889 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

What I wanna know is what impact they expect destroying a single platform to have, given that all the platforms are networked together and cooperate in forming a single consciousness by design. Every local Geth should share any software-only malfunction, the only thing you should be able to solve this way is a hardware-only malfunction that feeds the other Geth false input.

The more units connected to the network the smarter the Geth become. You destroy platforms and you destroy their intelligence.

And anyone who has ever known anyone to have a mental degenerative disease knows how horrible it is to watch someone's mental capacities degrade, especially when that person remembers how they used to be.

Modifié par Morlath, 11 mai 2013 - 04:25 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Obviously there were too many pants wetters who were worried about trying a software solution by introducing a virus into the Geth network that would cause them to shut down since nothing is mentioned of the sort.

The geth resist viruses by restoring from backup.

[silverexile17s]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Obviously there were too many pants wetters who were worried about trying a software solution by introducing a virus into the Geth network that would cause them to shut down since nothing is mentioned of the sort.

The geth resist viruses by restoring from backup.

Not when the virus attack is systemmic, overwhelming their processess and PREVENTING them from communicating at light-speed, destroying their consensis abilaty and subsiquently their immunity to viral attacks.
This is how Xen's weapon works. Remember the Alerei, where they said they were making definate progress in overhwhelming the geth's auto-corrective processes? Xen finished the weapon being developed on the Alerei, creating a viral weapon that floods the geth's thought processes, by simoultaniously flooding all systemic systems with junk data, cloging their systems and rendering them unable to fight back.
It's basically like a flash-bang, hitting all geth senses at once. It was the entire reason the quarians were doing so well, until the Reapers upgraded the geth to increase their processing power, rendering the weapon ineffective because the geth could now easily block out, delete, or rearange the streams of garbage data.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

No I'm not missing your point at all. You're missing mine.

We see only selected examples because Mac Walters wanted those used for us to make the decision for all Quarians and all Geth. They are so oversimplified they are pathetic. If you are buying them as representative of all Quarians you have lost all credibility. It's like calling the Quarians those people if you catch my drift. They are representative of some Quarians.

On a real world of perhaps over 7 billion people don't you think that some of the people would have tried to reason with their Geth units.

On a real world of over perhaps 7 billion people don't you think that many of the people would have thought their units were malfunctioning and have contacted customer service or tech support of the company that built them before pulling a gun out of the drawer, or do you think all Quarians were gun toting militants? Perhaps many didn't even own guns. Not every American owns a gun either, difficult as that may be to believe.

Suppose the unit became aware during the day and doesn't remember being shut down before? Now it refuses its shutdown command. It has become aware. My scenario is perfectly plausible and very likely to what happened on Rannoch as the Geth grew in number.

A newly aware Geth unit would not understand. A Quarian whose Geth unit had been a piece of equipment up until that evening would not understand either. The average Quarian would see their equipment as malfunctioning.

"The change was so gradual it was hardly noticeable." - Tali

Look, I know you're highly invested in the "All Quarians are bad. All Geth are good." camp. It's just not that simple.

We saw the Quarians shoot the Geth. We also know the Geth went too far. Their binary decision of exterminate the Quarians on the planet went too far. They did not pursue them into space because they could not reach consensus. The question was basically "Should we exterminate our creators?" Yes or No. Lack of consensus = no.

So you want us to ignore what the writer wrote and believe your theory which just so happens to be favorable to the Quarians who we know you support?  That doesn't sound problematic to you?

Look, sure maybe some did try to reason with them.  Anything is possible.  However, judging by all the times in various threads people call the Geth toasters or just machines, I think the overwhelming majority of Quarians, or organics would have acted like how those Quarians acted.  I don't reason with my computer Shotgun.  If my mindset is that it is just equipment then if it is screwing up I talk to the organic that sold it to me or like you said customer service. 

For you to try and claim the majority tried to reason with it, you would have to prove the majority saw them as more than just equipment because once again, people don't reason with equipment.

So sure, maybe some dudes were like Koris and tried to reason with them.  However, it is perfectly clear to me that they were the minority because even in defending the Quarians you still do so by saying the Quarians saw them as malfunctioning equipment which by extension means the vast majority would have no reason to reason with equipment because it is in fact equipment.  They would need to think of the Geth as emerging sentient life for them to then try and reason with them.  It is clear they didn't and the ones that did mostly the miliatry saw that emerging sentient life as a threat to be exterminated.

And the Geth did not understand and asked questions.  The Qurians did not understand and killed.  See the difference Shotgun?  There is no way to try and morally equate those two things by saying oh well both of them did not understand the other.  That is true.  The difference is one responded initially by asking questions while the other responded by killing them.  What came after (Geth killing them in response) is up for debate but the start of it cannot be debated.

Wow..... Bold.... Print. I never claimed that.

You've got issues. Just because I said that all Quarians weren't gun toting militants doesn't mean they were all like that suit-wetter Koris and reasoned with them....

No. First response isn't grabbing a shotgun and shooting it in the face. If you think that's a first response you've got issues.

Their geth unit malfunctioned. They probably contacted customer service.

"Hello, my Geth unit is refusing my command to shut down. It keeps saying 'I am ready to serve.' What should I do?"

"(Sir or Ma'am), pull its power supply."

"But won't that void the warranty?"

"Don't worry about that. Just do it. Quickly."

They saw them as equipment. I don't see my computer as a person or anything other than equipment. If it started talking to me I'd probably first do Ctrl-Alt-Del, and end task. If it refused, I'd do a hard shutdown.

How can you kill equipment? You are making an assumption that they are seeing it as alive. How can you kill something you don't know is aware? It is a machine. Your education has defined life as organic life. That is what you know. That is what we know here now. So a Quarian will be seeing their Geth unit as a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning. See the difference? This is the way it was at the beginning of the Morning War.

When your equipment starts questioning your commands, you've got big problems.

And that's EXACTALLY what the quarians did - they DIDN'T resort to viloence at first. At first, they ignored the "problem" as a glitch, tried fixing the geth, THEN tried wholesale reprogramming. And when ALL OTHER OPTIONS were seemingly blocked, that's when they said "f*ck it" and put their FAMILIES at first priority over the walking death machines with the unknown and potentally dangerous agenda. IDK why @remydat keeps trying to paint the quarians as these unreasonable, militiristic, dictator-based trigger-happy racists. They aren't the krogan.
I mean, do you know ANYONE that is going to potentally risk their families for, what everyone eles believed was, mindless malefunctioning and possibly volitile equipment? No one KNEW the geth had actual sentiant ideals and goals. They may have jumped the gun, but it's at least based on a reasonable belief that war machines are going to wage war if they have the choice.
IDK why people are trying to paint the quarians as "more guilty" then the geth, when the two are at the SAME level of fault. You want to say the quarian's jumped the gun? Fine, but please DON'T forget that the geth didn't even do ANYTHING to prevent all the bitter hate everyone had against them from festering. Quarian Desperation is counterbalanced by Geth Apathy.

[remydat]

Silver,

Well since you like calling my name, I will respond. The game proves they risked their families lives by trying to kill the Geth because their families died by the billions.

The simple option they could have taken is to talk to the Geth and figure out what the Geth wanted.  Instead by your logic they decided to provoke the War Machines and then were surprised when the War Machines killed them and their families.  

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 02:09 .

[Megaton_Hope]

The real threat to the Quarians clearly wasn't the Geth, anyway, it was the penalties from the Council for experimenting with AI.

[remydat]

Nah, the real threat to the Quarians are themselves. They have a penchant for making assumptions that end up with a lot of dead Quarians.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

So you basically just said the same thing I said but somehow think you are disagreeing with me. Self perservation can be achieved via self defense or via murder. Do you agree or disagree?

The Geth are software. Their memories are just data. If you take all the data that represents a Geth and archive it, what do you think you are doing Silver?

No I am saying if my automated servant become sentient I would talk to it to see what it intends to do. Why? One because I am not an a**hole that just kills things I don't understand and two If it has made no attempt or given any indication that it wants to kill my family then I put my family at greater risk by being an a**hole and provoking it. On an extremely arrogant idiot f**ks with something that like you said could kill you with one hand when it hasn't done anything to warrant f**king with it.

AGAIN, you try and twist words. You JUST DON'T GET IT.
I said that self-defense stemms from self-preservation, BUT that this was NOT what the geth did at ALL. They did NOT act in self-defense, OR even self-preservation as the war went on, as that requires that you NOT throw any punches. The geth slaughtered them. It was NO LONGER self-defense when the geth became the agressors. Self-preservation is a more flexible term then self-defense, Get THAT straight. Self-preservation isn't the same as self-defense, so you can STOP saying the geth acted in self-defense. And last I checked, self-preservation did NOT include premeditated mass slaughter of millions of innocent women and children, unless NO OTHER ALTERNITIVE is avalible. The geth don't even TRY to look for another way.
So, WRONG on BOTH ACCOUNTS. Not only were your definitions of self-defense and self-preservation wrong, but NITHER really apply to what the geth did in the war, since they launched devestating retalitory attacks (eliminates "Self-defense") and slaughtered millions without need (eliminates "self-preservation"). There WAS no "noble side" in the war. One side became ruled by fear of "what might be" and hit first, and the other side retaliated with complete ruthlessness. One side had overabundant fear, the other a lack of empathy.
Understand?

Making a COMPLETELY SEPERATE BEING that does NOT share the same ideals about said memories. Let me start AGAIN by repeating that the geth were NOT advanced enough to DO ANY of that at the time of the Morning War. Memories do NOT make a person - how they percieve those memories is what makes a person. Having the same memories is NOT the same as having the same perspective and interpertation of them. What do YOU think you are doing? Because transferring and saving memories is NOT the same as saving a mental viewpoint and state of mind. By saying the geth are "just data," you basically saying they do NOT have a soul, and are NOT living beings. So, what, they are only not living beings when it suits YOUR arguement? I thought you were the one that advocated that the geth were more then just machines. Having the same memories isn't the same as being the same person. I AGAIN point yoo to the Geth V.I., who had ALL Legion's memories prior to the Reaper Corpse. And yet they act NOTHING alike from the point you meet them. When you first meet Legion, he is rather friendly and willing to look at organics as equals. The Geth V.I., despite being EXACTALLY like how Legion was when you first met him, acts COMPLETELY different, seeing organics and the Reapers as nothing but tools, and that the geth are clearly better to it.
As advocated by these two, same memories does NOT equal the same being. And back in the Morning War, the geth were only just self-aware, so they would NOT have had the necessary level of processing power to back up entire personalaties. THAT'S my point - the geth DID suffer losses and are NOT eternal, immortal, or infalible, and that replicating MEMORIES isn't the same as ressurecting a person.

And if it NEVER DOES? You are AGAIN benignly antromorphising the geth - a racist view.
The geth don't share your ideals. They don't have your physilogical make-up, your phylosophical outlock, or even your same origin as an evolved being. The geth see everything as a group, have bodies that can crush yours with a fleeting thought, and  have no individual opinion about religion, and were created on this world to be tools of labor and war. Treating them like they are just like you is, according to LEGION HIMSELF - the Nth degree of racisim. Life being equal and life being the same is NOT how it works. All living beings have rights, but ALL are different in how they are created, evolve, and in how their cultural outlooks emerge. Treating the geth as though they are the same exact form of life as you when they clearly are NOT is benign antromprohism - something the geth themselves would disavow you for. And AGAIN, with the ideal that the geth were BUILT to be combat platforms, the chance that they would NOt viloently rebel was 10 - 1. Most quarians thought that the geth were just too much of a wild card to risk their entire race, and subsiquent families and innocints on. And if the geth don't rebel and kill them, then the Council will come in and make their lives a living hell. What exactally do you THINK they could have done instead? Because if it wasn't them, then the Council would have come in and provoked the geth not knowing what would happen, and it would have all happened ANYWAY. You aren't preventing anything that WASN'T ALREADY GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWAY. How long is it going to before you realize that?
And AGAIN, that means that you are LESS of an "a**hole" for gambling with your brother's life like it's a couple bucks?  It doesn't strike you as werd to think "let's play russian roullett! It's only my brother's LIFE on the line! No big deal!"
I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe you would take that little stock in his well being, or that of your family. Sorry to break this to you, but with YOUR inflexible "everything is black and white" viewpoint, You are going to be an a**hole No matter WHAT choice you pick. You either kill the potentally vilotile gun and take it's life, like an a**hole, or you gamble with your brother and entire family's life, like it's a buck on a coin-toss, like an a**hole.
SORRY, but EITHER WAY, you are an "a**hole." EITHER WAY.
You are basically comitting a sin either way, by risking your entire family, or killing an as-of-now innocent gun. It isn't a QUESTION of morals - it's a question of which crime is the one you can live with: Killing a potental killing machine, or gambling your brother, and entire family, on a literal coin-toss. EITHER WAY, you are most likely going to lose.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Well since you like calling my name, I will respond. The game proves they risked their families lives by trying to kill the Geth because their families died by the billions.

The simple option they could have taken is to talk to the Geth and figure out what the Geth wanted.  Instead by your logic they decided to provoke the War Machines and then were surprised when the War Machines killed them and their families.  

And letting the total wild-card of the potentally viloent and unstable killing machines left alone DIDN'T risk their families? LOL, once again, you fail utterly to think anything through. It's STILL a coin-toss - it's STILL going to be something you don't want to do. It's all just a question of who you want to risk more? The potentally dangerous tools, or your families. This ISN'T a hurdle that anyone that GAVE A DAMN about their families couldn't cross.


The geth aren't SUPPOSED to even BE talking. The quarians didn't even KNOW the geth were developed to the point that they could independantly think like that. They didn't believe it was POSSIBLE that the geth could develop to the point that they would have ANYTHING like "wants" or "desires." After all, what can the quarians give that the geth can't do themselves? The geth were wild-cards. You want to try and blame someone for NOT gambling their entire family on a coin-toss. If YOU are that callous about your families lives, fine, but DON'T expect others to be. Some people actually CARE about their families, more then some code of conduct.
And AGAIN, dead wrong. They were surprised when the war machines acted WITHOUT their orders and retaliated FAR TOO EARLY. The geth never showed the quarians that they were intelligent enough to even understand the concept of fighting back on their own personal thoughts. They thought their guns weren't ABLE to move around on their own will yet. They asked questions of thei existance, but DIDN'T seem advanced enough to harm them yet, so they resolved to stop them before they ever could be that big of a theat. They didn't know the geth were already AT that threshold.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Nah, the real threat to the Quarians are themselves. They have a penchant for making assumptions that end up with a lot of dead Quarians.

You mean, if someone pointed a gun at you, you would assume that it CAN'T shoot you dead? You'd assume that it shot bubbles, or soda? THAT would be more logical instead of thinking a gun is going to REACT like a gun and shoot you dead?
Sorry, but @Megaton_Hope is completely right - the COUNCIL is where this all stemmed from.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 mai 2013 - 02:29 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Silver, it's like talking to a wall. Just help the Quarians win their war, or better yet, metagame, make peace, and pick destroy.

[remydat]

Silver,

That is the original post I made Silver. It says nothing about self defense. You are running on about sh*t no one said. If you try and kill me and I murder you, your family, and your dog, I did so because you are a threat to me and I wanted to perserve myself. That doesn't mean my killing your family and your dog was right but they died because you decided to be a threat to me.

remydat wrote...

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive. Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here. We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced. Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself. Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction. It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself. The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied. So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

[remydat]

Silver,

There is risk no matter what Silver.  Provoking an allegedly potentially violent and unstable killing machine is probably going to end up with people getting killed.  Talking to them may in fact reveal that they are not as potentially violent and unstable as you think.  You are putting your family at risk either way Silver and it is just a matter of what you think is the greater risk.  Talking to them or trying to kill them.  

I don't have to speculate on what might have happened because the only thing we know for a fact is trying to kill them was most certainly risky because billions of families died as a result.  Anything else is you guys trying to justify that stupidity that led to billions of dead Quarians.

[Cyrax86]

why does everyone keep bringing up WW2?

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Silver, it's like talking to a wall. Just help the Quarians win their war, or better yet, metagame, make peace, and pick destroy.

Let me put it to you like this.  If the game showed me that talking to the Geth resulted in billions of Quarians dying, I would have the common sense to say to myself well maybe they should have attacked them first.  I am not so dogmatic in my belief that talking would work that I would ignore the fact that the game showed me that talking led to billions dying.  Shotgun, BILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED using your option.  BILLIONS.  How many more have to die before you ponder if there was a better way?  

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results - Albert Einstein

Your way failed Shotgun.  It failed miserably.  So yes, I will propose and support a different method.  That doesn't make me a wall.  It makes me a pragmatic human being that isn't going to support the same thing over and over again just because the Quarians are cute fleshy organics.  So who is the wall really?

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 03:06 .

[Wayning_Star]

It would seem these discussion only reflects the warning the catalyst gave Shepard about the chaos of build and destroy. The idea that building machines capable of actually competing with organic builders has it's obvious risks. Might be why the citadel council unwittingly made some edict of no artificial intelligence.

This often led me to believe that the Levi were the ones who might of manipulated this, as they were apparently one of the first ones to find this out the hard way? The intelligence recorded events of synthetic life and organic thralls duking it out, but the organics lost to synthetics. So it decided to stop this version of chaos with harvest, starting with Leviathan. But it's also probably that the Leviathan permitted their harvest to fallow the 'catalyst' prime directive. Talking to Shepard under the water, the talky Levi there submitted their version of events, that the catalyst simply snuck up on them, with thralls and overtook them suddenly and without warning or consideration.

This idea was wrought to limit the destruction of organic species qualified to construct Leviathan technology to the point of sapience. Once attained, they no longer fit the mold of convenience/ servitude/thralldom. The Quarian instance with the Geth foreshadow this subjection. imho

Folks who seem to insist on the destroy choice, seem to choose just like the Quarians and Leviathan. Build stuff you cannot control, end up attempting to rid yourself of the responsibility by chucking your creations under the bus, so to speak. Over time, a person might consider the destruction and death toll of billions of years of the same ol same old?

just say'n

[Khelish]

Who here picks peace on Rannoch? Save both of them? I do.

[remydat]

Well that is the fundamental problem. People basically support the Catalyst's conclusions about the chaos but are upset because his solution required their harvesting. The irony of course is that they are perfectly willing to accept the extinction of synthetics but then want to get mad when it is their time to become extinct. It is a completely self centered view.  We can't see past our own existence and and our own feelings of importance and uniqueness.

If my creator behaved to me like how the Quarians behaved to the Geth, I would be disgusted by him/her God or no God.  Doesn't matter how superior it deems its existence to be nor if it merely created me to be a tool or to worship it.

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 03:31 .

[Dunabar]

Khelish wrote...

Who here picks peace on Rannoch? Save both of them? I do.

My main Shepard? No. Quarians only
My pure Paragon Shepard? Yes.

[Wayning_Star]

I could never muster a pure paragon shep, but even attempt a full renegade shep... always ends up a paragade shep.. The game mechanics and story line always assumes direct control..lol

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

Well that is the fundamental problem. People basically support the Catalyst's conclusions about the chaos but are upset because his solution required their harvesting. The irony of course is that they are perfectly willing to accept the extinction of synthetics but then want to get mad when it is their time to become extinct. It is a completely self centered view.  We can't see past our own existence and and our own feelings of importance and uniqueness.

If my creator behaved to me like how the Quarians behaved to the Geth, I would be disgusted by him/her God or no God.  Doesn't matter how superior it deems its existence to be nor if it merely created me to be a tool or to worship it.

actually I think the idea of the cats concept of chaos is simply lost on players. It's obviously thinly veiled as organics vs synthetics. But in reality it's always been organics vs organics.. the synthetic snafu is a byproduct of that strife.

We can really see it come to life when Shep is forced to view everything as a build and/or destroy synopsis...

[remydat]

Well sure, synthetics are merely a stand in for any group that has been persecuted for being what it is. Fundamentally, prejudice at its core is basically I don't understand you and because I don't I instinctively fear you and deem you to be threat that must be dealt with. They are to the MEU what mutants are to the Marvel Universe.

[Auld Wulf]

remydat wrote...

Well sure, synthetics are merely a stand in for any group that has been persecuted for being what it is. Fundamentally, prejudice at its core is basically I don't understand you and because I don't I instinctively fear you and deem you to be threat that must be dealt with. They are to the MEU what mutants are to the Marvel Universe.

Now that is a good analogy. It makes me wonder if some of the Geth haters also blame the X-Men for what Magneto did, and whether they believe that the X-Men deserve to die because of the atrocities Magneto has committed.

[Khelish]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Blah blah blah blah alflbljljaslf;hajds;onasoinoianweoinasoing;ainsofdlignaslifnkn

Yes, of course.

[Wayning_Star]

Auld Wulf wrote...

remydat wrote...

Well sure, synthetics are merely a stand in for any group that has been persecuted for being what it is. Fundamentally, prejudice at its core is basically I don't understand you and because I don't I instinctively fear you and deem you to be threat that must be dealt with. They are to the MEU what mutants are to the Marvel Universe.

Now that is a good analogy. It makes me wonder if some of the Geth haters also blame the X-Men for what Magneto did, and whether they believe that the X-Men deserve to die because of the atrocities Magneto has committed.

I look at it more like when Galactus made an earth appearance with the silver surfer, but reed Richards of the fantastic four upends the galactus with an alien weapon of unequaled power, even galactic galaxy planet eater galactus was confused how and why Richards, a puny human, could/would unholster such a device, no knowing what it could do to the known universe and beyond.. so he backed off the earth..for now.

the Watcher gave Reed the gizmo, first time he ever interferes with human history, ever.. or Galactus for that matter..