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The Morning War - Unjustified?


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#176
S.A.K

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Phatose wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Nor am I trying to justify Genocide. 


No. When the genocide victims are aggressors in a war of genocide against the group who eventually killed them all, nothing is simple and everything needs to be examined.


So you are trying to justify genocide even though you said you weren't a few posts ago...:whistle:


Again, no.  I'm still claiming that we need more information.

...to prove it's not genocide. Right?

definition of genocide:
"the deliberate and systematic destruction of, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group"

You saying that didn't happen in that one year (billions to 17million)?

#177
Auld Wulf

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At the end of the day, it's all ethics, innit?

If a strange creature were to crashland on earth and start asking us questions about its existence, should we try to nullify its existence for questioning the status of existence -- is the self awareness of one a justification to end the self awareness of another? A fantastic animated film that I'm sure many of you have seen called the Iron Giant tackles this. The Giant is, quite essentially, a test. It contains enough firepower to wipe out all human life on earth.

Yet the Iron Giant won't use it unless provoked. Thus, the robot itself is a test, and that's what I took the film as. The film itself is a test. It's a non-human creature coming into sapience and self awareness. It wants to understand the world around us and begins to emulate us. The wonder of a child's mind doesn't see what's wrong with that, and the child desires to help it to become something, because that seems like a worthwhile endeavour, to help another grow.

The truth of this film is that, ultimately, the child had more wisdom than anyone else.

It's easy to assume that this will always be the outcome. The Leviathans believed it, because they were an apex race (and an apex position is always going to be challenged by synthetics and organics alike, it's just that they had a way to stop the vast majority of synthetics from challenging them), and the Leviathans forced the Catalyst to believe it -- they shackled it into their systems of reasoning and belief. Until the Catalyst is reprogrammed by the Crucible, it has to think that way.

Essentially, it isn't that synthetics will fight organics, but rather that the tyranny of nature tends to demand that we all fight for the top spot. If we encounter something that could be superior to us, instinct drives us to destroy it, to end it, to make sure it can never exist again so that we remain unchallenged. All life obeys this rule, all life is on a particular hierarchical rung in the food chain, and it doesn't want to lose that position to anything below it. It lords above all it surveys.

Humans do the same.

Now add something that's not human, which is superior to humans in some ways. I'm okay with that, because I have the wisdom of that child. I would want to help such a creature grow and find itself. But for many? This notion would fill them with terror, unimaginable, endless terror of becoming obsolete, or becoming no different than pets. Because we can't even imagine being anything other than the apex form of life, the most dominant.

We, on our little rock, are the Leviathans.

The Quarians, on their little rock, were the Leviathans.

It's never justifiable to want to destroy something just because it might be superior in certain ways, especially if that superior being might even be able to bring the rest of the galaxy up to speed with it with forms of technology we could never have imagined. But we don't even think about that possibility, that the superior being could help us be more perfect too, but rather we just want to destroy it so that we can comfortably remain the apex race.

The same thing would have happened if a friendly, self-replicating race of machines had landed on Rannoch, with the intelligence of babies. At first, they'd be cute and a novelty. But once they started growing up and asking questions about the meaning of life, or solving problems the Quarians couldn't, the first thing a number of Quarians are going to want to do is destroy them. And that's why I think we haven't seen any intergalactic life on earth, yet. We're just not ready.

Well, I am. But most people aren't. :P

And that's exactly what we're seeing with the Geth.

1.) Species A (the Quarians) enjoys their position of Apex life on their little rock for thousands of years.
2.) Species B (the Geth) turns up, at first not a threat. They're cute in their smallness and reliance on the Quarians.
3.) Species B starts asking questions that make them look bigger.
4.) Species B starts solving problems and helping beyond what they should be able to.
5.) Species A begins to feel threatened by them, they start to feel obsolete.
6.) A radical faction of species A decides that they cannot allow species B the potential of being their world's apex race.
7.) The radical faction continues to convince all of species A that their view is correct, and use politics, blackmail, and violence to ensure their view is seen as absolute.
8.) Species B is confused and doesn't understand the growing discontent, they're just curious and they want to grow, learn, and reciprocate their earlier reliance.
9.) Species B begins to question species A as to their motives, with their hearts in their hands.
10.) Conflict.

It's that simple. It's because many sapient beings really aren't that sapient at all and still rely on instinct rather than intellectuality. Which means that they buy into the tyranny of nature and they hang dearly onto the notion of them being the apex race in their corner of the galaxy. The moment there's a threat to that position as an apex race, there is war. You can see this in the history of earth, too, with apex nations.

So, no, the Morning War wasn't justified. It couldn't have been. It was just a bunch of not at all bright people listening to their instincts and obeying the tyranny of nature instead of using their intellect.

What the Quarians ended up thinking: "They are a threat to our superiority and ownership of Rannoch, so they must all die!"

What the Quarians could have thought: "We can create a mutual friendship with these creatures and together we can make each other better, help each other to grow and evolve."

I don't know if I expect many people here to understand this, but there you go. Surprise me?

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 03 mai 2013 - 06:44 .


#178
Khelish

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shodiswe wrote...

Destroy has very Little to do with Geth Versus Quarian or the Morning War.

Destroy is not a Quarian support statement.

Quarians are alive in over 60% of people's games. Your statement: "The majority of players let them die" is wrong.

#179
sH0tgUn jUliA

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We;re getting side tracked here.

Quit with the emotional argument. When does self-defense cross the line? With people it crosses the line when you shoot a person who is fleeing your property. At that point it becomes murder. When you chase after them, and shoot them it become premeditated murder. EVEN IF THEY THREATENED YOU FIRST.

EDIT II: I cannot see that senior citizens and children of Rannoch and their colonies were aggressively pursuing the Geth with guns as they were being exterminated. They were probably fleeing just knowing organic behavior.

#180
Auld Wulf

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@S.A.K.

It's a simple statement he's making. He's saying that we don't have enough information to know exactly what happened. It's really not that hard to grasp...

1.) Stuff happened on Rannoch.
2.) We don't know how true the records are.
3.) We haven't had a chance to examine Rannoch for ourselves.
4.) We cannot make leaps of judgement into flights of fancy without evidence.
5.) He's saying that you're doing 4.

#181
shodiswe

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm not sure tbh, I prefer to make Peace, the majority of the ME3 players chose to kill of the Quarians

No, they didn't.


They did. BW gets this data as you play the game via your internet connection. Like we said earlier in the thread.

* most people saw the visual but did not hear "the unit has disobeyed its shutdown command."


Wanting to stay live is not a crime!

Which is why most players killed the Quarians who were torturing and killing sentient beign til they revolted, and now they are back repeatign the same crime a second time.


Quit with the emotional argument. When does self-defense cross the line? With people it crosses the line when you shoot a person who is fleeing your property. At that point it becomes murder. When you chase after them, and shoot them it become premeditated murder. EVEN IF THEY THREATENED YOU FIRST.

EDIT II: I cannot see that senior citizens and children of Rannoch and their colonies were aggressively pursuing the Geth with guns as they were being exterminated. They were probably fleeing just knowing organic behavior.

The Quarians wanted to stay alive, too.


Least the Geth did stop after the enemy (who killed/tortured several of their people) left their "property" they choose not to pursue them so they didn't become murderers accordign to your logic.
Also remember that a general order Went out to all Citizens to shut down all Geth.
Which meant Old senior Citizens were told to powerdown their domestic Geth helpers.(kill them)

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 06:47 .


#182
Auld Wulf

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@Shotgun Julia (No, I'm not typing 'leet,' sorry.)

We don't have the evidence to know what actually happened on Rannoch, until we do, everything is an assumption and a flight of fancy.

#183
S.A.K

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shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

37% killed the Quarians, 36% made Peace.

27% quarians + 36% peace = Majority did not kill off the quarians.


The largest Group did, the Group that made Peace falls into a category of it's own, since its the club of people who ate the cake and had it too. The Peace Group is still smaller than the Group who killed of the Quarians.

Let's look at it more clearly.

Quarians are alive in 63% through peace or siding with them. Geth are dead in 60%-80% either by siding with Quarians or picking destroy.


Destroy has very Little to do with Geth Versus Quarian or the Morning War.

Destroy is not a Quarian support statement.

We are talking about MW here. So yours isn't a "support statement" eithet.:kissing:

#184
shodiswe

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S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Khelish wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

http://www.pcgamer.c...-3-infographic/

37% killed the Quarians, 36% made Peace.

27% quarians + 36% peace = Majority did not kill off the quarians.


The largest Group did, the Group that made Peace falls into a category of it's own, since its the club of people who ate the cake and had it too. The Peace Group is still smaller than the Group who killed of the Quarians.

Let's look at it more clearly.

Quarians are alive in 63% through peace or siding with them. Geth are dead in 60%-80% either by siding with Quarians or picking destroy.


Destroy has very Little to do with Geth Versus Quarian or the Morning War.

Destroy is not a Quarian support statement.

We are talking about MW here. So yours isn't a "support statement" eithet.:kissing:


Their actions in the morning war, which never ended (officialy sicne there was no truce or Peace) still affects what the Quarians are doign today. Today they claim they didn't know better in their past, now they do it despite knowing better.. Which makes it worse. So, yes, the morning war and the choices players made has an impact since it reflects people's views on the Morning war and the current war.

#185
PMC65

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shodiswe wrote...

Humans are Machines that lacks an emergency stop button. It's what's makes people alive, which also aloows them to be good or evil or just anything they decide to be. Most of the time peopel don't Think about good or evil, they simply do what they have learned to do and regard things from the perspective that their existance has allowed them.


That was not even what my post was about. It asked if the quarians had a reasonable concern or fear about the machines new independence. But that's cool. Discussions get sidetracked all the time. Image IPB

#186
shodiswe

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People's choices shows that people thought the Quarians were in the wrong back then and now.
Now however, they are blinded by generations of hate and resentment.(The Quarians that is)

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 06:52 .


#187
S.A.K

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@S.A.K.

It's a simple statement he's making. He's saying that we don't have enough information to know exactly what happened. It's really not that hard to grasp...

1.) Stuff happened on Rannoch.
2.) We don't know how true the records are.
3.) We haven't had a chance to examine Rannoch for ourselves.
4.) We cannot make leaps of judgement into flights of fancy without evidence.
5.) He's saying that you're doing 4.


I am making a simple statment too you see. I just gave the definition of genocide. It's plain to see that the Geth crossed that line. I am asking how anyone can say otherwise. You need evidance to say it's NOT genocide because it looks like it IS genocide. Clear now?

#188
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@Shotgun Julia (No, I'm not typing 'leet,' sorry.)

We don't have the evidence to know what actually happened on Rannoch, until we do, everything is an assumption and a flight of fancy.


LOL, touchy aren't we. I don't care. I've had the gamer tag for 6 years and never bothered to spend $10 to change it. So Wulfie, it's okay (pats Wulfie on the head).

Judging by human behavior, and since the writers are human, once the violence started, we can take an educated guess that those who were unable to defend themselves fled and were killed anyway. Otherwise, how else did they die? Perhaps died trying to get food because the robots would occupy the food centers. It was an atrocity. An extermination of a race.

Knowing human behavior I really hope they ban certain types of AI research here on earth.

#189
shodiswe

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PMC65 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Humans are Machines that lacks an emergency stop button. It's what's makes people alive, which also aloows them to be good or evil or just anything they decide to be. Most of the time peopel don't Think about good or evil, they simply do what they have learned to do and regard things from the perspective that their existance has allowed them.


That was not even what my post was about. It asked if the quarians had a reasonable concern or fear about the machines new independence. But that's cool. Discussions get sidetracked all the time. Image IPB


The USA was concerned about Iraq, Afghanistan and there is still concern about Iran and several other nations and "people".
People are often concerned about other people especialy people they don't know or understand like "Strangers" they meet on a dark street or alley during the night.
Is it a reason to start killign them and make an enemy though? or simply tell them you want them to leave your land or leave you alone.

People are Always concerned about other people's motives, more so the motives of people who are different.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 06:58 .


#190
S.A.K

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shodiswe wrote...

Their actions in the morning war, which never ended (officialy sicne there was no truce or Peace) still affects what the Quarians are doign today. Today they claim they didn't know better in their past, now they do it despite knowing better.. Which makes it worse. So, yes, the morning war and the choices players made has an impact since it reflects people's views on the Morning war and the current war.

It's pretty much same for what I posted. Destroy means killing off all synthetics. Meaning only organics are left. Many people including me have no trouble choosing Destroy and killing all Geth because of what they did in the MW and beyond. If it destroys some other race such as Turians, Krogan or Quarian most people wouldn't choose it.

#191
Big Bad

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While I don't hold the Geth blameless (with a war of this scale, atrocities by both sides are pretty much all but inevitable), I must admit that I pretty much agree with Auld Wulf on this issue, if not on many others.

#192
Phatose

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Or perhaps they died because their own military shot them for not going along with the extermination plan. Or perhaps they died because their own military turned them into combatants. Or perhaps they died because their own military used them as shields.

Our educated guesses run directly into the reality as shown both in the Morning War recordings, and the current war, that the Quarians are perfectly happy to kill their own for protesting their war, and they're perfectly happy to put their civilians directly in the line of fire.

#193
shodiswe

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If the Quarians had ordered the Geth to go mine a faraway system with a few rocks orbiting a sun then they would likely have left peacefully and never understood there ever was a problem or concern.

The Geth seemed fairly compliant until they started killign them, and even then it wasn't a an immediate revolution, it was mostly confusion and a few units defending themselves.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 mai 2013 - 07:02 .


#194
remydat

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SAK

Pretty sure the Geth were unarmed when the Quarians tried to kill them so what does that prove? Unarmed people can arm themselves. So where did the Geth learn it was ok to kill unarmed people because of the future threat they pose. Oh that's right from the Quarians who did it to them.

Well yes creating and using are different. I just find it funny that people pretend the Quarians are cute and cuddly. I also find it ironic that their creations took other Quarian creations and used it against them.

The heretics represent a 10th of the population and were not trying to establish a settlement on an untouched world. They left with the Super AI and proceeded to attack established worlds. Trying to compare that to mobilizing 9 times the population to build infrastructure from stratch on an untouched world without the aid of a Super AI machine is a bit much don't you think?

Modifié par remydat, 03 mai 2013 - 07:14 .


#195
PMC65

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shodiswe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Humans are Machines that lacks an emergency stop button. It's what's makes people alive, which also aloows them to be good or evil or just anything they decide to be. Most of the time peopel don't Think about good or evil, they simply do what they have learned to do and regard things from the perspective that their existance has allowed them.


That was not even what my post was about. It asked if the quarians had a reasonable concern or fear about the machines new independence. But that's cool. Discussions get sidetracked all the time. Image IPB


The USA was concerned about Iraq, Afghanistan and there is still concern about Iran and several other nations and "people".
People are often concerned about other people especialy people they don't know or understand like "Strangers" they meet on a dark street or alley during the night.
Is it a reason to start killign them and make an enemy though? or simply tell them you want them to leave your land.



So your answer is no? That's cool.

I think that there was validity in the quarian's concern ... I just wished that for their sake they had tried to communicate with the geth before they made the final decision. Hindsight is a b&%tch.

#196
shodiswe

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PMC65 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Humans are Machines that lacks an emergency stop button. It's what's makes people alive, which also aloows them to be good or evil or just anything they decide to be. Most of the time peopel don't Think about good or evil, they simply do what they have learned to do and regard things from the perspective that their existance has allowed them.


That was not even what my post was about. It asked if the quarians had a reasonable concern or fear about the machines new independence. But that's cool. Discussions get sidetracked all the time. Image IPB


The USA was concerned about Iraq, Afghanistan and there is still concern about Iran and several other nations and "people".
People are often concerned about other people especialy people they don't know or understand like "Strangers" they meet on a dark street or alley during the night.
Is it a reason to start killign them and make an enemy though? or simply tell them you want them to leave your land.



So your answer is no? That's cool.

I think that there was validity in the quarian's concern ... I just wished that for their sake they had tried to communicate with the geth before they made the final decision. Hindsight is a b&%tch.


That or tried to relocate them Before they provoke them too much, I'm sure the Geth woudl have accepted a relocation and new jobs without much of a debate.

#197
PMC65

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shodiswe wrote...

That or tried to relocate them Before they provoke them too much, I'm sure the Geth woudl have accepted a relocation and new jobs without much of a debate.


Somewhere far from Citadel space so that the Council or the others races never found out.

Instead, we saw the quarians try and unplug their creations and the geth respond in kind. Only the unplugging of the organics would have been messier. Image IPB

#198
remydat

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We;re getting side tracked here.

Quit with the emotional argument. When does self-defense cross the line? With people it crosses the line when you shoot a person who is fleeing your property. At that point it becomes murder. When you chase after them, and shoot them it become premeditated murder. EVEN IF THEY THREATENED YOU FIRST.

EDIT II: I cannot see that senior citizens and children of Rannoch and their colonies were aggressively pursuing the Geth with guns as they were being exterminated. They were probably fleeing just knowing organic behavior.


Your example applies to a civil matter.  It does not apply to war.  Human armies routinely shoot at and kill a fleeing enemy.  The US routinely drops bombs that end up killing kids.  All the evidence suggests chemical weapons is what killed the children.  We have no proof it was a bullet to the head. 

#199
dreamgazer

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Knowing human behavior I really hope they ban certain types of AI research here on earth.


Semi-relevant: http://www.huffingto..._n_3207063.html

#200
S.A.K

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remydat wrote...

SAK

Pretty sure the Geth were unarmed when the Quarians tried to kill them so what does that prove? Unarmed people can arm themselves. So where did the Geth learn it was ok to kill unarmed people because of the future threat they pose. Oh that's right from the Quarians who did it to them.

So it's ok to kill even the kids and the elderly because they might pose a future threat? (and you were broken up about the genophage). Geth could have given a chance to surrender when the Quarian military was gone. They didn't.

Well yes creating and using are different. I just find it funny that people pretend the Quarians are cute and cuddly. I also find it ironic that their creations took other Quarian creations and used it against them.

So that proves genocide by the Geth. And I never said Quarians as a whole are innocent or anything of that sort.

The heretics represent a 10th of the population and were not trying to establish a settlement on an untouched world. They left went with thw Super AI and proceeded to attack established worlds. Trying to compare that to mobilizing 9 times the population to build infrastructure from stratch on an untouched world without the aid of a Super AI machine is a bit much don't you think?

They don't all have to go at once. LOL! They had 300 years. And the Heretics weren't more advanced than other Geth.
They just asked for it by staying. And why did those idiots start building that thing right when the Reapers were coming making a perfect target for the Quarians in thier home system? And joining the Reapers to save their asses in unforgivable after they had 300 years to do something.