889 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The problem with synthetics, and mutants, is that there are legitimate reasons to fear or even hate them. No ethnic group or other minority in our history has had this problem - blacks/aboriginals/etc. are still just humans, gays are still just humans, jews are still just humans. How many mutants in the X-verse have powers that are not only extremely dangerous but beyond their control? And the Catalyst, the Heretics, even the Zha'til drew conclusions giving us more than enough reason to be wary of synthetics.

I like to think I'm an idealist (hence the name.) And I chose peace on Rannoch too, not just for the war assets but for the limitless possibilities such an alliance could afford us. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to acknowledge the merits of the other side, and do what I can to limit Geth access to our infrastructure and lifeblood until I can be sure of them. Or at least until we're on even footing, which I see no way to achieve outside of Synthesis anyway.

I disagree.  The Quarian solution to NK and Iran would be to kill them all before they acquire nuclear weapons.  Let's not even talk to them or negotiate just kill them with extreme prejudice.  Throughout human history people have feared other groups on the basis that beause they are not us, it must mean that ultimately they will became a threat to us.  For example what happens if those Native American or African savages get weapons like ours?  Well let's kill or enslave them before they can.  And there is a difference between excercising caution vs proceeding to kill without any evidence an attack was emminent.

So there are plenty of analogies between mutants, synthetics, and humans ethnic groups.  Anytime one group in power and they are using that power to deny someone of their rights, part of the reason they are doing so is because they imagine if they let the oppressed group have access to the same power it has that oppressed group will use that power to oppose them.


I think people are confused by the analogy.  It is not a requirement that the ethnic group have access to advanced tech.  All that is required is that the would be oppressor imagines the ethnic group would be a threat if it had access to said tech.

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 05:43 .

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

That's stupid. No ethnic group has access to weapons more or less than others.

Umm, Eurpeans had access to fire sticks and because they had access to them first basically killed and/or enlsaved every other ethnic group they could and controlled access to said fire sticks.  The US has access to nuclear weapons and ever since they built them have been trying to ensure only the people they trust get access to them via the UN.

Human history is bascially a race to see who could develop the best ways to kill others first and whoever did so first or was able to mass produce them better used that technological advantage to prevent others from doing the same because ultimately those others were not like them and so could not be trusted not to use those weapons to attack them.

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 05:45 .

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...


I disagree.  The Quarian solution to NK and Iran would be to kill them all before they acquire nuclear weapons.

No - NK and Iran are not populated with synthetics. Until you understand that there are in fact fundamental differences between the two camps your analogies will not work.

remydat wrote...

I think people are confused by the analogy.  It is not a requirement that the ethnic group have access to advanced tech.

Not "have access to." In a conflict where one side has "access to" advanced tech, that advantage only lasts as long as the other side does not acquire it. In the First Contact War, the Turians started out ahead of us technologically, but we adapted faster than they imagined and closed the gap quickly.

No, this is like a conflict where the other side is made of advanced technology. Advantages we cannot hope to duplicate on our own, not without getting some of their own to turn to our side. You can't police mutants without the X-Men or X-Factor, and you can't deal with synthetics without synthetics of your own. It's as simple as that.

[remydat]

Optimystic_X

I don't even understand the point you are making.  The US has nuclear weapons but fears NK and Iran getting them because NK and Iran are their enemies.  They don't oppose nuclear weapons.  They oppose nuclear weapons in the hands of grups they can't control.  The Quarians don't fear machines or guns.  They fear machines and guns in the hands of groups they can't control namely a sentient synthetic species.

And you second paragraph proves my point.  When someone acquired advanced tech, they sought to control that advanced tech and prevent other groups from acquiring it.  The issue with synthetics or mutants is not their weapons or powers.  It is that their weapons and powers are not in the hands of the people that want to control others ie the governments of the MU.  When mutants sumbit to government control there is no problem.  When the Geth submitted to Quarians control there was no problem.  When ethnic groups submit to government control there is no problem.

The Avengers have mutants like Wolverine, Wanda, Rogue, Havok, etc..  Again, the issue is control and power.  Mutants, Synthetics, and other ethnic groups other than are own are not feared solely because of the power and tech they have.  They are feared because we consider them different and less controllable.  As long as they submit to our control, we allow them to exist.

As an aside, Stan Lee has admitted on several occassions his idea of mutants stemmed from his observances on various oppressed groups.  They were created at the height of the civil rights movement and after Ghandi's movement in India and the two main leaders bear hallmarks of the debate at the time of how to achieve equality with Prof X advocating peaceful co-existance ala MLK and Ghandi and Mags advocating by any means necessary ala Malcom X or the Black Panthers.  Pretending they are not suppose to be analogies to humanity's history of oppressing groups different from their own is to ignore what their creators said and to ignore the circumstances they were created it.

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 06:35 .

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...


I don't even understand the point you are making.

One more time.

North Korea and Iran are not useful analogues for synthetics and mutants.

The capabilities of a korean or arab are far behind these. It has nothing to do with tools that are common to multiple nations.

[remydat]

It does because the analogy I was making had nothing to do with whether one group had more advanced tech than the other.  You are free of course to invent your own analogy but you can't take the analogy I made and then pretend I was comparing things I was not.  Here it is below.  Nothing in the below suggests that my analogy is concerned with whether synthetics have more advanced tech.  The analogy is to fearing something you don't quite understand and deeming them a threat because you don't understand them. 

Well sure, synthetics are merely a stand in for any group that has been persecuted for being what it is. Fundamentally, prejudice at its core is basically I don't understand you and because I don't I instinctively fear you and deem you to be threat that must be dealt with. They are to the MEU what mutants are to the Marvel Universe.

The Geth had the ability to kill the Quarians from the moment they were created because the Quarians made them with such a capability.  They did not have a problem with the fact the Geth could kill.  They had a problem with the fact that the Geth becoming sentient meant they could no longer control them and hence could not control who they killed.  So again, the ability to kill is not what drove the fear.  The fact they felt they could no longer control the Geth is what did.  This is fundamental to organic conflicts as well.  We don't fear other groups because they can kill.  We fear them when we feel we can't trust/control them and thus think they will EXERCISE that ability.  That is the analogy. 

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 07:44 .

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...

Codex says that biotics aren't really dangerous without amplifiers. You can remove them and they are practically disarmed (like in the Citadel security checkpoint).

The same biotic amps that are put inside the biotic's body? The same amps that are connected to the biotic's brain and nervous system? You think it's that easy to just randomly remove amps from a biotic you want to "disarm"?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

That is the original post I made Silver. It says nothing about self defense. You are running on about sh*t no one said. If you try and kill me and I murder you, your family, and your dog, I did so because you are a threat to me and I wanted to perserve myself. That doesn't mean my killing your family and your dog was right but they died because you decided to be a threat to me.

remydat wrote...

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive. Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here. We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced. Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself. Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction. It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself. The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied. So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

Let me CORRECT you. AGAIN.

Self-defense does NOT justify assaulting the rest of the family. That is aggrivated assult, which is NOT the same as acting in "self-preservation," and is perpetuation of conflict.
In other words, you are saying it's FINE to hunt down and kill all the members of your agressors family? Even when they had NOTHING TO DO with his attack? Just when I thought your morals couldn't get any more inverted.
I also not that you AREN'T trying to tote "self-defense" as the geth's motivation, and are simply trying to push the ideal that if someone attacks you, then you are just in mowing down EVERY INNOCENT BEING in sight? That's complete bull.
And ONCE AGAIN, you blatently IGNORE the fact that, as a geth, you ARE a walking weapon, and are a danger to them with your VERY PRESANCE. It doesn't make it right to kill you, but they do because you have become a threat to them. ONCE AGAIN, the geth and quarians are IN THE SAME BOAT. They became a threat to each-other. You ENTIRE premise is based soley on who threw the first stone. Reasoning or ideals of protecting family seem to have NO BEARING on you. If someone throws the first stone, they are instantly the evil ones. Again, I am compelled to remind you that the world is NOT that black and white. You can't just kill a woman and her kids simply because her ex-husband attacked you. Not in our world, and not in the quarians', and according to Legion, not even in the geth's world. That's persicution.
To say that you WOULD kill them all - every single innocent - just because ONE was a threat is sociopathic. You can really condone cold-blooded murder? "Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind," pal. I can understand not condoning the quarian's brash actions, but I can at the very least understand the duress they were under. Saying that the geth's massicare was justified is amoral in just about all regards. Their initial self-defense against forced deactivation, I support, but NOT butchering millions of innocents.

And ONCE AGAIN, you benignly anthomporphize the geth, because ONCE AGAIN, the geth did NOT evoleve the same as organic life, so you CAN'T jusge them by our laws of nature since they evolved OUTSIDE that field.  The geth are NOT multi-celled, carbon-based life. They are completely based on mental capabilaty. They evolved from artifical creations made by organics. They did NOT "evolve" from nothing, or from primordial soup, like organics did. They evolved from technological equipment that adapted until it reached it's processing levels reached a critical mass.
And the geth DON'T have a reproduction system like organics. They simply code new platforms - ALL of which can become different individuals. They DON'T "reproduce" the same way organics do.
Also, the geth do NOT work that way. ONCE AGAIN, I remind you that the geth do NOT make "perfect" replicatoions of themselves, nor do so as quickly as you try to advocate. If what you said was true, then no geth would have died when the quarians attacked the megastructure. The fact that several thousand programs DID die is physical proof that your assertion is wrong, since, if you had been right, the geth would have easily "replicated" quickly enough to replace their lost numbers, and would never have had to go to the Reapers in the first place.
And the proof that NO two geth are the same is in Legion and the Geth V.I. Both have the same memories prior to the Dead Reaper. Yet when you first meet him, Legion is rather cooperative and willing to help organics. The Geth V.I., when you first meet him, DESPITE being a supposed carbon-copy of the Legion you first met on the Reaper, acts colder, more callous, and keeps it clear that their alliance is only for the sake of geth, and no one else. NO GETH is EVER a copy or replica. ALL are individually different, because all have different interpertations, ideals, and perspectives on their accumlitated memories.

And ONCE AGAIN, self-preservation doesn't justify what the geth did to the quarians in the Morning War. Please, STOP trying to advocate that "two wrongs always make a right," because that's hardly the case. And ONCE AGAIN, the geth DIDN'T have any major form of self-preservation, since back then, they threw platforms and programs against the quarians like meat shields. Same war tactics as the krogan. A "fate of the whole" mentality, maybe, but NOT a personal self-preservation capabilaty.

I just don't understand how it can be so hard for you to wrap your head around the simple fact that the geth are NOT the same form of life as us, so you CAN'T use biological standards on them. Legion himself says this is a racist view.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 08:04 .

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Codex says that biotics aren't really dangerous without amplifiers. You can remove them and they are practically disarmed (like in the Citadel security checkpoint).

The same biotic amps that are put inside the biotic's body? The same amps that are connected to the biotic's brain and nervous system? You think it's that easy to just randomly remove amps from a biotic you want to "disarm"?

Yes. Yes it IS. The Codex says so.
If you READ the Codex, you would know that a biotic "Amp" connects to an implant at the base of the back of either the neck or skull. I repeat, there are two seperate parts.  The amp, and the implant where it connects. It spicifically states that the amp is crucial in creating biotics, as without the amp, it is impossible for the person in question to control their nervous systems with the precison control needed to create Mass Effect Fields, OR (if they are a natural biotic) be able to creat mass effect fields with enough strength to be practical for battle.
[/u][/i]In other words - No Amp, NO BIOTICS.   And all you have to do is remove the amp from the plug at the back of their neck/skull, and no more biotics.
This isn't hard-core triva. This is easily varifiable information that anyone that even GLANCED through the Codex would know.
Anyone that looked would ALSO know that there is ONLY one single race that this doesn't apply for - the asari. And even THEY use amps, because without amps, it is impossible to create mass effect fields practical for battle without decades of hardend training.

So, in short - YES. It really IS just that simple.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 mai 2013 - 07:17 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

That is the original post I made Silver. It says nothing about self defense. You are running on about sh*t no one said. If you try and kill me and I murder you, your family, and your dog, I did so because you are a threat to me and I wanted to perserve myself. That doesn't mean my killing your family and your dog was right but they died because you decided to be a threat to me.

remydat wrote...

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive. Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here. We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced. Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself. Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction. It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself. The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied. So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

Let me CORRECT you. AGAIN.

Self-defense does NOT justify assaulting the rest of the family. That is aggrivated assult, which is NOT the same as acting in "self-preservation," and is perpetuation of conflict.
In other words, you are saying it's FINE to hunt down and kill all the members of your agressors family? Even when they had NOTHING TO DO with his attack? Just when I thought your morals couldn't get any more inverted.

"No. You said he had close family. Kill the family first. Then he'll get angry and come at you stupid, and then you kill him." -- The Patriarch

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

There is risk no matter what Silver.  Provoking an allegedly potentially violent and unstable killing machine is probably going to end up with people getting killed.  Talking to them may in fact reveal that they are not as potentially violent and unstable as you think.  You are putting your family at risk either way Silver and it is just a matter of what you think is the greater risk.  Talking to them or trying to kill them.  

I don't have to speculate on what might have happened because the only thing we know for a fact is trying to kill them was most certainly risky because billions of families died as a result.  Anything else is you guys trying to justify that stupidity that led to billions of dead Quarians.

But there is LESS risk to one spicific side - your family. Siding with the walking weapon will ALWAYS be the more risky option, because if not the threat of it going off and harming your family, there is STILL the threat that the Council will come down and kill the geth ANYWAY, under the assumption that the geth will bow down and take it, sparking a war ANYWAY. NOTHING YOU DO would have mattered at ALL, and you family would STILL be either dead, or at the very least in Council custody.
So, ONCE AGAIN, it all come's down to who's life you value more - the potentally unstable war machine, or your family. And I do not want to believe you are that callous as to just throw your brother's life to the wind - I want to believe that SOME part of you is human.
And ONCE AGAIN, wrong ideal. It's getting rid of a potentally unstable weapon that could suddenly go off and kill people. It's basically the same as removing a threat to their families from the quarian's perspective. And ONCE AGAIN, it's a GUN. It isn't supposed to be talking, and HASN'T demonstrated any form of intelligence necessary to fule the belief that it HAS material wants.
The CORRECT notion is - do you really want to play "coin toss" or "russion roullette" with your family? Sorry, but I refuse to believe you could be THAT callous to your brother's life and well-being. Nobody that CARED about their family would EVER put them at risk in such a situation, no matter WHAT the gamble. It's either "get rid of the potentally unstable weapon," "Sit back and let it potentally go off and kill your family," or "wait for the Council to come in, trash everything in the SAME war that NOTHING you did prevented in the least, and let your family either die in that, or be put under martial law by the Council." THOSE are the options. I know what a person that actually CARED about their family would do in that situation.
The fact that you would casually and callously risk your entire family on a coin toss is the stupidity. I refuse to believe your family means THAT little to you, to just bet them against weather or not the armed, potentally unstable gun will or won't go off.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

That is the original post I made Silver. It says nothing about self defense. You are running on about sh*t no one said. If you try and kill me and I murder you, your family, and your dog, I did so because you are a threat to me and I wanted to perserve myself. That doesn't mean my killing your family and your dog was right but they died because you decided to be a threat to me.

remydat wrote...

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive. Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here. We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced. Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself. Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction. It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself. The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied. So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

Let me CORRECT you. AGAIN.

Self-defense does NOT justify assaulting the rest of the family. That is aggrivated assult, which is NOT the same as acting in "self-preservation," and is perpetuation of conflict.
In other words, you are saying it's FINE to hunt down and kill all the members of your agressors family? Even when they had NOTHING TO DO with his attack? Just when I thought your morals couldn't get any more inverted.

"No. You said he had close family. Kill the family first. Then he'll get angry and come at you stupid, and then you kill him." -- The Patriarch

Right. And once again, nobody with any real MORAL code would act like that. Only gansters, or people with homical or sociopathic grudges would act like that. But @remydat, @Alud Wulf and @shodiwse have made points of saying the geth DON'T hold grudges. So then what the hell justification WAS there for butchering millions of civilians and  wiping out 99% of the quarian race? F*cking oops?

Hell, even Legion admits that the geth feel they went too damn far, and that they care for the quarian's worlds as some form of repentance for taking so many lives, even if they don't regret the retaliation itself.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 mai 2013 - 07:38 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

It does because the analogy I was making had nothing to do with whether one group had more advanced tech than the other.  You are free of course to invent your own analogy but you can't take the analogy I made and then pretend I was comparing things I was not.  Here it is below.  Nothing in the below suggests that my analogy is concerned with whether synthetics have more advanced tech.  The analogy is to fearing something you don't quite understand and deeming them a threat because you don't understand them. 

Well sure, synthetics are merely a stand in for any group that has been persecuted for being what it is. Fundamentally, prejudice at its core is basically I don't understand you and because I don't I instinctively fear you and deem you to be threat that must be dealt with. They are to the MEU what mutants are to the Marvel Universe.

The Geth had the ability to kill the Quarians from the moment they were created because the Quarians made them with such a capability.  They did not have a problem with the fact the Geth could kill.  They had a problem with the fact that the Geth becoming sentient meant they could no longer control them and hence could not control who they killed.  So again, the ability to kill is not what drove the fear.  The fact they felt they could no longer control the Geth is what did.  This is fundamental to organic conflicts as well.  We don't fear other groups because they can kill.  We fear them when we feel we can't trust/control them and thus think they will EXERCISE that ability.  That is the analogy. 

@remy....
When even the HARDCORE synthetic equality advociate - the geth-supporting person here that has advocated synthetic-organic equality so adimately, a member of YOUR OWN TEAM in regard's to the geth's actions - says that your interpertation has no bearing on the situation (and it DOESN'T), what does that tell you?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 mai 2013 - 07:39 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

remydat wrote...

Well sure, synthetics are merely a stand in for any group that has been persecuted for being what it is. Fundamentally, prejudice at its core is basically I don't understand you and because I don't I instinctively fear you and deem you to be threat that must be dealt with. They are to the MEU what mutants are to the Marvel Universe.

Now that is a good analogy. It makes me wonder if some of the Geth haters also blame the X-Men for what Magneto did, and whether they believe that the X-Men deserve to die because of the atrocities Magneto has committed.

Oh, good god.

Must I remind you that judging syntetics using organic standards like that is fundementally biased? And WHO exactally said the geth were the quintiencental stand-in for a prejudeice-targeted race? The krogan are in the same boat, and people use THEM as the target for that too. Sorry to burst your bubble, but BOTH organics and synthetics have their abused equivilants. BOTH the krogan, AND the geth are in that boat.
And you know what? So to are the asari, since so many people assume they are promiciuitious and give it away to anyone and everyone the meat. And the salarians too, since many believe they are always plotting to betray someone. And the turians and humans as agressive bullies. And the batarians as xenophobes. And the hanar as religious pricks. And the drell as a hanar slave-race. And the volus as greedy slimy bankers. And the vorcha as irredimable savages. And the elcor as slow and ponderous.
Why, it seems that EVERYONE discriminates against EVERYONE at one point or another. Almost as though EVERYONE has their critics and ill-acting factions.

The entire point was fear of what the geth could potentally do to their FAMILIES. Do you CARE about
them, to so callously risk their lives on a literal coin toss on
weather or not the loaded, potentally unstable gun will or won't go off?

The reason the geth and krogan get it worse in the critisism and assumption departemnt, it that, unlike most other races, nither the krogan or geth EVER made any public action to disavow the factions that perported their current reputation.

So, NO, that is NOT a good analogy, and it is NOT the same as the X-Men, for one simple fact that both of you ignored: UNLIKE the geth, the X-Men did EVERYTHING they could to show others that rouge mutants were the exception rather then the rule. Last I checked, the geth weren't trying to orginize rallies or fundraisers to protest their unfair treatment, or send out any messages to disclam their rouge factions actions, OR orginize any form of meeting, confrence, or summit to formally anounce their situation and/or standing to the rest of the galaxy.  Also, I'm pretty sure the Xaviar Institute didn't kill everyone that knocked on the front door. Unlike the geth.
And before you try anything @Alud, I remind you that Legion was NOT sent out as ANY form of diplomat. He was ment to find Shepard, confirm reports of the Commander's death being accurate or not, and study Shepard's actions and responces if Shepard was alive. Legion was NEVER ment to make open contact with other races, otherwise he would have gone to the Citadel. NOT Eden Prime - the planet that JUST got attacked by geth, making it NOT the best place for a geth to be out of the blue. And he would NOT have spent the next two years hunting for the offically-dead Shepard's body.

So, ONCE AGAIN, the two of you ignore simple facts - the fact that the geth NEVER disavowed the Heretics actions, NEVER tried to fix their reputation as monsters, and NEVER let anyone that tried peacefull contact leave alive.
You know, everything the X-Men DIDN'T do?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 08:07 .

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

That invokes one very simple question.

Why aren't you afraid of "just humans"?

Because "just humans" are no different then us. You can look at the avarage human, regardless of color, creed, religion, or class and know that they aren't capable of punching your heart out with their bare hands. X-Men mutants on the other hands have wide veriatys of potentally dangerous powers. Storm can mimipulate the elements. Cyclops can shoot lasers from his eyes. Wolverene has metal bones, metal claws, and is practally immortal. Jene Gray has telepathic powers that (as we see in the "Pheniox" and "Dark Pheniox" arc) can be incredibly destructive. Rouge's absorbtion powers can suck the life-force out of people if she isn't careful.

The geth are like that - pretty much completely alien. We don't know all that much about them, besides the fact that they have dangerous capabilities, and that they can potentally go berserk and tear through hundreds, if not thousands if they get out of hand. If you want to protect your family, fear of things like that isn't really that unreasonable. Granted, it CAN get out of hand if you let the fear do ALL the thinking, like the quarians did with the geth, and like Senator Kelly did with the mutants. But the fear itself is at the very least  a justifiable responce, as is the reasons you were afraid to begin with.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 mai 2013 - 08:06 .

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

Well, nobody who isn't Tali Zorah vas "Oh look a Geth! Press button, hackzors! LOL it's shooting its friends".

You saw the disruption drones the CAT-6 mercs had? And Brooks is Cerberus - an agent like Miranda, so between an army of Mercs with military-grade equipment, a Cerberus-trained infiltrator, and the Commander's access codes, Plus the ruse that Shepard is here tricking the crewmembers, like Traynor. Add all that into the mix, plus the many ripped-open pannels we see on the CIC where they were working on cabling, and it's pretty obvious why they took the ship so damn qucik.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 13 mai 2013 - 08:12 .

[Lady Abstract]

Looks like we will never know alls i know is that Legion said they wouldve gladly continued working for/with the Quarians had they presented it to them. Also if you choose peace between them the Geth helps re build the Quarian immune system and their world. So even after being attacked more than twice by their creators they still decide to labor for them. I think they just wanted answers just like the first humans did about their own existence

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

That is the original post I made Silver. It says nothing about self defense. You are running on about sh*t no one said. If you try and kill me and I murder you, your family, and your dog, I did so because you are a threat to me and I wanted to perserve myself. That doesn't mean my killing your family and your dog was right but they died because you decided to be a threat to me.

remydat wrote...

Every living thing in existence appears to have an instinct to survive. Even bacteria have the instinct to surive otherwise we would not be here. We evolved from single celled organisms that reproduced. Reproduction is entirely the process by which a species perserves itself. Collectively life on this planet could not exist if organisms did not try and replicate themselves via reproduction. It is no different than the Geth wanting to make back-up copies of itself. The only difference is since they are machines, their process of copying or replicating themselves is near perfect and essentially results in them creating a perfect clone retaining all the memories and experiences of the entity being copied. So there is no difference except the illusion created by the fact that organics are simply terrible at copying or backing up themselves because reproduction is not a perfect process and because sexual reproduction requires 2 entities to make a backup or copy.

Also, we know the Quarians had no intent to create synthetic life but somehow they did. We know the Geth have a self perservation instinct because we can observe it. Whether it was part of their orginal programming or not is irrelevant. An AI unintentionally becoming self aware proves it can exceed or improve on its original programming and if it can do that it can also do something outside its original core program such as develop an instinct for self perservation.

Let me CORRECT you. AGAIN.

Self-defense does NOT justify assaulting the rest of the family. That is aggrivated assult, which is NOT the same as acting in "self-preservation," and is perpetuation of conflict.
In other words, you are saying it's FINE to hunt down and kill all the members of your agressors family? Even when they had NOTHING TO DO with his attack? Just when I thought your morals couldn't get any more inverted.

"No. You said he had close family. Kill the family first. Then he'll get angry and come at you stupid, and then you kill him." -- The Patriarch

Right. And once again, nobody with any real MORAL code would act like that. Only gansters, or people with homical or sociopathic grudges would act like that. But @remydat, @Alud Wulf and @shodiwse have made points of saying the geth DON'T hold grudges. So then what the hell justification WAS there for butchering millions of civilians and  wiping out 99% of the quarian race? F*cking oops?

Hell, even Legion admits that the geth feel they went too damn far, and that they care for the quarian's worlds as some form of repentance for taking so many lives, even if they don't regret the retaliation itself.

Of course you know why I posted that.

No amount of repentance can justify butchering 99% of a living population if one is to consider the ones doing the butchering to be indeed living organisms. Admitting they went too far does not bring back the 99% killed. Cleaning up the world doesn't bring back the 99%. Cutting off peace talks doesn't help instill confidence. It sows fear and doubts. It perpetuates plan B - preparation for war.

The more I'm reading in this thread, the more convinced I'm becoming that the Geth are merely intelligent machines. Equipment. Not "children the Quarians created" like that suit-wetter Koris said. They are not alive.

The only fault I'm seeing was that the Quarians didn't act quick enough when the Geth began to malfunction and form a global network.

[Cyrax86]

Some Quarians try to de-activate the, Some Quarians defend the Geth, Geth decide to kill every Quarian (and a few from other races/species).


Ambassador(Council)ships are sent to Rannoch post MW, Geth shoot down all ships entering their area of space.


H.Geth decided to worship Reapers, knowing full well the Reapers intended to attack organics , the rest of the Geth basically say "Ok go, we understand"


H.Geth attack a Human colony, then eventually attack the Citadel and Council, All Geth are labeled as a enemies of the Council.



:S Geth are persecuted, seems legit :S


Quarians are persecuting the Geth because their different, or because the Geth killed billions of Quarians and took over the homeworld the Quarians need to survive.

[InvincibleHero]

Remydat one quick question. Why do you place all the onus of communicating peace on the quarians when they had little idea of the capabilities of the geth? The geth could have made the first move in proving that geth posed no threat.

In fact, geth proved a most dire threat to the quarians in almost to extinction. Geth chose to act in annihilating their enemy to ensure its preservation. No remorse no empathy and no feeling and no mercy. Geth could have left Rannoch at any time if peace and being left alone was truly the aim. Actions speak louder than words.

When have the geth proven trustworthy when their own survival is not threatened? They joined reapers to survive a little longer knowing they would be either slaves or scrapped once the cycle was finished. Geth have never made an action that was not based on their own interests. if they helped fight Sovvy in ME then they would have earned some trust. No geth stayed out because they would not risk their own units to fight heretic geth to help organics. They were not directly threatened hence could care less what happened to them.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 13 mai 2013 - 11:09 .

[Ahms]

It was justified.

[Morlath]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Of course you know why I posted that.

No amount of repentance can justify butchering 99% of a living population if one is to consider the ones doing the butchering to be indeed living organisms. Admitting they went too far does not bring back the 99% killed. Cleaning up the world doesn't bring back the 99%. Cutting off peace talks doesn't help instill confidence. It sows fear and doubts. It perpetuates plan B - preparation for war.

The more I'm reading in this thread, the more convinced I'm becoming that the Geth are merely intelligent machines. Equipment. Not "children the Quarians created" like that suit-wetter Koris said. They are not alive.

The only fault I'm seeing was that the Quarians didn't act quick enough when the Geth began to malfunction and form a global network.

You know what's brilliant about this thread?

The circular logic used by the anti-Geth side is in almost every post.

"Of course the start of the Morning War was justified! Did you see how it ended?"


And as for this Shotgun, does the bolded stand for all life or just synthetic? Does it only count for 99% of a population killed or 98%? What about 95%?

 If a species only kills 17% of a population are they allowed to seek repentance?
If a species uses astroids to destroy a planet's population, are they allowed repentance/a chance for the past to be forgiven but not if they use chemical WMDs?

[Argolas]

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Codex says that biotics aren't really dangerous without amplifiers. You can remove them and they are practically disarmed (like in the Citadel security checkpoint).

The same biotic amps that are put inside the biotic's body? The same amps that are connected to the biotic's brain and nervous system? You think it's that easy to just randomly remove amps from a biotic you want to "disarm"?

No, that's not it. There are biotic implants and biotic amplifiers, those are 2 different things. What you are talking about are the implants, of course you can't remove those that easily, but the amplifiers can easily be plugged in and out just like in the inventory menu back in ME1.

[Morlath]

Argolas wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Codex says that biotics aren't really dangerous without amplifiers. You can remove them and they are practically disarmed (like in the Citadel security checkpoint).

The same biotic amps that are put inside the biotic's body? The same amps that are connected to the biotic's brain and nervous system? You think it's that easy to just randomly remove amps from a biotic you want to "disarm"?

No, that's not it. There are biotic implants and biotic amplifiers, those are 2 different things. What you are talking about are the implants, of course you can't remove those that easily, but the amplifiers can easily be plugged in and out just like in the inventory menu back in ME1.

That was my fault. I'd read about the difference between the two ages ago and it didn't stick in the memory.

Although it still wouldn't be as simple as "excuse me, we want to disarm you so can you give us your amps?".

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Codex says that biotics aren't really dangerous without amplifiers. You can remove them and they are practically disarmed (like in the Citadel security checkpoint).

The same biotic amps that are put inside the biotic's body? The same amps that are connected to the biotic's brain and nervous system? You think it's that easy to just randomly remove amps from a biotic you want to "disarm"?

No, that's not it. There are biotic implants and biotic amplifiers, those are 2 different things. What you are talking about are the implants, of course you can't remove those that easily, but the amplifiers can easily be plugged in and out just like in the inventory menu back in ME1.

That was my fault. I'd read about the difference between the two ages ago and it didn't stick in the memory.

Although it still wouldn't be as simple as "excuse me, we want to disarm you so can you give us your amps?".

Um....Isn't that exactally what they do at the Citadel checkpoint in ME2?