889 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

As it stands, their offer to a ceasefire is bunk because the Quarians have not been able to find any habitable worlds to live on

That's not how I remember it - Tali's comments in ME2 suggests that the quarians haven't really tried to hard because they are too busy hating geth.
Regardless however - so what? Not giving in to your enemy's every demand and defending yourself against a suicidally stupidly aggressive enemy who will not stop attacking until one side is dead still doesn't meet the definition of genocide; they waived any protection and moral high ground when they mounted guns on their civilian live ships.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

You know...this thread has had a lot of pro-Geth people admitting to the faults that the Geth have and almost no pro-Quarians doing the same. No real surprise things are going in circles.

That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

Let me clear the record on who's guilty of what.

Morning War:
Quarians are guilty of panicking when the geth - their automated weapons/servants start showing signs of self-awareness.
Geth are guilty of massicaring the quarians brutally and unessessarily.

After that, the quarians became exiled nomads, too scared about their people's future to take major action.
The geth became isolationist recluses whose gunpoint-enforced policies against peace-bearing organics worsened public opinion on A.I.s.

Rannoch War:
The quarians panic under the threat of the oncomming Reapers, and attack the geth in a desperate bid to reclaim their world and secure a future for their people, even though they do not actually WANT to fight the geth.
The geth, when faced with their extinction, throw the entire galaxy under the bus and side with the Reapers to survive the quarian attack.

BOTH have fault. Something I have yet to see some of the pro-geth's admit - haven't seen many of them admit that ANYTHING was the geth's own fault.

[Argolas]

I see a lot of bias and double standards from Geth supporters as well.



True: When the Quarians attacked the Geth, the Geth had done nothing to deserve that. The Geth were innocent victims at that time.

Bias: Therefore, everyone who sides with the Geth in any conflict protects innocents while those who side against the Geth in any conflict seek to harm innocents- regardless if the Geth are actually still innocent or not.



True: In the Morning War, both the Quarians and the Geth were confronted with a situation that neither of them wanted or expected, As a result, both sides killed countless innocents of the other.

Argument: They didn't realize that they were commiting a terrible war crime. 
Therefore either: The argument is valid. While the Quarians hadn't learned to deal with Synthetics as equal forms of life, the Geth hadn't learned to value organic life yet- both sides are innocent and it was but a misunderstanding (my opinion btw.).
or: The argument is invalid. The Quarians knew that the Geth were true AIs and would have had to consider them alive. The Geth had access to laws, ethics and records and would have had to consider slaughtering innocents unacceptable. Both sides didn't know, but that is no excuse because both sides could have known- both sides are guilty.

Double Standard: While both sides didn't know how to deal with each other appropriately, the Geth's overreaction is okay while the actively hostile Quarians' is not.

Modifié par Argolas, 05 mai 2013 - 07:51 .

[chemiclord]

This is one thing I really like about the conflict... there really ISN'T a "right" side; they've both done some pretty horrible things over the last 300 some years, and there are elements on both sides that have been drug into the mess that really don't deserve to be.

It's also why I find the idea of a "peaceful" resolution (thereby circumventing the moral decision) to be patently absurd, especially how Shepard manages to do it.

[Whybother]

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

The quarians used to practice a form of ancestor worship. This involved
taking a personality imprint from the individual and developing it into
an interface similar to a VI.
The quarians began experimenting with making these imprints more and
more sophisticated, hopefully leading to the wisdom of their ancestors
being preserved in an imprint that could be truly intelligent. However,
the geth destroyed the quarians' ancestor databanks when they rebelled.

Gotta kill those VIs before they have a chance to spring the Towers of Hanoi on you or something.

[Argolas]

chemiclord wrote...

This is one thing I really like about the conflict... there really ISN'T a "right" side; they've both done some pretty horrible things over the last 300 some years, and there are elements on both sides that have been drug into the mess that really don't deserve to be.

Thank you.

[silverexile17s]

Whybother wrote...

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Quarian

The quarians used to practice a form of ancestor worship. This involved
taking a personality imprint from the individual and developing it into
an interface similar to a VI.
The quarians began experimenting with making these imprints more and
more sophisticated, hopefully leading to the wisdom of their ancestors
being preserved in an imprint that could be truly intelligent. However,
the geth destroyed the quarians' ancestor databanks when they rebelled.

Gotta kill those VIs before they have a chance to spring the Towers of Hanoi on you or something.

It's never actually explained why the geth went so out of their way to destroy those databanks.

[silverexile17s]

Argolas wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

This is one thing I really like about the conflict... there really ISN'T a "right" side; they've both done some pretty horrible things over the last 300 some years, and there are elements on both sides that have been drug into the mess that really don't deserve to be.

Thank you.

Indeed.
I admit that the quarians have screwed up in the past.
They panicked when their guns/tools started talking to them. It's a natural responce to be worried by the implications, but the quarians panicked and tried to reprogrm what was being created. When that failed, they tried to destroy them.  It may have been a "them or us" situation thanks to Council laws, but.....  the quarians are still guilty of panicking and perpetuating a conflict. without knowing what the outcome would have been had they let the geth be.

Likewise, the geth were unessessaraly hostile and harsh in their retaliation, slaughtering unarmed innocents and even alien visitors (Eryna's bondmate, an asari) in their rampage. At some point, the geth became the agressors, supressing the quarians and pushing them back until they invaded Rannoch and drove them off-world.

So, for every quarian mistake and fault, there is an equal geth fault.
One can argue semantics and natrual responces, and the logic on how what they did was in responce to the other. But It doesn't change the fact - they are at equal fault, and there is a negitive aspect of the geth for every negitive aspect of the quarians.

[Argolas]

silverexile17s wrote...

Argolas wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

This is one thing I really like about the conflict... there really ISN'T a "right" side; they've both done some pretty horrible things over the last 300 some years, and there are elements on both sides that have been drug into the mess that really don't deserve to be.

Thank you.

Indeed.
I admit that the quarians have screwed up in the past.
They panicked when their guns/tools started talking to them. It's a natural responce to be worried by the implications, but the quarians panicked and tried to reprogrm what was being created. When that failed, they tried to destroy them.  It may have been a "them or us" situation thanks to Council laws, but.....  the quarians are still guilty of panicking and perpetuating a conflict. without knowing what the outcome would have been had they let the geth be.

Likewise, the geth were unessessaraly hostile and harsh in their retaliation, slaughtering unarmed innocents and even alien visitors (Eryna's bondmate, an asari) in their rampage. At some point, the geth became the agressors, supressing the quarians and pushing them back until they invaded Rannoch and drove them off-world.

So, for every quarian mistake and fault, there is an equal geth fault.
One can argue semantics and natrual responces, and the logic on how what they did was in responce to the other. But It doesn't change the fact - they are at equal fault, and there is a negitive aspect of the geth for every negitive aspect of the quarians.

And then people like Auld Wulf come calling black and white thinking on Quarian supporters while making up crazy conspiracy theories that say it was all the Quarian's fault and the Geth are completely innocent.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

I am a Quarian supporter because Geth have sided with Reapers twice,Geth didn't allow any other alternetive for the Quarians other than war to reclame their home world and made an enemy out of all organic by simply refusing to communicate.

I can respect Legion for standing up for its people. But the Quarians didn't do anything wrong by continued fire. All Geth ships are armed and they could have just recovered and attacked later. Also I have no reason to trust the Reaper code which was controlling the Geth a few minutes ago. Also Legion wanted the code so the Geth can destroy the Quarians.

The Geth could have started by opening a comms channel with Quarians. They didn't.

The bold are all biased or misleading.

1.  Once Legion and Shep meet, Legion makes clear what the Quarians need to provide piece.  You keep ignoring Legion and Shep's relationship and pretending that since they were hostile for the 300 years prior, Legion and Shep's relationship means nothing.  That is simply factually inaccurate as the story makes clear.

2.  If the Quarians didn't do anything wrong by continuing to fire then please tell people to stop complaining about the Geth shooting at people shooting at them when all the Quarian ships including the Civilian live ships are armed and actually firing at them.

3.  Legion has had the Reaper Code all game and used it to save you.  You have reason to trust it because without it the Quarians would be dead.  You are free to choose not to trust it of course.

4.  Legion wanted the code because Gherel was killing fleeing Geth.  Gherel says clearly in the game, "The Geth are fleeing, stay on them."  If Legion simply wanted the code to kill Quarians then in when he got the code, the Geth would have killed the Quarians.  They do not.  They only ever kill the Quarians when the Quarians try to kill them and they return fire.  See 2 above.  So your claim is simply misleading.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

If you are going to call my name then do so without lying about my position.  I already provided SAK with a link to posts I made that admitted the Geth were wrong several pages ago. 

[IanPolaris]

Whybother wrote...

Also, if you let Zaal'koris die on Rannoch, the Civilian Fleet panics.  So what happens?

When Admiral Zaal'Koris's ship was destroyed, some Civilian Fleet
captains panicked and attempted to flee the system. They were cut down
by the geth before they could escape through the mass relay.

Military Strength: -75

So the Geth shoot down fleeing civilian ships who aren't firing at them.  :innocent:

Not only are the Geth still under Reaper control, but the civilian ships are armed which makes them legit military targets, fleeing or not.  In fact tactically the Geth should shoot at such targets when the opportunity presents itself.  EDI points out that the Geth would leave civilian ships alone (as tactically insignificant) if they weren't armed.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

There are no weapons that would kill the whole population but leave the planet perfectly intact.

Biological warfare? "Area-of-Effect" bombings?

There are quite a number of ways of making a planet inhospitable to native to the apex species without ripping the planet apart.

An gene-tailored pandemic would fit the facts almost perfectly in fact.  Such an organism with a near total contagion and fatality rate would burn itself out and render itself exinct probably within a few decades, and depending on how 'fussy' an eater this pendemic was, it might actually have very little ecological damage to the planet in the meantime.

-Polaris

[Morlath]

IanPolaris wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

There are no weapons that would kill the whole population but leave the planet perfectly intact.

Biological warfare? "Area-of-Effect" bombings?

There are quite a number of ways of making a planet inhospitable to native to the apex species without ripping the planet apart.

An gene-tailored pandemic would fit the facts almost perfectly in fact. Such an organism with a near total contagion and fatality rate would burn itself out and render itself exinct probably within a few decades, and depending on how 'fussy' an eater this pendemic was, it might actually have very little ecological damage to the planet in the meantime.

-Polaris

And in addition, especially for the "genocidal Geth deserve to die!" camp.

It's started in-game that all life on the planet were engaged in a symbiotic relationship with some/all (can't remember exactly) bacteria. It's the very reason why the Quarians have such immune system in the first place.

Any biological weapon the Geth used - hell, any REGULAR weapon that impacted such a balanced ecosystem - would have caused absolutely massive fatalities until the Quarians were able to build their environmental suits.

[remydat]

Somewhat on topic, if anyone watches person of interest, this past week's episode had some serious Skynet implications and all I could say is Harold you f**king idiot.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

The bold are all biased or misleading.

1.  Once Legion and Shep meet, Legion makes clear what the Quarians need to provide piece.  You keep ignoring Legion and Shep's relationship and pretending that since they were hostile for the 300 years prior, Legion and Shep's relationship means nothing.  That is simply factually inaccurate as the story makes clear.

2.  If the Quarians didn't do anything wrong by continuing to fire then please tell people to stop complaining about the Geth shooting at people shooting at them when all the Quarian ships including the Civilian live ships are armed and actually firing at them.

3.  Legion has had the Reaper Code all game and used it to save you.  You have reason to trust it because without it the Quarians would be dead.  You are free to choose not to trust it of course.

4.  Legion wanted the code because Gherel was killing fleeing Geth.  Gherel says clearly in the game, "The Geth are fleeing, stay on them."  If Legion simply wanted the code to kill Quarians then in when he got the code, the Geth would have killed the Quarians.  They do not.  They only ever kill the Quarians when the Quarians try to kill them and they return fire.  See 2 above.  So your claim is simply misleading.

1. Lol. Again you are saying the one Geth must have been trusted by everyone. And was Legion there to deal with Heretics or make negotiations with Quarians?

2. Please don't involve with me on other peoples matters. Take it up with them.

3. A geth would do anything to live including selling their soul. You want me to trust someone like that? Can you?

4. When Tali begs Legion not to upload the code Legion says "We regret the deaths of the creators but we see no alternetive." You know this so don't pretend you don't. And what would Geth do with the code other than return fire and kill all Quarians which they of course did?

Also about Geth using bioweapons. Legion tells you Quarians didn't use WMDs in the MW. But the Geth did as you admit yourself. But you still want to justify it and call Quarians the oppresor? Which side did the genocide in the MW Geth or Quarians?

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

3. A geth would do anything to live including selling their soul. You want me to trust someone like that? Can you?

4. When Tali begs Legion not to upload the code Legion says "We regret the deaths of the creators but we see no alternetive." You know this so don't pretend you don't. And what would Geth do with the code other than return fire and kill all Quarians which they of course did?

3 - This is done in-game by a number of different people/species. Miranda's loyalty mission in ME2 has a human selling his soul/betrying her to her father. Saren gives up his soul for the chance to save organics, TIM does the same in the belief it will save humanity.

You can argue that the Dalatrass wanting to Shepard to betray the Krogan is her selling her soul for an old hurt or at the very least trying to buy Shepard's in return of her support. Udina sells his soul to Cerberus and starts the failed Coup to take over the Citadel.

People will do anything, promise anything and give up anything if they have enough fear motivating them.

4 - Legion is telling Tali one thing and one thing only. "We want to live and I want to save my people from extinction." When the Geth end up returning fire it's a case of "Those bastards tried to kill us, now it's our turn."

A perfectly human reaction.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

3. A geth would do anything to live including selling their soul. You want me to trust someone like that? Can you?

4. When Tali begs Legion not to upload the code Legion says "We regret the deaths of the creators but we see no alternetive." You know this so don't pretend you don't. And what would Geth do with the code other than return fire and kill all Quarians which they of course did?

3 - This is done in-game by a number of different people/species. Miranda's loyalty mission in ME2 has a human selling his soul/betrying her to her father. Saren gives up his soul for the chance to save organics, TIM does the same in the belief it will save humanity.

You can argue that the Dalatrass wanting to Shepard to betray the Krogan is her selling her soul for an old hurt or at the very least trying to buy Shepard's in return of her support. Udina sells his soul to Cerberus and starts the failed Coup to take over the Citadel.

People will do anything, promise anything and give up anything if they have enough fear motivating them.

4 - Legion is telling Tali one thing and one thing only. "We want to live and I want to save my people from extinction." When the Geth end up returning fire it's a case of "Those bastards tried to kill us, now it's our turn."

A perfectly human reaction.

3. I didn't mean in as a figure of speech. I mean literally selling their soul. Can you think of a species willing to do that?
4. Yeah. It's either let those two fight it out or provide Geth with Reaper tech to kill the Quarians.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

3. I didn't mean in as a figure of speech. I mean literally selling their soul. Can you think of a species willing to do that?
4. Yeah. It's either let those two fight it out or provide Geth with Reaper tech to kill the Quarians.

You can't get more literal except if a deity shows up and has you sign a contract in blood.

I'll admit that there's no way of knowing if the Reaper code produces a synthetic version of indoctrination. That's a leap of faith decision.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

3. I didn't mean in as a figure of speech. I mean literally selling their soul. Can you think of a species willing to do that?
4. Yeah. It's either let those two fight it out or provide Geth with Reaper tech to kill the Quarians.

You can't get more literal except if a deity shows up and has you sign a contract in blood.

I'll admit that there's no way of knowing if the Reaper code produces a synthetic version of indoctrination. That's a leap of faith decision.

Well that's what the Geth did though. They sold themselves to the Reapers to survive a bit longer at the cost of their own sentience.

Yep. That thing could be hella dangerous.

[remydat]

S.A.K

1. I am saying you can't claim they provided no alternative when Legion is standing right there and living with Tali and Shep and when he told them what is required for peace.  The opportunity is there.  They have valid reasons not to take it but they can't claim it is not there when it clearly is.

2. So fine, let me ask clearly.  Are you fine with the Geth shooting back at the Quarians for shooting at them?

3. If I can find a way to trust people in think it is cool to force people to give birth to billions of stillborn babies after they uplifted a people to wage war and that is all they wanted them to know then yeah.

4. The key word here is RETURN FIRE.  Legion is uploading the code because his people are dead without it.  They are dead without it because the Quarians don't want to stop firing.  How can you tell me in two to take it up with other people when here you want to fault Legion for trying to save his people from the Quarians shooting at them?

The Quarians didn't use WMDs because they can't.  Chemical and bioweapons won't work on synthetics and nukes will kill them too since the war is on Rannoch.  What WMDs do you think they could have used.

The Quarians were the oppressor.  They attacked people who did not attack them.  They have to be considered the oppressor.  That does not justify what the Geth did.  That is a statement of fact.  I don't know if what the Geth did is genocide because as EDI said becoming self aware during an attack is confusing.  The Geth like EDI became self aware and then were attacked.  I also don't know if the Quarians forced the use of chemical weapns because they simply refused to stop attacking. What the Geth did was horrible.  However, I would need more evidence before I could claim they are guilty of genocide.  I know what the Quarians intended becuase Tali admitted they tried to shut down the Geth permanently.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 05:11 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

1. I am saying you can't claim they provided no alternative when Legion is standing right there and living with Tali and Shep and when he told them what is required for peace.  The opportunity is there.  They have valid reasons not to take it but they can't claim it is not there when it clearly is.

2. So fine, let me ask clearly.  Are you fine with the Geth shooting back at the Quarians for shooting at them?

3. If I can find a way to trust people in think it is cool to force people to give birth to billions of stillborn babies after they uplifted a people to wage war and that is all they wanted them to know then yeah.

4. The key word here is RETURN FIRE.  Legion is uploading the code because his people are dead without it.  They are dead without it because the Quarians don't want to stop firing.  How can you tell me in two to take it up with other people when here you want to fault Legion for trying to save his people from the Quarians shooting at them?

The Quarians didn't use WMDs because they can't.  Chemical and bioweapons won't work on synthetics and nukes will kill them too since the war is on Rannoch.  What WMDs do you think they could have used.

The Quarians were the oppressor.  They attacked people who did not attack them.  They have to be considered the oppressor.  That does not justify what the Geth did.  That is a statement of fact.  I don't know if what the Geth did is genocide because as EDI said becoming self aware during an attack is confusing.  The Geth like EDI became self aware and then were attacked.  I also don't know if the Quarians forced the use of chemical weapns because they simply refused to stop attacking. What the Geth did was horrible.  However, I would need more evidence before I could claim they are guilty of genocide.  I know what the Quarians intended becuase Tali admitted they tried to shut down the Geth permanently.

1. You didn't answer the Question.

2. Yes, why not? I don't blame Geth for fighting back. But I do blame them for taking it to the level of genocide of 99.9% of the population.

3. Did I tell you to trust Turians or Salariance? No. And it's off topic to go into this.

4. That doesn't mean I can trust the Reaper code or I should allow Reaper tech so the Geth could kill the Quarians. Btw, I made peace in all my playthroughts because I knew Reaper code is ok from a meta gaming perspective. If I didn't know that I would never allow it to be uploaded.

You heard about an EMP? A nuke in the upper atmosphere would fry all Geth within a the area size of North Amarica. The Quarians would only get some radiation and even that wouldn't be lethal.

What more proof you need to consider it genocide? Isn't 99.9% of the population enough? Or the fact that they killed everyone who didn't leave the planet? Provide one instanse it cannot be considered genocide keeping in mind Quarians didn't use WMDs and Geth did.

[remydat]

SAK

1. When I said they have valid reasons not to take the opportunity, that was me saying they have reasons not to trust Legion.  I am not asking that they trust him. I am saying having no reason to trust someone is a separate question than whether an opportunity for peace was provided.

2. And that is fine provided you acknowledege the Quarians wanted 100% genocide and the Geth just beat them to the punch.

3. It is not off topic at all.  The point as I keep saying is the Geth are no different than anyone else.  They had no other allies.  

4. Again, Legion has used Reaper Code to save the Quarians.  EDI uses evolving reaper code.  You don't have to trust it but ultimately not allowing them to upload it is signing their death warrant.  Keep in mind Legion after you admonish him for lying decides to trust you with this.  Logically he could have remained the vehicle for the 1-2 minutes it takes to upload and while Tali and Shep are still basking in the afterglow killing a Reaper.  There was no reason for him to come out the vehicle or hell not take off in that vehicle and get far away from you and upload it.  He takes a chance and trusts you with this.  You heard about an EMP? A nuke in the upper atmosphere would fry all Geth within a the area size of North Amarica. The Quarians would only get some radiation and even that wouldn't be lethal.

There is no evidence an EMP would work.  If it would then why wouldn't they have used it.  IT does not damange organic life.  Further, the Quarians would not have to spend 300 years trying to develop the flashbang Xen does if an EMP would do the trick.

Genocide requires me to know the intent of the Geth.  To know their state of mind and to know that they fully understand their actions.  EDI's discussion about become self aware amidst an attack and being confused and killing those marines on Luna leads me to believe the Geth were in a similar boat.  They didn't know any better.  EDI reads and then asks Shep or the rest of the crew questions so she can learn how to apply what she has read.  The Geth read and asked the Quarians questions and they tried to exterminate them 100% because of it.  I don't see how you can judge the Geth morally which genocide is very much a moral determination without proving they understand morals.  I can agree they killed a ton of people and that it was horrible. 

[S.A.K]

@remydat.
1. I don't think it was an opportunity for peace. Wasn't Legion (who was the only Geth to even talk with an organic in 300 years) put in shackles against it's will by it's own fellow Geth? Besides Legion joins up just a few days before hitting the Omega relay and Shepard was in custody after that

2. Sure I always accepted that. did you see me saying Quarians were "right
' for starting the MW? But there is a huge difference between wanting something and doing it.

3. I mean talking about Turians and Salarians here is off topic, is it not?

4. Still don't see why I can trust that code. If Legion ran away at that point, Geth would stay under Reaper control for ever. How does that help anyone other than Reapers, lol.

Last time I checked, Geth are robots. So there is no reason it wouldn't work. I don't know why they wouldn't use it. Maybe they didn't want to commit genocide? And the EMPs wouldn't be as effective in a ship to ship was because of the vast distances in space. They would have to hit individual ships. Xens weapon screws the whole Geth network.

If they didn't know better, Legion's recordings that you see on the Geth server mission must be fabricated as it shows Geth with real emotions toward the Quarians. And if they accepted it as wrong later when they are able, they wouldn't have killed all organics they encountered and refuse to even communicate with organics. And yes it was horrible and I am sure they knew what they were doing.

P.s : I have to go away for a while. So I won't respond soon.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
Well that's what the Geth did though. They sold themselves to the Reapers to survive a bit longer at the cost of their own sentience.

Yep. That thing could be hella dangerous.{smilie}

You're ignoring the point that the examples I made are moral equivalent for organics.

The Quarians put their civilians on the front line because of their sole desire to destroy the Geth and retake the planet. The Geth became slaves because of their sole desire to stay alive.