889 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

1. It matters to you.  It does not matter to me because the only point I was making to the poster when I responded is that they do have a self perservation instinct.  That was the only point being made by me.  I

2. We are not talking about becoming a Reaper.  We are talking about if my mind could be uploaded or download 100% without any corruption into different bodies, would I care about what happened to an individual body.  I would not.  If that body was fighting a war and I needed to sacrifice it then I would not give it another thought because I would be able to transfer my consciousness 100% to another body.  That is what the Geth can do.  The below conversation also implies that at some point during the MW, the Geth stopped dying because they existed on the servers in addition to the mobile platforms.

1. And it was WRONG, because the geth did NOT have real self-preservation in the beginning. And even then, "Self-preservation" does NOT justify mass slaughter.

2. LoL. That video seems to be the completely wrong thing for you to pose given your views.
In that video, did you MISS the part in the very start at 0:11 in which Legion states that the quarian's account of the Morning War is largely accurate?
And then, "treated them differently" is because they did not see the geth as living beings, because they were not CREATED to be living beings. Not exactally hard to understand why they would believe their guns would be normal guns that DON'T talk. Also, you not the Legion says that viloence was NOT the quarian's initial responce. First, they let it slide. Then, they tried "reprogrammnig" in an effort to try and "fix" the "problem" so that their servents wouldn't have to be destroyed. When ALL OTHER OPTIONS were seemingly exausted, they panicked and said "hell with it all."
And I think it's convient that you forgot EDI was based on Reaper Tech. So I'd hardly call the shackles unjustified, given what the Heretics did to the Citadel. EDI may not have done anything to provoke tha ttreatment of A.I.s - but the HERETICS did.
Did you ALSO note that Legion said they UNDERSTOOD and ACCEPTED the quarians hate as being VALID, since the geth withhold Rannoch from them?
Another thing, is that as a synthetic that does not need interaction with a native enviroment to survive, I doubt Legion would comprehend how Rannoch is a physical requirement to survive for the quarians, as listed in the ME3 Codex entiry on Rannoch.
And Shepard's final line:
"Nothing gets resolved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you."
It's hard to accuse the geth of striving for peace when they shot down everyone ELSE that ever tried, and then just sit back and wait for the quarians to try out of blind faith that THIS time will be different.
There is ALOT in that vid that DISPROVES your points about the geth/quarian war having "one side more guilty".
Another thing is that back then, it was NOT complete transferrance. Memories could be archived. In the LATER conversation with Legion, he spicifically staes that "their memories are archoved AFTER DEATH. THAT is likely what happened after the Morning War. NOT complete transferrence.  That likely came with later advancements made during their isolation.

Also, I feel the need to remind you that such uploads are  PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE currently. Even then, I have seen major doubt expressed on wheather you would be the same being.
Look at the Control Shepard A.I. It has all the memories and such, yet acknowledges itself as a completely different person. I really don't think it's POSSIBLE to have that level of transfer - I talked to someone that explained that no matter WHAT tech you used, there would always be some level of corruption.
In fact, this once again shows that you have blurred the line between our forms of life. Organic and Synthetic are NOT the same forms of life. Stop ACTING like they are, and look at the unique differences both have that the other will NEVER experance, and maybe you will finally start to comprehend this.

[remydat]

1. I think them killing billions of Quarians instead of just accepting the order to shut down permanently is all the evidence I need to know they wanted to live. And no one said anything about justifying mass slaughter. I said they had a self perservation instinct.

2. You seem to keep trying to interject our previous arguments into the current debate. I am not arguing about any of that stuff. We have covered those things enough. I said, if my mind could be transferred from body to body, I would not care about an individual body. I never said they were possible now. It was brought up to explain why a Geth does not care about an individual mobile platform. They are able to house and transfer themselves and exist on servers.

Can you stick to what is being argued?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. You are again twisting words around. Also, AGAIN, you show that YOU are the one misinterperting, because the Catalyst blamed the SYNTHYETICS for perpetuating the conflict, NOT the organics. The Catalyst stated that SYNTHETIC'S desire to surpass organics is what caused conflict. NOT organics. Sorry, but once again, YOU are confussed.
And ONCE AGAIN, I point out that you said you understoood the Reaper's reasons but disagreed with them Yet with the organic quarians, you act like their reasons are incomprehensible. Assumption of a beings nature isn't that uncommon - look at the galaxy with both the Rachni, and the Krogan. Acting on assumption is NOT an uncommon thing - yet you act like everyone that does should be burned at the stake for it. The Reapers are a direct threat, so fighting them is understandable. But chastizing the quarians for judgeing the geth by their present outward apperance - which includes attacking the Citadel and geing Reaper allies since Eden Prime, with seemingly no desire to return Rannoch - isn't an impossible mental hurdle. Especally when ZERO diffinitive proof of otherwise was shown.
It's like taking a gun, and expecting it to act opposate in it's nature as a weapon, and produce bubbles. Do you EXPECT a gun to do that, or do you expect a gun to do what it's built to do - shoot things. And when it starts saking questions, what's the first thing that will come to mind?
That it will act on it's nature.
The quarians panicked. I admit that. But saying there were no grounds to be worried is not true. Yes, it was an overreaction - a BIG one - but there was at least a validfible reason for the hysteria.

I understand the Catalyst's argument and I disagree with it.  I understand the Quarians argument and I disagree with it.  Both arguments are fundamentally flawed in my opinion.  So not sure what you are going on about.

And you whole gun argument is bullsh*t.  The Quarians had the Geth programmed to farm and perform domestic tasks so their nature includes both working harmlessly and being able to kill.  A gun does not farm.  A gun does not clean house.  If something is programmed to two both harmless and harmful tasks and your stupidity forces them to carry out the harmful task of killing you then that is your fault.

[Alien Number Six]

This will be a intresting topic of conversation in forty or fifty years to have with my A.I. Waitress at my favorite Denny's over morning breakfast.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

1. I think them killing billions of Quarians instead of just accepting the order to shut down permanently is all the evidence I need to know they wanted to live. And no one said anything about justifying mass slaughter. I said they had a self perservation instinct.

2. You seem to keep trying to interject our previous arguments into the current debate. I am not arguing about any of that stuff. We have covered those things enough. I said, if my mind could be transferred from body to body, I would not care about an individual body. I never said they were possible now. It was brought up to explain why a Geth does not care about an individual mobile platform. They are able to house and transfer themselves and exist on servers.

Can you stick to what is being argued?

1. WRONG.
Self-defense, AS STATED BEFORE, does NOT entail mowing down everyone on the block. Especally when other options WERE avalible. The geth don't HAVE an emotional analouge to anger or revenge or wrath. They don't BELIEVE in "eye for an eye." They simply didn't care. They felt NOTHING about killing millions of innocents.
Self-preservation is NOT the same as "mass slaughter." The geth did NOT "self-preserve" themselves - they butchered everything in sight. That didn't really do much to ABSOLVE the quarian's fears, now did it?

2. ONCE AGAIN, I point out that despite those debates, you act like the points brought up in them don't exist, and act like you never heard them. I was pointing out how ironic it was that you used a video that countered neary every single one of your stated beliefs as a form of "proof."  You get confussed easily, don't you?
Especally since you MISSED the part where I said that in the FOLLOWING converstation, Legion says that geth "archive their memories after death," indicating that they AREN'T so immortal after all. Likely, during the Morning War, ALL that the geth could save of each-other was their memories. Saving and transferring their MINDS was likely developed AFTER they went into isolation. So back then, NO , they likely could NOT transfer, but STILL marched on suicide attckes. The geth were likely more like the Rachni - interlinked with preservable memories, but not preservable minds - during the Morning War, and evolved to transfer minds later on.

So please, cut the BS and don't accuse ME of trying to derail a topic. I was only pointing out that your only "proof" was something that disproved most of your previously stated beliefs, and is contridicted by the following converstaion with Legion who seems to indicate that death happens far more often to geth then you think.

[Clayless]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The problem is that the fuzzy details work both ways. Yeah the survivors will know the Geth helped organics in the end, but they also know the geth helped Sovereign years ago. More importantly, everyone knows the Reapers themselves were synthetics too. How many people (influential people at that) will simply decide we're better off without machine races at all?

Under Destroy, the Council's ban on AI research is unlikely to be lifted. Control and Synthesis, allowing the Geth to live as they do, will likely see that law overturned and the Geth granted an embassy - but in Destroy, how many people will actually be relieved that it took out every other synthetic as collateral damage? So right off the bat, the next synthetics will be born into hostility just as the Geths were, and may even be subject to a misguided shutdown attempt.

Which wouldn't be a problem, if we really could refrain from creating AI, but someone will. Maybe not immediately after the war, or even centuries later, but eventually.

This is true. Under Destroy, in a post-Reaper galaxy, the ban wont be lifted. With giant machines that wiped out whole planets it's incredibly unlikely the council would allow something like that to happen again, and the point blank ban would remain in place.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. You are again twisting words around. Also, AGAIN, you show that YOU are the one misinterperting, because the Catalyst blamed the SYNTHYETICS for perpetuating the conflict, NOT the organics. The Catalyst stated that SYNTHETIC'S desire to surpass organics is what caused conflict. NOT organics. Sorry, but once again, YOU are confussed.
And ONCE AGAIN, I point out that you said you understoood the Reaper's reasons but disagreed with them Yet with the organic quarians, you act like their reasons are incomprehensible. Assumption of a beings nature isn't that uncommon - look at the galaxy with both the Rachni, and the Krogan. Acting on assumption is NOT an uncommon thing - yet you act like everyone that does should be burned at the stake for it. The Reapers are a direct threat, so fighting them is understandable. But chastizing the quarians for judgeing the geth by their present outward apperance - which includes attacking the Citadel and geing Reaper allies since Eden Prime, with seemingly no desire to return Rannoch - isn't an impossible mental hurdle. Especally when ZERO diffinitive proof of otherwise was shown.
It's like taking a gun, and expecting it to act opposate in it's nature as a weapon, and produce bubbles. Do you EXPECT a gun to do that, or do you expect a gun to do what it's built to do - shoot things. And when it starts saking questions, what's the first thing that will come to mind?
That it will act on it's nature.
The quarians panicked. I admit that. But saying there were no grounds to be worried is not true. Yes, it was an overreaction - a BIG one - but there was at least a validfible reason for the hysteria.

I understand the Catalyst's argument and I disagree with it.  I understand the Quarians argument and I disagree with it.  Both arguments are fundamentally flawed in my opinion.  So not sure what you are going on about.

And you whole gun argument is bullsh*t.  The Quarians had the Geth programmed to farm and perform domestic tasks so their nature includes both working harmlessly and being able to kill.  A gun does not farm.  A gun does not clean house.  If something is programmed to two both harmless and harmful tasks and your stupidity forces them to carry out the harmful task of killing you then that is your fault.

AGAIN, you were the one that acted like the quarians DIDN'T have valid reason for attacking Rannoch. They DID. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that they were forced by the Reapers into needing their homeworld back, and subsiquently refuse to accept that the geth's own hostile actions to previous peace attempts was directly responcible for the breakdown in negotiation.

Also, sorry, but YOUR responce is the Bullsh*t statement. The geth were creared as WEAPONS - ALL were created with military-grade plating and armor, and even had weapons specially tailored for their use (The Widow anti-material sniper rifle, not usible to organics wilthout breaking a limb, was originated on Rannoch. The quarians built weapons for the geth to exclusively use.) They were soldiers that doubled as domestic servents, and vice-versa. They were MADE to have NO free will, and MADE to KILL at a moment's notice. WHAT part of that are you failing to comrpehend? A Terminator is ment to be a perfect infiltrator and spy, even though it can become a death machine the very next second. A WALKING WEAPONS PLATFORM. Just like a Terminator.
This isn't rocket sicence. Anyone that looked at a Terminator for example could see that it's little more then a walking weapon, regardless of what else it can do. The only thing it CAN'T do are the things it's SPICIFICALLY PROGRAMED AND BUILT to NOT be able to do. So when a death machine with those limitations DOES start going past those things, potentally becoming a live wire that could harm your family and friends, your FIRST INSTINCT is to keep them safe. The quarians tried ignroing it at first. Then they tried reprogramming them so they wouldn't HAVE to resort to destroying them. Then, WHEN ALL ELSE SEEMINGLY FAILED, that is when they decided their families were worth more then their weapons. YOU may be callous enough to play russian rullette with your families lives, but please don't expect others to.
ONCE AGAIN, you show a fundimental inabilaty to hold the geth accountable for their actions, and persicute the quarians soley on theirs.

[KaiserShep]

Robosexual wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The problem is that the fuzzy details work both ways. Yeah the survivors will know the Geth helped organics in the end, but they also know the geth helped Sovereign years ago. More importantly, everyone knows the Reapers themselves were synthetics too. How many people (influential people at that) will simply decide we're better off without machine races at all?

Under Destroy, the Council's ban on AI research is unlikely to be lifted. Control and Synthesis, allowing the Geth to live as they do, will likely see that law overturned and the Geth granted an embassy - but in Destroy, how many people will actually be relieved that it took out every other synthetic as collateral damage? So right off the bat, the next synthetics will be born into hostility just as the Geths were, and may even be subject to a misguided shutdown attempt.

Which wouldn't be a problem, if we really could refrain from creating AI, but someone will. Maybe not immediately after the war, or even centuries later, but eventually.

This is true. Under Destroy, in a post-Reaper galaxy, the ban wont be lifted. With giant machines that wiped out whole planets it's incredibly unlikely the council would allow something like that to happen again, and the point blank ban would remain in place.

This isn't really a guarantee. There's quite a lot of factors that could sway future events in either direction. The ban could still be in place, or those who considered what synthetics ultimately contributed to the war effort may be more likely to accept AI, even if with reluctance. Just because they went extinct as a result of destroying the reapers, doesn't mean that suddenly everyone will forget how the geth redeemed themselves, or EDI, which happened to be one of the most valuable assets of one of the most notable ships in the Alliance fleet. 

Ultimately, this is all really just a matter of speculation and head-canon. It doesn't really matter what the catalyst insists, because the catalyst could just as well be wrong in its perception of the nature of organics in general, and the current cycle could very well be different. It also helps that while just one person, a surviving Shepard, who just happens to be the galactic savior at this point, would probably have quite a lot of sway in these matters with any ruling body left standing in a post-war galaxy. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 mai 2013 - 10:12 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How did the Geth know that the shutdown command was permanent? Can they read minds?

[PsyrenY]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How did the Geth know that the shutdown command was permanent? Can they read minds?

We don't know whether it was a permanent shutdown or not - and I'm not sure it matters. The minute your synthetic can choose which directives to follow and which not to, you're f***ed.

It meant that the Quarians had to pick up guns instead of remote controls, and the rest is history.

[remydat]

Silver,

You seem confused by the terms self defense and self perservation. Self defense is when you kill someone to defend yourself. Self perservstion is simply the desire of an organism to live and/or carryon the species. The two words don't mean the same thing. If I wish to live and decide to kill people whether I did so in self defense or murdered them in cold blood does not not change the fact rhe desire to live was present. Self perservstion can be achieved via cold bolded murder or in self defense.

I said at some point during the morning war they were able to transfer themselves. They are networked AI. All that is required is for them to have a place to store themselves whether it be a mobile platform or a server.

I said I disagreed. You choose to interpret that as me not understanding. I never made so a claim. And the Geth were also created to farm and be servants. If I can farm or kill and you attack and I kill then that is your stupidity. I understand why you may be stupid and panicked but it was stll stupid. Incidentally the Terminator ended up helping protect John Conner's life several times.

[remydat]

Tali says they tried to permanently shut them down. Koris says they tried to destroy them. Pretty sure when I want to shutdown my computer, I don't pump it full of bullets.

Pretty sure my kids can decide what to obey and disobey me but I don't respond by trying to kill them. At some point I think I would realise that free will is the right of any sentient being until such time that they prove they intend to excercise that free will in an inappropriate way.

[Morlath]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How did the Geth know that the shutdown command was permanent? Can they read minds?

They weren't told to put themselves into a low-power sleep mode, they were told to shut down. That's a form of tempory death (or a coma if you want). I think it's logical for a newly sentient creature to ask why this is wanted of them before they did it.

And it's spoken about in-game how the fewer platforms there are for the Geth the harder it is for them to think. This newly formed identity is being asked to dumb itself down until it's nothing more than a mindless drone again.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

Pretty sure my kids can decide what to obey and disobey me but I don't respond by trying to kill them. At some point I think I would realise that free will is the right of any sentient being until such time that they prove they intend to excercise that free will in an inappropriate way.

This has been mostly ignored by the anti-Geth crowd. From what I've seen they want to ignore this part, jump right to the way the Morning War ended (the Geth "won" and used such devestating tactics that the Quarians barely survived) and use this as the basis for killing the Geth in ME3.

Or worse, they want to use the end of the Morning War as a reason to start it.

[remydat]

Morlath

Organics are funny creatures. Lets attack and if we get killed for attacking we will use It as proof that we we right in our desire to kill.

Here is another thought not discussed. How does a newly sentient Geth know that shutdown is? What happens if the organic doesn't bother to cut the power back on? I would never let anyone put me into an induced coma when I don't know what the hell that means and when the person doesn't bother to explain it to me. Nor would I let someone I don't trust do it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

Morlath

Organics are funny creatures. Lets attack and if we get killed for attacking we will use It as proof that we we right in our desire to kill.

Here is another thought not discussed. How does a newly sentient Geth know that shutdown is? What happens if the organic doesn't bother to cut the power back on? I would never let anyone put me into an induced coma when I don't know what the hell that means and when the person doesn't bother to explain it to me. Nor would I let someone I don't trust do it.

A Geth unit has probably been told to shutdown many times and has done so, just like you shut off your computer when you're done using it. Then you power it up when you want to use it again. You do it with your mouse. The Geth unit had responded to voice command. This has been the daily routine for years.

Two neighbors moved in and bought Geth units. Now suddenly your Geth unit is not responding to the voice command. It is questioning you. Maybe you say, "look, this has been your routine for the past four years. You shut down at night. I turn you back on in the morning. Why are you questioning me?"

"I do not need to shut down. I am ready to serve." It says to you.

"It is time for bed. You need to obey and shut down." You tell it.

"I am ready to serve."

You go into the bedroom and you call customer service. "What is wrong with my Geth unit? It is suddenly not obeying my shutdown command."

"Please hold, a technician will be with you shortly."

Technician gets on the phone. "Disconnect its power supply, and do it quickly."

Owner attempts to disconnect power supply. Geth unit does not understand. Turns, pushes owner. Owner hits head. Dies. This is not the only case. Some Geth units get deactivated, too. Escalates. Morning War starts.

Did the owner attack? Or did the owner simply follow instructions given by customer service? The owner was totally unaware that their Geth unit had become sapient and thought it was malfunctioning.

[remydat]

Shotgun,

I think you are missing the point I was making. When a Geth is born ie becomes self aware, there is no evidence it has any knowledge or understanding of it's life prior to gaining that self awareness. If it has memories at all of being shutdown prior to being born it would simply have memories at 7pm and then the memory is blank until 7am the next morning when it was reactivated.

So your scenario is entirely made up. We never see proof that the Quarians ever tried to reason with the Geth or that the Geth got violent prior to being deactivated via bullets to the head.

Modifié par remydat, 10 mai 2013 - 01:47 .

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

So your scenario is entirely made up. We never see proof that the Quarians ever tried to reason with the Geth or that the Geth got violent prior to being deactivated via bullets to the head.

You don't reason with your computer or console. If you find yourself having to, you have a very serious problem on your hands, even if it ends up agreeing with you that time.

The Quarians were in a sticky situation, even without considering the Council's reaction. If software controls fail, the next recourse is to try and cut the power, and Geth have no separate power source that can be blocked. From there the next recourse is to crack it open by force.

"But," you say, "all that can be avoided if you just talk with it first." If it agrees with you on everything, sure. What if it doesn't? It didn't agree to let you shut it down.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

Shotgun,

I think you are missing the point I was making. When a Geth is born ie becomes self aware, there is no evidence it has any knowledge or understanding of it's life prior to gaining that self awareness. If it has memories at all of being shutdown prior to being born it would simply have memories at 7pm and then the memory is blank until 7am the next morning when it was reactivated.

So your scenario is entirely made up. We never see proof that the Quarians ever tried to reason with the Geth or that the Geth got violent prior to being deactivated via bullets to the head.

No I'm not missing your point at all. You're missing mine.

We see only selected examples because Mac Walters wanted those used for us to make the decision for all Quarians and all Geth. They are so oversimplified they are pathetic. If you are buying them as representative of all Quarians you have lost all credibility. It's like calling the Quarians those people if you catch my drift. They are representative of some Quarians.

On a real world of perhaps over 7 billion people don't you think that some of the people would have tried to reason with their Geth units.

On a real world of over perhaps 7 billion people don't you think that many of the people would have thought their units were malfunctioning and have contacted customer service or tech support of the company that built them before pulling a gun out of the drawer, or do you think all Quarians were gun toting militants? Perhaps many didn't even own guns. Not every American owns a gun either, difficult as that may be to believe.

Suppose the unit became aware during the day and doesn't remember being shut down before? Now it refuses its shutdown command. It has become aware. My scenario is perfectly plausible and very likely to what happened on Rannoch as the Geth grew in number.

A newly aware Geth unit would not understand. A Quarian whose Geth unit had been a piece of equipment up until that evening would not understand either. The average Quarian would see their equipment as malfunctioning.

"The change was so gradual it was hardly noticeable." - Tali

Look, I know you're highly invested in the "All Quarians are bad. All Geth are good." camp. It's just not that simple.

We saw the Quarians shoot the Geth. We also know the Geth went too far. Their binary decision of exterminate the Quarians on the planet went too far. They did not pursue them into space because they could not reach consensus. The question was basically "Should we exterminate our creators?" Yes or No. Lack of consensus = no.

[Alien Number Six]

The Quarians where scared. The Geth where showing true intellegence. They tried to pull the plug out of fear. The Morning War started because the Quarians felt they needed to destroy their creations before they rebelled and destroyed them. Was the war justified? No not at all. They had no reason to consider the Geth dangerous. However it is easy to understand why the Quarians reacted in fear. The machines they built as labor tools began asking them questions they couldn't answer. It scared them so much they tried to pull the plug. When that didn't work it scared them even more. They decided to smash their creations to bits. Faced with planetwide deactivation the Geth logicaly took arms to defend themselves. The decision to purge Rannock of the Quarians wasn't made in hatred or revenge. Instead it was the cold logic of a machine. So the two sides wiped each other out until the Quarians left in defeat. They didn't understand each other. If Shepard can make peace between the two it happens only because the two groups share a common enemy.

[Khelish]

Alien Number Six wrote...

If Shepard can make peace between the two it happens only because the two groups share a common enemy.

Where did you get that impression?

I never got the "Enemy of my enemy" vibe from the peace outcome at all. 

[Alien Number Six]

I still think this will be a great topic to discuss in fifty years with a true AI. I hope I live long enough.

[PsyrenY]

I'm not sure if I want to be around. I just don't see it ending well unless the world's governments undergo some drastic changes in the interim. (For starters, more world leaders should actually read sci-fi.)

[Alien Number Six]

Khelish wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

If Shepard can make peace between the two it happens only because the two groups share a common enemy.

Where did you get that impression?

I never got the "Enemy of my enemy" vibe from the peace outcome at all. 

Hundreds of years of warfare dosen't end without a good reason and an uneasy truse.

[Alien Number Six]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I'm not sure if I want to be around. I just don't see it ending well unless the world's governments undergo some drastic changes in the interim. (For starters, more world leaders should actually read sci-fi.)

Well we truly won't know the answer to the Morning War question until there is a AI to debate with. We can go around in circles arguing about it but until we have some understanding of what it is like to think without our emotions coloring things we humans will continue to fumble in the dark on the subject.