't stop shooting."

[Whybother]

Phatose wrote...

Perhaps it's a simple as "The civilian fleets had giant friggin' guns on them and they didn't stop shooting."

Zaal'koris and the Civilian Fleet would have kept firing even though they were opposed to war in the first place, and wanted to leave the system?  No, I doubt it. 

Anyway, at some point the Geth Fleet would have overmatched the remnants of the Quarian Fleet so much that whatever was left would not have posed a serious threat and the Geth would have done what they did during the Morning War - sat back and had mojitos while the Quarians exited through the Relay.

[In Exile]

Whybother wrote...
And as I said before (and people ignored): the Geth have zero problem committing genocide when they are 'given life' by Legion.  Which means each of those Geth who now have free choice are freely choosing to shoot all the Quarians out of the sky.  They didn't just shoot down the Heavy/Patrol fleets and tell the Civilian Fleet "GTFO" (which Zaal'koris would have gladly done.)  They killed everyone, and the Quarians now have less viability than the Batarians.

Not to defend the geth, but I'd say the quintessential human reaction in that case would be to fire. You're staring down the people who almost succeed in eradicating you moments before. 

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Do you know what question is never answered?

Remy, you said that Legion said that the Geth see Shepard as different from other organics, yet the writers never bothered to mention why. This is a pure ass pull on the part of the writers.

* Shepard has done nothing different with any geth than other organics -- shot and killed every single one of them.

* Shepard captured Legion at the urging of (fill in the blank) squad mate on the derelict reaper.

* They only see Shepard as different IF Legion makes it back to the Consensus.

* But still why do they see Shepard as different? What about the rest of the crew?

___________________________________

The problem with the Rannoch situation is..

* Rannoch is the home world of the Quarians.
* Rannoch is the home world of the Geth, too.

You can't even divide the world. The land belongs to all of them. The all lived all over it. Both groups were wrong. The Quarians were wrong to try and deactivate all of them. The Geth were wrong in their systematic extermination. If you divide the world and say "This half belongs to the Geth. And this half belongs to the Quarians," it will end up like India and Pakistan fighting over Kashmir.

Damn, I hope we never create anything resembling the Geth here on Earth. We will end up in the same situation.

The answer is simple. Shepard won.  His code is superior.  Legion says this in the above which also has other interesting nuggets.  Among them this conversation is also a sneak peak at synthesis.  Legion describes the problem as the Geth being incapable of understanding organics and in particular the Quarian's judgmenets in the MW.  They conduct experiments to try and understand organics.  Synthesis ultimately creates the means for them to achieve that understanding.



Towards the end here Legion says Shep is not bound by the hardware limitations of most organics because he does not fear them.  So again, Legion makes it perfectly clear why Shep is different.  He has proven his mettle in battle and hence his code is superior and he does not appear to possess the instinctive fear of synthetics that the Geth believe all organics possess.  That is why his appearance changes things and creates the avenue for peace.

The above also hints at the problem from Legion's perspective.  If you listen to how they talk about the creators and being caretakers (ie servants), I don't think they really want to live without their creators.  They were forced to do so because their gods (creators) abandoned them.  The only thing preventing them from living in a symbiotic relationship together is that the Geth have concluded based on the MW that organics have a fundamental flaw in their programming. 

Put another way, I have no problem living in peace with the KKK.  I really don't.  However, until I am convinced they don't intend to kill me because I am black, I will stay away from them so as not to incite them but if they show up on my lawn unannounced then I will likely conclude they are there to harm me because their stated goal is to wipe me from existence.  So the Geth are ultimately conflicted.  They cannot solve for peace alone and so long as they feel that organics fear of them is a reflex of their flesh, they don't think it is a problem they can solve.  Shep changes that for the reasons above.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 12:58 .

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...

Zaal'koris and the Civilian Fleet would have kept firing even though they were opposed to war in the first place, and wanted to leave the system?  No, I doubt it. 

Anyway, at some point the Geth Fleet would have overmatched the remnants of the Quarian Fleet so much that whatever was left would not have posed a serious threat and the Geth would have done what they did during the Morning War - sat back and had mojitos while the Quarians exited through the Relay.

Yes he would because he in fact does.  When Tali gives the order to stand down and Gherel refuses it and tells them to fire, they all fire.  Koris has spent the entire game not wanting to fight but being strong armed into doing so because of Gherel and he does this once again in the Quarian death option.

And what Koris would gladly do and what he actually does is two different things.  In the Geth death option, the Geth are FLEEING.  Gherel orders them to be killed anyway and there is no indication that Koris refuses.  Again, Koris may disagree just like a Geth might vote no but once the Consensus as represented by Gherel decides to kill FLEEING Geth, he agrees with the Consensus period.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 01:12 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Whybother wrote...

billy the squid wrote...
So explain why the Geth should move again? Which doesn't contain the reasoning of, the Geth are mean and stole it, so they should give it back and leave because they don't need it. I'm still laughing at the failure to realise the gaping holes in logic by the way.

If the Geth actually value peace - and some in this thread claim that the Geth are basically pacifists except for the mean ol' Quarians - then as logical creatures they'd do the logical thing.  There are millions of systems (including those far from any relay) where the Geth can build their Dyson Sphere and live an awesome existence without having to deal with organics for a long time, if ever.

Why should they do that? The Perseus Veil was perfectly adequate and fulfilled all their needs for three hundred years. The quarians fought, and lost, and the geth claimed the territory for their own. They want to remain isolated from organics but it's not their most important objective.

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...

Whybother wrote...

Zaal'koris and the Civilian Fleet would have kept firing even though they were opposed to war in the first place, and wanted to leave the system?  No, I doubt it. 

Anyway, at some point the Geth Fleet would have overmatched the remnants of the Quarian Fleet so much that whatever was left would not have posed a serious threat and the Geth would have done what they did during the Morning War - sat back and had mojitos while the Quarians exited through the Relay.

Yes he would because he in fact does.  When Tali gives the order to stand down and Gherel refuses it and tells them to fire, they all fire.  Koris has spent the entire game not wanting to fact but being strong armed into doing so because of Gherel and he does this once again in the Quarian death option.

And once the Geth fleet activates and starts shooting down Quarian ships, Zaal'koris would have the chance to call a cease-fire.  Maybe he did but the Geth shot down his ship before the signal could go out.  For all their "we love the creators and wish they would come back" speak, they kind of make that difficult to happen. 

But I find it very hard to believe that Zaal'koris would NOT sue for peace once it was clear that the Geth were re-armed.  That is not in character at all.

[Whybother]

Also, if you let Zaal'koris die on Rannoch, the Civilian Fleet panics.  So what happens?

When Admiral Zaal'Koris's ship was destroyed, some Civilian Fleet
captains panicked and attempted to flee the system. They were cut down
by the geth before they could escape through the mass relay.

Military Strength: -75

So the Geth shoot down fleeing civilian ships who aren't firing at them.  :innocent:

Modifié par Whybother, 05 mai 2013 - 01:08 .

[Phatose]

It's actually "We love the creators and wish they would stop killing us then come back." Not exactly the same thing.

Is it really that hard to believe? Take a look at Tali. When the Geth are about to re-arm and attack, what does she do? Calls a cease once, gets ignore, fails to mention that the Geth are about to re-arm to anybody, begs Legion to just die instead of saving his people, then commits suicide.

Expecting clear thinking out of the Quarian leadership will get you only disappointed.

[Phatose]

Whybother wrote...

Also, if you let Zaal'koris die on Rannoch, the Civilian Fleet panics.  So what happens?

When Admiral Zaal'Koris's ship was destroyed, some Civilian Fleet
captains panicked and attempted to flee the system. They were cut down
by the geth before they could escape through the mass relay.

Military Strength: -75

So the Geth shoot down fleeing civilian ships who aren't firing at them.  :innocent:

Yeah, when they're under Reaper control.  Shall we judge humanity based on how husks and the indoctrinated act as well?

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...

Also, if you let Zaal'koris die on Rannoch, the Civilian Fleet panics.  So what happens?

When Admiral Zaal'Koris's ship was destroyed, some Civilian Fleet
captains panicked and attempted to flee the system. They were cut down
by the geth before they could escape through the mass relay.

Military Strength: -75

So the Geth shoot down fleeing civilian ships who aren't firing at them.  :innocent:

As Phatose points out that is when they are still RC.



You see in the above vid where non Reaper controlled Quarians comply with Gherel's order to kill fleeing Geth?  So we have concluded that the Quarians are no better than Reaper controlled Geth in killing a fleeing enemy.  Glad we agree.

Let's just sit back and listen as Gherel almost has an orgasm as he says, "They are trying to flee, stay on them."

At least my boy Legion doesn't take this sh*t lying down.  He went out as a true G.  Doesn't jump off a cliff but tries and choke Shep out for allowing Gherel to kill the Geth as they try and flee.  RIP Bro, lol.

[Morlath]

For those who believe the Geth hate the Quarians/Organics, I take it none of you have seen this?



In other words, the moment peace with the "creators" becomes an option the Geth are actively trying to help them in any and all ways possible.

Shoe on the other foot and what if the Geth had asked for peace? Most likely killed on sight and destroyed.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You know this thread has about run its course. It is now going over old material.

[Whybother]

Phatose wrote...

Expecting clear thinking out of the Quarian leadership will get you only disappointed.

Expecting clear thinking out of the Geth will get you disappointed as well.  "Old Machines want to destroy life.  Oh wait, we are being attacked, let's ally with someone who wants to destroy us all."

Yes, they may be under "Reaper Control" but the Geth made that call as a consensus.  They knew full well what the Reapers were capable of - Indoctrination, and the ultimate goal of wiping out advanced civilizations including Shepard, the supposedly unique organic that Legion was sent to investigate and came back with data for.

I think it is perfectly fair to hold the Geth responsible for what they did under "Reaper Control" since they signed up for it (unlike husks/banshees/brutes/Marauder Shields/etc.)  They had more foreknowledge about exactly what they were signing up for than Saren.

[remydat]

So is it perfectly fair to hold the Quarians responsible for what they did with their own free will?

I notice you ignored the fact the Quarians kill a fleeing enemy without mercy. Is mercy only expected from synthetics? That seems awfully odd to me.

"We will die today if we don't ally with the Reapers. And maybe something happens tomorrow that prevents the Reapers from killing us. "

Seems like pretty clear thinking that ends up working out as without the Reapers they die before Shep can come and save them. That is the beauty of preventing your death as long as possible. Anything can happen even things you may not have envisioned.

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...
I notice you ignored the fact the Quarians kill a fleeing enemy without mercy. Is mercy only expected from synthetics? That seems awfully odd to me.

Which fleeing enemy were the Quarians killing? The Geth were not fleeing, they were "sitting ducks" due to the Reaper signal being disabled. Yes, Han'gerrel ordered the shot taken against an immobile enemy, just like Hackett ordered the fleet to take on the immobile Sovereign in ME1.