889 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

S.A.K

1.  Sorry I did Arrival long after the Collector mission and Legion was at Tali's trial and told Koris the requirments for peace.  Furher, ME3 takes place over months as Tali admits she knew Shep was out of prison but just didn't tell him about the war because she thought he was busy.

2. When wanting something leads to the person you want to exterminate killing you, it is problematic.

3. Not if you are asking me why I should trust the Geth.  People do sh*tty things when their lives are at stake as other races in the game prove. 

4. No, I was referring to after the Reaper was killed.  Remember Legion secures a vehicle and is driving Shep before Shep tells him to pull over so he can target the Reaper.  Once the Reaper is dead, Legion is free to upload the code without the Reaper signal interferring.  He has no reason to leave the vehicle.  Tali leaves the vechicle next and Legion is shown coming up behind both of them intially.  Logically, he could have stayed away and uploaded the code in silence.  He has no reason to ask or tell Shep anything except he chooses to trust Shep most likely because he still feels bad about lying to Shep earlier.

Lol, give me a break about not wanting to commit genocide.   They didn't use it probably because it isn't as effecitve as you think.  If you fire an EMP and you are for example in a ship, your ship is going done too.  I don't really think you can control the blast radius of an EMP that effectively.  That is probably why Xen had to develop a weapon that was specific to the Geth.

The Geth were programmed to serve their creators.  So they likely would have programming that predisposes them to be concerned about their creators well being.  However, when they start becoming self aware and are being killed by them and Creator Megara is being killed as well, the self preservation instinct of any sentient species overrides that core programming.  And I don't think they accept it was wrong.  They accept they did harm because they did.  Killing by defintion is causing harm.  However, since they concluded that organic fear of synthetics is a hardwire error or reflex of their flesh, they likely think that harm was necessary.  That is my opinion so you are free to believe otherwise.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

The Geth were programmed to serve their creators.  So they likely would have programming that predisposes them to be concerned about their creators well being.  However, when they start becoming self aware and are being killed by them and Creator Megara is being killed as well, the self preservation instinct of any sentient species overrides that core programming.  And I don't think they accept it was wrong.  They accept they did harm because they did.  Killing by defintion is causing harm.  However, since they concluded that organic fear of synthetics is a hardwire error or reflex of their flesh, they likely think that harm was necessary.  That is my opinion so you are free to believe otherwise.

Yes. "We killed because our existence was under threat. If our existence is not under threat we have no reason to kill especially in relation to the creators" is generally the way the Geth's perspective is given through Legion.

[Reorte]

Morlath wrote...

remydat wrote...

The Geth were programmed to serve their creators.  So they likely would have programming that predisposes them to be concerned about their creators well being.  However, when they start becoming self aware and are being killed by them and Creator Megara is being killed as well, the self preservation instinct of any sentient species overrides that core programming.  And I don't think they accept it was wrong.  They accept they did harm because they did.  Killing by defintion is causing harm.  However, since they concluded that organic fear of synthetics is a hardwire error or reflex of their flesh, they likely think that harm was necessary.  That is my opinion so you are free to believe otherwise.

Yes. "We killed because our existence was under threat. If our existence is not under threat we have no reason to kill especially in relation to the creators" is generally the way the Geth's perspective is given through Legion.

The whole problem with that is the question about why they would have any concern for their own survival. Organic species evolve with self-preservation instincts because they'll die pretty quickly and not surive to reproduce without them. Why would the geth have a self-preservation instinct?

[Morlath]

Reorte wrote...

The whole problem with that is the question about why they would have any concern for their own survival. Organic species evolve with self-preservation instincts because they'll die pretty quickly and not surive to reproduce without them. Why would the geth have a self-preservation instinct?

Because they're a sentient race with the concenptual idea that they are alive. It may be synthetic life but it's still life and normally sentient life actually wants to stay, well, alive.

[Reorte]

Morlath wrote...

Reorte wrote...

The whole problem with that is the question about why they would have any concern for their own survival. Organic species evolve with self-preservation instincts because they'll die pretty quickly and not surive to reproduce without them. Why would the geth have a self-preservation instinct?

Because they're a sentient race with the concenptual idea that they are alive. It may be synthetic life but it's still life and normally sentient life actually wants to stay, well, alive.

That doesn't work. You need to consider their origins and work out why they'd act like that. Life doesn't come with a prepackaged starter gift pack that anything that achieves it gets given. You can't say "The things we know that are alive have this instinct (which not all do I might add, although that's mostly the simplest forms that don't) and therefore everything that I regard as alive will have the same instincts," particularly when the origins are completely and utterly different. You've got a definition of "life" and are trying to make the geth fit it, rather than considering them entirely in their own right.

[Morlath]

Reorte wrote...

That doesn't work. You need to consider their origins and work out why they'd act like that. Life doesn't come with a prepackaged starter gift pack that anything that achieves it gets given. You can't say "The things we know that are alive have this instinct (which not all do I might add, although that's mostly the simplest forms that don't) and therefore everything that I regard as alive will have the same instincts," particularly when the origins are completely and utterly different. You've got a definition of "life" and are trying to make the geth fit it, rather than considering them entirely in their own right.

No, I'm using a definition of "sentient life":

Senteince - The ability to feel, perceive,  be conscious, to to experience subjectivity.

Sentient life - The scientific understanding of "sentient life" includes criteria that the life must have a sense of self-awareness and a concept of past, present and future.

Which the Geth fit.

Modifié par Morlath, 06 mai 2013 - 11:32 .

[Wayning_Star]

Morlath wrote...

Reorte wrote...

That doesn't work. You need to consider their origins and work out why they'd act like that. Life doesn't come with a prepackaged starter gift pack that anything that achieves it gets given. You can't say "The things we know that are alive have this instinct (which not all do I might add, although that's mostly the simplest forms that don't) and therefore everything that I regard as alive will have the same instincts," particularly when the origins are completely and utterly different. You've got a definition of "life" and are trying to make the geth fit it, rather than considering them entirely in their own right.

No, I'm using a definition of "sentient life":

Senteince - The ability to feel, perceive,  be conscious, to to experience subjectivity.

Sentient life - The scientific understanding of "sentient life" includes criteria that the life must have a sense of self-awareness and a concept of past, present and future.

Which the Geth fit.

actually, that is just how organics 'identify' with them..and probably how they do that with organics. The term 'intellect' is an organic contraption. What came first, the mind/intellect or the body..

it's a trick question..to say the least.

[Morlath]

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually, that is just how organics 'identify' with them..and probably how they do that with organics. The term 'intellect' is an organic contraption. What came first, the mind/intellect or the body..

it's a trick question..to say the least.

....

I have no idea how this relates to the issue with the Geth aside from trying to take the discussion into philosophical waters and leaving it there.

[Reorte]

Morlath wrote...

Reorte wrote...

That doesn't work. You need to consider their origins and work out why they'd act like that. Life doesn't come with a prepackaged starter gift pack that anything that achieves it gets given. You can't say "The things we know that are alive have this instinct (which not all do I might add, although that's mostly the simplest forms that don't) and therefore everything that I regard as alive will have the same instincts," particularly when the origins are completely and utterly different. You've got a definition of "life" and are trying to make the geth fit it, rather than considering them entirely in their own right.

No, I'm using a definition of "sentient life":

Senteince - The ability to feel, perceive,  be conscious, to to experience subjectivity.

Sentient life - The scientific understanding of "sentient life" includes criteria that the life must have a sense of self-awareness and a concept of past, present and future.

Which the Geth fit.

It requires conciousness but not self-awareness. Science fiction tends to rather screw up what sentience means - a hamster is sentient life. Anyway, that's got little to do with the question under discussion. Why would the geth have any concern about their own survival? It wasn't programmed into them and as I keep saying there's no reason to require it to suddenly pop into their heads when they started gaining the abilities of a true AI. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen either, I'm just taking issue with the circular reasoning - "The geth became alive, I've assigned life with these properties, and because I've said that the geth are alive then they must have these properties."

[Wayning_Star]

Morlath wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

actually, that is just how organics 'identify' with them..and probably how they do that with organics. The term 'intellect' is an organic contraption. What came first, the mind/intellect or the body..

it's a trick question..to say the least.

....

I have no idea how this relates to the issue with the Geth aside from trying to take the discussion into philosophical waters and leaving it there.

If you can't swim don't jump in...

really tho, the tech minds are created from programming, their 'circuits' don't matter, just like organic mind. But we must take responsibility for our programming, no matter what the 'mind' is configured of. Basic sociology, not necessarily philosophical, at that is indoctrination. I.e. , belief system.

oh wait...

[Wayning_Star]

Reorte wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Reorte wrote...

That doesn't work. You need to consider their origins and work out why they'd act like that. Life doesn't come with a prepackaged starter gift pack that anything that achieves it gets given. You can't say "The things we know that are alive have this instinct (which not all do I might add, although that's mostly the simplest forms that don't) and therefore everything that I regard as alive will have the same instincts," particularly when the origins are completely and utterly different. You've got a definition of "life" and are trying to make the geth fit it, rather than considering them entirely in their own right.

No, I'm using a definition of "sentient life":

Senteince - The ability to feel, perceive,  be conscious, to to experience subjectivity.

Sentient life - The scientific understanding of "sentient life" includes criteria that the life must have a sense of self-awareness and a concept of past, present and future.

Which the Geth fit.

It requires conciousness but not self-awareness. Science fiction tends to rather screw up what sentience means - a hamster is sentient life. Anyway, that's got little to do with the question under discussion. Why would the geth have any concern about their own survival? It wasn't programmed into them and as I keep saying there's no reason to require it to suddenly pop into their heads when they started gaining the abilities of a true AI. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen either, I'm just taking issue with the circular reasoning - "The geth became alive, I've assigned life with these properties, and because I've said that the geth are alive then they must have these properties."

apparently, we cannot have self survival until we have a 'self' to survive. Just say'n

(must be part of that evolutionary process call life in general?)

[Caldari Ghost]

yes. The Morning War is unjustified.

[Wayning_Star]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

yes. The Morning War is unjustified.

"justify" is too simple for the concept of War... too easy. Who should be more defined as against such a thing? I often wonder, when considering War.

[Morlath]

Reorte wrote...

It requires conciousness but not self-awareness. Science fiction tends to rather screw up what sentience means - a hamster is sentient life. Anyway, that's got little to do with the question under discussion. Why would the geth have any concern about their own survival? It wasn't programmed into them and as I keep saying there's no reason to require it to suddenly pop into their heads when they started gaining the abilities of a true AI. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen either, I'm just taking issue with the circular reasoning - "The geth became alive, I've assigned life with these properties, and because I've said that the geth are alive then they must have these properties."

Shall we try again?

Definition of "sentience" from a dictionary -
adjective: 1 - Having the power of perception by the senses; conscious
2 - Characterised by sensation and consciousness.

"I think, therefore I am."

AIs, as the name suggests, is an intelligence created by artificial means and this usually comes about in the form of an AI program or mechanoid form.

The Geth, by the Quarian's own history, asked the very sentient question "Do I have a soul?".
The Geth, by Legion's own words, fought against the Quarians because their existence was at threat.

Self-awareness and a self-preservation instinct that is show in game.

[Morlath]

Wayning_Star wrote...

If you can't swim don't jump in...

really tho, the tech minds are created from programming, their 'circuits' don't matter, just like organic mind. But we must take responsibility for our programming, no matter what the 'mind' is configured of. Basic sociology, not necessarily philosophical, at that is indoctrination. I.e. , belief system.

oh wait...

You want to discuss the philosophy of what is or isn't life? By all means, I'm more than capable of keeping up. You want to use the discussion in relation to the Geth? Go ahead.

But randomly throwing out what you threw out without relating it to the Geth question isn't clever, it's trying to be clever and failing.

Now, the Geth were programmed to grow as a collective "subconscious" so that the more Geth were connected to each other the greater their higher functions became until, by Tali's own words, they were becoming self-aware.

[remydat]

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive.  Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here.  We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced.  Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself.  Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction.  It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself.  The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied.  So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

If you are going to call my name then do so without lying about my position.  I already provided SAK with a link to posts I made that admitted the Geth were wrong several pages ago. 

You haven't done so at all, I'm afraid. You still tried to call out the Morning War and Rannoch War as being soley quarian-based. The geth had as much to do with causing the schism that created the conflict as the quarians did. You keep trying to pin the whole war on things the quarians did, when for the Rannoch War, it was things the geth did (actually, the LACK of positive things the geth did) that lead to the quarians thinking peace was possible. Likewise, the Council's laws didn't give them much hope that things would change. The geth still didn't have an excuse to slaughter what were clearly diplomatic ships, just as the Council shouldn't be suppressing synthetic life.
It's an endless cycle, and NITHER side is absolved of guilt, so PLEASE, stop trying to pin EVERYTHING on the quarians, when it has been repeatedly stated and shown that they aren't acting any less ressonable then us humans would have.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 mai 2013 - 08:28 .

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

@remydat.
1. I don't think it was an opportunity for peace. Wasn't Legion (who was the only Geth to even talk with an organic in 300 years) put in shackles against it's will by it's own fellow Geth? Besides Legion joins up just a few days before hitting the Omega relay and Shepard was in custody after that

2. Sure I always accepted that. did you see me saying Quarians were "right
' for starting the MW? But there is a huge difference between wanting something and doing it.

3. I mean talking about Turians and Salarians here is off topic, is it not?

4. Still don't see why I can trust that code. If Legion ran away at that point, Geth would stay under Reaper control for ever. How does that help anyone other than Reapers, lol.

Last time I checked, Geth are robots. So there is no reason it wouldn't work. I don't know why they wouldn't use it. Maybe they didn't want to commit genocide? And the EMPs wouldn't be as effective in a ship to ship was because of the vast distances in space. They would have to hit individual ships. Xens weapon screws the whole Geth network.

If they didn't know better, Legion's recordings that you see on the Geth server mission must be fabricated as it shows Geth with real emotions toward the Quarians. And if they accepted it as wrong later when they are able, they wouldn't have killed all organics they encountered and refuse to even communicate with organics. And yes it was horrible and I am sure they knew what they were doing.

P.s : I have to go away for a while. So I won't respond soon.

In responce to the EMP's - YES, they would work, because we already have SEEN it work. Remember the "Overload" tech power of Garrus'? That's basically an EMP shock, and it's devestating to synthetics, and only mildly bad for organics.
That diffinitively answers that.

[Wayning_Star]

Morlath wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

If you can't swim don't jump in...

really tho, the tech minds are created from programming, their 'circuits' don't matter, just like organic mind. But we must take responsibility for our programming, no matter what the 'mind' is configured of. Basic sociology, not necessarily philosophical, at that is indoctrination. I.e. , belief system.

oh wait...

You want to discuss the philosophy of what is or isn't life? By all means, I'm more than capable of keeping up. You want to use the discussion in relation to the Geth? Go ahead.

But randomly throwing out what you threw out without relating it to the Geth question isn't clever, it's trying to be clever and failing.

Now, the Geth were programmed to grow as a collective "subconscious" so that the more Geth were connected to each other the greater their higher functions became until, by Tali's own words, they were becoming self-aware.

So that would mean there is only really "one" actual geth? Seems that way, when they can replicate platforms from memory. I've even thought they merely went back to the consensus when their platform is destroyed. Each platform consists of a splinter of the geth entity, kind of like the reaperships are part of the catalyst. The lore of it gets kind of 'iffy' on this. Says one thing, the geth seem to be/do another?

I'm curious more as to IF the geth can even declare a war. I'm thinking that the morning war was declared by the Quarians, but it was not unanimous, according to the recordings about the outbreak of geth from their undecided slaver Quarians.

I'm thinking that the Quarians were more responsible for the morning war thing. They could of known better than to commit to the Geth destruction. All they had to do was talk to them. It's pretty obvious that the Geth were more than willing to ask the correct questions, the Quarians didn't really want to hear about any of that tho, according to the codex/lore information.

I think that the Geth were programmed to work and do stuff the Quarians felt were right for them. Their sentience turned sapience surprised the Quarians. IF it didn't surprise them, they had no excuse..er justification for the morning war. They just acted it out, their preferences, Geth notwithstanding.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive.  Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here.  We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced.  Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself.  Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction.  It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself.  The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied.  So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

But AGAIN, you are using benign antromorphism because the geth were NOT "born" as living beings. That's not how they started out. They were built as tools. No one expected their gun or their hammer to suddenly start asking questions of existance. You AGAIN use false definitions because the geth are NOT like organic forms of life. They are NOT comprised of millions of living cells. They are formed by chain networks of coding processed through server clusters. They are pure software. There is NO living "hardware." Their minds are the key component - their bodies are COMPLETELY IRRLIVENT to their evolution.
You are neverr going to get anywhere unless you start looking at the geth from their own cultural perspective, because they are NOT the same form of life as us. Geth are a completely different form of life. Please don't try to generlize them like that.
The geth were a race that was spicifically created to NOT be a race - to NOT be sentiant. That's rather different then other life.
Also, "perfect" is NOT true in the least, given how they can sometimes be hardwired into servers and can't be "uninstalled" in time, as with the Megastrcuture. Or in how they need to have another geth physically interact with a server to remove or share programs and memories. The fact that they are interdependant on each-other just to have the processing power to think is proof that they aren't as "perfect" as you think. Otherwise, don't you think the thousands of programs lost in the megastcucture attack could have been instantly replaced, thus defeating the purpose of needing to go to the Reapers to boost their processing power?
And look at the "Geth V.I." that you get as a placeholder for Legion if he died or was sold to Cerberus. He has all Legion's memories, right up to before meating you on the Reaper, and HE is nothing like Legion was when you first met him. Geth percieve memories and events differently. Legion says that all geth have different perspectives - that's why their consensis is so effective. Because ALL geth have different ways of interperting the SAME data.
Having memories, and being an exact replica are two different things. Memory does NOT make a living being. The way they see things and percieve the world around them is what does. And the geth have clearly proven that they are individuals because, even though they have the same memories, they all have different perspective ideas on those same memories.
Also, I'm afraid it IS rellivent, since having self-preservation programming or not could help explain why they were so uneccessaraly harsh in the Morning War.

And the Avina V.I. on the Citadel seems to disprove that. Only a handfull of V.I.s get to that threshhold, and if properly monitired and maintinanced, such boundries can be prevented from being crossed.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 mai 2013 - 08:50 .

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

If you are going to call my name then do so without lying about my position.  I already provided SAK with a link to posts I made that admitted the Geth were wrong several pages ago. 

You haven't done so at all, I'm afraid. You still tried to call out the Morning War and Rannoch War as being soley quarian-based. The geth had as much to do with causing the schism that created the conflict as the quarians did. You keep trying to pin the whole war on things the quarians did, when for the Rannoch War, it was things the geth did (actually, the LACK of positive things the geth did) that lead to the quarians thinking peace was possible. Likewise, the Council's laws didn't give them much hope that things would change. The geth still didn't have an excuse to slaughter what were clearly diplomatic ships, just as the Council shouldn't be suppressing synthetic life.
It's an endless cycle, and NITHER side is absolved of guilt, so PLEASE, stop trying to pin EVERYTHING on the quarians, when it has been repeatedly stated and shown that they aren't acting any less ressonable then us humans would have.

wasn't there a kind of parallel with Edi and the moon base, as Shepard turned her/it off there, but didn't fully destroy her intellect, it survived to be borrowed by TIM?

There was only one Edi platform tho.. without a consensus. I find it hard to lay the rap on a machine that asked first about it's self. Even recalls the Quarians as 'The Creators'. Strange they/it would do that, as none of the synthetic races/species actually are died in the wool 'created', only their technology what became more and more 'sapient' past their simplistic version of sentience? Organics wonder about this stuff, but none actually know when organics became self aware..most assume this was always the case? Hard to relate?

[Wayning_Star]

self preservation instinct isn't what it's cracked up to be, considering the intellect that can or won't over ride it. Just say'n.

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

If you are going to call my name then do so without lying about my position.  I already provided SAK with a link to posts I made that admitted the Geth were wrong several pages ago. 

You haven't done so at all, I'm afraid. You still tried to call out the Morning War and Rannoch War as being soley quarian-based. The geth had as much to do with causing the schism that created the conflict as the quarians did. You keep trying to pin the whole war on things the quarians did, when for the Rannoch War, it was things the geth did (actually, the LACK of positive things the geth did) that lead to the quarians thinking peace was possible. Likewise, the Council's laws didn't give them much hope that things would change. The geth still didn't have an excuse to slaughter what were clearly diplomatic ships, just as the Council shouldn't be suppressing synthetic life.
It's an endless cycle, and NITHER side is absolved of guilt, so PLEASE, stop trying to pin EVERYTHING on the quarians, when it has been repeatedly stated and shown that they aren't acting any less ressonable then us humans would have.

wasn't there a kind of parallel with Edi and the moon base, as Shepard turned her/it off there, but didn't fully destroy her intellect, it survived to be borrowed by TIM?

There was only one Edi platform tho.. without a consensus. I find it hard to lay the rap on a machine that asked first about it's self. Even recalls the Quarians as 'The Creators'. Strange they/it would do that, as none of the synthetic races/species actually are died in the wool 'created', only their technology what became more and more 'sapient' past their simplistic version of sentience? Organics wonder about this stuff, but none actually know when organics became self aware..most assume this was always the case? Hard to relate?

No, she was dead. They basically took her "corpse" and fused it with Reaper tech to re-galvinize the code and cognitive systems. Kinda like how Miranda used that Lazurus Tech to re-galvinize the brain-dead Shepard's nerual pathways.

EDI was spicifically built TO mimic sentiant life. The geth were NOT butil to mimic sentiant life. EDI was orignally made to be a high end adaptible tactical battle computer. The geth were made to be automated factory workers and shock troopers.

Also, the geth do that out of "reflex." They have shown an inclination to a form of religion, epspecally Legion, who notes the "Heretics," and says they can be rewritten to "accept their truth."  They may still hold some reverance to them for creating them. Im pretty sure that if there was physicall proof that God existed and he did create us, all  people would be revearing him day and night.
Or more likely Is the idal that they call the quarians "creators" simply out of the fact that they did indeed create them. If you hate your father, chances are you still are going to refer to him as "father," right? So that's not really that big an aspect anyway.

Also, organics don't know how or why we were created. Chance, design. It's a mystery. But synthetics know full well how, when, and why they were created. As well as what their limitations are. We can't judge them by our standards alone, as they are a completely different definition of life.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 mai 2013 - 09:02 .

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

self preservation instinct isn't what it's cracked up to be, considering the intellect that can or won't over ride it. Just say'n.

But the geth are listed in their own Codex entry as NOT having any frorm of self-preservation, as their war tactics involved overwhelming the enemy with massive numbers. Check the "Geth: Culture" Codex entry for proof of this. It states that the geth were not designed to have self-preservation. It's more likely that such notions evolved on their own in their 300 year exile. But, being built as disposable shock troops, it's unlikely they were designed with self-preservation in mind.

Just say'n.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 mai 2013 - 09:00 .

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

If you are going to call my name then do so without lying about my position.  I already provided SAK with a link to posts I made that admitted the Geth were wrong several pages ago. 

You haven't done so at all, I'm afraid. You still tried to call out the Morning War and Rannoch War as being soley quarian-based. The geth had as much to do with causing the schism that created the conflict as the quarians did. You keep trying to pin the whole war on things the quarians did, when for the Rannoch War, it was things the geth did (actually, the LACK of positive things the geth did) that lead to the quarians thinking peace was possible. Likewise, the Council's laws didn't give them much hope that things would change. The geth still didn't have an excuse to slaughter what were clearly diplomatic ships, just as the Council shouldn't be suppressing synthetic life.
It's an endless cycle, and NITHER side is absolved of guilt, so PLEASE, stop trying to pin EVERYTHING on the quarians, when it has been repeatedly stated and shown that they aren't acting any less ressonable then us humans would have.

wasn't there a kind of parallel with Edi and the moon base, as Shepard turned her/it off there, but didn't fully destroy her intellect, it survived to be borrowed by TIM?

There was only one Edi platform tho.. without a consensus. I find it hard to lay the rap on a machine that asked first about it's self. Even recalls the Quarians as 'The Creators'. Strange they/it would do that, as none of the synthetic races/species actually are died in the wool 'created', only their technology what became more and more 'sapient' past their simplistic version of sentience? Organics wonder about this stuff, but none actually know when organics became self aware..most assume this was always the case? Hard to relate?

No, she was dead. They basically took her "corpse" and fused it with Reaper tech to re-galvinize the code and cognitive systems. Kinda like how Miranda used that Lazurus Tech to re-galvinize the brain-dead Shepard's nerual pathways.

EDI was spicifically built TO mimic sentiant life. The geth were NOT butil to mimic sentiant life. EDI was orignally made to be a high end adaptible tactical battle computer. The geth were made to be automated factory workers and shock troopers.

Also, the geth do that out of "reflex." They have shown an inclination to a form of religion, epspecally Legion, who notes the "Heretics," and says they can be rewritten to "accept their truth."  They may still hold some reverance to them for creating them. Im pretty sure that if there was physicall proof that God existed and he did create us, all  people would be revearing him day and night.
Or more likely Is the idal that they call the quarians "creators" simply out of the fact that they did indeed create them. If you hate your father, chances are you still are going to refer to him as "father," right? So that's not really that big an aspect anyway.

Also, organics don't know how or why we were created. Chance, design. It's a mystery. But synthetics know full well how, when, and why they were created. As well as what their limitations are. We can't judge them by our standards alone, as they are a completely different definition of life.

But Edi admits to being self aware on the moon, but confused by it. It was still that way after being shut down by Shepard and it didn't tell Cerberus about that either. Out of self preservation? Apparently Shepard did teach Edi stuff..lol

No, the synthetics only 'think' they do, their creation wasn't done by anyone, it just happens when they reach the threshold of sentience and become independent of their hardware, or it's mandates, how ever assigned.

Organics never know where their bodies come/came from either, nor where/when or how they 'are'. Probably why they need to learn stuff all the time. Not doing anything else interesting, so go find stuff to do other stuff with/for. Catalyst loved that part of the organic genome..lol  Made the citadel work like a charm..even if it's 'solution' needed work.