889 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...

Phatose wrote...

There's a big problem there.

EDI won't be always polite. She may not complain about her feet hurting, but the boredom?

You're not describing an actual AI, you're describing a VI.

EDI doesn'T even have feet, the humanoid robot is just a tool to her.

Why would an AI be bored? You can always give it tasks to run as background processes.

Also, I'm fine with my coffee being served by a robot, but the "always look good" thing is beyond me.

Because you're coming back to the issue that the Quarians had with the Geth. If the machine is an AI and not a VI then it'll have individual tastes and opinions unless the programming is so locked in as to make it a slave. Some AIs might be "happy" doing manual labour but a lot wouldn't.

Just like humans.

[Phatose]

Alien Number Six wrote...

I didn't describe anything. This is Lisa's take on it. My wife Anna and I always ask for her when we go to Denny's for breakfast. But you do have a good point. However I think Lisa is right. Something like EDI may view being rude as failing the task at hand. Also she has no emotions. No feelings to be hurt. If someone tells her she is doing a bad job and the food is garbage she won't get angry about it.

EDI has emotions.  She may not completely understand them, but she clearly actually has them - see how she reacts when retaking the Normandy in the citadel DLC.  She's angry about being violated.

Even Legion shows some very sentimental behavior back in ME2 before any Reaper code comes into play. 

AI's ain't Vulcans.

[Alien Number Six]

Argolas wrote...

Phatose wrote...

There's a big problem there.

EDI won't be always polite. She may not complain about her feet hurting, but the boredom?

You're not describing an actual AI, you're describing a VI.

EDI doesn'T even have feet, the humanoid robot is just a tool to her.

Why would an AI be bored? You can always give it tasks to run as background processes.

Also, I'm fine with my coffee being served by a robot, but the "always look good" thing is beyond me

I hate to admit this but it is true. I have seen my forty nine year old wife get rejected by companies and businesses for jobs she is more than qualified for in favor of a perky good looking twenty year old who dosen't know jack. A machine never grows old and never gets tired. Companies who prefer attractive young females as the face of their businesses will consider an AI to be a logical choice.

[Phatose]

Wouldn't they actually prefer...y'know....attractive young females?

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

Wouldn't they actually prefer...y'know....attractive young females?

Guess it depends.  If the machine looks like the chic from Terminator 3 (the hot machine) then not only does she never get old, she doesn't file sexual harassment lawsuits when she gets smacked on the a**, lol.

[Phatose]

Yeah, but to actually have it satisfying you'd need to go real far.

The chick from Terminator is hot, yeah. But my experience has been that businesses looking for that kind of thing one more then simple hotness. They want the women to be able to use their hotness - flirting, disarming laughter. The ability to read clients is as important as outright attractiveness in such cases.

Can you really get that level of analysis of someone's desires without giving it emotions that are gonna end up with it real pissed when you smack it on the ass?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

You seem confused by the terms self defense and self perservation. Self defense is when you kill someone to defend yourself. Self perservstion is simply the desire of an organism to live and/or carryon the species. The two words don't mean the same thing. If I wish to live and decide to kill people whether I did so in self defense or murdered them in cold blood does not not change the fact rhe desire to live was present. Self perservstion can be achieved via cold bolded murder or in self defense.

I said at some point during the morning war they were able to transfer themselves. They are networked AI. All that is required is for them to have a place to store themselves whether it be a mobile platform or a server.

I said I disagreed. You choose to interpret that as me not understanding. I never made so a claim. And the Geth were also created to farm and be servants. If I can farm or kill and you attack and I kill then that is your stupidity. I understand why you may be stupid and panicked but it was stll stupid. Incidentally the Terminator ended up helping protect John Conner's life several times.

So, what you are saying is that the geth DIDN'T act in self-preservation? Because AGAIN, mass murder doesn't equate self-preservation. The two words DO mean the same thing in that they stem from the same source. Self-preservation is DIRECTLY ENFORCED by self-defense, and self-defense is WHAT HAPPENS when acting in self-preservation. Once again, YOU are the confussed one. Because mass murder does NOT equate EITHER of the above. Self-preservation is a more "flexible" term then self-defense. Self-defense  REQUIRES being attacked first, but it STILL acts in self-preservation.
So NO, YOU are the one that mixed up the definitions. Self-preservation is a stand-alone term. Self-defense is DEPENDANT on self-preservation and can't exist without it being in effect. Self-defense DOES mean self-preservation - against an outside threat.

And AGAIN, wrong. They were able to ARCHIVE MEMORIES. NOT transfer complete beings. That didn't happen till their isolation. The geth were only JUST discovering the power of their internetworked intelligence. And most of their resoruces following their awakening into sapiance were focused on resisting and rebelling against the quarians. So NO, it's not all that concivable that they had the power to transfer programs from platform to server like that back then. And LEGION certenly needed one on the Collector Station if he dies, or on the Reaper corpse if you never reactivate him. But back then, their internetworked intelligence was NEW to them - untested. They PHYSICALLY could not have been at that level, because they had only JUST discovered the power of consensis, and were still too focused on the quarians to develop the networking.

AGAIN, they were created as mobile weapon platforms that could multitask.
Do me a favor - watch "I, Robot," and look what happens when the "domistic" robots are given too much freedom. Those robots weren't servents, and THEY were still lethal. Even COMPLETELY UNARMED, Legion nearly killed Shepard with a single hand. Synthetics have much more strength then an organic. They are weapons by design. ONCE AGAIN, you completely misinterpert the situation, and display a massive amount of CALLOUSNES to the safety of your family.
You are saying that in a situation where your automated servent could suddenly go berserk and KILL YOUR FAMILY, you would sit back and let the problem fester? Because I'm pretty sure that if that synthetic rips your brother apart, that will be YOUR fault too, and YOUR stupidity for leaving such a threat to your families safety roam free. EITHER WAY, you get someones blood on your hands. Either way, it looks like someone's going to die. You're saying that you'd rather have your brother's blood on your hands then the synthetic's?
I really didn't think you were that callous. You'd play russian roullett with your brother and family for a belief? For the risk that a war machine WON'T wage war, as it's programming dictates?
ANYONE wold pick their families over the machine, especally when they aren't aware that said beings have their own opinion on something.

[Alien Number Six]

remydat wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Wouldn't they actually prefer...y'know....attractive young females?

Guess it depends.  If the machine looks like the chic from Terminator 3 (the hot machine) then not only does she never get old, she doesn't file sexual harassment lawsuits when she gets smacked on the a**, lol.

This is also a good point. Will labor laws and human issues factor into our future when the AI machines take over the job market. Will the AI require a break, a vacation? Health care won't be an issue but perhaps maintance will replaces it. Will you insure the AI just as you would a human employee? Will workers compensation cover AIs. What about unemployment? Will we have machines protesting for equal rights? It seems that the Quarians attemped to avoid these tough questions all together by deactivating their creations. Will we make the same mistake when a bit of code asks if it has a soul?

[remydat]

Phatose wrote...

Yeah, but to actually have it satisfying you'd need to go real far.

The chick from Terminator is hot, yeah. But my experience has been that businesses looking for that kind of thing one more then simple hotness. They want the women to be able to use their hotness - flirting, disarming laughter. The ability to read clients is as important as outright attractiveness in such cases.

Can you really get that level of analysis of someone's desires without giving it emotions that are gonna end up with it real pissed when you smack it on the ass?

I suppose if she has human stereotypes of what should offend a women no.  But if Shep smacked EDI's a**, would EDI care?  Perhaps if she is already with Joker but most likely it would be because Joker considers it wrong not because she does as she does not view her a** as a sexual part.  I guess the point is I think we are assuming she adopts organic ideas of these things which is not necessarily the case.

Modifié par remydat, 11 mai 2013 - 01:27 .

[remydat]

Silver,

So you basically just said the same thing I said but somehow think you are disagreeing with me. Self perservation can be achieved via self defense or via murder. Do you agree or disagree?

The Geth are software. Their memories are just data. If you take all the data that represents a Geth and archive it, what do you think you are doing Silver?

No I am saying if my automated servant become sentient I would talk to it to see what it intends to do. Why? One because I am not an a**hole that just kills things I don't understand and two If it has made no attempt or given any indication that it wants to kill my family then I put my family at greater risk by being an a**hole and provoking it. On an extremely arrogant idiot f**ks with something that like you said could kill you with one hand when it hasn't done anything to warrant f**king with it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

No I'm not missing your point at all. You're missing mine.

We see only selected examples because Mac Walters wanted those used for us to make the decision for all Quarians and all Geth. They are so oversimplified they are pathetic. If you are buying them as representative of all Quarians you have lost all credibility. It's like calling the Quarians those people if you catch my drift. They are representative of some Quarians.

On a real world of perhaps over 7 billion people don't you think that some of the people would have tried to reason with their Geth units.

On a real world of over perhaps 7 billion people don't you think that many of the people would have thought their units were malfunctioning and have contacted customer service or tech support of the company that built them before pulling a gun out of the drawer, or do you think all Quarians were gun toting militants? Perhaps many didn't even own guns. Not every American owns a gun either, difficult as that may be to believe.

Suppose the unit became aware during the day and doesn't remember being shut down before? Now it refuses its shutdown command. It has become aware. My scenario is perfectly plausible and very likely to what happened on Rannoch as the Geth grew in number.

A newly aware Geth unit would not understand. A Quarian whose Geth unit had been a piece of equipment up until that evening would not understand either. The average Quarian would see their equipment as malfunctioning.

"The change was so gradual it was hardly noticeable." - Tali

Look, I know you're highly invested in the "All Quarians are bad. All Geth are good." camp. It's just not that simple.

We saw the Quarians shoot the Geth. We also know the Geth went too far. Their binary decision of exterminate the Quarians on the planet went too far. They did not pursue them into space because they could not reach consensus. The question was basically "Should we exterminate our creators?" Yes or No. Lack of consensus = no.

So you want us to ignore what the writer wrote and believe your theory which just so happens to be favorable to the Quarians who we know you support?  That doesn't sound problematic to you?

Look, sure maybe some did try to reason with them.  Anything is possible.  However, judging by all the times in various threads people call the Geth toasters or just machines, I think the overwhelming majority of Quarians, or organics would have acted like how those Quarians acted.  I don't reason with my computer Shotgun.  If my mindset is that it is just equipment then if it is screwing up I talk to the organic that sold it to me or like you said customer service. 

For you to try and claim the majority tried to reason with it, you would have to prove the majority saw them as more than just equipment because once again, people don't reason with equipment.

So sure, maybe some dudes were like Koris and tried to reason with them.  However, it is perfectly clear to me that they were the minority because even in defending the Quarians you still do so by saying the Quarians saw them as malfunctioning equipment which by extension means the vast majority would have no reason to reason with equipment because it is in fact equipment.  They would need to think of the Geth as emerging sentient life for them to then try and reason with them.  It is clear they didn't and the ones that did mostly the miliatry saw that emerging sentient life as a threat to be exterminated.

And the Geth did not understand and asked questions.  The Qurians did not understand and killed.  See the difference Shotgun?  There is no way to try and morally equate those two things by saying oh well both of them did not understand the other.  That is true.  The difference is one responded initially by asking questions while the other responded by killing them.  What came after (Geth killing them in response) is up for debate but the start of it cannot be debated.

Wow..... Bold.... Print. I never claimed that.

You've got issues. Just because I said that all Quarians weren't gun toting militants doesn't mean they were all like that suit-wetter Koris and reasoned with them....

No. First response isn't grabbing a shotgun and shooting it in the face. If you think that's a first response you've got issues.

Their geth unit malfunctioned. They probably contacted customer service.

"Hello, my Geth unit is refusing my command to shut down. It keeps saying 'I am ready to serve.' What should I do?"

"(Sir or Ma'am), pull its power supply."

"But won't that void the warranty?"

"Don't worry about that. Just do it. Quickly."

They saw them as equipment. I don't see my computer as a person or anything other than equipment. If it started talking to me I'd probably first do Ctrl-Alt-Del, and end task. If it refused, I'd do a hard shutdown.

How can you kill equipment? You are making an assumption that they are seeing it as alive. How can you kill something you don't know is aware? It is a machine. Your education has defined life as organic life. That is what you know. That is what we know here now. So a Quarian will be seeing their Geth unit as a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning. See the difference? This is the way it was at the beginning of the Morning War.

When your equipment starts questioning your commands, you've got big problems.

[remydat]

Alien Number Six wrote...

This is also a good point. Will labor laws and human issues factor into our future when the AI machines take over the job market. Will the AI require a break, a vacation? Health care won't be an issue but perhaps maintance will replaces it. Will you insure the AI just as you would a human employee? Will workers compensation cover AIs. What about unemployment? Will we have machines protesting for equal rights? It seems that the Quarians attemped to avoid these tough questions all together by deactivating their creations. Will we make the same mistake when a bit of code asks if it has a soul?

Ultimately that depends on what the AI wants really.  The Geth for example post peace seem to have no problem helping or serving the Quarians.  They go out of their way to do so and the Quarians can give them nothing in return.  So it sure seems to me that the Quarians assuming they would have seen themselves as slaves and rebelled was in fact the Quarians error.

There is no reason to assume an AI would naturally be p*ssed about being a waitress nor is there any reason to assume they would not be p*ssed.  The reality is we don't know so rather than making assumptions for it, the logical answer is to ask.  I suspect some would be perfectly happy performing the task and some would not.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Phatose wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

I didn't describe anything. This is Lisa's take on it. My wife Anna and I always ask for her when we go to Denny's for breakfast. But you do have a good point. However I think Lisa is right. Something like EDI may view being rude as failing the task at hand. Also she has no emotions. No feelings to be hurt. If someone tells her she is doing a bad job and the food is garbage she won't get angry about it.

EDI has emotions.  She may not completely understand them, but she clearly actually has them - see how she reacts when retaking the Normandy in the citadel DLC.  She's angry about being violated.

Even Legion shows some very sentimental behavior back in ME2 before any Reaper code comes into play. 

AI's ain't Vulcans.

They are played by human actors. Tricia Helfer in the case of EDI. EDI was written with simulated emotional algorithms. Legion just grabbed a piece of N7 armor because there was a hole and has insufficient data -- sentimental?

Vulcans do have emotions. They simply supress them.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Wow..... Bold.... Print. I never claimed that.

You've got issues. Just because I said that all Quarians weren't gun toting militants doesn't mean they were all like that suit-wetter Koris and reasoned with them....

No. First response isn't grabbing a shotgun and shooting it in the face. If you think that's a first response you've got issues.

Their geth unit malfunctioned. They probably contacted customer service.

"Hello, my Geth unit is refusing my command to shut down. It keeps saying 'I am ready to serve.' What should I do?"

"(Sir or Ma'am), pull its power supply."

"But won't that void the warranty?"

"Don't worry about that. Just do it. Quickly."

They saw them as equipment. I don't see my computer as a person or anything other than equipment. If it started talking to me I'd probably first do Ctrl-Alt-Del, and end task. If it refused, I'd do a hard shutdown.

How can you kill equipment? You are making an assumption that they are seeing it as alive. How can you kill something you don't know is aware? It is a machine. Your education has defined life as organic life. That is what you know. That is what we know here now. So a Quarian will be seeing their Geth unit as a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning. See the difference? This is the way it was at the beginning of the Morning War.

When your equipment starts questioning your commands, you've got big problems.

No I am not making the assumption they see it as alive.  I agree with you they thought it was equipment.  That is the point.  Your argument that some reasoned with it is what I was challenging.  If you think something is equipment you don't reason with it because it is equipment.  Reasoning with it is illogical if that is what you believe so I consider those two ideas contradictory.

The second point is this is is irrelevant from the Geth perspective.  If you refuse to see the Geth as anything more than equipment and you try and forcibly shut it down, you can't cry when they kill you in response.  That is my point.  You can consider them as just equipment at your own risk.  Once you do, I am pulling a Pontius Pilate and washing my hands of this affair and if you die as a result of your refusing to see them as anything more than equipment then oh well.

The bold is where we disagree.  If my equipment starts showing signs of sentiece then I don't consider that a problem.  I consider it an amazing development that should be investigated.  I don't jump to conclusions.  If ultimately my computer is alive then guess what, I can get one that isn't.  There are millions if not billions of non-sentient computers.  I can't buy a sentient computer.  It is special and one of a kind so why the hell would my instinct be shut it down and destory it just so it could go back to being like any other computer in the world?  Perhaps I am a glass half full type. 

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They are played by human actors. Tricia Helfer in the case of EDI. EDI was written with simulated emotional algorithms. Legion just grabbed a piece of N7 armor because there was a hole and has insufficient data -- sentimental?

Vulcans do have emotions. They simply supress them.

If it was just because it had a hole in it then it wouldn't be insufficient data.  Pretty sure I needed to repair myself and this was just laying around does not warrant an insufficent data response.  Shep also wouldn't have asked him why it had to be his armor.  The logical conclusion is that Legion has insufficent data because it was done in part due to emotion and sentiment but since he does not understand emotions fully he has no data to express that emotion.

[Phatose]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

I didn't describe anything. This is Lisa's take on it. My wife Anna and I always ask for her when we go to Denny's for breakfast. But you do have a good point. However I think Lisa is right. Something like EDI may view being rude as failing the task at hand. Also she has no emotions. No feelings to be hurt. If someone tells her she is doing a bad job and the food is garbage she won't get angry about it.

EDI has emotions.  She may not completely understand them, but she clearly actually has them - see how she reacts when retaking the Normandy in the citadel DLC.  She's angry about being violated.

Even Legion shows some very sentimental behavior back in ME2 before any Reaper code comes into play. 

AI's ain't Vulcans.

They are played by human actors. Tricia Helfer in the case of EDI. EDI was written with simulated emotional algorithms. Legion just grabbed a piece of N7 armor because there was a hole and has insufficient data -- sentimental?

Vulcans do have emotions. They simply supress them.

Simulated emotions.  I love it.  Read much in philosophy?  There's a selection by Stanislaw Lem that's appropriate here.

"What, Klapaucius, would you
equate our existence with that of an imitation kingdom locked up in some glass
box?!" cried Trurl. "No, really, that's going too far! My purpose was
simply to fashion a simulator of statehood, a model cybernetically perfect,
nothing more!"



"Trurl! Our perfection is our
curse, for it draws down upon our every endeavor no end of unforeseeable
consequences!" Klapaucius said in a stentorian voice. "If an
imperfect imitator, wishing to inflict pain, were to build himself a crude idol
of wood or wax, and further give it some makeshift semblance of a sentient
being, his torture of the thing would be a paltry mockery indeed! But consider
a succession of improvements on this practice! Consider the next sculptor, who
builds a doll with a recording in its belly, that it may groan beneath his
blows; consider a doll which, when beaten, begs for mercy, no longer a crude
idol, but a homeostat; consider a doll that sheds tears, a doll that bleeds, a
doll that fears death, though it also longs for the peace that only death can
bring! Don't you see, when the imitator is perfect, so must be the imitation,
and the semblance becomes the truth, the pretense a reality! Trurl, you took an
untold number of creatures capable of suffering and abandoned them forever to
the rule of a wicked tyrant.... Trurl, you have committed a terrible
crime!"

Stanislaw Lem, The Seventh Sally or How Trurl's Own Perfection
Led to No Good

That's the problem with "simulated emotions".  If they're worth a damn, they're not simulated anymore.

[remydat]

Here is a philosophical question. If a machine's fake emotions cause it to kill you, are you really dead? Or does the fact fake emotions cause your death render such death nothing more than an imitation of death?

What say you billions of dead Quarians? Are you really dead?

Billions of dead Quarians: (Sillence)

[Megaton_Hope]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They saw them as equipment. I don't see my computer as a person or anything other than equipment. If it started talking to me I'd probably first do Ctrl-Alt-Del, and end task. If it refused, I'd do a hard shutdown.

How can you kill equipment? You are making an assumption that they are seeing it as alive. How can you kill something you don't know is aware? It is a machine. Your education has defined life as organic life. That is what you know. That is what we know here now. So a Quarian will be seeing their Geth unit as a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning. See the difference? This is the way it was at the beginning of the Morning War.

When your equipment starts questioning your commands, you've got big problems.

What I wanna know is what impact they expect destroying a single platform to have, given that all the platforms are networked together and cooperate in forming a single consciousness by design. Every local Geth should share any software-only malfunction, the only thing you should be able to solve this way is a hardware-only malfunction that feeds the other Geth false input.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

Here is a philosophical question. If a machine's fake emotions cause it to kill you, are you really dead? Or does the fact fake emotions cause your death render such death nothing more than an imitation of death?

What say you billions of dead Quarians? Are you really dead?

Billions of dead Quarians: (Sillence)

How does it feel to be back on your home world, Tali?

What do you say about siding with the Reapers, Geth? Are you really dead?

Billions of dead Geth: (silence)

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How does it feel to be back on your home world, Tali?

What do you say about siding with the Reapers, Geth? Are you really dead?

Billions of dead Geth: (silence)

While I appreciate the effort, there is no real punchline here.  The joke was about fake emotions resulting in real deaths as a means to suggest those emotions were perhaps not as fake as people try to protray which ties into Phatose's point about simulated emotions.

This just seems to be a ****** for tat that doesn't actually serve any purpose beyond being a ****** for tat as it doesn't really contect to Phatose's point at all.

Modifié par remydat, 11 mai 2013 - 03:07 .

[remydat]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

What I wanna know is what impact they expect destroying a single platform to have, given that all the platforms are networked together and cooperate in forming a single consciousness by design. Every local Geth should share any software-only malfunction, the only thing you should be able to solve this way is a hardware-only malfunction that feeds the other Geth false input.

Well the problem is murdering out of paranoid fear isn't very rational so they probably didn't think about this or about what happens if the Geth fight back.  If they had perhaps they would have realised they are putting their kids more at risk by provoking machines that can kill them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They saw them as equipment. I don't see my computer as a person or anything other than equipment. If it started talking to me I'd probably first do Ctrl-Alt-Del, and end task. If it refused, I'd do a hard shutdown.

How can you kill equipment? You are making an assumption that they are seeing it as alive. How can you kill something you don't know is aware? It is a machine. Your education has defined life as organic life. That is what you know. That is what we know here now. So a Quarian will be seeing their Geth unit as a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning. See the difference? This is the way it was at the beginning of the Morning War.

When your equipment starts questioning your commands, you've got big problems.

What I wanna know is what impact they expect destroying a single platform to have, given that all the platforms are networked together and cooperate in forming a single consciousness by design. Every local Geth should share any software-only malfunction, the only thing you should be able to solve this way is a hardware-only malfunction that feeds the other Geth false input.

Obviously there were too many pants wetters who were worried about trying a software solution by introducing a virus into the Geth network that would cause them to shut down since nothing is mentioned of the sort.

Actually they were designed to be able to cooperate and form localized consciousness, not a single global consciousness. The problem was the Quarians made too many Geth and they formed a global consciousness. That's why they had to shut down all of them or a large percentage of them. They couldn't act quickly enough. It's like having too many cooks in the kitchen. One too many and the food doesn't come out right.

I will say one thing that this thread has given me: Incentive to sell Legion to Cerberus, and pump three shots into Geth VI.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 11 mai 2013 - 03:20 .

[Alien Number Six]

I enjoyed the whole customer service argument Julia. Not only did it make sense it gave me a good laugh as well

Modifié par Alien Number Six, 11 mai 2013 - 03:27 .

[Alien Number Six]

How much do you get for Legion? I forgot.

[remydat]

50,000 credits which is a sh*tty deal.  You might as well activate him and let him die during the Collector Mission.  In many ways the We are not Legion VI is better than both Legion and Geth VI.  The dialogue and the fact We are not Legion keeps trolling Shep with the fact that They are not Legion is priceless especially with a female Shep who sounds hearbroken that Legion does not remember her.



We have no further comments on this topic.

Modifié par remydat, 11 mai 2013 - 03:52 .