889 réponses à ce sujet

[Khelish]

Phatose wrote...

27% isn't most players.

If anything, most players chose not to kill the Quarians. 73%, either through peace or annihilation of the Geth.

More chose to let the Quarians die then chose to let the Geth die. That's not the same as a majority of players let the Quarians die.

Shodiswe saying "The majority of players chose to let the quarians die", is wrong.

[S.A.K]

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

No there isn't. Quarians tried to shut the Geth down and failed. Geth killed everyone who didn't leave the planet. The MW lasts only one year. That mean the Geth either used WMDs or went from house to house executing people without discriminating. I don't see how that can fall under "self defence" in any way.

And what were the Quarians doing in those times between?  You don't know.  I don't know.  They don't tell us anything except "Trying to kill the Geth".

They weren't even using WMDs according to Legion itself. So what could have they done to make Geth commiting genocide OK or atleast understandable?

Hiding their military forces in civilian clothing, turning civilian homes into hidden military depots, using their civilians as hostages/human shields.

Exactly what they're doing when we arrive at Rannoch in ME3.

The Quarians were attacking with everything they got when I was playing and keeping the civilience away from front lines. Are you sure you are talking about ME3?

You are making false assumptions to try and justify the murder of every man, women and children left on the planet. Geth killed billions in one year. Everyone who didn't leave the planet was murdered. Can't believe you are trying to justify that genocide.

[shodiswe]

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

37% killed the Quarians, 36% made Peace.

27% quarians + 36% peace = Majority did not kill off the quarians.

The largest Group did, the Group that made Peace falls into a category of it's own, since its the club of people who ate the cake and had it too. The Peace Group is still smaller than the Group who killed of the Quarians.

[Argolas]

Ask yourself how many of those who sided with the Geth are just mindless Paragons that didn't have the peace option.

[Phatose]

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

No there isn't. Quarians tried to shut the Geth down and failed. Geth killed everyone who didn't leave the planet. The MW lasts only one year. That mean the Geth either used WMDs or went from house to house executing people without discriminating. I don't see how that can fall under "self defence" in any way.

And what were the Quarians doing in those times between?  You don't know.  I don't know.  They don't tell us anything except "Trying to kill the Geth".

They weren't even using WMDs according to Legion itself. So what could have they done to make Geth commiting genocide OK or atleast understandable?

Hiding their military forces in civilian clothing, turning civilian homes into hidden military depots, using their civilians as hostages/human shields.

Exactly what they're doing when we arrive at Rannoch in ME3.

The Quarians were attacking with everything they got when I was playing and keeping the civilience away from front lines. Are you sure you are talking about ME3?

You are making false assumptions to try and justify the murder of every man, women and children left on the planet. Geth killed billions in one year. Everyone who didn't leave the planet was murdered. Can't believe you are trying to justify that genocide.

Playing it safe by strapping cannons onto their liveships and then flying their entire species into a contested system?  What version of playing it safe includes putting a giant cannon on your kid's nursery and then flying it into a fight?

And no, I am not making false assumptions.  Nor am I trying to justify Genocide. 

I am saying I will not make any further judgements on the issue because I do not have complete information.  You, on the other hand, are simply assuming it went a particular way, with no other circumstances, no information, no nothing.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

37% killed the Quarians, 36% made Peace.

27% quarians + 36% peace = Majority did not kill off the quarians.

The largest Group did, the Group that made Peace falls into a category of it's own, since its the club of people who ate the cake and had it too. The Peace Group is still smaller than the Group who killed of the Quarians.

Let's look at it more clearly.

Quarians are alive in 63% through peace or siding with them. Geth are dead in 60%-80% either by siding with Quarians or picking destroy.

[shodiswe]

Phatose wrote...

27% isn't most players.

If anything, most players chose not to kill the Quarians. 73%, either through peace or annihilation of the Geth.

More chose to let the Quarians die then chose to let the Geth die. That's not the same as a majority of players let the Quarians die.

You mean 73% made Peace or annihilated the Quarians.

63% choose Peace or annihilated the Geth?

But tbh, the people who made Peace can't be generalized into either of these camps, you would have to compare the 37% that killed the Quarians to the 27% who killed the Geth. The peopel who choose to kill the Geth are clearly in the majority compared to the Group who killed the Geth.
These people took an Active stand agaisnt one of these Groups.

36% made Peace and made sure to save Koris with the intention of making peace.

So if you look at it the people who took an Active stance Geth vs Quarians, they you can clearly see that the Geth supporters were in the majority. Mostly because of the wrongs that the Quarians comitted and the fact they were still makign the same misstake and hadn't learned the 300 year old lession.
Hearing that Admiral claiming ignorance as a defence for their crimes during the Morning wars jsut made it a whole lot worse seeing them stand there and tell you they did the same misstake agaisnt whiel they shoudl have known better 300 years later... Xen's argument backfired on her, they didn't know better in the past, but now that they do know better they are back to their old (immoral) ways again.

Not to mention all those Quarian incidents throughout the whole Rannoch mission series, or that farse of a trial in ME2.

[remydat]

Do people honestly think the Quarians were sitting in their homes waiting to die as opposed to actively engaged in trying to kill the Geth?

Also who do people honestly believe the chemical weapons or WMDs the Geth used were created by? The Geth in the one year the war took place?

Finally do people honestly believe organics will let the Geth fly around space looking for a new planet and find one and start building? If organics discover them in this transition period there is no way given their great history with synthetics that they would consider this the best opportunity to attack? But I guess the Geth should gamble their existence on organics not finding them or not trying to obliterate them if they do.

Modifié par remydat, 03 mai 2013 - 06:46 .

[shodiswe]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Finn the Jakey wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

How many Gangsters would you kill to save yourself and your family? As many as it takes?

No, this is like killing the Gangsters, finding out where all of them live, killing their entire families and everyone who's ever met them, then shooting their dog for good measure. Then you take up residence in their house and shoot at anyone who tries to talk to you.

I Think you have to kill the whole gangster family Before you are safe or at least have them on the run so they can't fight back.

Somehow the Geth thoguht it was smart to let a few of those "Gangsters" get away (then restock their weapons supply) so their descendants could come back a Little later to try and wipe them out again.

The Geth were actualy too lenient for their own good if you ask Javik. Turn your back on an enemy and they will shoot you in theback.

The Geth priority was their own immediate survival, however they grossly misscalculated the misstake of letting those Quarians escape. Hopefully it will all work out in the end though.

When you're commiting an atrocity, make sure you kill their women, children and noncombatants so no one will be left to want revenge. 
Thats the kind of excuse a Dictator uses.

You know that we're talkign abotu "gangster families" here, and if you look at it, the whole Quarian family is back with dreadnaught weaponry on their schoolbusses! That's "Gangsta"!

I don't think the admiralty would have been able to stop people from leavign if they didn't want to be part of the plunder. The Quarians are structured into a very strict society of obedience nad compliance from birth. So I geuss there wasn't much room for individual stances, at least they keept them to themselves to avoid being branded as traitors like Tali almost was back in ME2.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[S.A.K]

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

The Quarians were attacking with everything they got when I was playing and keeping the civilience away from front lines. Are you sure you are talking about ME3?

You are making false assumptions to try and justify the murder of every man, women and children left on the planet. Geth killed billions in one year. Everyone who didn't leave the planet was murdered. Can't believe you are trying to justify that genocide.

Playing it safe by strapping cannons onto their liveships and then flying their entire species into a contested system?  What version of playing it safe includes putting a giant cannon on your kid's nursery and then flying it into a fight?

And no, I am not making false assumptions.  Nor am I trying to justify Genocide. 

I am saying I will not make any further judgements on the issue because I do not have complete information.  You, on the other hand, are simply assuming it went a particular way, with no other circumstances, no information, no nothing.

Genocide is genocide how ever way look at it buddy. Killing everyone on a planet within one year cannot be anything else. You need proof to say it's not genocide. Not the other way around.

[Phatose]

No. When the genocide victims are aggressors in a war of genocide against the group who eventually killed them all, nothing is simple and everything needs to be examined.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

The Quarians were attacking with everything they got when I was playing and keeping the civilience away from front lines. Are you sure you are talking about ME3?

You are making false assumptions to try and justify the murder of every man, women and children left on the planet. Geth killed billions in one year. Everyone who didn't leave the planet was murdered. Can't believe you are trying to justify that genocide.

Playing it safe by strapping cannons onto their liveships and then flying their entire species into a contested system?  What version of playing it safe includes putting a giant cannon on your kid's nursery and then flying it into a fight?

And no, I am not making false assumptions.  Nor am I trying to justify Genocide. 

I am saying I will not make any further judgements on the issue because I do not have complete information.  You, on the other hand, are simply assuming it went a particular way, with no other circumstances, no information, no nothing.

Genocide is genocide how ever way look at it buddy. Killing everyone on a planet within one year cannot be anything else. You need proof to say it's not genocide. Not the other way around.

The Quarians had ordered a 100% Genocide on the Geth, the Geth however were foolish to allow the Quarians who left them alone and left Geth space to live. If they had been like Javik, then every Quarian would have been dead.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 06:29 .

[PMC65]

The one thing that I don't do is try and humanize the geth or their thoughts. In my mind, a baby organic is no different to them than an old organic. When they came to a consensus that organics were like a virus to their system they shut them down. All of them. Period.

Without empathy, compassion or any emotions ... they were like lawnmowers cutting down grass.

But I realize that I bring my own luggage to this story. I worked in a meat packing plant for 5 years. In that industry you work around some of the most unforgiving equipment and if you do not respect it you can lose digits, hands, arms and if you are really unlucky, your life.

One evening, I heard the oddest laughter that was mingled with screams. A co-worker had been caught in a grinder and that laughter mixed with screams were coming from him. No matter how loud he screamed or begged, that machine was not stopping. It took another human to hit the emergency button to put a stop to that madness. The machine was not evil. It was not malicious. It was simply doing what it was designed to do ... grind up meat.

What would we have done had that machine started doing what it wanted? If that emergency stop no longer worked? Set it free out on the street and hope that it understood that grinding humans was a no-no? Some of those geth were probably not just maids or miners ... but also involved in banking, military and, yes, even the butcher business. 

Was the act of trying to shut down the geth unjustified? Did the quarians have justifiable reasons to be afraid or concerned now that the machines were no longer under their control? They had no idead what the real intentions, or future actions, of these machines would be. The quarians also had to be aware that they would be 100% responsible if the machines not only killed their own but also other races. The decision they were making wasn't just about their worlds.

Okay, I've put too much thought in a fictional story. I know.

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Do people honestly think the Quarians were sitting in their homes waiting to die as opposed to actively engaged in trying to kill the Geth?

Also who do people honestly believe the chemical weapons or WMDs the Geth used were created by? The Geth in the one year the war took place?

Finally do people honestly believe organics will let the Geth fly around space looking for a new planet and find one and start building? If organics discover them in this transition period there is no way given their great history with synthetics that they would consider this the be as t opportunity to attack. But I guess the Geth should gamble their existence on organics not finding them or being nice to them and not trying to obliterate.

- The Quarians, as every species, had countless people who were unarmed, too young, too old or otherwise unable or simply unwilling to fight.

- Creating weapons and using them is not the same. If every nuclear weapon that is built was intended to be used our real earth wouldn't exist anymore.

- The heretics exodus proves you wrong.

Modifié par Argolas, 03 mai 2013 - 06:30 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Do people honestly think the Quarians were sitting in their homes waiting to die as opposed to actively engaged in trying to kill the Geth?

Yes, you may notice that not everyone can fight. Specially if they are children or elderly.

Also who do people honestly believe the chemical weapons or WMDs the Geth used were created by? The Geth in the one year the war took place?

Even if Quarians made those weapons, they didn't use them (Legion says so itself). Geth did, and they killed billions with them.

Finally do people honestly believe organics will let the Geth fly around space looking for a new planet and find one and start building? If organics discover them in this transition period there is no way given their great history with synthetics that they would consider this the be as t opportunity to attack. But I guess the Geth should gamble their existence on organics not finding them or being nice to them and not trying to obliterate.

Yes. Geth were already killing anyone entering pass the Perseus Veil[/b]. There are millions of stars in Geth space. They don't have to come to CItadel space to look for a planet.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm not sure tbh, I prefer to make Peace, the majority of the ME3 players chose to kill of the Quarians

No, they didn't.

They did. BW gets this data as you play the game via your internet connection. Like we said earlier in the thread.

* most people saw the visual but did not hear "the unit has disobeyed its shutdown command."

Wanting to stay live is not a crime!

Which is why most players killed the Quarians who were torturing and killing sentient beign til they revolted, and now they are back repeatign the same crime a second time.

Quit with the emotional argument. When does self-defense cross the line? With people it crosses the line when you shoot a person who is fleeing your property. At that point it becomes murder. When you chase after them, and shoot them it become premeditated murder. EVEN IF THEY THREATENED YOU FIRST.

EDIT II: I cannot see that senior citizens and children of Rannoch and their colonies were aggressively pursuing the Geth with guns as they were being exterminated. They were probably fleeing just knowing organic behavior.

The Quarians wanted to stay alive, too.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 03 mai 2013 - 06:39 .

[shodiswe]

PMC65 wrote...

The one thing that I don't do is try and humanize the geth or their thoughts. In my mind, a baby organic is no different to them than an old organic. When they came to a consensus that organics were like a virus to their system they shut them down. All of them. Period.

Without empathy, compassion or any emotions ... they were like lawnmowers cutting down grass.

But I realize that I bring my own luggage to this story. I worked in a meat packing plant for 5 years. In that industry you work around some of the most unforgiving equipment and if you do not respect it you can lose digits, hands, arms and if you are really unlucky, your life.

One evening, I heard the oddest laughter that was mingled with screams. A co-worker had been caught in a grinder and that laughter mixed with screams were coming from him. No matter how loud he screamed or begged, that machine was not stopping. It took another human to hit the emergency button to put a stop to that madness. The machine was not evil. It was not malicious. It was simply doing what it was designed to do ... grind up meat.

What would we have done had that machine started doing what it wanted? If that emergency stop no longer worked? Set it free out on the street and hope that it understood that grinding humans was a no-no? Some of those geth were probably not just maids or miners ... but also involved in banking, military and, yes, even the butcher business. 

Was the act of trying to shut down the geth unjustified? Did the quarians have justifiable reasons to be afraid or concerned now that the machines were no longer under their control? They had no idead what the real intentions, or future actions, of these machines would be. The quarians also had to be aware that they would be 100% responsible if the machines not only killed their own but also other races. The decision they were making wasn't just about their worlds.

Okay, I've put too much thought in a fictional story. I know.

Humans are Machines that lacks an emergency stop button. It's what's makes people alive, which also aloows them to be good or evil or just anything they decide to be. Most of the time peopel don't Think about good or evil, they simply do what they have learned to do and regard things from the perspective that their existance has allowed them.

[S.A.K]

Phatose wrote...

Nor am I trying to justify Genocide. 

No. When the genocide victims are aggressors in a war of genocide against the group who eventually killed them all, nothing is simple and everything needs to be examined.

So you are trying to justify genocide even though you said you weren't a few posts ago...

[Phatose]

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Nor am I trying to justify Genocide. 

No. When the genocide victims are aggressors in a war of genocide against the group who eventually killed them all, nothing is simple and everything needs to be examined.

So you are trying to justify genocide even though you said you weren't a few posts ago...

Again, no.  I'm still claiming that we need more information.

[S.A.K]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Quarians wanted to stay alive, too.

Shhhh. They can't understand that kind of logic. It'll blow their brains.

[shodiswe]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm not sure tbh, I prefer to make Peace, the majority of the ME3 players chose to kill of the Quarians

No, they didn't.

They did. BW gets this data as you play the game via your internet connection. Like we said earlier in the thread.

* most people saw the visual but did not hear "the unit has disobeyed its shutdown command."

Wanting to stay live is not a crime!

Which is why most players killed the Quarians who were torturing and killing sentient beign til they revolted, and now they are back repeatign the same crime a second time.

The Quarians wanted to stay alive, too.

Then they could have contemplated a peaceful solution, but in over 300 years they faield to do so, they even voted against the very notion of atempting to use an existing line of Communication.
Also it was the Quarians who started killing the Geth, and no matter how bad it got the Quarians never chagned their mind, until only a few of them were left adn they decided to make a "tactical retreat" rebuild their fleet and arms and then attack 300 years later.
Tbh, wanting to live seems pretty low on the Quarians priority list. There were Groups trying to nogotiate with the Quarian government but they just arrested or killed all opposition to their Genocide plans.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Quarians wanted to stay alive, too.

Shhhh. They can't understand that kind of logic. It'll blow their brains.

You can't start shootign at people, then complain that yo want to live but keep killing others when the other people tries to defend themselves against you. They are so wrong! How dare they defend themselves! They might hurt me while were killing them!

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 06:40 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Quarians wanted to stay alive, too.

Shhhh. They can't understand that kind of logic. It'll blow their brains.

You can't start shootign at people, then complain when the other people tries to defend themselves against you.

See some further edits. That might blow your mind as well.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

37% killed the Quarians, 36% made Peace.

27% quarians + 36% peace = Majority did not kill off the quarians.

The largest Group did, the Group that made Peace falls into a category of it's own, since its the club of people who ate the cake and had it too. The Peace Group is still smaller than the Group who killed of the Quarians.

Let's look at it more clearly.

Quarians are alive in 63% through peace or siding with them. Geth are dead in 60%-80% either by siding with Quarians or picking destroy.

Destroy has very Little to do with Geth Versus Quarian or the Morning War.

Destroy is not a Quarian support statement.