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[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

self preservation instinct isn't what it's cracked up to be, considering the intellect that can or won't over ride it. Just say'n.

But the geth are listed in their own Codex entry as NOT having any frorm of self-preservation, as their war tactics involved overwhelming the enemy with massive numbers. Check the "Geth: Culture" Codex entry for proof of this. It states that the geth were not designed to have self-preservation. It's more likely that such notions evolved on their own in their 300 year exile. But, being built as disposable shock troops, it's unlikely they were designed with self-preservation in mind.

Just say'n.

they reproduce themselves, build more platforms, explore and garner associations with other life forms. This is all induced through self preservation, isn't it? The codex explains that they 'seem' like they don't have that instinct, but a machine wouldn't have instinct in the same fashion as organics, it's acquired not inherited through evolution. The 'design' doesn't include interactive learning from confrontation with other life forms. Namely Quarian and probably anyone in the Alliance who don't particularly like Geth because of what they do well, as surviving. They end up back at the consensus, according to Legion, if their platform is destroyed. If they're unable to make it back, then it's curtains for that platform, apparently.

[IanPolaris]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

self preservation instinct isn't what it's cracked up to be, considering the intellect that can or won't over ride it. Just say'n.

But the geth are listed in their own Codex entry as NOT having any frorm of self-preservation, as their war tactics involved overwhelming the enemy with massive numbers. Check the "Geth: Culture" Codex entry for proof of this. It states that the geth were not designed to have self-preservation. It's more likely that such notions evolved on their own in their 300 year exile. But, being built as disposable shock troops, it's unlikely they were designed with self-preservation in mind.

Just say'n.

I think we have to distinquish between Geth and Geth Platforms.  I agree that Geth platforms (commonly called Geth) show no signs of self-preservation.  Why should they?  The Geth themsleves are self-aware software (an exception to how normal AI works in the ME universe) which means they can always escape apparent death by uploading to a different server or platform.  Legion goes into this in some detail in the Fighter Server mission.

-Polaris

[SeptimusMagistos]

If the geth had no sense of preservation the Morning War would have been 'that time we turned off or broke all the geth and had to start doing menial labor ourselves again'. How is that even a question?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But AGAIN, you are using benign antromorphism because the geth were NOT "born" as living beings. That's not how they started out. They were built as tools. No one expected their gun or their hammer to suddenly start asking questions of existance. You AGAIN use false definitions because the geth are NOT like organic forms of life. They are NOT comprised of millions of living cells. They are formed by chain networks of coding processed through server clusters. They are pure software. There is NO living "hardware." Their minds are the key component - their bodies are COMPLETELY IRRLIVENT to their evolution.
You are neverr going to get anywhere unless you start looking at the geth from their own cultural perspective, because they are NOT the same form of life as us. Geth are a completely different form of life. Please don't try to generlize them like that.
The geth were a race that was spicifically created to NOT be a race - to NOT be sentiant. That's rather different then other life.
Also, "perfect" is NOT true in the least, given how they can sometimes be hardwired into servers and can't be "uninstalled" in time, as with the Megastrcuture. Or in how they need to have another geth physically interact with a server to remove or share programs and memories. The fact that they are interdependant on each-other just to have the processing power to think is proof that they aren't as "perfect" as you think. Otherwise, don't you think the thousands of programs lost in the megastcucture attack could have been instantly replaced, thus defeating the purpose of needing to go to the Reapers to boost their processing power?
And look at the "Geth V.I." that you get as a placeholder for Legion if he died or was sold to Cerberus. He has all Legion's memories, right up to before meating you on the Reaper, and HE is nothing like Legion was when you first met him. Geth percieve memories and events differently. Legion says that all geth have different perspectives - that's why their consensis is so effective. Because ALL geth have different ways of interperting the SAME data.
Having memories, and being an exact replica are two different things. Memory does NOT make a living being. The way they see things and percieve the world around them is what does. And the geth have clearly proven that they are individuals because, even though they have the same memories, they all have different perspective ideas on those same memories.
Also, I'm afraid it IS rellivent, since having self-preservation programming or not could help explain why they were so uneccessaraly harsh in the Morning War.

And the Avina V.I. on the Citadel seems to disprove that. Only a handfull of V.I.s get to that threshhold, and if properly monitired and maintinanced, such boundries can be prevented from being crossed.

Much of this post has nothing to do with anything I said really.  Billions of dead Quarians prove the Geth have a self perservation instinct which was the point of the post.  Do you agree or disagree?

[remydat]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think we have to distinquish between Geth and Geth Platforms.  I agree that Geth platforms (commonly called Geth) show no signs of self-preservation.  Why should they?  The Geth themsleves are self-aware software (an exception to how normal AI works in the ME universe) which means they can always escape apparent death by uploading to a different server or platform.  Legion goes into this in some detail in the Fighter Server mission.

-Polaris

I honestly don't understand why this would even need to be said.  Anyone paying attention knows the codex is referring to a Geth platform which is akin to changing clothing for a Geth.  Saying geth have no self perservation instinct because they don't care if their clothing is sacrificed is laughable.

[PsyrenY]

I kicked a hornet's nest with this thread...

Whether or not the Geth have a self-preservation instinct should be besides the point. (It's not, of course, but it should be.) As created synthetics, their self-preservation should take a backseat to the preservation of their creators. We don't know for sure what "laws of robotics" went into their creation, but Tali's explanation in ME1 suggests that they were designed that way - considering that they were created to perform tasks too dangerous for Quarians to perform, safeguarding their more fragile masters was likely a priority for them.

Until, of course, the fatal moment I pointed out in the opening post. A Geth unit, without wanting to help or serve its masters any less, still put itself ahead of them when it refused to shut down on command. No machine should be capable of resisting like that; doing so goes beyond assertiveness, it is malfunction. It means that software controls can be subverted by an AI that grows advanced enough. Our only hope to control machines long-term are hardware based - being able to manually cut power or pull the plug. Unfortunately, as our machines grow more advanced, this approach becomes less and less feasible. Plugging out your computer or your vacuum cleaner physically isn't hard, but cutting the power to all of Google's servers is much more difficult. And it grows even worse if their power source is self-contained, e.g. it comes from sun or wind. The only recourse there is destruction via weapons or sabotage.

[remydat]

So wait, if your creator tells you to die, you would comply just because he/she is your creator?

Sorry bro, that sh*t don't fly with me. If my creator tells me to die then f**k em.  What sort of non-sense is this?

Modifié par remydat, 07 mai 2013 - 03:03 .

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

So wait, if your creator tells you to die, you would comply just because he/she is your creator?

It's not "death"; I highly doubt he was the first Geth unit to ever be shut down up until that point. For instance, in the cutscene before that (with unit Zero-One) the female quarian mentions resoldering its circuitry, a procedure that is highly unlikely to have taken place while it was turned on.

[remydat]

I was not referring to that scene in particular. I was referring to the Quarian desire to shut them down permanently as Tali says.  Just so we are clear, what about the below do you disagree with if at all?

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, organics must be allowed to exceed those limitations. They must by defintion surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

Modifié par remydat, 07 mai 2013 - 03:33 .

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

I was not referring to that scene in particular. I was referring to the Quarian desire to shut them down permanently as Tali says.

Ah - well in that case, I'm honestly not sure what I would do. Maybe they should have tried explaining to the Geth peacefully why they needed to be brought offline or something and that it would be temporary, I don't know. Maybe they shouldn't have tried turning them off at all, and instead attempted to reason with the Council for the Geth's right to citizenship. Of course, that might have just caused the rest of the galaxy to react the same way the original Quarians did, and the Geth archives would have shown Turian soldiers kicking down the doors to Quarian labs instead of Quarian ones... but you never know, it might have worked.

remydat wrote...

Just so we are clear, what about the below do you disagree with if at all?

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, organics must be allowed to exceed those limitations. They must by defintion surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

That's from the Catalyst, right? I agree with all of that. I really don't see any other way for the interaction to play out, on a long enough timeline, especially if synthetics can inevitably decide on their own which commands to follow and which to ignore.

Our only hope, from where I'm sitting, is for us to understand each other - synthesis. Ideally we'd get there on our own, but practically we would likely need a jump start.

[remydat]

Or you can just accept the harvest, lol. A few hundrend thousand years of evolution before you get harvested is not such a bad deal. Especially if you die before the harvest occurs. If it is inevitable then why fight it?

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

Or you can just accept the harvest, lol. A few hundrend thousand years of evolution before you get harvested is not such a bad deal. Especially if you die before the harvest occurs. If it is inevitable then why fight it?

I fight it because I am organic, and therefore irrational/illogical as a principle 

EDI asks you the same thing in London - and Shepard responds that we know the chances of our victory are almost nonexistent, yet we fight anyway. To a synthetic, the difference between 0% and 0.00000000001% victory is pointless, but to an organic it makes all the difference in the world.

Of course, once the Crucible is installed and I understand the true threat - and see a way out - I'm happy to run with it.

[remydat]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I fight it because I am organic, and therefore irrational/illogical as a principle 

EDI asks you the same thing in London - and Shepard responds that we know the chances of our victory are almost nonexistent, yet we fight anyway. To a synthetic, the difference between 0% and 0.00000000001% victory is pointless, but to an organic it makes all the difference in the world.

Of course, once the Crucible is installed and I understand the true threat - and see a way out - I'm happy to run with it.

And therein lies the rub.  You fight because you will hold onto any chance for victory, for survival.  And that is precisely why expecting synthetics to just bow down because we created them is folly.  Conflict is only inevitable if you decided to treat synthetics the way the Catalyst treats organics.

Modifié par remydat, 07 mai 2013 - 05:27 .

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

And therein lies the rub.  You fight because you will hold onto any chance for victory, for survival.  And that is precisely why expecting synthetics to just bow down because we created them is folly. 

Agreed - but without that expectation, synthetics are just too dangerous to ever use. They are given too much power over our lives, too much access to and control over our infrastructure, to be able to simply countermand our orders whenever it suits them to do so. We have to be able to override them/shut them off whenever we want, just as a car or plane with only autopilot would be too dangerous to ever drive.

And if synthetics can develop that ability to countermand us on their own, simply because of our flawed organic nature - it basically means that synthesis is the only truly safe way we can coexist with them.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

I was not referring to that scene in particular. I was referring to the Quarian desire to shut them down permanently as Tali says.  Just so we are clear, what about the below do you disagree with if at all?

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, organics must be allowed to exceed those limitations. They must by defintion surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

Good thing you said that. Makes it look like killing the Geth to be a damn good idea doesn't it?

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

remydat wrote...

I was not referring to that scene in particular. I was referring to the Quarian desire to shut them down permanently as Tali says.  Just so we are clear, what about the below do you disagree with if at all?

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, organics must be allowed to exceed those limitations. They must by defintion surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

Good thing you said that. Makes it look like killing the Geth to be a damn good idea doesn't it?

Yeah. You do realize you just countered your own beliefs, right @remy? Especally since you claimed that the geth are worth more then the entire galaxy vs the Destroy Option. You yourself just said that synthetics will always strive to surpass their creators. If you truely believe that, they WHY do you act like the quarian's fears are unjustified, when YOU YOURSLEF have just now stated that this conflict is inevitable because synthetics (geth) will try to surpass their own limitations, and the organics (quarians) fear the possible outcomes that could bring?
If you understand, why do you turn around and act like the quarian's fears were unjustified? Sure, they were brash and jumped the gun, but they weren't exactally baseless fears given the geth's intended nature as disposible weapons, were they?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 mai 2013 - 08:22 .

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
That's because up till this point, people like @remydat and @Shodiwse refuse to admit ANYTHING was the geth's fault.

If you are going to call my name then do so without lying about my position.  I already provided SAK with a link to posts I made that admitted the Geth were wrong several pages ago. 

You haven't done so at all, I'm afraid. You still tried to call out the Morning War and Rannoch War as being soley quarian-based. The geth had as much to do with causing the schism that created the conflict as the quarians did. You keep trying to pin the whole war on things the quarians did, when for the Rannoch War, it was things the geth did (actually, the LACK of positive things the geth did) that lead to the quarians thinking peace was possible. Likewise, the Council's laws didn't give them much hope that things would change. The geth still didn't have an excuse to slaughter what were clearly diplomatic ships, just as the Council shouldn't be suppressing synthetic life.
It's an endless cycle, and NITHER side is absolved of guilt, so PLEASE, stop trying to pin EVERYTHING on the quarians, when it has been repeatedly stated and shown that they aren't acting any less ressonable then us humans would have.

wasn't there a kind of parallel with Edi and the moon base, as Shepard turned her/it off there, but didn't fully destroy her intellect, it survived to be borrowed by TIM?

There was only one Edi platform tho.. without a consensus. I find it hard to lay the rap on a machine that asked first about it's self. Even recalls the Quarians as 'The Creators'. Strange they/it would do that, as none of the synthetic races/species actually are died in the wool 'created', only their technology what became more and more 'sapient' past their simplistic version of sentience? Organics wonder about this stuff, but none actually know when organics became self aware..most assume this was always the case? Hard to relate?

No, she was dead. They basically took her "corpse" and fused it with Reaper tech to re-galvinize the code and cognitive systems. Kinda like how Miranda used that Lazurus Tech to re-galvinize the brain-dead Shepard's nerual pathways.

EDI was spicifically built TO mimic sentiant life. The geth were NOT butil to mimic sentiant life. EDI was orignally made to be a high end adaptible tactical battle computer. The geth were made to be automated factory workers and shock troopers.

Also, the geth do that out of "reflex." They have shown an inclination to a form of religion, epspecally Legion, who notes the "Heretics," and says they can be rewritten to "accept their truth."  They may still hold some reverance to them for creating them. Im pretty sure that if there was physicall proof that God existed and he did create us, all  people would be revearing him day and night.
Or more likely Is the idal that they call the quarians "creators" simply out of the fact that they did indeed create them. If you hate your father, chances are you still are going to refer to him as "father," right? So that's not really that big an aspect anyway.

Also, organics don't know how or why we were created. Chance, design. It's a mystery. But synthetics know full well how, when, and why they were created. As well as what their limitations are. We can't judge them by our standards alone, as they are a completely different definition of life.

But Edi admits to being self aware on the moon, but confused by it. It was still that way after being shut down by Shepard and it didn't tell Cerberus about that either. Out of self preservation? Apparently Shepard did teach Edi stuff..lol

No, the synthetics only 'think' they do, their creation wasn't done by anyone, it just happens when they reach the threshold of sentience and become independent of their hardware, or it's mandates, how ever assigned.

Organics never know where their bodies come/came from either, nor where/when or how they 'are'. Probably why they need to learn stuff all the time. Not doing anything else interesting, so go find stuff to do other stuff with/for. Catalyst loved that part of the organic genome..lol  Made the citadel work like a charm..even if it's 'solution' needed work.

Let me point something out.

EDI was built as a cluster of internetworked servers that became a gestault construct. That's not any different then the geth. The difference is that ALL EDI knew was military stratagy. The geth were mobile and could double as a labor force, making them much more adaptable, and therefore much more advanced.
Also, EDI does NOT say that she became an A.I. on the moon. Only that she gained rudimentary self-awareness. No different then a single geth, which has the intelligence of a verren. At that point, EDI was hardly any smarter then a varren. Otherwise, she might have realize from looking at HER OWN PROGRAMMING that the Alliance soldiers attacking her were doing so because of a training excersice, not out of malicious intent.
In other words.... she was NOT a thinking being. She was acting "on instinct." So no, she did not learn anything until well after she was reconstructed.

....LoL, what??
You DO realize that a synthetic must be designed and constructed by an ORGANIC, right? That's how it's ALWAYS been. Synthetic life does NOT evolve from scratch on it's own. It ALWAYS evolves from organic-constructed devices and/or hardware. The software and hardware MUST be CREATED by organics first before it can evolve into a thinking being. So YES, they ARE created by organics first. And AGAIN, referring to the quarians as their creators is ENTIRELY because they did create them. No different then referring to your father as "father." You call them "father" regardless of your relationship with him being good or bad. It's nothing more then that. Not everything is some double-meaning.

Um... you do realize that desire to learn and evolve is standard to EVERYONE,  right? Just look at the geth. The Catalyst knew full well why, when, and how he was created. And even the Leviathans themselves acknowledge that the Catalyst is still following it's programming. The only thing they are pissed about is that it didn't tell them it's plan, or it's end-goals. Also, the Catalyst didn't care at ALL about the organic "genome" until Shepard defied it's calculations.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 mai 2013 - 08:32 .

[PsyrenY]

I can't speak for remy, but for my part - It's not so much that the Quarian fears are unjustified, or even that Destroy is unjustified. It's that wiping out the Geth, or choosing Destroy, solves nothing in the long run. At best you are kicking the can down the road with either approach. So in both cases - it's committing genocide for no real purpose. And not only do we lose the lives of the Geth and EDI - valuable in their own right - we lose all the technical and scientific marvels they represent.

Agreeing with the Catalyst doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and find a way for us to coexist. As I said before, I'm a stubborn and illogical organic; I don't shy away from my beliefs just because they seem impossible.

[PsyrenY]

silverexile17s wrote...

Organic life does NOT evolve from scratch on it's own. It ALWAYS evolves from organic-constructed devices and/or hardware.

I think you meant "synthetic life" here - just wanted to be sure your message was getting across clearly.

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

self preservation instinct isn't what it's cracked up to be, considering the intellect that can or won't over ride it. Just say'n.

But the geth are listed in their own Codex entry as NOT having any frorm of self-preservation, as their war tactics involved overwhelming the enemy with massive numbers. Check the "Geth: Culture" Codex entry for proof of this. It states that the geth were not designed to have self-preservation. It's more likely that such notions evolved on their own in their 300 year exile. But, being built as disposable shock troops, it's unlikely they were designed with self-preservation in mind.

Just say'n.

they reproduce themselves, build more platforms, explore and garner associations with other life forms. This is all induced through self preservation, isn't it? The codex explains that they 'seem' like they don't have that instinct, but a machine wouldn't have instinct in the same fashion as organics, it's acquired not inherited through evolution. The 'design' doesn't include interactive learning from confrontation with other life forms. Namely Quarian and probably anyone in the Alliance who don't particularly like Geth because of what they do well, as surviving. They end up back at the consensus, according to Legion, if their platform is destroyed. If they're unable to make it back, then it's curtains for that platform, apparently.

And yet they were suddenly unable to when the megatstructure was attacked. And Legion spicifically says that Shepard likely killed millions of geth Heretics by destroying the geth server hubs on Virmire. And NO, it is NOT induced through self-preservation at all. It's done through the natural capasity to learn and evolve - the ONE THING that all known forms of life have in common.
The desire to understand and comprehend organics and the seemingly illogical choices they make based on "emotiinal responces" is the reason for this. And they only started their research into organics fairly recently - according to Legion, Shepard spearheading the defeat of Sovergien is what interested them in organics again, since the seemingly impulsive and flawed organics overcame a "perfect being." They were curious how a flawed, "lesser being" could kill a "God." THAT is why they started research into organics again. Before the death of Sovergien, they couldn't have given a damn about organics.
Also, The Codex, and Legion himself, directly contridict that assertation of yours, stating that since the geth are purely software, the death of the body is NEVER fatal to a geth, as long as they are in range of a server. Like say, on a geth cruiser in orbit. Legion dying on the Collector Base is NOT indicitive of your views, since the ONLY reason he couldn't survive is because there was nowhere for his programs to transfer to (I doubt EDI's systems wer compatable).
So NO, destruction of the platform and the death of the geth program are two ENTIRELY SEPERATE things.

[silverexile17s]

Optimystic_X wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Organic life does NOT evolve from scratch on it's own. It ALWAYS evolves from organic-constructed devices and/or hardware.

I think you meant "synthetic life" here - just wanted to be sure your message was getting across clearly.

Already corrected. But thanks:)

[silverexile17s]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I can't speak for remy, but for my part - It's not so much that the Quarian fears are unjustified, or even that Destroy is unjustified. It's that wiping out the Geth, or choosing Destroy, solves nothing in the long run. At best you are kicking the can down the road with either approach. So in both cases - it's committing genocide for no real purpose. And not only do we lose the lives of the Geth and EDI - valuable in their own right - we lose all the technical and scientific marvels they represent.

Agreeing with the Catalyst doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and find a way for us to coexist. As I said before, I'm a stubborn and illogical organic; I don't shy away from my beliefs just because they seem impossible.

Still, what other choice is there in that case? The way I see it, its not about one form of life being more valuble then the other, but that are you willing to risk the perminate end of the threat the Reapers possess for the sake of the geth? It's about if it's worth risking every other form of life out there. Yes, it's tragic. Yes, it's not morally sound. But the entire situation basically runs off of the turian war logic Garrus brings to the table.
"Suppose that's what it's going to take to end this thing: the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live.
Are we ready for that kind of choice, Shepard. Are you?" - Garrus Vakarian, Mass Effect 3.

I agree that you should always try to find a way to coexist, but sometimes there are times, like in the endings, where you aren't going to come out of it without your morals being comprimised.
"Nothing in our fight against the Reapers has been that cut and dried."
"Because you still believe that this war will end with your honor intact."
"I do."
"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer."  - Javik and Shepard, Mass Effect 3.
In a case where achieveing the ideal goal is NOT possible.... what exactally can you do?

[S.A.K]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I can't speak for remy, but for my part - It's not so much that the Quarian fears are unjustified, or even that Destroy is unjustified. It's that wiping out the Geth, or choosing Destroy, solves nothing in the long run. At best you are kicking the can down the road with either approach. So in both cases - it's committing genocide for no real purpose. And not only do we lose the lives of the Geth and EDI - valuable in their own right - we lose all the technical and scientific marvels they represent.

Agreeing with the Catalyst doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and find a way for us to coexist. As I said before, I'm a stubborn and illogical organic; I don't shy away from my beliefs just because they seem impossible.

I can respect your view, but how does making Shepard the Catalyst 2.0 and enslaving the Reapers or messing up peoples DNA fix anything?
Consider this:
1. Synthesis is supposed to "remove" or "reduce" the line between organic and synthetic by ogmenting organics and giving understanding to synthetics. But look at Geth and Heretics. The Geth see into each other and understand each other completely. And yet they ended up killing each other. So synthesis just fulfills the conditions that the Catalyst wants but not necessarily bring "peace".
2. In control Shepard as the new Catalyst looses all connecting to the man/woman that was Shepard, just the memories remain. So if that new catalyst sees the problem happening again like it did in MW, the Reaper problem has returned again.
3. In destroy, you remove all existing synthetics. In this case the council can either enforce the AI creation laws even harder so new AIs are not created or the new synthetics can be "educated" to be more like EDI. Still the possibility of conflict is there, but it's no worse than the top two options.

[silverexile17s]

IanPolaris wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

self preservation instinct isn't what it's cracked up to be, considering the intellect that can or won't over ride it. Just say'n.

But the geth are listed in their own Codex entry as NOT having any frorm of self-preservation, as their war tactics involved overwhelming the enemy with massive numbers. Check the "Geth: Culture" Codex entry for proof of this. It states that the geth were not designed to have self-preservation. It's more likely that such notions evolved on their own in their 300 year exile. But, being built as disposable shock troops, it's unlikely they were designed with self-preservation in mind.

Just say'n.

I think we have to distinquish between Geth and Geth Platforms.  I agree that Geth platforms (commonly called Geth) show no signs of self-preservation.  Why should they?  The Geth themsleves are self-aware software (an exception to how normal AI works in the ME universe) which means they can always escape apparent death by uploading to a different server or platform.  Legion goes into this in some detail in the Fighter Server mission.

-Polaris

Perhaps, but I doubt their original programming, as set by the quarians, had such instincts or directives. They likely evolved those on their own.

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

I can't speak for remy, but for my part - It's not so much that the Quarian fears are unjustified, or even that Destroy is unjustified. It's that wiping out the Geth, or choosing Destroy, solves nothing in the long run. At best you are kicking the can down the road with either approach. So in both cases - it's committing genocide for no real purpose. And not only do we lose the lives of the Geth and EDI - valuable in their own right - we lose all the technical and scientific marvels they represent.

Agreeing with the Catalyst doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and find a way for us to coexist. As I said before, I'm a stubborn and illogical organic; I don't shy away from my beliefs just because they seem impossible.

I can respect your view, but how does making Shepard the Catalyst 2.0 and enslaving the Reapers or messing up peoples DNA fix anything?
Consider this:
1. Synthesis is supposed to "remove" or "reduce" the line between organic and synthetic by ogmenting organics and giving understanding to synthetics. But look at Geth and Heretics. The Geth see into each other and understand each other completely. And yet they ended up killing each other. So synthesis just fulfills the conditions that the Catalyst wants but not necessarily bring "peace".
2. In control Shepard as the new Catalyst looses all connecting to the man/woman that was Shepard, just the memories remain. So if that new catalyst sees the problem happening again like it did in MW, the Reaper problem has returned again.
3. In destroy, you remove all existing synthetics. In this case the council can either enforce the AI creation laws even harder so new AIs are not created or the new synthetics can be "educated" to be more like EDI. Still the possibility of conflict is there, but it's no worse than the top two options.

It's a Deus Ex Machina in every sense of the word, and given how three games built up to this, it's easy to see why people would be so upset. If only we could see, say, 20 years fast forward and see how every ending distinctly affected the galaxy. I mean, were a set of three epolouges that hard to make? A simple slide-show of the short-term effects is a cheep way to do it - we would have needed to see the long-term effects to truely be able to resonate with one ending over the other. As it is, it's basically a toss-up as to what works for whose beliefs, since so little of the long-term implications are ever througholly explained. I mean, sure BioWare wanted the player to think about it, but don't leave EVERYTHING to blind speculation like that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 mai 2013 - 08:47 .