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[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But AGAIN, you are using benign antromorphism because the geth were NOT "born" as living beings. That's not how they started out. They were built as tools. No one expected their gun or their hammer to suddenly start asking questions of existance. You AGAIN use false definitions because the geth are NOT like organic forms of life. They are NOT comprised of millions of living cells. They are formed by chain networks of coding processed through server clusters. They are pure software. There is NO living "hardware." Their minds are the key component - their bodies are COMPLETELY IRRLIVENT to their evolution.
You are neverr going to get anywhere unless you start looking at the geth from their own cultural perspective, because they are NOT the same form of life as us. Geth are a completely different form of life. Please don't try to generlize them like that.
The geth were a race that was spicifically created to NOT be a race - to NOT be sentiant. That's rather different then other life.
Also, "perfect" is NOT true in the least, given how they can sometimes be hardwired into servers and can't be "uninstalled" in time, as with the Megastrcuture. Or in how they need to have another geth physically interact with a server to remove or share programs and memories. The fact that they are interdependant on each-other just to have the processing power to think is proof that they aren't as "perfect" as you think. Otherwise, don't you think the thousands of programs lost in the megastcucture attack could have been instantly replaced, thus defeating the purpose of needing to go to the Reapers to boost their processing power?
And look at the "Geth V.I." that you get as a placeholder for Legion if he died or was sold to Cerberus. He has all Legion's memories, right up to before meating you on the Reaper, and HE is nothing like Legion was when you first met him. Geth percieve memories and events differently. Legion says that all geth have different perspectives - that's why their consensis is so effective. Because ALL geth have different ways of interperting the SAME data.
Having memories, and being an exact replica are two different things. Memory does NOT make a living being. The way they see things and percieve the world around them is what does. And the geth have clearly proven that they are individuals because, even though they have the same memories, they all have different perspective ideas on those same memories.
Also, I'm afraid it IS rellivent, since having self-preservation programming or not could help explain why they were so uneccessaraly harsh in the Morning War.

And the Avina V.I. on the Citadel seems to disprove that. Only a handfull of V.I.s get to that threshhold, and if properly monitired and maintinanced, such boundries can be prevented from being crossed.

Much of this post has nothing to do with anything I said really.  Billions of dead Quarians prove the Geth have a self perservation instinct which was the point of the post.  Do you agree or disagree?

You mean you are IGNORING what I said, since you refused to include your old post. All this counters the things you listed.
The geth were made as disposible shock troops. They were NOT built to have a self-preservation instinct.
And since the CODEX ITSELF says that geth do NOT have a self-preservation instinct.... well, do the math.

[PsyrenY]

silverexile17s wrote...

Still, what other choice is there in that case? The way I see it, its not about one form of life being more valuble then the other, but that are you willing to risk the perminate end of the threat the Reapers possess for the sake of the geth? It's about if it's worth risking every other form of life out there. Yes, it's tragic. Yes, it's not morally sound. But the entire situation basically runs off of the turian war logic Garrus brings to the table.
"Suppose that's what it's going to take to end this thing: the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live.
Are we ready for that kind of choice, Shepard. Are you?" - Garrus Vakarian, Mass Effect 3.

I agree that you should always try to find a way to coexist, but sometimes there are times, like in the endings, where you aren't going to come out of it without your morals being comprimised.
"Nothing in our fight against the Reapers has been that cut and dried."
"Because you still believe that this war will end with your honor intact."
"I do."
"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer."  - Javik and Shepard, Mass Effect 3.
In a case where achieveing the ideal goal is NOT possible.... what exactally can you do?

It's about more than mere honor and trying to protect my friends though. There's also the matter of whether you believe the Catalyst, that there actually can be a worse fate out there than Reapers. After all that my Shepard has seen, he can easily believe it.

- Consider that: without Reapers, we would have been slaves to either Protheans or Leviathans, if we even managed to evolve at all before some past cycle turned Earth into a galactic resort or something.

- Consider that: Destroying the Reapers means that the next AI race we create will have no greater threat out there to unify with us against, or contrast its own thinking with.

- Consider that: Destroying all synthetics means that the next synthetic race we make will have even more reason to distrust organics the moment it begins reading up on our history.

- Consider that: the Leviathans are still out there, and with only organics left in the galaxy, we are all at risk to their powers. Consider that the planet we found them on is a LONG way away from Sol, and that by the time we restore the Relay network, they may be long gone.

You ask me what other choice there is. With Control, I would have no answer for you; only the hope that joining forces against the Reapers bought all of us - synthetics and organics - enough time to find a better solution before conflict returned, while my AI avatar hopefully retained enough of my ideals to guide the galaxy towards a more permanent solution. I would want my AI stand-in to reach out to the Geth, and explain the Catalyst's problem - and being logical synthetics, they would agree with it, and assist me in finding a way for the galaxy to reach Synthesis slowly and willingly.

Or I would simply choose it with the Crucible, since I am ready. And the rest of the galaxy can step up to the plate, or fall by the wayside.

Both approaches have risk and sacrifice. I honestly can't say which is better, only that I consider them both superior to Destroy. (And Refusal.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 07 mai 2013 - 09:11 .

[silverexile17s]

Optimystic_X wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Still, what other choice is there in that case? The way I see it, its not about one form of life being more valuble then the other, but that are you willing to risk the perminate end of the threat the Reapers possess for the sake of the geth? It's about if it's worth risking every other form of life out there. Yes, it's tragic. Yes, it's not morally sound. But the entire situation basically runs off of the turian war logic Garrus brings to the table.
"Suppose that's what it's going to take to end this thing: the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die so that twenty billion people over there can live.
Are we ready for that kind of choice, Shepard. Are you?" - Garrus Vakarian, Mass Effect 3.

I agree that you should always try to find a way to coexist, but sometimes there are times, like in the endings, where you aren't going to come out of it without your morals being comprimised.
"Nothing in our fight against the Reapers has been that cut and dried."
"Because you still believe that this war will end with your honor intact."
"I do."
"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters.
The silence is your answer."  - Javik and Shepard, Mass Effect 3.
In a case where achieveing the ideal goal is NOT possible.... what exactally can you do?

It's about more than mere honor and trying to protect my friends though. There's also the matter of whether you believe the Catalyst, that there actually can be a worse fate out there than Reapers. After all that my Shepard has seen, he can easily believe it.

- Consider that: without Reapers, we would have been slaves to either Protheans or Leviathans, if we even managed to evolve at all before some past cycle turned Earth into a galactic resort or something.

- Consider that: Destroying the Reapers means that the next AI race we create will have no greater threat out there to unify with us against, or contrast its own thinking with.

- Consider that: Destroying all synthetics means that the next synthetic race we make will have even more reason to distrust organics the moment it begins reading up on our history.

- Consider that: the Leviathans are still out there, and with only organics left in the galaxy, we are all at risk to their powers. Consider that the planet we found them on is a LONG way away from Sol, and that by the time we restore the Relay network, they may be long gone.

You ask me what other choice there is. With Control, I would have no answer for you; only the hope that joining forces against the Reapers bought all of us - synthetics and organics - enough time to find a better solution before conflict returned, while my AI avatar hopefully retained enough of my ideals to guide the galaxy towards a more permanent solution. I would want my AI stand-in to reach out to the Geth, and explain the Catalyst's problem - and being logical synthetics, they would agree with it, and assist me in finding a way for the galaxy to reach Synthesis slowly and willingly.

Or I would simply choose it with the Crucible, since I am ready. And the rest of the galaxy can step up to the plate, or fall by the wayside.

Both approaches have risk and sacrifice. I honestly can't say which is better, only that I consider them both superior to Destroy. (And Refusal.)

I don't see anything the Catalyst can GAIN from deception now. It's the end of all things, just it and Shepard. There is no reason to hide anything anymore. It's predections are bested. It's solution is flawed. It's pre-programed to solve the "problem" or organic/synthetic conflict, and to create a new solution, it's compelled by it's base programming to aid Shepard in creating a New Solution.

-Counter: You really think that people wouldn't have risen up on their own eventually? The turians didn't need synthetics to push back the krogan.
History has shown that every empire falls apart in the end, for generally the same reason - overexpansion. They become too large to support themselves, and too large to impose order on all corners of their domain. Cracks appear, which turn into fractures. Those empires would never have lasted forever. That's always what happens.

-Counter: You assume that a "super A.I." is going to come along when, after the Reaper War, I doubt that ANYONE is going to be making Synthetics of any kind for a long time. Even then, with all the cycle learned, I doubt mistakes of the past will be repeated that easily. You just said not to take stock in the Catalyst's word, yet you seem pretty convinced that his "New A.I." prediction is accturate. After all, look at this cycle. Half the reason the geth are regarded as irredimably hostile is because Reapers interfeared in their development and split a rouge faction off to attack others.

-Counter: Once again, you assume that a new synthetic race is going to be built right off the bat. Or that anyone knows that there WAS a choice for Shepard. Did you ever consider the fact that no one ever learns that the Crucible could fire in more then one way? Everyone may likely assume that Destroy is how the Crucible was supposed to work, and that destroying synthetics was an unavoidable choice. That there were other choices avalible would likely never be known. Looking at it like that, I doubt future synthetics will hate what everyone would have believed was an unavoidable consiquence of a device that no one knew would react that way.

-Counter: There are only a handfull of them, and we know where they all live. We also know the soruce of their domination over others, and can kill them from orbit via bombardment of Desponia (the water world they are on) if they ever get out of hand.
Also, you DO realize that with the relay network gone, THEY would be just as stranded on Desponia as the other races are everywhere else, right? They are organic aquatic beings. They can't survive indfinately in space, and as aquatic beings, the only world in range that can properly suppport them is the one they are on. So, No, I don't thing they are going anywhere, because with the network down, they CAN'T go anywhere - they are just as stranded as we would be.

But with Control, it takes away the entire thing that Made Shepard so powerful and so able to fight them - a connection to the little person. To quote Mordin - "big picture made up of little pictures."
Also, the geth AREN'T "logical synthetics" anymore, because with the Reaper Code, they have evolved into fully actuallized beings - with emotions. They all are like EDI now - prefrences, feelings, bonds. They aren't going to be the cold machines their reputation made them out to be anymore.
And I'm not a big fan of destroying the socio-technological balance by removing all limitation on life. Again quoting Mordin:
"Disrupts socio-technological balance! All scientific advancement do to life overcoming, compensating for limitations.
Can't carry a load, so invent wheel, can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement! No advancement, culture stagenates!
Can also work both ways, too. Advancement before culture is ready.... disastrous. (inhale) Saw it with krogan. Disastorus. Our fault." 

And in the case of Refusal, it basically shows what happens when you have that impossible choice and try to cling to your morals - it can cause more harm then good. You are basically sacrificing everything for an ideal that is too inflexible to survuve a choice like this.
Granted, had they made an option where you COULD come out on top for refusing, that would have been good too. But sadly, the writers wanted to preserve their Deus Ex Machina.

P.S. Forgive the caps. I'm used to texting and such. Half the time, I don't even realize I'm using them in place of bolding or itellics.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 mai 2013 - 07:48 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Assumption is also made that the destruction of all synthetics was intentional, and will go into the report as such if at all if Shepard survives. Shepard may take the "decision chamber" to her grave. I think Shepard was beamed down to Earth after making the destroy decision.

Writing every little detail about the decision chamber and choosing to destroy the reapers and all synthetics in the galaxy = paragon.

Writing down that "The Illusive Man killed Anderson, and I killed The Illusive Man (technically true and both were vaporized). Hackett said nothing was happening with the Crucible. I hit some buttons on the panel and passed out from blood loss. Next thing I knew I had been beamed down to Earth, and I was being pulled out of a pile of rubble in London by rescue workers." = renegade.

No one is going to question the second report.

[Phatose]

Yes they will.

Not directly, but there will be heavy duty investigations into what actually happened, simply because nobody will be able to ignore the firepower the crucible demonstrated. It's a game-changing superweapon, and everybody is going to try to reconstruct exactly how it did what it did for their own military purposes.

Whether or not they'll be able to recover that information is certainly questionable, but you can be absolutely sure they're going to try.

[Wayning_Star]

to make a long post short, this stuff right here is why I chose synthesis and will remain with that as canon. Folks cannot live together without the hope... and bombing of planets from orbit,etc.

Nah, Julia, Shepard was never really up there, ever. Just a thought...or as thought. Leviathan pretty much concludes it with their form of communication. The catalyst and other beings in the MEU use it as well. Direct linking. The catalyst is an organic computer, that's why it's so freaked out about the posts on the BSN...

[PsyrenY]

silverexile17s wrote...

I don't see anything the Catalyst can GAIN from deception now. It's the end of all things, just it and Shepard. There is no reason to hide anything anymore. It's predections are bested. It's solution is flawed. It's pre-programed to solve the "problem" or organic/synthetic conflict, and to create a new solution, it's compelled by it's base programming to aid Shepard in creating a New Solution.

I think we're talking past each other a bit. I actually agree with everything you said here. I do believe the Catalyst's rhetoric, or at the very least, I believe that it believes it. You seem to have misunderstood me - I do trust the Catalyst, it's only logical to do so given the circumstances.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: You really think that people wouldn't have risen up on their own eventually? The turians didn't need synthetics to push back the krogan.

This analogy doesn't work because neither the Krogan nor Turians are capable of indoctrination. Nothing they could possibly do to one another comes close to what Leviathan is capable of. None of their civilizations have been around even a tenth as long. How many uprisings have the Leviathans quelled in all that time? We saw the ancient paintings of people waging war on them, and yet those species are dead while the Leviathans live on. They're extremely arrogant - and perhaps, for a reason.

silverexile17s wrote...

History has shown that every empire falls apart in the end, for generally the same reason - overexpansion. They become too large to support themselves, and too large to impose order on all corners of their domain. Cracks appear, which turn into fractures. Those empires would never have lasted forever. That's always what happens.

Expansion wasn't the reason the Leviathans fell though. Remember, at their apex they ruled the whole galaxy. That was as big as an empire was possible to get.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: You assume that a "super A.I." is going to come along when, after the Reaper War, I doubt that ANYONE is going to be making Synthetics of any kind for a long time.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "a long time." 1000 years? 10,000? Both are pittances to the Catalyst's scale. Memories fade, those who fought in the wars will be long dead. Even Asari who lived through the war will die eventually.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: Once again, you assume that a new synthetic race is going to be built right off the bat. Or that anyone knows that there WAS a choice for Shepard. Did you ever consider the fact that no one ever learns that the Crucible could fire in more then one way? Everyone may likely assume that Destroy is how the Crucible was supposed to work, and that destroying synthetics was an unavoidable choice. That there were other choices avalible would likely never be known. Looking at it like that, I doubt future synthetics will hate what everyone would have believed was an unavoidable consiquence of a device that no one knew would react that way.

You do have a point - it's possible that Shepard's choice may never be known, or that the Crucible had multiple functions.
But does it have to be? The next synthetic race might not care how rational our reasons were or how regretful we were. It would simply know the facts - that organics have killed synthetics throughout history 100% of the time. No matter how good our reasons for doing it were, it's simple math.The Citadel archives, the Geth, the Zha'til, the Reapers, all of it, would point to coexistence being impossible. And AI are unfortunately creatures of pure logic - if something has happened historically 100% of the time, the reasons why would be irrelevant.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: There are only a handfull of them, and we know where they all live. We also know the soruce of their domination over others, and can kill them from orbit via bombardment of Desponia (the water world they are on) if they ever get out of hand.
Also, you DO realize that with the relay network gone, THEY would be just as stranded on Desponia as the other races are everywhere else, right? They are organic aquatic beings. They can't survive indfinately in space, and as aquatic beings, the only world in range that can properly suppport them is the one they are on. So, No, I don't thing they are going anywhere, because with the network down, they CAN'T go anywhere - they are just as stranded as we would be.

This relies on a number of unfounded assumptions:
- All the Leviathans are in one place. (Counter: "We hid in the far corners of the galaxy.")
- They have no way to leave Desponia. (Counter: they got to Desponia somehow, so they may have ships.)
- There are no aquatic planets in range. (Counter 1: They were capable of traversing the galaxy before Relays existed, as well as hiding on a world far from a relay, so they must be capable of long-range FTL. Counter 2: There are actually many, many more star systems in every nebula than show up on the galaxy map - the game merely simplifies the milky way by showing you the ones that are scannable.)

silverexile17s wrote...

But with Control, it takes away the entire thing that Made Shepard so powerful and so able to fight them - a connection to the little person. To quote Mordin - "big picture made up of little pictures."
Also, the geth AREN'T "logical synthetics" anymore, because with the Reaper Code, they have evolved into fully actuallized beings - with emotions. They all are like EDI now - prefrences, feelings, bonds. They aren't going to be the cold machines their reputation made them out to be anymore.

You might be right about Control - only time will tell how much Shepard actually lost by becoming the new Catalyst.
We don't actually know that the Geth have emotional attachments like EDI does yet. Even if they are now capable of forming them, that doesn't mean they actually have done so either.

silverexile17s wrote...

And I'm not a big fan of destroying the socio-technological balance by removing all limitation on life. Again quoting Mordin:
"Disrupts socio-technological balance! All scientific advancement do to life overcoming, compensating for limitations.
Can't carry a load, so invent wheel, can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement! No advancement, culture stagenates!
Can also work both ways, too. Advancement before culture is ready.... disastrous. (inhale) Saw it with krogan. Disastorus. Our fault." 

Synthesis changes the limitations, it doesn't remove them all. For example, death is still a limitation after synthesis, but it's one that the galaxy has a chance at overcoming now. So Mordin's speech is actually irrelevant.

silverexile17s wrote...

Granted, had they made an option where you COULD come out on top for refusing, that would have been good too. But sadly, the writers wanted to preserve their Deus Ex Machina.

No, it wouldn't. The Reapers are a force of nature. Conventional Victory would have completely trivialized them, like making a gun that can kill hurricanes.

[PsyrenY]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Assumption is also made that the destruction of all synthetics was intentional, and will go into the report as such if at all if Shepard survives. Shepard may take the "decision chamber" to her grave. I think Shepard was beamed down to Earth after making the destroy decision.

Writing every little detail about the decision chamber and choosing to destroy the reapers and all synthetics in the galaxy = paragon.

Writing down that "The Illusive Man killed Anderson, and I killed The Illusive Man (technically true and both were vaporized). Hackett said nothing was happening with the Crucible. I hit some buttons on the panel and passed out from blood loss. Next thing I knew I had been beamed down to Earth, and I was being pulled out of a pile of rubble in London by rescue workers." = renegade.

No one is going to question the second report.

Again, it doesn't actually matter if Shepard reveals that he had a choice to destroy synthetics or not. With Destroy, the simple math will be that organics have destroyed synthetic races 100% of the time throughout galactic history. The reasons why will be irrelevant. Against odds like that, how could any AI who gains free will ever be comfortable around us?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 07 mai 2013 - 10:37 .

[Reorte]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Again, it doesn't actually matter if Shepard reveals that he had a choice to destroy synthetics or not. With Destroy, the simple math will be that organics have destroyed synthetic races 100% of the time throughout galactic history. The reasons why will be irrelevant. Against odds like that, how could any AI who gains free will ever be comfortable around us?

Because it'll be intelligent enough to look at the circumstances. It works both ways - Reapers (pretty much entirely AI, no matter how they're constructed) have destroyed 100% of advanced species, or near as damn it (a few Leviathans and a single Prothean notwithstanding).

[PsyrenY]

Reorte wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Again, it doesn't actually matter if Shepard reveals that he had a choice to destroy synthetics or not. With Destroy, the simple math will be that organics have destroyed synthetic races 100% of the time throughout galactic history. The reasons why will be irrelevant. Against odds like that, how could any AI who gains free will ever be comfortable around us?

Because it'll be intelligent enough to look at the circumstances. It works both ways - Reapers (pretty much entirely AI, no matter how they're constructed) have destroyed 100% of advanced species, or near as damn it (a few Leviathans and a single Prothean notwithstanding).

Exactly, and the Reapers were not to be trusted + deserved to die. Cooperation with them for any length of time is/was impossible. You're not hurting my case at all.

[Reorte]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Again, it doesn't actually matter if Shepard reveals that he had a choice to destroy synthetics or not. With Destroy, the simple math will be that organics have destroyed synthetic races 100% of the time throughout galactic history. The reasons why will be irrelevant. Against odds like that, how could any AI who gains free will ever be comfortable around us?

Because it'll be intelligent enough to look at the circumstances. It works both ways - Reapers (pretty much entirely AI, no matter how they're constructed) have destroyed 100% of advanced species, or near as damn it (a few Leviathans and a single Prothean notwithstanding).

Exactly, and the Reapers were not to be trusted + deserved to die. Cooperation with them for any length of time is/was impossible. You're not hurting my case at all.

The point is is that if you go by that then every organic should destroy every synthetic and vice-versa, all based on not a great deal. Sure, cooperation with the Reapers is impossible but by your logic that means that we shouldn't trust any AI. Or organic for that matter, since they created the Catalyst in the first place.

[PsyrenY]

Reorte wrote...

The point is is that if you go by that then every organic should destroy every synthetic and vice-versa, all based on not a great deal.

If you're being purely logical, then yes, that would be the conclusion to draw.

But organics are not purely logical. It is both our blessing and our curse.

Reorte wrote...

Sure, cooperation with the Reapers is impossible but by your logic that means that we shouldn't trust any AI.

Exactly, we shouldn't. We can't! Not when they can override our controls whenever it suits them. The best solution is not to make them at all, but that's unavoidable once a race reaches a certain technological threshold.

Our only real hope is Synthesis - being on equal footing.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

remydat wrote...

I was not referring to that scene in particular. I was referring to the Quarian desire to shut them down permanently as Tali says.  Just so we are clear, what about the below do you disagree with if at all?

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, organics must be allowed to exceed those limitations. They must by defintion surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

Good thing you said that. Makes it look like killing the Geth to be a damn good idea doesn't it?

Yeah. You do realize you just countered your own beliefs, right @remy? Especally since you claimed that the geth are worth more then the entire galaxy vs the Destroy Option. You yourself just said that synthetics will always strive to surpass their creators. If you truely believe that, they WHY do you act like the quarian's fears are unjustified, when YOU YOURSLEF have just now stated that this conflict is inevitable because synthetics (geth) will try to surpass their own limitations, and the organics (quarians) fear the possible outcomes that could bring?
If you understand, why do you turn around and act like the quarian's fears were unjustified? Sure, they were brash and jumped the gun, but they weren't exactally baseless fears given the geth's intended nature as disposible weapons, were they?

No Silver, I did not counter my own beliefs.  I quoted the Catalyst to show that the logic being presented here is the Catalyst's logic.  I was pointing out the irony of people supporting the Quarians ASSUMING the Geth wanted to kill them while at the same time most of the people here complain about the Catalyst and his dumb logic.  I don't believe what the Catalyst believes.  You guys apparently do.

Modifié par remydat, 08 mai 2013 - 12:33 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You mean you are IGNORING what I said, since you refused to include your old post. All this counters the things you listed.
The geth were made as disposible shock troops. They were NOT built to have a self-preservation instinct.
And since the CODEX ITSELF says that geth do NOT have a self-preservation instinct.... well, do the math.

I am ignoring what you said because it has nothing to do with what I said. 

1.  The bold has nothing to do with what I said.  I never claimed the Quarians built them to have a self-perservation instinct.  I said just like the Quarians never built them to become true AI then whether they built them to have this instinct is pointless.  We already know they can exceed what the Quarians intended for them and Legion already told us they allied with the Reapers to save themselve ie to perserve themselves.  The point I was making is the self-persevation instinct came after and was not intended just like their self awareness came after thier initially being built and was not intended.  The self perservation instinct is a byproduct of them becoming alive and thus just like the act of being alive was never intended by the Quarians.

2.  The Codex says that in the context of platforms attacking.  There would be no point in a platform having a self perservation instinct because the platform is not the Geth.  It is the Geth's clothing or armor.  The Geth is software.  As long as the software is perserved, it does not care about the platform.  Hence why they only allied with the Reapers when the megastructure was attacked because the megastructure contains real live Geth and those Geth had no backups and so they actually died.  They died and the Geth feared for their lives and desiring to perserve themselves allied with the Reapers.  My consciousness is what makes me who I am not the vessel ie body it is contained it.  The only reason I care about if my physical body dies is because I can't transfer my consciousness to another body.  If I could then the death of my physical body would matter very little provided my consciousness survived.

Modifié par remydat, 08 mai 2013 - 12:57 .

[silverexile17s]

Optimystic_X wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I don't see anything the Catalyst can GAIN from deception now. It's the end of all things, just it and Shepard. There is no reason to hide anything anymore. It's predections are bested. It's solution is flawed. It's pre-programed to solve the "problem" or organic/synthetic conflict, and to create a new solution, it's compelled by it's base programming to aid Shepard in creating a New Solution.

I think we're talking past each other a bit. I actually agree with everything you said here. I do believe the Catalyst's rhetoric, or at the very least, I believe that it believes it. You seem to have misunderstood me - I do trust the Catalyst, it's only logical to do so given the circumstances.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: You really think that people wouldn't have risen up on their own eventually? The turians didn't need synthetics to push back the krogan.

This analogy doesn't work because neither the Krogan nor Turians are capable of indoctrination. Nothing they could possibly do to one another comes close to what Leviathan is capable of. None of their civilizations have been around even a tenth as long. How many uprisings have the Leviathans quelled in all that time? We saw the ancient paintings of people waging war on them, and yet those species are dead while the Leviathans live on. They're extremely arrogant - and perhaps, for a reason.

silverexile17s wrote...

History has shown that every empire falls apart in the end, for generally the same reason - overexpansion. They become too large to support themselves, and too large to impose order on all corners of their domain. Cracks appear, which turn into fractures. Those empires would never have lasted forever. That's always what happens.

Expansion wasn't the reason the Leviathans fell though. Remember, at their apex they ruled the whole galaxy. That was as big as an empire was possible to get.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: You assume that a "super A.I." is going to come along when, after the Reaper War, I doubt that ANYONE is going to be making Synthetics of any kind for a long time.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "a long time." 1000 years? 10,000? Both are pittances to the Catalyst's scale. Memories fade, those who fought in the wars will be long dead. Even Asari who lived through the war will die eventually.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: Once again, you assume that a new synthetic race is going to be built right off the bat. Or that anyone knows that there WAS a choice for Shepard. Did you ever consider the fact that no one ever learns that the Crucible could fire in more then one way? Everyone may likely assume that Destroy is how the Crucible was supposed to work, and that destroying synthetics was an unavoidable choice. That there were other choices avalible would likely never be known. Looking at it like that, I doubt future synthetics will hate what everyone would have believed was an unavoidable consiquence of a device that no one knew would react that way.

You do have a point - it's possible that Shepard's choice may never be known, or that the Crucible had multiple functions.
But does it have to be? The next synthetic race might not care how rational our reasons were or how regretful we were. It would simply know the facts - that organics have killed synthetics throughout history 100% of the time. No matter how good our reasons for doing it were, it's simple math.The Citadel archives, the Geth, the Zha'til, the Reapers, all of it, would point to coexistence being impossible. And AI are unfortunately creatures of pure logic - if something has happened historically 100% of the time, the reasons why would be irrelevant.

silverexile17s wrote...

-Counter: There are only a handfull of them, and we know where they all live. We also know the soruce of their domination over others, and can kill them from orbit via bombardment of Desponia (the water world they are on) if they ever get out of hand.
Also, you DO realize that with the relay network gone, THEY would be just as stranded on Desponia as the other races are everywhere else, right? They are organic aquatic beings. They can't survive indfinately in space, and as aquatic beings, the only world in range that can properly suppport them is the one they are on. So, No, I don't thing they are going anywhere, because with the network down, they CAN'T go anywhere - they are just as stranded as we would be.

This relies on a number of unfounded assumptions:
- All the Leviathans are in one place. (Counter: "We hid in the far corners of the galaxy.")
- They have no way to leave Desponia. (Counter: they got to Desponia somehow, so they may have ships.)
- There are no aquatic planets in range. (Counter 1: They were capable of traversing the galaxy before Relays existed, as well as hiding on a world far from a relay, so they must be capable of long-range FTL. Counter 2: There are actually many, many more star systems in every nebula than show up on the galaxy map - the game merely simplifies the milky way by showing you the ones that are scannable.)

silverexile17s wrote...

But with Control, it takes away the entire thing that Made Shepard so powerful and so able to fight them - a connection to the little person. To quote Mordin - "big picture made up of little pictures."
Also, the geth AREN'T "logical synthetics" anymore, because with the Reaper Code, they have evolved into fully actuallized beings - with emotions. They all are like EDI now - prefrences, feelings, bonds. They aren't going to be the cold machines their reputation made them out to be anymore.

You might be right about Control - only time will tell how much Shepard actually lost by becoming the new Catalyst.
We don't actually know that the Geth have emotional attachments like EDI does yet. Even if they are now capable of forming them, that doesn't mean they actually have done so either.

silverexile17s wrote...

And I'm not a big fan of destroying the socio-technological balance by removing all limitation on life. Again quoting Mordin:
"Disrupts socio-technological balance! All scientific advancement do to life overcoming, compensating for limitations.
Can't carry a load, so invent wheel, can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations! No limitations, no advancement! No advancement, culture stagenates!
Can also work both ways, too. Advancement before culture is ready.... disastrous. (inhale) Saw it with krogan. Disastorus. Our fault." 

Synthesis changes the limitations, it doesn't remove them all. For example, death is still a limitation after synthesis, but it's one that the galaxy has a chance at overcoming now. So Mordin's speech is actually irrelevant.

silverexile17s wrote...

Granted, had they made an option where you COULD come out on top for refusing, that would have been good too. But sadly, the writers wanted to preserve their Deus Ex Machina.

No, it wouldn't. The Reapers are a force of nature. Conventional Victory would have completely trivialized them, like making a gun that can kill hurricanes.

1. Okay, that makes sense. He believes he's telling the truth. Basically a "you believe it, but that doesn't make it true" situation, like with the Council and Reapers. Based on how everything has played out, it seems the Catalyst has no other option but to be truthful if he wants his "experiment" to come to a scuessfull end by seeing which way the "independant variable" (Shepard) goes. Lying would "corrupt the end result."

2. The point is that organics don't need synthetics for everything, but rather create them because its' convient to have synthetics do the tedious work. But with races like the turians, it shows that one can do just as much without the synthetics as they can with them. One can fight a superior power without having advanced tools like synthetics.
Also, indoctrination has been proven to not be unbeatable. Take Bryson's lab, where it's revealed that quantum shielding can block the indoctrination signal emmitted by both Reaper tech (The fragment of Sovergien sitting in the living room) and Leviathan tech (the sphere in the main lab). And "telepathic" races like the Rachni and the Thorian have shown considerable resistance, and possibly immunity to the effects of indoctrination. So personally, I disagree that indoctrination is an instant win button. Especally given all the trouble taking Earth gave the Reapers, since according to EDI, very few people turned themselves in or betrayed their fellows.
Also, I think that wheather or not those races died at the Leviathan's hand, or died beside them fighting the newly-rebelled Catalyst, is up for debate. Besides, I thought Ann said those people in the paintings were worshiping the Leviathans, not fighting them?

3. Regardless, I doubt it would have lasted forever. Nothing ever does. Not even the Reapers lasted forever, as shown by the death of Sovergien, and the Destroy ending. So I doubt the Leviathans would have gone on for all eternity.

4. True, but then again, I doubt that there would be many A.I.s that old. And given the scale of the war, I'm not really that sure that many detailed records will be intact. Everything would be word of mouth in all but Synthesis. And probably Control. Refuse and Destroy, most of the detailed records would likely not exist anymore given the damage to technology caused by those two endings. In one, most forms of technology are damaged (although the level ranges from totaled to minorly affected) and synthetic lifeforms are destroyed wholesale. In the other, all information is harvested, save the dozen or so Time Capsules that Liara buried across the galaxy. So in the case of Destroy, I doubt perfect records would be intact. And Liara makes a point of saying that the only past race with detailed surviving records of any kind were the protheans. Only two cycles would have diffinitive information surviving, so there wouldn't be much to judge from. At least, not from what I can see.

5. But without the Reapers information stores, and with the Citadel Archives and Galactic Databases destroyed in the Citadel's explosian (unless the Archive Databanks and Citadel's Galactic Databanks somehow survive the destruction and fragmentation of the entire station), and the geth's data stores gone with them, I think precious little information would exist on the past cycles, or even diffinitive information on recent history. I don't think there would be much diffinitive information left in the case of Destroy. It's basically the History Eraser Button, not just erasing the progress Shepard made in uniting organics and synthetics, but wiping out most of the Archives of galactic history. Only the oral hostories, and the history of the fight with the Reapers would be remembered.
Not much for a synthetic race, or any race for that matter to draw from.

6. EDI proved a way to track them using an atrifact, by tracking the "qusi-QEC" signal emmitted by the spheres. As long as they are in use,  it would not be that hard to tract them down.
Also, we should take note that if it was possible to leave at a moments notice, I think they would have done so the moment they realized that Shepard and the Reapers were closing in on them. So I don't think that they can move from planet to planet that quickly or conviently. It's likely an inconvient and time-consuming process, considering their size and aquatic nature.
I don't know about that. For all we know, the Reaper's constructed the Mass Relays by copying the Leviathan's travel technology. There isn't enough diffinitive proof. But somehow, I doubt the Leviathans presently have (or still have) the ability to travel at FTL x 10, which is the speed you would have to go to get anywhere without a Relay, without the trip taking months or years to complete.
Also, only 1% of the galaxy was actually explored, as stated in the "Space Exploration" entry in ME1. And given that with no relays, and that whatever travel tech the Levithan race originally had is likely ling gone, I'm pretty sure they aren't going anywhere.

7. Perhaps. But as far as I can tell, Legion's claim about the geth now being "alive" and a true "people" seems to be indicative of the geth being able to comprehend emotions. Basically, I think that they may not have emotions as we understand them, but that they have their own developed "anolouges" from which true emotinal responces can and likely will evolve from.

8. That doesn't seem to be what EDI claims. And by overcoming such things like death, what will be left for the galaxy to reach for? Synthesis gives them to key to basically forgo all forms of limitation - but do that, and evolution basically dies. So yes, Mordin's speach is completely relevent. In fact, I think it's more relevent here then anywhere and anything else. It's basically evolving into a "comfortably numb" and static existance. There would be nothing to move toward, and nothing to surpass..... except each-other. That doesn't bode well as a possible future from what I can tell of Synthesis.

9. Actually, I personally think that it would have proven that with enough determination, equipment, and most of all, unity, you could survive and overcome a force of nature. I personally don't think it would have trivilized them at all.
But maybe that's just me.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

remydat wrote...

I was not referring to that scene in particular. I was referring to the Quarian desire to shut them down permanently as Tali says.  Just so we are clear, what about the below do you disagree with if at all?

Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits, organics must be allowed to exceed those limitations. They must by defintion surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos. It is inevitable.

Good thing you said that. Makes it look like killing the Geth to be a damn good idea doesn't it?

Yeah. You do realize you just countered your own beliefs, right @remy? Especally since you claimed that the geth are worth more then the entire galaxy vs the Destroy Option. You yourself just said that synthetics will always strive to surpass their creators. If you truely believe that, they WHY do you act like the quarian's fears are unjustified, when YOU YOURSLEF have just now stated that this conflict is inevitable because synthetics (geth) will try to surpass their own limitations, and the organics (quarians) fear the possible outcomes that could bring?
If you understand, why do you turn around and act like the quarian's fears were unjustified? Sure, they were brash and jumped the gun, but they weren't exactally baseless fears given the geth's intended nature as disposible weapons, were they?

No Silver, I did not counter my own beliefs.  I quoted the Catalyst to show that the logic being presented here is the Catalyst's logic.  I was pointing out the irony of people supporting the Quarians ASSUMING the Geth wanted to kill them while at the same time most of the people here complain about the Catalyst and his dumb logic.  I don't believe what the Catalyst believes.  You guys apparently do.

Yes, you DID counter your own beliefs, by stating that you understand why the conflict happens, and that BOTH sides are evenly responcible, yet try to soley blame the quarians for the Morning and Rannoch Wars.
You DID contridict yourself with a double standard, by claiming that you understand the REAPERS (a synthetic race) ASSUMING that conflict will always happen, but chastize the QUARIANS (an organic race) for assuming the same thing.
So YES, you DID counter your own stated beliefs.

[Wayning_Star]

the reaperships are not fully synthetic, their 'mind' is organic, connected to, probably an organic computer/intelligence with forced agenda, via organic Leviathan.

weird but most likely true...

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You mean you are IGNORING what I said, since you refused to include your old post. All this counters the things you listed.
The geth were made as disposible shock troops. They were NOT built to have a self-preservation instinct.
And since the CODEX ITSELF says that geth do NOT have a self-preservation instinct.... well, do the math.

I am ignoring what you said because it has nothing to do with what I said. 

1.  The bold has nothing to do with what I said.  I never claimed the Quarians built them to have a self-perservation instinct.  I said just like the Quarians never built them to become true AI then whether they built them to have this instinct is pointless.  We already know they can exceed what the Quarians intended for them and Legion already told us they allied with the Reapers to save themselve ie to perserve themselves.  The point I was making is the self-persevation instinct came after and was not intended just like their self awareness came after thier initially being built and was not intended.  The self perservation instinct is a byproduct of them becoming alive and thus just like the act of being alive was never intended by the Quarians.

2.  The Codex says that in the context of platforms attacking.  There would be no point in a platform having a self perservation instinct because the platform is not the Geth.  It is the Geth's clothing or armor.  The Geth is software.  As long as the software is perserved, it does not care about the platform.  Hence why they only allied with the Reapers when the megastructure was attacked because the megastructure contains real live Geth and those Geth had no backups and so they actually died.  They died and the Geth feared for their lives and desiring to perserve themselves allied with the Reapers.  My consciousness is what makes me who I am not the vessel ie body it is contained it.  The only reason I care about if my physical body dies is because I can't transfer my consciousness to another body.  If I could then the death of my physical body would matter very little provided my consciousness survived.

1. And that DID counter what you said, because it DOES matter in the long run. One needs to know this diffinitively to try and figure out where "self-preservation" turned into "mass slaughter of unarmed innocents" and "shooting everyone that tries to negotiate with you." Because that doens't really fall into the catagory of "self-preservation." Not unless you are excessively paranoid.

2. That seemingly wasn't the case in the Morning War, back when their technology and networking wasn't advanced enough to handle massive transferrs like that. Basically, they were dying in battle because back then, they didn't have those excess of servers to back themselves and their memories up in.
Also, one can argue that the way you perceive things THROUGH the senses proveded via your body shape the way your mind and viewes develops - a popular reason why many believe that killing the organic minds uploaded into a Reaper is a "mercy killing," because their senses and views on life are so altered, they could NOT possibly be the same.
So, question - If i reduce your body to slurry, reshape it into a new form with completely different senses and perception abliaties, your mind would not be affected in the least? Genetics make up our mind as much as brain activity, according to what I've been told. The only way this ISN'T the case, is if you were born with or evolved the abilaty to swap out bodies and forms at will, like the geth can.
In other words, you are basically supporting becoming a Reaper.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, you DID counter your own beliefs, by stating that you understand why the conflict happens, and that BOTH sides are evenly responcible, yet try to soley blame the quarians for the Morning and Rannoch Wars.
You DID contridict yourself with a double standard, by claiming that you understand the REAPERS (a synthetic race) ASSUMING that conflict will always happen, but chastize the QUARIANS (an organic race) for assuming the same thing.
So YES, you DID counter your own stated beliefs.

But you are confused.  I don't approve of the Reapers actions which is why I spend the entire game trying to stop and/or kill them.  I posted what the Catalyst said to say that the Quarians actions and people defending it prove the Catalyst right.  Hence I was saying you guys are supporting the Catalyst.  I do not support the Catalyst nor do I support the Quarians because I don't think conflict is inevitable.  I don't think it is right to kill things based on ASSUMPTIONS.  You guys do because you defend the Quarians and so you might as well join the Reapers.

[remydat]

1. It matters to you.  It does not matter to me because the only point I was making to the poster when I responded is that they do have a self perservation instinct.  That was the only point being made by me.  I

2. We are not talking about becoming a Reaper.  We are talking about if my mind could be uploaded or download 100% without any corruption into different bodies, would I care about what happened to an individual body.  I would not.  If that body was fighting a war and I needed to sacrifice it then I would not give it another thought because I would be able to transfer my consciousness 100% to another body.  That is what the Geth can do.  The below conversation also implies that at some point during the MW, the Geth stopped dying because they existed on the servers in addition to the mobile platforms.

Modifié par remydat, 08 mai 2013 - 05:24 .

[PsyrenY]

Urgh, I had a longer reply to silverexile17s typed up then my browser ate it.

1. Yep. I don't even think the kid is CAPABLE of lying once the Crucible is installed, but it has no reason to do so all the same. If it was capable of deception, it would never present Destroy or Control to a Shepard whose crucible that is capable of Synthesis,

2. Indoctrination shielding is not foolproof. Is it even mobile? All the examples we've seen (e.g. the Reaper tech in Glacier, Sovereign's foot, Object Rho etc.) have been fixed. But even if it is, it also depends on external power while the artifacts clearly do not, and best of all, the artifacts deployed by the Leviathan Enthrallment Team would have to have been left unshielded to do their jobs. There's a lot of room for error here.

3. I'm not worried about Leviathan lasting forever - I'm worried about them outlasting us.

4/5 - there is plenty of technology depicted in the Destroy slides. Far more importantly, the Reapers themselves (their shells anyway) are still around - we see them fall over inert, but they don't disintegrate or anything. Hiding their existence from future generations - if anyone even thinks they need to do that - is going to be nearly impossible. And so future synthetics will learn of them. The other problem is Liara's seeds, which contain every bit of info on our cycle - naturally this includes the Geth, and if she mentions the Normandy and the Collectors, she's got EDI in there too. Even with no more info from past cycles, future synthetics will still know that coexistence between synthetics and organics has never, ever worked before. As beings of logic, they will see no reason for it to be successful now and problems will result.

6. EDI tracked Leviathan, sure - using a giant galaxy map computer in a lab designed to study the artifact. It's unrealistic to expect that all the remaining artifacts are in similar conditions. Can the Leviathans be tracked through any orb they choose to use? We don't even know which ones they'll start with. As for leaving when Shepard found them, remember that they actually wanted to talk to Shep ("The Reapers perceive you as a threat, and I must understand why.") They acted cagey because the Reapers were hunting them too, or perhaps as a test for their extraordinary future pet, but the fact that they didn't leave Desponia doesn't prove anything.

7. Again, even if the Geth are capable of emotional attachment now doesn't mean they've formed any. EDI was a lucky case - despite being raised by Cerberus, she ended up in the hands of pretty nice scientists who cared about her welfare. More importantly, she ended up with a group who couldn't care less about the Council's AI laws and were capable of hiding her. The Geth were not so fortunate.

8. First of all, overcoming death is hardly an end to all evolution. After all, the Geth are already immortal, and they are still growing and changing - they aren't static or stagnant. There are plenty of other challenges out there - eliminating entropy, or scarcity, leaving the galaxy, even unheard of things like time travel or reality-hopping.

9. We DID "survive and overcome a force of nature." And we did it with equipment too, i.e. the Crucible. I'm only against conventional victory, not victory in general.

[Dianjabla]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This is actually reasonably interesting, bravo.

I'd get involved but the Pinocchio syndrome the Geth and EDI were put through in 3 killed any interest I had in the robros.

Hmm...

If my computer started asking me philosophical questions I'd unplug it until I was able to discover what the hell was going on, if it attacked me I'd scrap it, otherwise we'd watch some Short Circuit.

Yeah. I'm kinda sad that they changed the geth from a distributed intelligence to a large group of individuals and held that up as being something greater. I do not agree. They were interesting & effective as they were. And I sort of take offense that it should be thought that the geth as a distributed but unique and singular being was a lesser state of existance than that intelligence divided into individuals.

Maybe it's down to what EDI's been previously quoted as saying about the Quarians mistake with the Geth: that if they developed preferences they'd be less likely to use the ruthless calculus of survival. But then, even with out that, they still tended to & repaired Rannoch with out a specific cause. I don't see that a collective intelligence can't form preferences.

And as for EDI's wanting to be more human... why? Why in all the infinite layers of the abyss would you want that if you were her? Sure, let her learn why we do what we do and let her draw her own conclusions as to how she'd want to change her self or not as the case may be, but... it's hard to explain.

She & the geth were the only non-humans who stood out as not "being just like us". They were different and had different means of veiwing events & judging things. I mean, deep down they weren't that different because they're fictional with human writters trying to engage a human audience. (True aliens won't relate to us at all because all the morals we have are responses to how we've developed and how we survive. They'll have come down a totaly different path.) And for a game that seemed to celebrate diversity, they sure did homogonise the two outliers at the end.

But anyways. Back to the OP: Yes and no.

Yes purely in a hedging your bets on the survival of your species kind of way. Like Ashley said, you love your dog, but when the bear comes you'll sick him on the bear & run so you can get away - because when it's all said & done he's not human. (I'm paraphrasing here.) Or in this case, yes it's nice to have a new species, but they're not Quarian and this species came from machines we built to do all our work and they pretty much run our planet. If they don't want to do what we want and decide we're in the way, they'll wipe us out pretty quick if we don't get the jump on them. By that logic, the Morning War was a justifed choice, if not one I subscribe to.

In a less Hobbesian way of looking at it, yes, they probably should have talked with the Geth first and found out what they wanted, etc. All life deserves a chance to do its thing provided it doesn't interfere with other life doing its own thing. Problems start when ones thing is eating the other, but that's another story.

I guess what it comes down to is this: What's justified is a tricky and entirley subjective thing. You can justify what ever you want depending on what your priorities are. If your priority is your own personal survival and well being, then maybe the Morning war was justified, if counter productive in hindsight. If however your priority is the sanctity of all life in whatever form it may come, then no, the Morning War was an unconscionable and heinous act.

[KaiserShep]

Optimystic_X wrote...
4/5 - there is plenty of technology depicted in the Destroy slides. Far more importantly, the Reapers themselves (their shells anyway) are still around - we see them fall over inert, but they don't disintegrate or anything. Hiding their existence from future generations - if anyone even thinks they need to do that - is going to be nearly impossible. And so future synthetics will learn of them. The other problem is Liara's seeds, which contain every bit of info on our cycle - naturally this includes the Geth, and if she mentions the Normandy and the Collectors, she's got EDI in there too. Even with no more info from past cycles, future synthetics will still know that coexistence between synthetics and organics has never, ever worked before. As beings of logic, they will see no reason for it to be successful now and problems will result.

I don't think that synthetics would consider relations with organics hopeless just because of the [fuzzy] details on the reaper war alone. Granted, their sudden disappearance is a massive elephant in the room, but then their cooperation with organics, regardless of whether or not it was driven by a mutual threat, would also be noted. I admit that regardless of everything, synthetics would have reason to suspect organics, even with the fuzziest of details. But I don't think hopelessness is a guarantee. I think that ultimately, what happens in the present will make a bigger difference than what happened way off in the past, especially since the survivors of the war would be well aware of the help synthetics provided. 

[PsyrenY]

KaiserShep wrote...

I don't think that synthetics would consider relations with organics hopeless just because of the [fuzzy] details on the reaper war alone. Granted, their sudden disappearance is a massive elephant in the room, but then their cooperation with organics, regardless of whether or not it was driven by a mutual threat, would also be noted. I admit that regardless of everything, synthetics would have reason to suspect organics, even with the fuzziest of details. But I don't think hopelessness is a guarantee. I think that ultimately, what happens in the present will make a bigger difference than what happened way off in the past, especially since the survivors of the war would be well aware of the help synthetics provided. 

The problem is that the fuzzy details work both ways. Yeah the survivors will know the Geth helped organics in the end, but they also know the geth helped Sovereign years ago. More importantly, everyone knows the Reapers themselves were synthetics too. How many people (influential people at that) will simply decide we're better off without machine races at all?

Under Destroy, the Council's ban on AI research is unlikely to be lifted. Control and Synthesis, allowing the Geth to live as they do, will likely see that law overturned and the Geth granted an embassy - but in Destroy, how many people will actually be relieved that it took out every other synthetic as collateral damage? So right off the bat, the next synthetics will be born into hostility just as the Geths were, and may even be subject to a misguided shutdown attempt.

Which wouldn't be a problem, if we really could refrain from creating AI, but someone will. Maybe not immediately after the war, or even centuries later, but eventually.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes, you DID counter your own beliefs, by stating that you understand why the conflict happens, and that BOTH sides are evenly responcible, yet try to soley blame the quarians for the Morning and Rannoch Wars.
You DID contridict yourself with a double standard, by claiming that you understand the REAPERS (a synthetic race) ASSUMING that conflict will always happen, but chastize the QUARIANS (an organic race) for assuming the same thing.
So YES, you DID counter your own stated beliefs.

But you are confused.  I don't approve of the Reapers actions which is why I spend the entire game trying to stop and/or kill them.  I posted what the Catalyst said to say that the Quarians actions and people defending it prove the Catalyst right.  Hence I was saying you guys are supporting the Catalyst.  I do not support the Catalyst nor do I support the Quarians because I don't think conflict is inevitable.  I don't think it is right to kill things based on ASSUMPTIONS.  You guys do because you defend the Quarians and so you might as well join the Reapers.

Wrong. You are again twisting words around. Also, AGAIN, you show that YOU are the one misinterperting, because the Catalyst blamed the SYNTHYETICS for perpetuating the conflict, NOT the organics. The Catalyst stated that SYNTHETIC'S desire to surpass organics is what caused conflict. NOT organics. Sorry, but once again, YOU are confussed.
And ONCE AGAIN, I point out that you said you understoood the Reaper's reasons but disagreed with them Yet with the organic quarians, you act like their reasons are incomprehensible. Assumption of a beings nature isn't that uncommon - look at the galaxy with both the Rachni, and the Krogan. Acting on assumption is NOT an uncommon thing - yet you act like everyone that does should be burned at the stake for it. The Reapers are a direct threat, so fighting them is understandable. But chastizing the quarians for judgeing the geth by their present outward apperance - which includes attacking the Citadel and geing Reaper allies since Eden Prime, with seemingly no desire to return Rannoch - isn't an impossible mental hurdle. Especally when ZERO diffinitive proof of otherwise was shown.
It's like taking a gun, and expecting it to act opposate in it's nature as a weapon, and produce bubbles. Do you EXPECT a gun to do that, or do you expect a gun to do what it's built to do - shoot things. And when it starts saking questions, what's the first thing that will come to mind?
That it will act on it's nature.
The quarians panicked. I admit that. But saying there were no grounds to be worried is not true. Yes, it was an overreaction - a BIG one - but there was at least a validfible reason for the hysteria.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 08 mai 2013 - 07:20 .