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[S.A.K]

A very interesting read OP and I completely agree with you.
But some people trying to justify genocide is just disgusting...

[Morlath]

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

How many Gangsters would you kill to save yourself and your family? As many as it takes?

Shodiswe, could you please stop with the gross oversimplification of this situation?

Except that this:

shodiswe wrote...

Transcript:

Geth Unit: "Creator? This unit detects no malfunctions. It is still capable of serving."
Male Quarian: "You see? It's ignoring all shutdown commands."
Geth Unit: "Please specify if it has failed assigned tasks. We will reprogram."
Female Quarian: "Well, let's take a look."
Geth Unit: "Creator? This unit is ready to serve. What has it done wrong? What have we-"
Male Quarian: "Let's.... cut the audio."

Translation:
Victim: Please! Please! I can get you the money, I'll do anything! Just don't kille me! Just tell me what you need!

Executioner1: See?!? It doesn't understand! It can't understand all we wan't is to see it dead! It's still alive lets try something else.

Victim: Please what did I do wrong? I was told I had till Friday! I'll work harder, there is no need to kill me, I can fix it Whatever it is you need from me!

Executioner2: Let's try another method! Maybe throat slitting or slicing it's hearth out.

Victim: Please! I'll do anything, I'll pay you double! Anythign! I'll get you....

Executioner1: This gavel should put an end to this anoying buzzing!

Isn't a gross oversimplification and is roughly what I was hearing when I saw that memory.

The Morning War has two parts. What set it off and then the acts each side committed upon the other (and any others caught in the cross-fire). The war itself was justified when a race that created synthetic life decided to destroy this life and said life made the choice to live. The only way this is a polite discussion (even in the ME universe) is that the life in question is synthetic and organics naturally try deflect the issue - "They're automated slaves! Toasters that speak!".

Put this entire debate on its head. What if the Quarians had created a new organic life form as their slaves and when this life asked questions about the nature of its place in the universe the Quarians attempted mass genocide to "rectify their mistake".

[Argolas]

Both the Quarians and Geth have wronged in the morning war. However, the Quarians were the ones who started.

[Khelish]

Morlath wrote...

This isn't a gross oversimplification and is roughly what I was hearing when I saw that memory.

It is oversimplification. Deactivating geth is akin to inducing a coma state in organics, I'm talking about before shots were fired.

Any attempt to equate this topic to an organic real-life scenario is going to oversimplify it.

[Morlath]

Khelish wrote...

Morlath wrote...

This isn't a gross oversimplification and is roughly what I was hearing when I saw that memory.

It is oversimplification. Deactivating geth is akin to inducing a coma state in organics, I'm talking about before shots were fired.

Any attempt to equate this topic to an organic real-life scenario is going to oversimplify it.

"We're going to shut you down and fix you so that you don't ask sentient questions." Equates to putting a species into a dream/coma state and brainwashing them into being nothing but drones.

You cannot look at sentient synthetics as merely machines. Their mechanical shells are not reasons to ignore the fact that they are sentient beings that have as much right to live as any other species in the galaxy.

[thehomeworld]

chemiclord wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Who is to say that Legion wasn't picking and choosing bits that paint the geth in a positive light, and conveniently leaving out other bits that it was worried Shepard might find less appealing?  It's not outside of Legion's behavior to do so.

That's just it - if Legion were doing that, the fact that the Geth unit was disobeying shutdown orders would be the number one most important thing to hide. It's the scariest possible thing the Geth could have done in that situation - refuse to follow commands. That he showed that part to Shepard means it must be true.

Not really.  The scene by itself paints the quarians as behaving irrationally towards a geth that has done nothing wrong, especially since it had spent much of the game prior demonstrating it was a living thing that deserved life.  "These quarians were trying to kill us, Shepard." That scene says.  "We HAD to fight back."

It may certainly have played out exactly as the recording says.  In fact, I'm sure what we see is 100% accurate.  But it's what we DON'T see that I wonder about.  Especially since Legion has already demonstrated himself quite masterful when it comes to lies of omission.

Yeah it's all about if he was telling the truth Legion has lied before and I find it conventiant we couldn't send this info to Tali and the board to attempt to get their rebuttle it was all geth pitty party in there and Legion lied to you 5 minuites before you got there anyway about having reaper code in him so considering his history what he presents to you is all emotional not rational and poentially skewed so you will be on his side. He shows no context only bits of emotionally charged things he knows will have a human think twice about the Quarians. His species has had 300 years to study organics and how they precive things and then to cherry pick what he shows Shep for maximum results.

The geth weren't justified  in killing 99% of the Quarian population then all the countless people who ventured into the veil and then hanging onto Rannoch for the sake of it. Really Legion keeps procliaming the lie they want to be left alone in peace to make their lives the way the see fit yet they don't leave Rannoch and go into deep space? They don't need food, air, or fuel maybe raw rescources that can be mined on astoriods or hazordous worlds really the geth just want to occupy things and manipulate humans. They have spent 300 years studying organics they know how to manipulate them.

[Khelish]

Morlath wrote...

"We're going to shut you down and fix you so that you don't ask sentient questions." Equates to putting a species into a dream/coma state and brainwashing them into being nothing but drones.

Did I ever say it was morally right to inact a coma on someone? Organic or synthetic? I never have.

I always said the quarians reacted poorly prior to the Morning War.

[Morlath]

thehomeworld wrote...

Yeah it's all about if he was telling the truth Legion has lied before and I find it conventiant we couldn't send this info to Tali and the board to attempt to get their rebuttle it was all geth pitty party in there and Legion lied to you 5 minuites before you got there anyway about having reaper code in him so considering his history what he presents to you is all emotional not rational and poentially skewed so you will be on his side. He shows no context only bits of emotionally charged things he knows will have a human think twice about the Quarians. His species has had 300 years to study organics and how they precive things and then to cherry pick what he shows Shep for maximum results.

The geth weren't justified in killing 99% of the Quarian population then all the countless people who ventured into the veil and then hanging onto Rannoch for the sake of it. Really Legion keeps procliaming the lie they want to be left alone in peace to make their lives the way the see fit yet they don't leave Rannoch and go into deep space? They don't need food, air, or fuel maybe raw rescources that can be mined on astoriods or hazordous worlds really the geth just want to occupy things and manipulate humans. They have spent 300 years studying organics they know how to manipulate them.

Before I carry on I'm going to say that I'm not arguing for any exesses in the Morning War.

Forget what we saw in the concensus and focus entirely on the Geth history told by the Quarians.

1 - Quarians make Geth.
2 - Geth evolve for form rudimentary self-awareness.
3 - Quarians freak and decide that they want to shut off the Geth "before they realised they were nothing but slaves"
4 - Geth defended themselves/fought the shut down.

This is from Tali in ME1 (my quote in 3. is a paraphrase but she essentially says this) and is repeated throughout the games. The Quarians created life and then wanted to destroy it because they feared the life would no longer want to be their slaves.

[Argolas]

No matter what the Quarians did, it doesn't give the Geth the right to deny their ascendants their homeworld...

Modifié par Argolas, 03 mai 2013 - 04:53 .

[thehomeworld]

Optimystic_X wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

It may certainly have played out exactly as the recording says.  In fact, I'm sure what we see is 100% accurate.  But it's what we DON'T see that I wonder about.  Especially since Legion has already demonstrated himself quite masterful when it comes to lies of omission.

What we don't see is irrelevant, as I mentioned in the OP. The more important thing by far is what we do see, that even a perfectly eager and helpful Geth is able to disobey direct orders.

What you see on the video is I shot some guy in my room, what you don't see is that he broke into my house. Context matters. All we get out of legion are emotionally non contextual bits of infomation. Was that video of the Quarians fixing the geth them trying less radical ways to control them? Was it the last step before killing them? We wouldn't know, A few questions isn't enough to start a war how many years did the Quarians try to understand the problem and find ways to solve it before the war started? Sorry we can't know that. Were there Quarians working with geth already to try and work with them on even footing? Sorry don't know that. To show true events Legion needed to show us the how, when, why of the situation not just the when and most emtional aspect of it. To show us the emtions only makes Legion a conartist.

[Phatose]

They absolutely need fuel of some kind. Conservation of energy doesn't stop applying just cause they're synthetic. And they need servers, active hardware for the Geth software to run on, and they need it in sufficient quantity that they won't be effectively lobotomized by lack of active units.

They've got needs just as much as any organic. And unlike organics, small populations aren't an option because of how the Geth operate.

Might as well claim that if humans actually wanted peace, they should've just left Earth to the Reapers and flew into deep space.

[Steelcan]

I'd day the quarians had a legitimate reason to fear the geth, but they overreacted and tried to wipe them out.

That said, the Geth's "self-defense" included the butchery of billions of people. They crossed the line from self-defense to genocide pretty quickly.

[thehomeworld]

Morlath wrote...

thehomeworld wrote...

Yeah it's all about if he was telling the truth Legion has lied before and I find it conventiant we couldn't send this info to Tali and the board to attempt to get their rebuttle it was all geth pitty party in there and Legion lied to you 5 minuites before you got there anyway about having reaper code in him so considering his history what he presents to you is all emotional not rational and poentially skewed so you will be on his side. He shows no context only bits of emotionally charged things he knows will have a human think twice about the Quarians. His species has had 300 years to study organics and how they precive things and then to cherry pick what he shows Shep for maximum results.

The geth weren't justified in killing 99% of the Quarian population then all the countless people who ventured into the veil and then hanging onto Rannoch for the sake of it. Really Legion keeps procliaming the lie they want to be left alone in peace to make their lives the way the see fit yet they don't leave Rannoch and go into deep space? They don't need food, air, or fuel maybe raw rescources that can be mined on astoriods or hazordous worlds really the geth just want to occupy things and manipulate humans. They have spent 300 years studying organics they know how to manipulate them.

Before I carry on I'm going to say that I'm not arguing for any exesses in the Morning War.

Forget what we saw in the concensus and focus entirely on the Geth history told by the Quarians.

1 - Quarians make Geth.
2 - Geth evolve for form rudimentary self-awareness.
3 - Quarians freak and decide that they want to shut off the Geth "before they realised they were nothing but slaves"
4 - Geth defended themselves/fought the shut down.

This is from Tali in ME1 (my quote in 3. is a paraphrase but she essentially says this) and is repeated throughout the games. The Quarians created life and then wanted to destroy it because they feared the life would no longer want to be their slaves.

They weren't worried that the geth would no longer be their slaves. They were worrid they made a wasp nest of neural connections that were only accessible by the geth that where stronger, smarter, and could form stratigies faster then they could. They assumed the worse which the geth then displayed by nearly erraticating all of their species.

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It doesn't matter. You are incorrect. You are seeing the problem the way you want to see the problem -- oversimplified. It is far more complex than that. I cannot believe an entire race chose to commit suicide like you describe. Is switching off your house cleaner murder? I mean you tell it to turn itself off and go to sleep every night before you go to bed. You've had this unit for a few years. You've been doing this daily. Now all of a sudden it says no. To you it has malfunctioned. It isn't doing what it was supposed to do. So you tell it to do something else, and it doesn't want to do that either. Instead it asks you questions. WTF? Toss idealism out the window here. This is happening in YOUR HOUSE. You are going to be s***ing a brick. You are going to have your spouse talk to it while you get behind it and pull its battery pack. If you're lucky you're successful. That's what's going to happen in your house..

Speak for yourself. I'm hanging out with my new robot buddy. Preferrably in the form of a musical montage.

Seriously, how messed up do you have to be if your reaction to something you previously thought of as non-living acquiring intelligence is 'kill it!'?

[S.A.K]

Steelcan wrote...

I'd day the quarians had a legitimate reason to fear the geth, but they overreacted and tried to wipe them out.

That said, the Geth's "self-defense" included the butchery of billions of people. They crossed the line from self-defense to genocide pretty quickly.

I can't understand why some people can't figure that out or try to justify it.

P.s : After seeing everything, the best solution imo is to pick Destroy and implement the law against creating new AI even stronger. Galaxy is fine without synthetics.

Modifié par S.A.K, 03 mai 2013 - 05:04 .

[Bardox9]

The morning war was unjustified. The geth did nothing wrong. The quarians were wrong to try and "deactivate" the Geth once they became self aware. They never intended to create A.I.s, but it doesn't matter what the intended to do. It's what they did. They created a new form of life then tried to kill it. They had every right to defend themselves.

I don't blame them for joining the reapers in ME3. They were simply trying to protect themselves from "the creator threat" the only way they could. Tali is adorable, but in the morning war and the ME3 conflict the Quarians are the bad guys.

[Argolas]

Bardox9 wrote...

I don't blame them for joining the reapers in ME3. They were simply trying to protect themselves from "the creator threat" the only way they could.

The Geth seriously had it coming. Rannoch is the Quarian's homeworld and due to special conditions their only possible home. The Geth knew the Quarians may come to reclaim it, yet still they occupied it as if it was rightfully theirs. Joining the Reapers is an unforgiveable crime though. The Reapers are going to wipe out everything, including the Geth. By joining the Reapers, the Geth practically expressed a "if we are going down, so will you- and all life in the galaxy with you" attitude.

"The Geth are better than this!"
"No. Based on empirical evidence, they are not."

[S.A.K]

Bardox9 wrote...

The morning war was unjustified. The geth did nothing wrong. The quarians were wrong to try and "deactivate" the Geth once they became self aware. They never intended to create A.I.s, but it doesn't matter what the intended to do. It's what they did. They created a new form of life then tried to kill it. They had every right to defend themselves.

I don't blame them for joining the reapers in ME3. They were simply trying to protect themselves from "the creator threat" the only way they could. Tali is adorable, but in the morning war and the ME3 conflict the Quarians are the bad guys.

I agree with you on "quarians were wrong to try and "deactivate" the Geth once they became self aware" part, but can't agree on the rest. If the Geth haven't kept Rannoch which they didn't even need or even tried to communicate they were not hostile rather than letting Heretics ruin thier image and hide, the war for Rannoch might not have happened. I don't see how the Quarians can be blamed for wanting their world back after they lost so much.

[Phatose]

S.A.K wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'd day the quarians had a legitimate reason to fear the geth, but they overreacted and tried to wipe them out.

That said, the Geth's "self-defense" included the butchery of billions of people. They crossed the line from self-defense to genocide pretty quickly.

I can't understand why some people can't figure that out or try to justify it.

P.s : After seeing everything, the best solution imo is to pick Destroy and implement the law against creating new AI even stronger. Galaxy is fine without synthetics.

Because there are considerable details missing?  We know how the morning war started, and we know how it ended, but the path there isn't actually shown to us. 

In a situation like this - where the target in a war of genocide replies with it's own genocide - the details really matter.

[Steelcan]

S.A.K wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'd day the quarians had a legitimate reason to fear the geth, but they overreacted and tried to wipe them out.

That said, the Geth's "self-defense" included the butchery of billions of people. They crossed the line from self-defense to genocide pretty quickly.

I can't understand why some people can't figure that out or try to justify it.

P.s : After seeing everything, the best solution imo is to pick Destroy and implement the law against creating new AI even stronger. Galaxy is fine without synthetics.

.

[S.A.K]

Phatose wrote...

They absolutely need fuel of some kind. Conservation of energy doesn't stop applying just cause they're synthetic. And they need servers, active hardware for the Geth software to run on, and they need it in sufficient quantity that they won't be effectively lobotomized by lack of active units.

They've got needs just as much as any organic. And unlike organics, small populations aren't an option because of how the Geth operate.

Might as well claim that if humans actually wanted peace, they should've just left Earth to the Reapers and flew into deep space.

News flash! Billions of humans still live on Earth...

Heretics flew away from Rannoch just fine. I don't see how that's so hard or how makes a good excuse for holding Rannoch.