889 réponses à ce sujet

[PMC65]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Kudos to the OP; awesome post.

Was it justified? It's only justified if the Quarians were right that the Geth WERE going to rebel and wipe them out, something we will never know because:they didn't give the Geth a chance to rebel first.

Javik's quote about how we're flawed beings, and what the synthetics would do when they realized that is a good one. I think of it like this, think of children. They believe their parents are perfect. They know everything, daddy can beat up anyone, mommy is a better cook then anyone, etc. As they grow older, they learn that's bull. And, often, they do rebel. Or, as we like to say, they become teenagers. BUT, eventually they often reconcile with their parents. Would this happen with synthetics? After all, as the Geth proved time and time again, even synthetics aren't perfect. Had the Quarians acted more like parents instead of scared end users and nurtured the Geth, I don't think the Geth would have kicked them off the world. But that would have necessitated the Quarians treating the Geth as equals and not slaves, wouldn't it?

Interesting ... the only problem is that we are trying to humanize them in a way.

Once the geth rose up, they killed any organic in their path, no matter if they were a threat or not. From the elderly to infants ... they showed no mercy because they had no mercy. That is the part that would concern me ... their lack of empathy or charity. I am sure that the children they murdered were not trying to shut them down or that the crippled and infirmed were not trying to beat them up. And they must have all agreed upon this course of action (consensus) for it to happen. It would be fair to think that not one geth disagreed with the murders since the only time a mention of the geth struggling for a consensus was when the quarian fled. 

If the geth had been human, would we be so forgiving of what they did to the quarians? To the children? To the weak? To the defenseless? There is defending one-self and then there is what the geth did ... a nice jab at genocide. The Morning War was brutal and the quarian and their descendents suffered greatly for it. When you meet them, they are still paying the price of what their ancestors did ... The sins of the father.

Was the Morning War justified? No. And the geth lost their "victim" status when they swept through cities and killed everyone. At least for me ... others can have their own takeaway.

[chemiclord]

The only thing I want to add to this is the seeming assumption that what Legion shows us in the Geth Archives is the whole story.

Legion had already demonstrated the ability to... leave out... critical details that might paint itself and the geth in a poor light (hell, it does so IN THAT VERY MISSION). At this point, how you can take anything Legion says without even the slightest grain of salt is... troubling.

[SeptimusMagistos]

chemiclord wrote...

The only thing I want to add to this is the seeming assumption that what Legion shows us in the Geth Archives is the whole story.

The quarians corroborate it. Even they admit they struck first and without provocation.

[chemiclord]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

The only thing I want to add to this is the seeming assumption that what Legion shows us in the Geth Archives is the whole story.

The quarians corroborate it. Even they admit they struck first and without provocation.

They confirm they struck first.  They don't detail exactly WHY they struck first.  They probably don't even REMEMBER what the flash point was.  The geth, however, do... and we're treated to a very disjointed series of viginettes with very little connecting them.

Who is to say that Legion wasn't picking and choosing bits that paint the geth in a positive light, and conveniently leaving out other bits that it was worried Shepard might find less appealing?  It's not outside of Legion's behavior to do so.

[PsyrenY]

chemiclord wrote...

Who is to say that Legion wasn't picking and choosing bits that paint the geth in a positive light, and conveniently leaving out other bits that it was worried Shepard might find less appealing?  It's not outside of Legion's behavior to do so.

That's just it - if Legion were doing that, the fact that the Geth unit was disobeying shutdown orders would be the number one most important thing to hide. It's the scariest possible thing the Geth could have done in that situation - refuse to follow commands. That he showed that part to Shepard means it must be true.

[chemiclord]

Optimystic_X wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Who is to say that Legion wasn't picking and choosing bits that paint the geth in a positive light, and conveniently leaving out other bits that it was worried Shepard might find less appealing?  It's not outside of Legion's behavior to do so.

That's just it - if Legion were doing that, the fact that the Geth unit was disobeying shutdown orders would be the number one most important thing to hide. It's the scariest possible thing the Geth could have done in that situation - refuse to follow commands. That he showed that part to Shepard means it must be true.

Not really.  The scene by itself paints the quarians as behaving irrationally towards a geth that has done nothing wrong, especially since it had spent much of the game prior demonstrating it was a living thing that deserved life.  "These quarians were trying to kill us, Shepard." That scene says.  "We HAD to fight back."

It may certainly have played out exactly as the recording says.  In fact, I'm sure what we see is 100% accurate.  But it's what we DON'T see that I wonder about.  Especially since Legion has already demonstrated himself quite masterful when it comes to lies of omission.

Modifié par chemiclord, 03 mai 2013 - 06:55 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

chemiclord wrote...

They confirm they struck first.  They don't detail exactly WHY they struck first.

Tali does. It was apparently out of blind paranoia.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Quarians were kicked off not only Rannoch, but all of their colony worlds by the Geth. It wasn't just their home world. It was by definition, genocide regardless of who attacked first. It was a deliberate and systematic destruction of the Quarian people (the definition is "in whole or in part" -- over 99% I think fits).

Both sides went into survival mode, but the Geth were stronger at the time.

I think the lesson here is to be very careful about this. We have a lot of people on this earth. There is no shortage of labor. Do we really need to go down the avenue of creating synthetics? No. Faster computers? sure, but not ones that start thinking for themselves.

[PsyrenY]

chemiclord wrote...

It may certainly have played out exactly as the recording says.  In fact, I'm sure what we see is 100% accurate.  But it's what we DON'T see that I wonder about.  Especially since Legion has already demonstrated himself quite masterful when it comes to lies of omission.

What we don't see is irrelevant, as I mentioned in the OP. The more important thing by far is what we do see, that even a perfectly eager and helpful Geth is able to disobey direct orders.

[Wolfva2]

PMC65 wrote..

Interesting ... the only problem is that we are trying to humanize them in a way.

Once the geth rose up, they killed any organic in their path, no matter if they were a threat or not. From the elderly to infants ... they showed no mercy because they had no mercy. That is the part that would concern me ... their lack of empathy or charity. I am sure that the children they murdered were not trying to shut them down or that the crippled and infirmed were not trying to beat them up. And they must have all agreed upon this course of action (consensus) for it to happen. It would be fair to think that not one geth disagreed with the murders since the only time a mention of the geth struggling for a consensus was when the quarian fled. 

If the geth had been human, would we be so forgiving of what they did to the quarians? To the children? To the weak? To the defenseless? There is defending one-self and then there is what the geth did ... a nice jab at genocide. The Morning War was brutal and the quarian and their descendents suffered greatly for it. When you meet them, they are still paying the price of what their ancestors did ... The sins of the father.

Was the Morning War justified? No. And the geth lost their "victim" status when they swept through cities and killed everyone. At least for me ... others can have their own takeaway.

I'm gonna be an arse and interject reality into our fantasy discussion

During WWII, could the Allies ever be forgiven for the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?  More Germans and Japanese were killed in those events then in the Nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Many of whom were children.  Or weak.  Or defenseless.  That's kind of the problem with war.  It is ugly and terrible. And, sadly, sometimes justified.  Those firebombings, and the later nukes, helped end the war faster and by all accounts saved lives. 

Getting back to fantasy, the Geth realized that the Quarians would utterly wipe them out unless the same was done to them first.  So, they acted.  You have to judge people (or Geth) on the information they had at hand at that time.  The Geth KNEW the Quarians would completely destroy them if they stayed on Rannoch.  

You say they attacked without mercy.  BUT:  once the Quarians had left and stopped being an immediate threat, what did the Geth do?  Hunt them down mercilessly?  Nope.  They let them go.  They returned to Rannoch and lived in PEACE.  It wasn't until some were corrupted by Reapers that Geth even became a problem, and it wasn't until the Fleet decided to wipe them out completely, even to the point of arming their civilian life ships, that the Geth went on the offensive.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

chemiclord wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Who is to say that Legion wasn't picking and choosing bits that paint the geth in a positive light, and conveniently leaving out other bits that it was worried Shepard might find less appealing?  It's not outside of Legion's behavior to do so.

That's just it - if Legion were doing that, the fact that the Geth unit was disobeying shutdown orders would be the number one most important thing to hide. It's the scariest possible thing the Geth could have done in that situation - refuse to follow commands. That he showed that part to Shepard means it must be true.

Not really.  The scene by itself paints the quarians as behaving irrationally towards a geth that has done nothing wrong, especially since it had spent much of the game prior demonstrating it was a living thing that deserved life.  "These quarians were trying to kill us, Shepard." That scene says.  "We HAD to fight back."

It may certainly have played out exactly as the recording says.  In fact, I'm sure what we see is 100% accurate.  But it's what we DON'T see that I wonder about.  Especially since Legion has already demonstrated himself quite masterful when it comes to lies of omission.

Not at all. Most people were caught up in the visual. I was. I'm a little hard of hearing. The visual of the scene says "we had to fight back." But the reason for what was happening in the scene was completely overlooked by most people watching it: the Geth unit was disobeying shutdown commands. Hence there was conflict.

This is precisely why an eye witness is unreliable. People will see what they want to see. They will see all the details, but the details won't register. Legion does do lies of omission which you do find out if you press him on things. This is one of the things I don't like about Legion ME3. Legion ME2 was a lot better written IMHO.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wolfva2 wrote...

PMC65 wrote..

Interesting ... the only problem is that we are trying to humanize them in a way.

Once the geth rose up, they killed any organic in their path, no matter if they were a threat or not. From the elderly to infants ... they showed no mercy because they had no mercy. That is the part that would concern me ... their lack of empathy or charity. I am sure that the children they murdered were not trying to shut them down or that the crippled and infirmed were not trying to beat them up. And they must have all agreed upon this course of action (consensus) for it to happen. It would be fair to think that not one geth disagreed with the murders since the only time a mention of the geth struggling for a consensus was when the quarian fled. 

If the geth had been human, would we be so forgiving of what they did to the quarians? To the children? To the weak? To the defenseless? There is defending one-self and then there is what the geth did ... a nice jab at genocide. The Morning War was brutal and the quarian and their descendents suffered greatly for it. When you meet them, they are still paying the price of what their ancestors did ... The sins of the father.

Was the Morning War justified? No. And the geth lost their "victim" status when they swept through cities and killed everyone. At least for me ... others can have their own takeaway.

I'm gonna be an arse and interject reality into our fantasy discussion

During WWII, could the Allies ever be forgiven for the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?  More Germans and Japanese were killed in those events then in the Nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Many of whom were children.  Or weak.  Or defenseless.  That's kind of the problem with war.  It is ugly and terrible. And, sadly, sometimes justified.  Those firebombings, and the later nukes, helped end the war faster and by all accounts saved lives. 

Getting back to fantasy, the Geth realized that the Quarians would utterly wipe them out unless the same was done to them first.  So, they acted.  You have to judge people (or Geth) on the information they had at hand at that time.  The Geth KNEW the Quarians would completely destroy them if they stayed on Rannoch.  

You say they attacked without mercy.  BUT:  once the Quarians had left and stopped being an immediate threat, what did the Geth do?  Hunt them down mercilessly?  Nope.  They let them go.  They returned to Rannoch and lived in PEACE.  It wasn't until some were corrupted by Reapers that Geth even became a problem, and it wasn't until the Fleet decided to wipe them out completely, even to the point of arming their civilian life ships, that the Geth went on the offensive.

Yes we'll acknowledge America has committed genocide.

[PMC65]

Optimystic_X wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It may certainly have played out exactly as the recording says.  In fact, I'm sure what we see is 100% accurate.  But it's what we DON'T see that I wonder about.  Especially since Legion has already demonstrated himself quite masterful when it comes to lies of omission.

What we don't see is irrelevant, as I mentioned in the OP. The more important thing by far is what we do see, that even a perfectly eager and helpful Geth is able to disobey direct orders.

True ... if I had purchased Rosey the robot maid and all of a sudden she stopped her chores and asked me if she had a soul? That would freak me out a little. If, in response, I went to shut her down and ... nope, no go and now she is asking me why I was trying to harm her. Crap! Now what do I do? And is she close to the butcher's block?

The quarian not knowing what the machines would do, simply tried to turn them off. To a geth, that would translate an act of aggression. To us, or the quarians, would it mean the same thing? Am I being a murderer when I unplug a toaster? I don't think so but the toaster might think different.

I have a feeling that the Morning War was not as clear cut as we think it was. There were machines and organics acting & reacting to each other, but how they perceived things were probably, at least initially, not the same thing. But then again, I could be totally wrong. It wouldn't be the first time or the last.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

This is actually reasonably interesting, bravo.

I'd get involved but the Pinocchio syndrome the Geth and EDI were put through in 3 killed any interest I had in the robros.


Hmm...

If my computer started asking me philosophical questions I'd unplug it until I was able to discover what the hell was going on, if it attacked me I'd scrap it, otherwise we'd watch some Short Circuit.

[SpamBot2000]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Do we really need to go down the avenue of creating synthetics? No. Faster computers? sure, but not ones that start thinking for themselves.

Meanwhile, at the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights:

www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/RegularSession/Session23/A-HRC-23-47_en.pdf

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 03 mai 2013 - 07:32 .

[PMC65]

Wolfva2 wrote...

I'm gonna be an arse and interject reality into our fantasy discussion

During WWII, could the Allies ever be forgiven for the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?  More Germans and Japanese were killed in those events then in the Nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Many of whom were children.  Or weak.  Or defenseless.  That's kind of the problem with war.  It is ugly and terrible. And, sadly, sometimes justified.  Those firebombings, and the later nukes, helped end the war faster and by all accounts saved lives. 

Getting back to fantasy, the Geth realized that the Quarians would utterly wipe them out unless the same was done to them first.  So, they acted.  You have to judge people (or Geth) on the information they had at hand at that time.  The Geth KNEW the Quarians would completely destroy them if they stayed on Rannoch.  

You say they attacked without mercy.  BUT:  once the Quarians had left and stopped being an immediate threat, what did the Geth do?  Hunt them down mercilessly?  Nope.  They let them go.  They returned to Rannoch and lived in PEACE.  It wasn't until some were corrupted by Reapers that Geth even became a problem, and it wasn't until the Fleet decided to wipe them out completely, even to the point of arming their civilian life ships, that the Geth went on the offensive.

Did the geth use nuclear bombs to beat the quarians? Or did they do exactly what you see in-game ... hand to hand type of slaughter. I am not saying that bombs make it better, but take those same men and tell them to slaughter those same people with their hands (ie, look at them when they kill them) ... how many would?

The geth did ... and they did it in a 100% agreement with each other. My mind has a hard time with that ... but it also drives home the difference between machines and organics. Humans will never have a 100% agreement on anything, murder or mudcakes. 

They also did not follow the quarians because they could not decide on what they should do ... not out of peace. The quarians got lucky that the geth could not come to a consensus fast enough. One bullet they dodged.

You were also told and shown in ME1 that going behind the veil was suicide. The geth would kill any organics that went there. You even find a shuttle with a warning from the geth in ME1. So, not so peace loving were the tin men.

I also don't remember Legion saying that the heretics were corrupted but had made a decision different than the geth. But once again, I might have not remembered that accurately or it was rewritten in ME3. Either is possible.

[Goneaviking]

Wolfva2 wrote...
I'm gonna be an arse and interject reality into our fantasy discussion

During WWII, could the Allies ever be forgiven for the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?  More Germans and Japanese were killed in those events then in the Nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Many of whom were children.  Or weak.  Or defenseless.  That's kind of the problem with war.  It is ugly and terrible. And, sadly, sometimes justified.  Those firebombings, and the later nukes, helped end the war faster and by all accounts saved lives. 

You're mistaken in believing that their is total consensus about the Nuclear Attacks helped end the war faster, or saved lives.

I've read accounts that appeared credible to me that the Japanese had already sought terms for their surrender prior to the those attacks. I'm not a historian and can not say with total certainty whether it is true or not, but if it is then the assumption that they served any beneficial purpose is absolutely false.

[IanPolaris]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Quarians were kicked off not only Rannoch, but all of their colony worlds by the Geth. It wasn't just their home world. It was by definition, genocide regardless of who attacked first. It was a deliberate and systematic destruction of the Quarian people (the definition is "in whole or in part" -- over 99% I think fits).

Both sides went into survival mode, but the Geth were stronger at the time.

I think the lesson here is to be very careful about this. We have a lot of people on this earth. There is no shortage of labor. Do we really need to go down the avenue of creating synthetics? No. Faster computers? sure, but not ones that start thinking for themselves.

It was not genocide.  For it to be genocide, it would have to be the DELIBERATE destruction of the Quarian people.  The fact is that had the Geth desired the destruction of the Quarian race, they could have done so fairly easily at the end of the Morning War and choose not to.

The Quarians refused to allow the Geth to live alongside them on their planets and as a result the Quarians lost their entire ecology (save their ships).  Then that happens, you get 99%+ fatality rates naturally.  Just becasue 99% of the Quarians died does not mean it was genocide.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  OTOH the Quarians are clearly guilty of genocide.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2013 - 07:38 .

[IanPolaris]

Goneaviking wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...
I'm gonna be an arse and interject reality into our fantasy discussion

During WWII, could the Allies ever be forgiven for the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?  More Germans and Japanese were killed in those events then in the Nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Many of whom were children.  Or weak.  Or defenseless.  That's kind of the problem with war.  It is ugly and terrible. And, sadly, sometimes justified.  Those firebombings, and the later nukes, helped end the war faster and by all accounts saved lives. 

You're mistaken in believing that their is total consensus about the Nuclear Attacks helped end the war faster, or saved lives.

I've read accounts that appeared credible to me that the Japanese had already sought terms for their surrender prior to the those attacks. I'm not a historian and can not say with total certainty whether it is true or not, but if it is then the assumption that they served any beneficial purpose is absolutely false.

The allied terms for surrender after Potsdam was "unconditional surrender", no ifs, ands, or buts  The Japanese military weren't willing to accept that, and the Japanese govt starting in June of 1945 after the fall of Germany was badly divided, and the Soviets were of no help at all (the Japanese did plead for the Soviets to act as a neutral party to sue for peace.  The answer they got from Stalin was a cold nyet)

It is true that the Tojo govt fell by the time the first atomic bomb was dropped, but the Japanese refused to surrender unconditionally.  Frankly by August, the Japanese govt was completely paralysed.  Most of the sane Japanese Leaders (most importantly including the Emperor) understood that for Japan to survive, she had to sue for peace, but they could not bring themselves to do it.  Worse the Military which while discredited was still very powerful, was not only preparing for an Okinawa style resistance in Kyushu and southern Honshu (which ultimately would have likely wiped out the Japanese as a coherent people had this plan been followed), it was also very much prepared to commit a coup to prevent national disgrace including holding the Emperor prisoner if need be.

From the accounts I have read, it was the bombing of Hiroshima (Nagasaki does seem to have been extraneous) that finally got the Emperor off the time and got him to personally intervene.

-Polaris

[Goneaviking]

IanPolaris wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Quarians were kicked off not only Rannoch, but all of their colony worlds by the Geth. It wasn't just their home world. It was by definition, genocide regardless of who attacked first. It was a deliberate and systematic destruction of the Quarian people (the definition is "in whole or in part" -- over 99% I think fits).

Both sides went into survival mode, but the Geth were stronger at the time.

I think the lesson here is to be very careful about this. We have a lot of people on this earth. There is no shortage of labor. Do we really need to go down the avenue of creating synthetics? No. Faster computers? sure, but not ones that start thinking for themselves.

It was not genocide.  For it to be genocide, it would have to be the DELIBERATE destruction of the Quarian people.  The fact is that had the Geth desired the destruction of the Quarian race, they could have done so fairly easily at the end of the Morning War and choose not to.

The Quarians refused to allow the Geth to live alongside them on their planets and as a result the Quarians lost their entire ecology (save their ships).  Then that happens, you get 99%+ fatality rates naturally.  Just becasue 99% of the Quarians died does not mean it was genocide.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  OTOH the Quarians are clearly guilty of genocide.

You're mistaken, the geth chose to inflict absolute and wholesale slaughter on the quarians and proceeded to carry it out. That fact doesn't change just because the last vestiges of the quarian species were allowed to limp away, their entire society and culture irreparably smashed.

If they hadn't fled, the geth would have carried on their bloody business til the very end, and then went about abandoning the uninhabited worlds that they didn't really want anyway.

The geth may not have chosen to start the war, but the quarians didn't force them to slaughter their children and their unarmed civilians. If the geth had absorbed enough of quarian culture to recognise the concept of a soul they'd surely be familiar with the concept of civilians.

In point of fact, they didn't even stop with the quarians. They killed members of other races who had the misfortune of being inside quarian territories at the time they were overrun as we learned in Illium in Mass Effect 2.

The mere fact that the organics started the fight doesn't render the geth innocent in their efficient and emotionless indiscriminate slaughter of organics. If they had the capacity to hunt down and kill the quarians as they fled into space, they also had the capacity to flee themselves, instead they chose to keep fighting rather than trying to walk away once they had the option.

[Goneaviking]

IanPolaris wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...
I'm gonna be an arse and interject reality into our fantasy discussion

During WWII, could the Allies ever be forgiven for the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo?  More Germans and Japanese were killed in those events then in the Nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Many of whom were children.  Or weak.  Or defenseless.  That's kind of the problem with war.  It is ugly and terrible. And, sadly, sometimes justified.  Those firebombings, and the later nukes, helped end the war faster and by all accounts saved lives. 

You're mistaken in believing that their is total consensus about the Nuclear Attacks helped end the war faster, or saved lives.

I've read accounts that appeared credible to me that the Japanese had already sought terms for their surrender prior to the those attacks. I'm not a historian and can not say with total certainty whether it is true or not, but if it is then the assumption that they served any beneficial purpose is absolutely false.

The allied terms for surrender after Potsdam was "unconditional surrender", no ifs, ands, or buts  The Japanese military weren't willing to accept that, and the Japanese govt starting in June of 1945 after the fall of Germany was badly divided, and the Soviets were of no help at all (the Japanese did plead for the Soviets to act as a neutral party to sue for peace.  The answer they got from Stalin was a cold nyet)

It is true that the Tojo govt fell by the time the first atomic bomb was dropped, but the Japanese refused to surrender unconditionally.  Frankly by August, the Japanese govt was completely paralysed.  Most of the sane Japanese Leaders (most importantly including the Emperor) understood that for Japan to survive, she had to sue for peace, but they could not bring themselves to do it.  Worse the Military which while discredited was still very powerful, was not only preparing for an Okinawa style resistance in Kyushu and southern Honshu (which ultimately would have likely wiped out the Japanese as a coherent people had this plan been followed), it was also very much prepared to commit a coup to prevent national disgrace including holding the Emperor prisoner if need be.

From the accounts I have read, it was the bombing of Hiroshima (Nagasaki does seem to have been extraneous) that finally got the Emperor off the time and got him to personally intervene.

-Polaris

Interesting. From that it sounds like the allies carry some extra responsibility for their unwillingness to negoatiate.

[IanPolaris]

Goneaviking wrote...

You're mistaken, the geth chose to inflict absolute and wholesale slaughter on the quarians and proceeded to carry it out. That fact doesn't change just because the last vestiges of the quarian species were allowed to limp away, their entire society and culture irreparably smashed.

I am not mistaken.  The Quarians refused to co-exist with the Geth and defending yourself is not genocide.  If the Quarians choose to commit racial suicide by attacking the Geth without considering any other option, that is the fault of the Quarians and not the Geth.  Defending yourself is not a choice.  It is a fundamental natural right (one of the very few in fact).

If they hadn't fled, the geth would have carried on their bloody business til the very end, and then went about abandoning the uninhabited worlds that they didn't really want anyway.

The Quarians attacked the Geth 100% of the time by the Quarian's (Adm Koris) own admission.  You are not obligated to save a creature that refuses to coexist with you.  In short, if an entire species dies because it refuses to allow you or your species to exist (think Darkspawn in Dragon Age), it's not genocide.

The geth may not have chosen to start the war, but the quarians didn't force them to slaughter their children and their unarmed civilians. If the geth had absorbed enough of quarian culture to recognise the concept of a soul they'd surely be familiar with the concept of civilians.

You are assuming facts not in evidence.  The Quarians clearly don't consider civilians to be above military attack (else they would not arm their civilian ships).  Since the Quarians made and programmed the Geth, it is unreasonable for the Geth to draw that disinction either.  In any event it was the Quarians that rounded up (and killed) those that refused to follow the hard line.

In point of fact, they didn't even stop with the quarians. They killed members of other races who had the misfortune of being inside quarian territories at the time they were overrun as we learned in Illium in Mass Effect 2.

Given the circumstances, such people would likely be considered part of the enemy.  Not only that, but you are assuming that these others even TRIED to tallk with the Geth.  We know some Quarians did, and the Geth tried (at least once) to protect them and failed due to the actions of other Quarians.

The mere fact that the organics started the fight doesn't render the geth innocent in their efficient and emotionless indiscriminate slaughter of organics. If they had the capacity to hunt down and kill the quarians as they fled into space, they also had the capacity to flee themselves, instead they chose to keep fighting rather than trying to walk away once they had the option.

Innocent?  No.  They simply aren't guilty of the crime of Genocide as defined by the UN.  The Geth did not attempt to slaughter Quarians because they were Quarians.  They attempted to win a war using admittedly brutal means.  By our standards, the Geth almost certainly committed war crimes.  That I do not contest, but genocide isn't one of them since that applies to the deliberate and systematic destruction of a race or ethnic group, and there is no evidence that the Geth ever desired to delibeately wipe out the Quarians and we are told pretty specifically and are given a lot of solid evidence that they didn't.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Goneaviking wrote...

Interesting. From that it sounds like the allies carry some extra responsibility for their unwillingness to negoatiate.

Tell that to the survivors of the Baatan Death March, the "Pleasure Centers of Nanking", or even the subjects of the chemical war plants in Manchuria.  The Axis (both Japan and Germany) were given the demand of unconditional surrender for a reason.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The point here is that in both cases, a corrupt and evil system couldn't be allowed to continue (be it the "Nasties" of Germany or the Militant Imperialists of Japan), and unconditional surrender was the only option that insured that they wouldn't be allowed to lie in wait for another generation (an important lesson learned post WWI)

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 mai 2013 - 08:18 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Goneaviking wrote...

Interesting. From that it sounds like the allies carry some extra responsibility for their unwillingness to negoatiate.

You don't commit the kinds of atrocites the Axis powers did and expect a negotiated peace.

[PsyrenY]

Wolfva2 wrote...Kudos to the OP; awesome post.

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...This is actually reasonably interesting, bravo..

Thank you both! It's not easy to find interesting topics left with the game out as long as it has been... but it still boggles my mind how much sheer content they crammed into it. And as I said in the opening, I pick up a new piece of dialogue on every playthrough. Hell, I haven't even finished my Renegade shep yet, and I'm sure there's going to be interesting bits there too. It's almost like 2 games in one. If it weren't for Youtube I doubt I'd ever see what Padok Wiks looks like.


---


Moving on. I don't know the WWII history so much (does it count as Godwin's Law even if you stick to the Japanese? But I suspect my next bit will Godwin the thread if it hasn't been already anyway so it's moot.) I'm also not really interested in precisely defining genocide - though I would wager just about anything the Geth decide to do counts as "systematic."

Anyway, whatever % of the Quarians the Geth left alive and whatever moniker we choose to hang on the situation, I think we can all agree that the deaths were monstrous, however necessary, but that the Geth sparing the survivors was a good thing too.

What I am going to talk about is PMC65's very interesting point, that of consensus. This is a fundamental difference between organic races and synthetic ones - whereas even the Axis forces had some sympathizers (or traitors, or double-agents) who hid Jews in their homes, smuggled POWs, what-have-you... the Geth - once they decided to go to war - showed no mercy or quarter to anyone. They kept memories of friendly creators in their memory banks but they were done with Quarians as a group at that point. 
Why is this important? This comes right back to the Catalyst's fear of what might happen should synthetics gain the upper hand in a conflict against organics. What would have happened if the Geth had come outside the veil, had become hostile to organics as a whole? Their military might is pretty formidable:

"Many geth vessels are built to explore, mine, or provide transport between factories and space stations. But every geth ship, regardless of purpose, is also capable of engaging hostile forces. Unbound by the Treaty of Farixen, the synthetic intelligences built almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians. The software running these ships is in the geth themselves. High advanced electronic security measures and cyber warfare suites bolster already formidable firepower."

Not only that, but they can take over organic vessels as well, as we saw them do to the Alarei in ME2. The Heretics terrorized the whole galaxy in ME1, and numbers-wise they are a mere fraction of the Geth as a whole. Imagine if they had all come out, right then, before the Quarians could escape and even warn the Council what was behind them. Even if we had beat them back, we might have ended up taking the same kinds of precautions the Protheans did.

Again, I'm not saying the Quarians were justified in attacking, nor am I saying the Geth don't deserve to live... but the danger is extremely high nonetheless. Destroy sweeps the board, but the game isn't over, and the next race to be created - by accident or on purpose - may not even start out as helpful as they did.