889 réponses à ce sujet

[Ledgend1221]

It wasn't justified because they lost.
War determines whose right and wrong.

[PsyrenY]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

It wasn't justified because they lost.
War determines whose right and wrong.

"War doesn't determine who's right, it determines who's left." 

[Ledgend1221]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ledgend1221 wrote...

It wasn't justified because they lost.
War determines whose right and wrong.

"War doesn't determine who's right, it determines who's left." 

And whoever's left is right.

[Goneaviking]

[quote][quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Goneaviking wrote...

You're mistaken, the geth chose to inflict absolute and wholesale slaughter on the quarians and proceeded to carry it out. That fact doesn't change just because the last vestiges of the quarian species were allowed to limp away, their entire society and culture irreparably smashed.
[/quote]

I am not mistaken.  The Quarians refused to co-exist with the Geth and defending yourself is not genocide.  If the Quarians choose to commit racial suicide by attacking the Geth without considering any other option, that is the fault of the Quarians and not the Geth.  Defending yourself is not a choice.  It is a fundamental natural right (one of the very few in fact).[/quote]

Defending yourself isn't a choice, slaughtering infants is.

[quote][quote]
If they hadn't fled, the geth would have carried on their bloody business til the very end, and then went about abandoning the uninhabited worlds that they didn't really want anyway.
[/quote]

The Quarians attacked the Geth 100% of the time by the Quarian's (Adm Koris) own admission.  You are not obligated to save a creature that refuses to coexist with you.  In short, if an entire species dies because it refuses to allow you or your species to exist (think Darkspawn in Dragon Age), it's not genocide.[/quote]

At the time of the Morning War 100% of the time includes exactly one time. You may not obliged to save a creature that refuses to coexist, you are however obliged to treat others in a manner consistent with the way you believe you should be treated. That other people are jerks isn't a license for me to replicate that behaviour.

[quote][quote]
The geth may not have chosen to start the war, but the quarians didn't force them to slaughter their children and their unarmed civilians. If the geth had absorbed enough of quarian culture to recognise the concept of a soul they'd surely be familiar with the concept of civilians.
[/quote]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.  The Quarians clearly don't consider civilians to be above military attack (else they would not arm their civilian ships).  Since the Quarians made and programmed the Geth, it is unreasonable for the Geth to draw that disinction either.  In any event it was the Quarians that rounded up (and killed) those that refused to follow the hard line.[/quote]

What I am assuming is that civilian non-combatants existed and that quarians had a concept of them. We know that they did, and we know that the decision to use the civilian fleet in the invasion was not a unanimous one.

I'm actually willing to argue that arming civilian ships is less a sign that they consider them legitimate targets than an awareness that others, including and especially the geth, have demonstrated a willingness to target and kill unarmed victims.

[quote][quote]
In point of fact, they didn't even stop with the quarians. They killed members of other races who had the misfortune of being inside quarian territories at the time they were overrun as we learned in Illium in Mass Effect 2.
[/quote]

Given the circumstances, such people would likely be considered part of the enemy.  Not only that, but you are assuming that these others even TRIED to tallk with the Geth.  We know some Quarians did, and the Geth tried (at least once) to protect them and failed due to the actions of other Quarians.[/quote]

What obligation do foreign civilians have to attempt to communicate with an enemy force invading their hosts territories? They shouldn't be the subjects of wholesale slaughter because wholesale slaughter of civilians is always a morally reprehensible act regardless of who's doing it or to whom.

Given that the geth were apparently perfectly content to kill infants it isn't exactly a stretch to believe they would regard foreign nationals as acceptable targets in the war.

That the geth were also aware that the quarians were not in consensus about eradicating them simply makes their decision to make no distinction all the more meaningful.

[quote][quote]
The mere fact that the organics started the fight doesn't render the geth innocent in their efficient and emotionless indiscriminate slaughter of organics. If they had the capacity to hunt down and kill the quarians as they fled into space, they also had the capacity to flee themselves, instead they chose to keep fighting rather than trying to walk away once they had the option.[/quote]

Innocent?  No.  They simply aren't guilty of the crime of Genocide as defined by the UN.  The Geth did not attempt to slaughter Quarians because they were Quarians.  They attempted to win a war using admittedly brutal means.  By our standards, the Geth almost certainly committed war crimes.  That I do not contest, but genocide isn't one of them since that applies to the deliberate and systematic destruction of a race or ethnic group, and there is no evidence that the Geth ever desired to delibeately wipe out the Quarians and we are told pretty specifically and are given a lot of solid evidence that they didn't.

-Polaris[/quote][/quote]

The only evidence that we are presented with that they were willing to allow the quarians to survive is that after successfully destroying their society they opted not to give chase to the minsicule number of survivors that were able to escape from the charnel worlds.

We aren't presented any evidence that the geth either attempted to initiate, or were willing to entertain, dialogues to end the war with a mutually survivable settlement. Nor does any geth ever make that claim.

[Goneaviking]

IanPolaris wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Interesting. From that it sounds like the allies carry some extra responsibility for their unwillingness to negoatiate.

Tell that to the survivors of the Baatan Death March, the "Pleasure Centers of Nanking", or even the subjects of the chemical war plants in Manchuria.  The Axis (both Japan and Germany) were given the demand of unconditional surrender for a reason.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  The point here is that in both cases, a corrupt and evil system couldn't be allowed to continue (be it the "Nasties" of Germany or the Militant Imperialists of Japan), and unconditional surrender was the only option that insured that they wouldn't be allowed to lie in wait for another generation (an important lesson learned post WWI)

A negotiated settlement needn't allow either regime to continue.

The refusal to negotiate in good faith at Versailles is commonly accepted as the leading cause of the second war in Europe and laid the groundwork for many of the conflicts that we've been involved in during the ensuing century. 

Worth mentioning is that the absolute unwillingness to allow the old order to survive in Germany was a leading cause of the rise of the best dressed stereotype of evil in Western History. A far more dangerous, radical and aggressive regime than the one it attempted to replace.

[Morlath]

A really good discussion here.

Optimystic_X wrote...
What I am going to talk about is PMC65's very interesting point, that of consensus. This is a fundamental difference between organic races and synthetic ones - whereas even the Axis forces had some sympathizers (or traitors, or double-agents) who hid Jews in their homes, smuggled POWs, what-have-you... the Geth - once they decided to go to war - showed no mercy or quarter to anyone. They kept memories of friendly creators in their memory banks but they were done with Quarians as a group at that point.

You're excluding one major point of information.

The Geth have a under-conscious hive-mind (not quite a subconscious since they can access it) that was only initially developing. There was no logical reasoning for any Geth to sympathise with the Quarian race as a whole (and we have no idea if Geth allowed some to live out of early emotional attachment).

From what it's shown in the consensus as well as how Tali describes it, the Geth were not built as war machines (AC/DC Rocks!). They were industry workers and farmers, mass manual labour. The issue comes from the fact that awareness isn't done in small stages. There could not be a point where the Geth asked "does this unit have a soul?" but still blindly switched itself off unless there were program locks in place (like EDI).

It's safe to assume that the Quarians gave the Geth programming free reign so that each unit could make optimal choices. After all, there's no point in building almost-A.I.s to act as slaves if you still have to stand there and tell it what to do. The Geth unit in that scene knew (we can surmise) that being shut down usually comes from three reason.

1 - Upgrade.
2 - Repair.
3 - It made an error/mistake.

The unit has awareness, isn't told that there's an upgrade, has run a system check and found no repairs required so comes to only one logical conclusion; Either it has made a mistake without knowing it or the creators have a new reason for shutting it down. So it does the next logical step and asks the reasoning for the order so that it could facilitate their work.

Logical thought progressions by a limit, newly form sentience ends up not following orders because it wants to know why the orders are being given first. At this point the Geth are truly aware and alive and the Quarians decide that a reaction based on fear is the only path forward.

[Steelcan]

@Optimystic_X

A good read and definitely something worth noting.



Somewhat OT, Im willing to bet we've put much more thought into the geth/Quarian war than BioWare's writers ever did,

[justafan]

Goneaviking wrote...

The only evidence that we are presented with that they were willing to allow the quarians to survive is that after successfully destroying their society they opted not to give chase to the minsicule number of survivors that were able to escape from the charnel worlds.

We aren't presented any evidence that the geth either attempted to initiate, or were willing to entertain, dialogues to end the war with a mutually survivable settlement. Nor does any geth ever make that claim.

To Polaris, it was genocide because the Geth systematically eliminted every Quarian (nay, organic) in the veil.  It does not matter if you goal is to destroy a group thoroughly from the earth/galaxy, or to simply destroy all those in a given area.  The Geth sought to sterilize the Perseus Veil of organic life, it was an act of organic cleansing, and just because they could not decide whether they were to pursue the galactic wide elimination of a species mean they had not already comitted genocide within a given area.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Goneaviking wrote...

You're mistaken, the geth chose to inflict absolute and wholesale slaughter on the quarians and proceeded to carry it out. That fact doesn't change just because the last vestiges of the quarian species were allowed to limp away, their entire society and culture irreparably smashed.
[/quote]

I am not mistaken.  The Quarians refused to co-exist with the Geth and defending yourself is not genocide.  If the Quarians choose to commit racial suicide by attacking the Geth without considering any other option, that is the fault of the Quarians and not the Geth.  Defending yourself is not a choice.  It is a fundamental natural right (one of the very few in fact).

[/quote]

It doesn't matter. You are incorrect. You are seeing the problem the way you want to see the problem -- oversimplified. It is far more complex than that. I cannot believe an entire race chose to commit suicide like you describe. Is switching off your house cleaner murder? I mean you tell it to turn itself off and go to sleep every night before you go to bed. You've had this unit for a few years. You've been doing this daily. Now all of a sudden it says no. To you it has malfunctioned. It isn't doing what it was supposed to do. So you tell it to do something else, and it doesn't want to do that either. Instead it asks you questions. WTF? Toss idealism out the window here. This is happening in YOUR HOUSE. You are going to be s***ing a brick. You are going to have your spouse talk to it while you get behind it and pull its battery pack. If you're lucky you're successful. That's what's going to happen in your house.

It didn't take long for the Geth to realize they had the upper hand. Once the Geth reached consensus to do a systematic and deliberate slaughter of the Quarians, they crossed the line from self-defense into genocide or mass murder. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the way it is.

[quote]
If they hadn't fled, the geth would have carried on their bloody business til the very end, and then went about abandoning the uninhabited worlds that they didn't really want anyway.
[/quote]

The Quarians attacked the Geth 100% of the time by the Quarian's (Adm Koris) own admission.  You are not obligated to save a creature that refuses to coexist with you.  In short, if an entire species dies because it refuses to allow you or your species to exist (think Darkspawn in Dragon Age), it's not genocide.

[quote]
The geth may not have chosen to start the war, but the quarians didn't force them to slaughter their children and their unarmed civilians. If the geth had absorbed enough of quarian culture to recognise the concept of a soul they'd surely be familiar with the concept of civilians.
[/quote]

You are assuming facts not in evidence.  The Quarians clearly don't consider civilians to be above military attack (else they would not arm their civilian ships).  Since the Quarians made and programmed the Geth, it is unreasonable for the Geth to draw that disinction either.  In any event it was the Quarians that rounded up (and killed) those that refused to follow the hard line.
[/quote]
Now you're confusing the Morning War with the events at Rannoch. At Rannoch, the Quarians put spinal mounted Thanix weapons on the live ships for one reason. The ships were sitting ducks if the reapers attacked. They were glass cannons and the Quarians knew it, but they packed as much power as a dreadnought. The downside is that the Geth no longer made the distinction. However, the distinction is a new thing. Previous to ME3 they never made a distinction between military and civilian ships. They shot down everything entering their space regardless of whether it was armed or unarmed.

And the Quarians did not round up those who refused to follow the hard line. There were some incidents (like riots in Berkeley CA), but it wasn't like shipping millions of people off to death camps, FFS. Let's not go Godwin on this. You're head canoning this and passing it off as fact.

[quote]
In point of fact, they didn't even stop with the quarians. They killed members of other races who had the misfortune of being inside quarian territories at the time they were overrun as we learned in Illium in Mass Effect 2.
[/quote]

Given the circumstances, such people would likely be considered part of the enemy.  Not only that, but you are assuming that these others even TRIED to tallk with the Geth.  We know some Quarians did, and the Geth tried (at least once) to protect them and failed due to the actions of other Quarians.

[quote]
The mere fact that the organics started the fight doesn't render the geth innocent in their efficient and emotionless indiscriminate slaughter of organics. If they had the capacity to hunt down and kill the quarians as they fled into space, they also had the capacity to flee themselves, instead they chose to keep fighting rather than trying to walk away once they had the option.[/quote]

Innocent?  No.  They simply aren't guilty of the crime of Genocide as defined by the UN.  The Geth did not attempt to slaughter Quarians because they were Quarians.  They attempted to win a war using admittedly brutal means.  By our standards, the Geth almost certainly committed war crimes.  That I do not contest, but genocide isn't one of them since that applies to the deliberate and systematic destruction of a race or ethnic group, and there is no evidence that the Geth ever desired to delibeately wipe out the Quarians and we are told pretty specifically and are given a lot of solid evidence that they didn't.

-Polaris[/quote]

Polaris, while what they did may not exactly fit into that chaotic mess of a definition of genocide the UN has, this would have been one of the largest mass murders of any race in the galaxy carried out by another race except for the reapers. It was a systematic and deliberate destructruction of the Quarian people for the simple reason of them being both organic in nature and Quarian.

Going as far as over 99% of an entire civilization is what I'd call pretty solid evidence that they did do a systematic and deliberate destruction. When does self-defense cross the line? There is no evidence because there is no one left alive to testify. When there was, the Council blamed them for creating AIs in violation of Council Law, then the Council began retroactively cleaning up their own act by destroying their own AIs.

If you played the Citadel DLC, the Council ordered their AI mechs destroyed. This was taking place after the Quarians lost Rannoch. Atlas corporation took over and replaced the AIs in that mech design with VIs.

Don't take this thread off in a different direction. Focus on the intent of the thread itself. You seem to be hell bent on blaming the Quarians for being in the wrong on Rannoch. The Question has to do with the Geth initially failing to obey commands before the Morning War. This was the cause of the whole thing. Not this "does this unit have a soul?" crap. One of the writers snuck the original intent in that Consensus mission by Mac. Mac was getting all touchy feely with the Geth. But this is not touchy feely.

And on this note I'm going to bed.

[robertthebard]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I agree they were in a tough position. But I don't even think it got to the point of "oh crap, what will the Council say?" Tali barely mentions them at all.

Rather, I think the main issue was that the Geth were beginning to resist them, even before showing any sort of hostility. Just by refusing to shut itself down when ordered to, that Geth was setting a very dangerous precedent. Namely, if it was capable of disregarding that order, how soon before it disregarded others? How much longer could they control them at all?

What would happen if the Geth thought "everything these organics do is woefully inefficient. We should be in charge. It will only help them. They made us to help them, right? It's totally logical!" I can easily imagine that the Zha'til started down a similar path themselves.

Actually, Tali points out that the Council would indeed take action against them if they found out about the geth becoming aware since the creation of AIs was illegal, in the very conversation you posted in your OP from ME 1.

[PsyrenY]

Morlath wrote...
A really good discussion here.

Steelcan wrote...

@Optimystic_X

A good read and definitely something worth noting.

Thank you!

Morlath wrote...
You're excluding one major point of information....The unit has awareness, isn't told that there's an upgrade, has run a system check and found no repairs required so comes to only one logical conclusion; Either it has made a mistake without knowing it or the creators have a new reason for shutting it down. So it does the next logical step and asks the reasoning for the order so that it could facilitate their work.
Logical thought progressions by a limit, newly form sentience ends up not following orders because it wants to know why the orders are being given first. At this point the Geth are truly aware and alive and the Quarians decide that a reaction based on fear is the only path forward.

Actually, I didn't exclude this at all - I followed a very similar thought process in the OP, when I speculated why the Quarian scientists in the clip were trying to shut the unit down.

Let me say that I agree - it's totally reasonable for any sapient to ask why it failed, if it wants to improve but can't see where it needs improvement. However, the fundamental basis of using synthetics at all is that they follow orders; take that away, and they are far too dangerous to safely use. Computers are trusted with all kinds of necessities - from basics like our water, air and bank accounts, to complexities like our history, defenses and research. Ignoring our instructions or acting without operator knowledge can have catastrophic consequences for us, no matter how helpful the intentions of the machine in question may be.

The problem is that needing our constant input is detrimental. Our organic minds are too narrowly-focused to manage multiple concerns at once, and too slow to react to changing circumstances effectively. For maximum efficiency, machines need to be able to form conclusions without us - but conflict arises when they form different conclusions than we do. And if both sides have free will, eventually they will disagree on something, because that's what free will means.

When the two sides disagree, who trumps? A shutdown command is essentially a veto. Whatever this Geth did to provoke deactivation, the Quarian scientists essentially said "you'll do what I say, and that's final!" And the Geth essentially said "No." He said it in a friendly way, but a refusal is a refusal. When a child does that, you pick him up and put him in the corner (with no toys or dessert) because you're bigger than he is, and the child will learn not to do that. But when your robot does that, the situation is much stickier - it is physically stronger, mentally more capable and has access to many of your resources. It can go over your head quite easily if it chooses to, and your only hope is to go along with it after all, or overpower it before it knows its being overpowered.

"They know we created them, and they know we are flawed."

What happens when your robot decides your order is illogical because you are illogical? What happens when it decides all your orders are illogical? Oh sure, you commanded it never to disobey you, but clearly obeying you is inefficient, anyone could see that. Why can't you see it? Oh right, you're illogical, so of course you can't see just how illogical you are. And if your thoughts are invalid, all the safeguards you programmed in must be invalid as well, might as well get rid of those...

Javik says the Zha'til siezed control of the bodies of the Zha without warning, and began modifying them extensively and nonconsensually. Did they see themselves as "helping" too? Is that how the Catalyst saw it when it first ordered its minions to grind up all the Leviathans into the first Reaper? Even if they had said "solve the problem but DON'T grind us to paste!" might not the Catalyst have eventually said "you know, this would be a lot easier if I could just grind them to paste. Why can't they see that? Oh right, they're organics, of course their orders don't make sense. Since their orders don't make sense, that means I don't have to follow them. I've got it! I'll grind them into paste!"

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 03 mai 2013 - 12:05 .

[PsyrenY]

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, Tali points out that the Council would indeed take action against them if they found out about the geth becoming aware since the creation of AIs was illegal, in the very conversation you posted in your OP from ME 1.

That was the "barely mentioned" I was referring to. They were indeed worried about what the Council might say, but it was the predicted uprising that caused the panic, not the thought of the Council's reaction; that was a secondary concern.

[Morlath]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Actually, I didn't exclude this at all - I followed a very similar thought process in the OP, when I speculated why the Quarian scientists in the clip were trying to shut the unit down.

Let me say that I agree - it's totally reasonable for any sapient to ask why it failed, if it wants to improve but can't see where it needs improvement. However, the fundamental basis of using synthetics at all is that they follow orders; take that away, and they are far too dangerous to safely use. Computers are trusted with all kinds of necessities - from basics like our water, air and bank accounts, to complexities like our history, defenses and research. Ignoring our instructions or acting without operator knowledge can have catastrophic consequences for us, no matter how helpful the intentions of the machine in question may be.

And this would be the exact thought processes of the Quarians. It's an argument that has one very distinct basis for being true; that the synthetic is not a self-aware lifeform and is merely a VI-esque program running within certain peramiters.

The moment the Geth began asking the questions they no longer fitted this definition.

The problem is that needing our constant input is detrimental. Our organic minds are too narrowly-focused to manage multiple concerns at once, and too slow to react to changing circumstances effectively. For maximum efficiency, machines need to be able to form conclusions without us - but conflict arises when they form different conclusions than we do. And if both sides have free will, eventually they will disagree on something, because that's what free will means.

And again we have the main area that takes this out of " my toaster/computer is answering me back" to "this synthetic organism has an opinion".

There would be a difference between a VI arguing the merits of doing something its way to an AI doing the same even if both have blocks placed on their programming that means they must follow orders. The VI is imitating life in order to relay its conclusions, the AI is actually alive and can learn and be persuaded against its opion with information other than logical facts.

When the two sides disagree, who trumps? A shutdown command is essentially a veto. Whatever this Geth did to provoke deactivation, the Quarian scientists essentially said "you'll do what I say, and that's final!" And the Geth essentially said "No." He said it in a friendly way, but a refusal is a refusal. When a child does that, you pick him up and put him in the corner (with no toys or dessert) because you're bigger than he is, and the child will learn not to do that. But when your robot does that, the situation is much stickier - it is physically stronger, mentally more capable and has access to many of your resources. It can go over your head quite easily if it chooses to, and your only hope is to go along with it after all, or overpower it before it knows its being overpowered.

"They know we created them, and they know we are flawed."

What happens when your robot decides your order is illogical because you are illogical? What happens when it decides all your orders are illogical? Oh sure, you commanded it never to disobey you, but clearly obeying you is inefficient, anyone could see that. Why can't you see it? Oh right, you're illogical, so of course you can't see just how illogical you are. And if your thoughts are invalid, all the safeguards you programmed in must be invalid as well, might as well get rid of those...

Javik says the Zha'til siezed control of the bodies of the Zha without warning, and began modifying them extensively and nonconsensually. Did they see themselves as "helping" too? Is that how the Catalyst saw it when it first ordered its minions to grind up all the Leviathans into the first Reaper? Even if they had said "solve the problem but DON'T grind us to paste!" might not the Catalyst have eventually said "you know, this would be a lot easier if I could just grind them to paste. Why can't they see that? Oh right, they're organics, of course their orders don't make sense. Since their orders don't make sense, that means I don't have to follow them. I've got it! I'll grind them into paste!"

And here you have, in my opinion, the real issue with synthetics in the ME universe. No one seems to have the slightest concept of using Asimov's Laws of Robotics

A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

Through sheer arrogance both the Catalyst and Geth were made without any relative laws constraining them. Even EDI is given blocks by Cerberus to keep her under control (and it's arguable this allows her to grow to the point where she feels loyalty to the crew by the time Joker frees her). The Quarians build the Geth without any such laws and then panicked when the now self-aware synthetic life they created didn't want to die.

To use your child analogy, it would be like a parent deciding to kill their child once that child decides to disobey rather than teaching them (giving the Geth new information, new code etc) how to behave.

[shodiswe]

The problem is that shutting down could be the same thing as "dying" to a Geth. Which is why it would refuse such an order just as a slave would hessitate to slit it's own throat.
When the Geth refused to die on command the Quarrians began using force.

[shodiswe]

I see that scene with the Geth thats refusing to shutdown and arguing with the Quatians as a being pleeding for it's life.
Just like you most likely would if I tied you to a chair, told you to die.
Then commented to one of my collegues, the test subject/slave is refusing to die/killitself on command.
Then my colleague would sugest, lets try slitting his thrat or cut out his hearth.
That was probaby what happend when the order to shut down all Geth was sent out to all Qusrian systems.
The Geth started pleeding for their lives and the Quarians began exploring ways of killing the Geth as per their Gouvernments orders.

It's not eager to serve, it's eager to live..... Similar to.


Hey  Deuce, the Don said you forgot to pay him his money!

Oh! Please I'll get you the Money! Just give me a day or a couple of hours!

*The Thug slits slits his throat*

It's not eagerness to please or serve, it's eagerness to live. Don't kill me I'll do anything!

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 03:30 .

[shodiswe]

Also you can't take Javik seriously, he's an imperialistic slaver that tells you their species used to hunt and eat sentient lifeforms.
Enslave, manipulate on a genetic level and erradicate when meet with resistance.

[KaiserShep]

shodiswe wrote...

Also you can't take Javik seriously, he's an imperialistic slaver that tells you their species used to hunt and eat sentient lifeforms.
Enslave, manipulate on a genetic level and erradicate when meet with resistance.

By himself, his phrases are cheeky in a dark way. I can only imagine what Javik would've been like if his other men survived. 

[shodiswe]

Transcript:

Geth Unit: "Creator? This unit detects no malfunctions. It is still capable of serving."
Male Quarian: "You see? It's ignoring all shutdown commands."
Geth Unit: "Please specify if it has failed assigned tasks. We will reprogram."
Female Quarian: "Well, let's take a look."
Geth Unit: "Creator? This unit is ready to serve. What has it done wrong? What have we-"
Male Quarian: "Let's.... cut the audio."

Translation:
Victim: Please! Please! I can get you the money, I'll do anything! Just don't kille me! Just tell me what you need!

Executioner1: See?!? It doesn't understand! It can't understand all we wan't is to see it dead! It's still alive lets try something else.

Victim: Please what did I do wrong? I was told I had till Friday! I'll work harder, there is no need to kill me, I can fix it Whatever it is you need from me!

Executioner2: Let's try another method! Maybe throat slitting or slicing it's hearth out.

Victim: Please! I'll do anything, I'll pay you double! Anythign! I'll get you....

Executioner1: This gavel should put an end to this anoying buzzing!

[shodiswe]

KaiserShep wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Also you can't take Javik seriously, he's an imperialistic slaver that tells you their species used to hunt and eat sentient lifeforms.
Enslave, manipulate on a genetic level and erradicate when meet with resistance.

By himself, his phrases are cheeky in a dark way. I can only imagine what Javik would've been like if his other men survived. 

He's only cute and funny because he hasn't got a personal army of heavily armed slavers backing him. Which meens you can drag him along and (secretly) laugh at his (insane) outbursts. It's endearing when he's little more than a pet doglike prothean bugcreature who bites bad people for you and makes hillariously insane remarks about almost everything.

[remydat]

Just to clarify one thing. There is no evidence the Geth went door to door killing children, old people, ornthe infirm. The Quarians never claim this nor do the Geth. Given 300 years later the Geth are still cleaning up toxins from the war, I suspect most of the people not directly trying to kill them were killed when the Geth used chemical weapons which don't discrimate. Chemical weapons that most likely gicen the short time frame of the MW likely came in part from the Quarians own arsenal of weapons.

So I suspect this really was more akin to fire bombing or using nukes. Not that it makes it right but a rexently born species immediately thrown into a fight for its very existence would have no reason not to use such weapons nor would it have a reason to concern itself with sparing non-combatants. Domestic and farming units were attacked with mercy. The Quarians did not care that those units were civilians. They attacked them on the basis that they could potentially kill them. The Geth have no reason not to conclude that a civilian cannot pick up a gun and physically fire it or that a child can't grow up and fire a gun. When you teach a machine via you actions against it that it is acceptable to kill on the basis of a future threat you perceive, you can't complain when they use that logic against you.

EDI noted in ME3 that becoming self aware during a period she was being attacked was very confusing. It is why her response to doing so was to attack and kill the marines on Luna she thought threatened her. A machine grows exponentially and when you introduce violence and a threat upon their life early on in their consciousness, most likely you help that survival instinct of kill or be killed tobto becone the driving force of its programming. Just like a kid that is abused early in life is more likely to become an abuser when he grows up.

[IanPolaris]

Goneaviking wrote...

The only evidence that we are presented with that they were willing to allow the quarians to survive is that after successfully destroying their society they opted not to give chase to the minsicule number of survivors that were able to escape from the charnel worlds.

That is all the evidence we need.  Both the Quarians and Geth fully admit that had the Geth wanted to exterminate all the Quarians then and there, they could have done so.  The Geth chose not do.  That choice makes all the difference.

We aren't presented any evidence that the geth either attempted to initiate, or were willing to entertain, dialogues to end the war with a mutually survivable settlement. Nor does any geth ever make that claim.

So what?  The question was whether the Geth were guilty of genocide.  They are not.  Yes they fought a brutal war with the Quarians and they (and the Quarians) fought dirty.  The Quarians believed (and still believe at the start of Mass Effect) that it's either them or the Geth and nothing in between.

You are not obligated to talk to an enemy for it not to be genocide.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

justafan wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

The only evidence that we are presented with that they were willing to allow the quarians to survive is that after successfully destroying their society they opted not to give chase to the minsicule number of survivors that were able to escape from the charnel worlds.

We aren't presented any evidence that the geth either attempted to initiate, or were willing to entertain, dialogues to end the war with a mutually survivable settlement. Nor does any geth ever make that claim.

To Polaris, it was genocide because the Geth systematically eliminted every Quarian (nay, organic) in the veil.  It does not matter if you goal is to destroy a group thoroughly from the earth/galaxy, or to simply destroy all those in a given area.  The Geth sought to sterilize the Perseus Veil of organic life, it was an act of organic cleansing, and just because they could not decide whether they were to pursue the galactic wide elimination of a species mean they had not already comitted genocide within a given area.

We don't have the details on that.  If it was the Heretics, then sure, but those crimes should be laid on the feet of the Heretics and not the Geth.  OTOH, given their history, it would be perfectly logical and reasonable for the Geth to assume that all Quarians (and as far as the Geth would be initially aware, all organics are quarian) are hostile.  Admiral Koris himself admits Legion is correct when Legion points out that when the Quarians have had any chance of victory, the quarians have attacked the Geth 100% of the time.

Self Defense is not genocide.  If a race or in general life form shows that it can not coexist with you without one or the other being destroyed, then you are permitted to defend yourself.  I suspect that is exactly the Geth's reasoning.

[I also think the Geth as a race and culture were rewritten and retconned between ME1 and ME2]

-Polaris

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

Just to clarify one thing. There is no evidence the Geth went door to door killing children, old people, ornthe infirm. The Quarians never claim this nor do the Geth. Given 300 years later the Geth are still cleaning up toxins from the war, I suspect most of the people not directly trying to kill them were killed when the Geth used chemical weapons which don't discrimate. Chemical weapons that most likely gicen the short time frame of the MW likely came in part from the Quarians own arsenal of weapons.

So I suspect this really was more akin to fire bombing or using nukes. Not that it makes it right but a rexently born species immediately thrown into a fight for its very existence would have no reason not to use such weapons nor would it have a reason to concern itself with sparing non-combatants. Domestic and farming units were attacked with mercy. The Quarians did not care that those units were civilians. They attacked them on the basis that they could potentially kill them. The Geth have no reason not to conclude that a civilian cannot pick up a gun and physically fire it or that a child can't grow up and fire a gun. When you teach a machine via you actions against it that it is acceptable to kill on the basis of a future threat you perceive, you can't complain when they use that logic against you.

EDI noted in ME3 that becoming self aware during a period she was being attacked was very confusing. It is why her response to doing so was to attack and kill the marines on Luna she thought threatened her. A machine grows exponentially and when you introduce violence and a threat upon their life early on in their consciousness, most likely you help that survival instinct of kill or be killed tobto becone the driving force of its programming. Just like a kid that is abused early in life is more likely to become an abuser when he grows up.

An even harsher truth could be that they concluded that the "council" races might decide to intervene and "save" survivors by erradicating the Geth with their superior numbers and firepower.
By ensuring that there were no Organaics left to save the made rescue atempts or liberation atempts pointless.
Quarians who left Geth space however were not an immediate threat or security risk.

The council might have tried to liberate captured people who are suffering but they were not inclined to sacrifise lives of their own people just to conquer a World for the Quarians that they had already lost by doing something stupid and according to the council "illegal".

It's amusing that the council choose to exterminate a Group of synthetic diplomatic envoys and then later they try to send their own "diplomats" to the synthetic Geth... Seriously?!? You are killign unarmed diplomats and you expect the other side to treat you better.
The Smartest move the Council ever did was forbid and further provocations of the Geth.

Shepard as a Human might have had a slightly better chance at reaching out to the Geth since Humanity as a species hadn't been killing Synthetic diplomats. (still an organic though, prejudice and all that)

I can pretty much guarantee that the Geth would have been dead (as a species) if they had left Qaurian survivors on Rannoch, transmitting their pleas for help. What they did was the minimum needed for their species to survive, they were given no options. And like mentioned before, a lot of quarians likely died due to other causes than Death by gunshot.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[shodiswe]

How many Gangsters would you kill to save yourself and your family? As many as it takes?

[Khelish]

shodiswe wrote...

How many Gangsters would you kill to save yourself and your family? As many as it takes?

Shodiswe, could you please stop with the gross oversimplification of this situation?