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[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Of course you know why I posted that.

No amount of repentance can justify butchering 99% of a living population if one is to consider the ones doing the butchering to be indeed living organisms. Admitting they went too far does not bring back the 99% killed. Cleaning up the world doesn't bring back the 99%. Cutting off peace talks doesn't help instill confidence. It sows fear and doubts. It perpetuates plan B - preparation for war.

The more I'm reading in this thread, the more convinced I'm becoming that the Geth are merely intelligent machines. Equipment. Not "children the Quarians created" like that suit-wetter Koris said. They are not alive.

The only fault I'm seeing was that the Quarians didn't act quick enough when the Geth began to malfunction and form a global network.

You know what's brilliant about this thread?

The circular logic used by the anti-Geth side is in almost every post.

"Of course the start of the Morning War was justified! Did you see how it ended?"


And as for this Shotgun, does the bolded stand for all life or just synthetic? Does it only count for 99% of a population killed or 98%? What about 95%?

 If a species only kills 17% of a population are they allowed to seek repentance?
If a species uses astroids to destroy a planet's population, are they allowed repentance/a chance for the past to be forgiven but not if they use chemical WMDs?

The geth were created to all kill at a moments notice, same as how the drell were trained by the hanar for the same. When their private army broke free from their regins, what assurance was there they would return to their old life of servatude and slavery? Do you know any living beings that want such a life?

And what the hell are you talking about? Last I checked, every time there's been a massive death toll, in the Morning War, at the Citadel, on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria - it's always been at the hands of the geth. Practally every major conflict since the Krogan Rebellions has been due to the geth, or other synthetics, like the Reapers.
Also, yes, the same standard is applicable for a synthetic, but in case you haven't noticed, said situation hasn't happened. Not out of the blue. The Rannoch War was half the geth's fault because of how little they did in fixing the already bad rep synthetics had. They weren't slaughtered for no reason - they were attacked because the quarians wanted their home back, and because the geth were believed to be irridemably hostile mass murderers, and did jack-squat to change that viewpoint people had of them.
Here's a tip - you want to be treated fairly, don't kill everyone that knockes on the door, and let people know those other synthetics lighting up the Attican Traverse aren't affliated with you, and perhaps try to spread the word that all you want is peace and quiet.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mai 2013 - 07:58 .

[PsyrenY]

Morlath wrote...

Although it still wouldn't be as simple as "excuse me, we want to disarm you so can you give us your amps?".

"You humans are all racist!"

The Citadel checkpoint in ME2 with the angry turian confiscates biotic amps from most people before they can enter, so evidently removing them is easy. (Shepard of course gets a pass due to being a Spectre/former Spectre.)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Although it still wouldn't be as simple as "excuse me, we want to disarm you so can you give us your amps?".

"You humans are all racist!"

The Citadel checkpoint in ME2 with the angry turian confiscates biotic amps from most people before they can enter, so evidently removing them is easy. (Shepard of course gets a pass due to being a Spectre/former Spectre.)

Asari don't have to check their brains, and they're natural biotics. Removing them isn't so easy. So I don't see why they have to confiscate biotic amps.

[PsyrenY]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


Asari don't have to check their brains, and they're natural biotics. Removing them isn't so easy. So I don't see why they have to confiscate biotic amps.

Asari use amps too. For instance, in ME1 Liara equips them, and then there are the biotic amps in Grissom that the Asari in the hospital is trying to obtain. Whether or not you are naturally biotic isn't the point - rather, the point is that to put out significant power with your biotics (or at the very least, do so in a longer fight) requires an amp. Even the Leviathan codex entry mentions them needing amps of some kind.

It's possible that biotics users who get angry or scared enough can power out a military-level attack without one, but doing so would likely drain them, knock them unconscious or even kill them - especially if they have to do so more than once in a short period of time.

Again, it's important to distinguish between implants and amps. Implants are surgically embedded in the individual but have an external port of some kind - these are difficult to remove. Amps are the external devices that plug into the implant, and can be freely removed, swapped and confiscated as needed.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 mai 2013 - 06:30 .

[Morlath]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Morlath wrote...

Although it still wouldn't be as simple as "excuse me, we want to disarm you so can you give us your amps?".

"You humans are all racist!"

The Citadel checkpoint in ME2 with the angry turian confiscates biotic amps from most people before they can enter, so evidently removing them is easy. (Shepard of course gets a pass due to being a Spectre/former Spectre.)

The Turian in my ME2 was complaining about his knife being taken. I've not actually seen/heard the dialogue about the amps.

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...
The geth were created to all kill at a moments notice, same as how the drell were trained by the hanar for the same. When their private army broke free from their regins, what assurance was there they would return to their old life of servatude and slavery? Do you know any living beings that want such a life?

Inaccruate. You keep throwing this interpretation of what the Geth were designed for as if it's fact when it's clearly not.

And what the hell are you talking about? Last I checked, every time there's been a massive death toll, in the Morning War, at the Citadel, on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria - it's always been at the hands of the geth.

Morning War - Started by the Quarians out of fear that the Geth wouldn't want to be their slaves (Tali, ME1)

So explain to me how it's the Geth's fault that the Morning War started without using the deathtoll of the War itself. Explain - using the information we know about the situation between Quarians and Geth up to the start of the Morning War - why it was justified.

Here's a tip - you want to be treated fairly, don't kill everyone that knockes on the door, and let people know those other synthetics lighting up the Attican Traverse aren't affliated with you, and perhaps try to spread the word that all you want is peace and quiet.

Here's a tip - Stop trying to use what organics would have wanted to happen as a way of blaming synthetics that don't think like organics.

[PsyrenY]

Morlath wrote...

The Turian in my ME2 was complaining about his knife being taken. I've not actually seen/heard the dialogue about the amps.

There are four conversations between the Turian and the TSA C-Sec Agent actually, each one culminating with the famous line "you humans are all racist!" The knife is indeed one of them, and so is the biotic amp.

Here is the full convo, courtesy of MEWiki (the biotic amp part is Part Two.)

Part One
T: I want to know when the next shuttle will get here.
H: There's one every ten minutes.
T: I don't want to wait that long.
H: I can't make the shuttles go any faster, sir.
T: You humans are all racist!

Part Two
H: I'm sorry, sir, but I'll need you to remove any biotic amp you might be wearing.
T: What? Why?!
H: Unfortunately, sir, biotics can be used as a weapon. The rules require me to confiscate all amps. Could you please hand over yours?
T: I don't have one. I'm not a biotic!
H: Oh, when you objected, I thought...
T: You humans are all racist!

Part Three
H: I'm sorry, sir, but I can't let you board a shuttle with that.
T: But this is a ceremonial item of my people!
H: Sir, it's a 15-centimeter serrated blade.
T: You humans are all racist!

Part Four
H: You'll have to wait for the next shuttle.
T: You made me miss the last one!
H: You needed to go through security.
T: Why are you treating me like a criminal?
H: Because you tried to bring a 15-centimeter serrated blade onto a public shuttle.
T: You humans are all racist!

Which brings us back to the reason for this sidetrack - biotics rely on equipment which can be interfered with or disarmed, and thus are less dangerous than mutants, whose powers are wholly independent of tech. Hardware-based synthetics are similarly capable of being limited. But synthetics like the Geth who are purely software are much harder to keep in check.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
The geth were created to all kill at a moments notice, same as how the drell were trained by the hanar for the same. When their private army broke free from their regins, what assurance was there they would return to their old life of servatude and slavery? Do you know any living beings that want such a life?

Inaccruate. You keep throwing this interpretation of what the Geth were designed for as if it's fact when it's clearly not.

And what the hell are you talking about? Last I checked, every time there's been a massive death toll, in the Morning War, at the Citadel, on Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria - it's always been at the hands of the geth.

Morning War - Started by the Quarians out of fear that the Geth wouldn't want to be their slaves (Tali, ME1)

So explain to me how it's the Geth's fault that the Morning War started without using the deathtoll of the War itself. Explain - using the information we know about the situation between Quarians and Geth up to the start of the Morning War - why it was justified.

Here's a tip - you want to be treated fairly, don't kill everyone that knockes on the door, and let people know those other synthetics lighting up the Attican Traverse aren't affliated with you, and perhaps try to spread the word that all you want is peace and quiet.

Here's a tip - Stop trying to use what organics would have wanted to happen as a way of blaming synthetics that don't think like organics.

1. LOL, what? The entire point of creating them was to have a slave force that would never tire or complain. ONCE AGAIN, you act like the geth were spicificaly created to think for themselves, when the geth themselves have stated that their sentiance was a side-effect of their self-adaptation.
Legion states this. Tali states this. The Codex states this.
So how the hell is it "Inaccurate?" I think your perception of things in general is inaccurate.

2. And when said machines have no intended moral or emotional imparative, what exatcally would they be able to reason with? Logical arguement is completely out, because the geth do not need anything from the quarians - they ae self-sufficant. The geth were walking killing machines - of course people would be afraid of that. You think people WOULDN'T be scared if their handgun started walking on it's own willpower and switched it's safties off on it's own? You think their first reaction wouldn't be to dispose of the potentally unstable walking weapons that are on every street? Assumedly no emotions or morals, meaning no logical reason why they could be reasoned with. And since they freed themselves from operator control, nothing to tie them down and prevent them from running rampant if they feel like it. And since they all can become military units at the drop of a dime.... well, do the math.
Really, it's not that hard to see why the quarians did what they did.

3. LOL, what? That's what the geth do, and have done for the past 300 years. That's FACT. You honestly are going to try and BS people by saying that killing the unarmed peace envoys, rather then just turning them away, improved the geth's rep? You are going to peddle that not differentating themselves from the Heretics was a positive thing to do, given that it led to all geth getting a kill-order on sight from the Alliance and Council? You are going to say that all that was good to do? Bullsh*t.
You can lie to yourself all you want, but it doesn't change the facts - the geth were seen as hostile murderers because they never did anything to try and change that view. Not. One. Thing.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 mai 2013 - 07:22 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But there is LESS risk to one spicific side - your family. Siding with the walking weapon will ALWAYS be the more risky option, because if not the threat of it going off and harming your family, there is STILL the threat that the Council will come down and kill the geth ANYWAY, under the assumption that the geth will bow down and take it, sparking a war ANYWAY. NOTHING YOU DO would have mattered at ALL, and you family would STILL be either dead, or at the very least in Council custody.
So, ONCE AGAIN, it all come's down to who's life you value more - the potentally unstable war machine, or your family. And I do not want to believe you are that callous as to just throw your brother's life to the wind - I want to believe that SOME part of you is human.
And ONCE AGAIN, wrong ideal. It's getting rid of a potentally unstable weapon that could suddenly go off and kill people. It's basically the same as removing a threat to their families from the quarian's perspective. And ONCE AGAIN, it's a GUN. It isn't supposed to be talking, and HASN'T demonstrated any form of intelligence necessary to fule the belief that it HAS material wants.
The CORRECT notion is - do you really want to play "coin toss" or "russion roullette" with your family? Sorry, but I refuse to believe you could be THAT callous to your brother's life and well-being. Nobody that CARED about their family would EVER put them at risk in such a situation, no matter WHAT the gamble. It's either "get rid of the potentally unstable weapon," "Sit back and let it potentally go off and kill your family," or "wait for the Council to come in, trash everything in the SAME war that NOTHING you did prevented in the least, and let your family either die in that, or be put under martial law by the Council." THOSE are the options. I know what a person that actually CARED about their family would do in that situation.
The fact that you would casually and callously risk your entire family on a coin toss is the stupidity. I refuse to believe your family means THAT little to you, to just bet them against weather or not the armed, potentally unstable gun will or won't go off.

Wow, I did not know this thread was still going on.

How do you figure that trying to kill them has less risk when the result was billions died?  You argument is null and void.  We know for a fact that one course of action led to billions dead.  It is a 100% known fact.  The other option was never explored so its outcome is unknown.

So trying to argue that it is fact talking to them was riskier when only one choice actually led to billions dead is bogus.

[remydat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Remydat one quick question. Why do you place all the onus of communicating peace on the quarians when they had little idea of the capabilities of the geth? The geth could have made the first move in proving that geth posed no threat.

In fact, geth proved a most dire threat to the quarians in almost to extinction. Geth chose to act in annihilating their enemy to ensure its preservation. No remorse no empathy and no feeling and no mercy. Geth could have left Rannoch at any time if peace and being left alone was truly the aim. Actions speak louder than words.

When have the geth proven trustworthy when their own survival is not threatened? They joined reapers to survive a little longer knowing they would be either slaves or scrapped once the cycle was finished. Geth have never made an action that was not based on their own interests. if they helped fight Sovvy in ME then they would have earned some trust. No geth stayed out because they would not risk their own units to fight heretic geth to help organics. They were not directly threatened hence could care less what happened to them.

If I move in next door to you and you come over and try and kill me, I don't need to prove to you I am peaceful.  I was already peaceful.  The only reason we have a conflict is because you decided my existence was problematic to you and decided to start something.  There is no indication in the story that the Geth had any intent to harm the Quarians.  We already know the Geth can live in peace because that is what they were doing before the Quarians viciously attacked them.  Proof the Geth are no threat?  When confronted with an order to shutdown, they said why when they could still SERVE the Quarians.  They begged to be allowed to SERVE.  They begged to be told what they did wrong so they could fix it and still SERVE.

Your bolded statements are quite ironic as they apply to the Quarians.  What mercy did they show the Geth?  What remorse or empathy?  You are upset the Geth reciprocated the lack of mercy, remorse, and empathy that the Quarians first showed them.  Can't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

As to the second bolded.  What actions have the Quarians or organics made that was not in their own interests regarding synthetics?  They created them to be their tools/slaves and then wanted to kill them because the tools woke up.  Again, can't throw stones if you live in a glass house.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But there is LESS risk to one spicific side - your family. Siding with the walking weapon will ALWAYS be the more risky option, because if not the threat of it going off and harming your family, there is STILL the threat that the Council will come down and kill the geth ANYWAY, under the assumption that the geth will bow down and take it, sparking a war ANYWAY. NOTHING YOU DO would have mattered at ALL, and you family would STILL be either dead, or at the very least in Council custody.
So, ONCE AGAIN, it all come's down to who's life you value more - the potentally unstable war machine, or your family. And I do not want to believe you are that callous as to just throw your brother's life to the wind - I want to believe that SOME part of you is human.
And ONCE AGAIN, wrong ideal. It's getting rid of a potentally unstable weapon that could suddenly go off and kill people. It's basically the same as removing a threat to their families from the quarian's perspective. And ONCE AGAIN, it's a GUN. It isn't supposed to be talking, and HASN'T demonstrated any form of intelligence necessary to fule the belief that it HAS material wants.
The CORRECT notion is - do you really want to play "coin toss" or "russion roullette" with your family? Sorry, but I refuse to believe you could be THAT callous to your brother's life and well-being. Nobody that CARED about their family would EVER put them at risk in such a situation, no matter WHAT the gamble. It's either "get rid of the potentally unstable weapon," "Sit back and let it potentally go off and kill your family," or "wait for the Council to come in, trash everything in the SAME war that NOTHING you did prevented in the least, and let your family either die in that, or be put under martial law by the Council." THOSE are the options. I know what a person that actually CARED about their family would do in that situation.
The fact that you would casually and callously risk your entire family on a coin toss is the stupidity. I refuse to believe your family means THAT little to you, to just bet them against weather or not the armed, potentally unstable gun will or won't go off.

Wow, I did not know this thread was still going on.

How do you figure that trying to kill them has less risk when the result was billions died?  You argument is null and void.  We know for a fact that one course of action led to billions dead.  It is a 100% known fact.  The other option was never explored so its outcome is unknown.

So trying to argue that it is fact talking to them was riskier when only one choice actually led to billions dead is bogus.

Dude... WAY overdue on a responce, and indicitive that you can't seem to admit when you're wrong on something.
First off, you act like they KNEW the geth had the capabilaty to form orginized resistance. They miscalculated how far the geth had advanced. And AGAIN, letting uncontrolable, armed and safety-free, assumedly emotion-imparitive lacking weapons wander freely on every street and in every home IS safe?
News flash - NO IT'S NOT. ONCE AGAIN, YOUR ARGUEMENT  is the null and void one, since you have delusioned yourself into thinking that risking your entire race on a coin toss is perfetcly rational. Would you really risk your brother and entire family on a coin toss? Because anyone that cared about their family wouldn't.
And that's the POINT. What the hell proof do you have that the other option WOULDN'T have bottomed out even WORSE, when the only proof you have is hindsight? The action the quarians took was the LESS RISKY. Disposing of the walking gun rather then letting them wander around on every street free of restraint. You can't blame the quarians for NOT wanting to gamble their families, loved ones, and entire species on a coin toss.

So, ONCE AGAIN, you have shown continued lack of comprehension, since you have zero proof of anything you said, and zero concern for consideration of innocent lives. How about you use something besides hindsight to prove YOUR bogus claims.

[Phatose]

So, letting the walking gun walk around is a horrible, unacceptable coin toss, but shooting at the walking gun is safe bet?

[Morlath]

Phatose wrote...

So, letting the walking gun walk around is a horrible, unacceptable coin toss, but shooting at the walking gun is safe bet?

Silver's entire "walking gun" argument comes down to the fact that the Geth are machines with mechanical strength rather than organic strength since the majority of the Geth units are bipedal and need to actually hold a weapon in order to be able to shot someone.

[silverexile17s]

Phatose wrote...

So, letting the walking gun walk around is a horrible, unacceptable coin toss, but shooting at the walking gun is safe bet?

Before it can shoot you? While watching it walk around your kids, knowing it might go off any moment?

What do YOU think? It's certenly safer then playing russan roulette with your entire family's life.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 mai 2013 - 11:35 .

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

Phatose wrote...

So, letting the walking gun walk around is a horrible, unacceptable coin toss, but shooting at the walking gun is safe bet?

Silver's entire "walking gun" argument comes down to the fact that the Geth are machines with mechanical strength rather than organic strength since the majority of the Geth units are bipedal and need to actually hold a weapon in order to be able to shot someone.

ONCE AGAIN, you show an inability to grasp the simple fact that, being built as simple tools, the geth were NOT supposed to have any form of intelligence. And therefore, no morals to guide them - nothing to make them think that killing indiscrimiately was wrong. You yourself tried to justify their mass slaughtering in the Morning War by saying they "didn't know any better and had no morals to guide them." You actually are going to try and peddle that this is a safe person to entrust with your life, your family's life, and the lives of everyone you've ever known and/or met?

How is THAT a sane conclusion? That's like thinking the Reapers are going to stop their harvests just because you went and asked nicely. Or expecting them to subside because you tried to cooperate with them. Saren already tried that. Look how putting blind faith in a killing machine with an agenda ended up for HIM.

P.S - Built for tools of labor and WAR. They can carry weapons that would shatter a regular person's arm, like the Widow Anti-Material Sniper Rifle. They were creatred to be laborors, meaning they woyld have increased strength to carry heavier loads. And of cource, you AGAIN ignore in-game fact, since Legion quite diffinitively proved that geth don't need weapons to kill people.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 mai 2013 - 11:43 .