8 réponses à ce sujet

[MasterChanger]

I really like the exploration camera style used in NWN2 and the camera used in Dragon Age: Origins (note: this is about the style of the camera rather than about whether it's glitchy). So I have sought out this camera style in other games and found a limitation there. So I thought I'd make a post explaining what I like about this camera style to stimulate some discussion.

I should make it clear that camera style involves preferences and I don't think one camera style is better for all people than another. But being able to identify what you like and find more examples of it is good.

So, I really like the varied applications for the Exploration camera. You can zoom and rotate to get a good angle on the action. You can also get close to your character or surrounding objects to visually examine them. You can look down a dark hallway or quickly command your characters to get to a tactical location in combat.

I contrast this style of camera with what I see as the two opposite extremes. One is the first-person style of RPG and its close cousin, the third-person limited perspective. Some people use "third person" to refer to any style of camera that isn't directly through your controlled character's eyes and some people use this only to refer to the over-the-shoulder view in most MMOs and in the zoomed-out view available in the Elder Scrolls games. The upside of this view is that it can be pretty immersive, as you're getting close to the action. Tactical positioning, though, is almost completely lost. This camera style means that movement is almost always controlled by WASD only.

The other extreme is the top-down fixed view. Some people use the term "Isometric" to refer to this style, but it's not entirely clear whether isometric has to mean that the camera is fixed. This style is used in games like Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and the upcoming Project Eternity. This view allows for some great tactical positioning. Being situated relatively far from the action, though, reduces the immersion factor for me (I know others disagree).

My biggest issue with the top-down fixed view, though, actually relates to visibilty. As someone with very poor vision, this camera style is extremely challenging to use. If something is small, I can't zoom in on it to get a better view. When I played IWD2, I had a really hard time with the super-detailed painted background textures because it was really hard to distinguish foreground from background. Being able to rotate the view could have helped with this.

With the camera style used in NWN and DA:O, I feel like a happy medium has been achieved. In NWN2 I think it does sometimes lead to some buggy behavior, but that's something I'm willing to live with. I like being able to use the camera flexibly to suit my preferences in the moment.

So here are my questions (and the TL;DR version of this post): Does the camera style in NWN2 and DA:O even have a name? Are there other RPGs that use this camera style that you've been able to identify that use this camera style? And for those who do like the other camera styles, feel free to share what you do or don't like about them.

As a final caveat, none of this relates to the style of gameplay itself--I've tried games of both extreme of camera style that I would and wouldn't try again. The top-down camera, for example, includes RPGs that range in playstyle from IWD to Diablo-style clickfests.

[Tchos]

I'll dip my toe in here.  I'm one who prefers the NWN2's exploration camera above the other modes, as you do, but I don't know what a proper term for it would be.  I can tell you that "isometric" has a very specific definition, and I don't think any 3D game has done a true isometric camera, because it would require a flattened perspective, as we have in the Infinity Engine games.

So mainly I'll just tell you why I like the exploration camera.  To me, the appeal of the NWN2 exploration camera is how it behaves and where it's placed.  It's focused at a slightly different height on the PC than the other cameras, and that's where it's most comfortable to me.  The speed of zooming in and out is comfortable, and I like having the camera view locked to the controlled PC so that it moves along with it.

It's a flexible camera for both long and tight views, and if I want to get in really close, so close that my PC gets in the way, I can use a mod to toggle my PC to be temporarily invisible so I get an unobstructed view.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

For the exploration mode, the camera is still centered on the PC, but the angle of the camera doesn't change when the PC changes direction. It actually reminds me of the original 3D camera in Mario64. There, too, the camera always stayed centered on the PC, but you had a thumb stick to continuously move the camera for the best angle.

I think the need for a separate camera control is important. In NWN2, it works well because you actually spend a lot of time watching your PC execute commands queued up by your mouse -- in lots of ways, the camera follows your mouse cursor around more than your PC (anybody remember Black and White?).

For IL-2, a flight sim, I broke down and bought a TrackIR headset to control the camera with my head. It's awesome, I wish it'd work for NWN2, and any other game with a free-floating camera. Only problem is that my beer hand gets in the way of the sensor.

[MasterChanger]

Tchos wrote...

I'll dip my toe in here.  I'm one who prefers the NWN2's exploration camera above the other modes, as you do, but I don't know what a proper term for it would be.  I can tell you that "isometric" has a very specific definition, and I don't think any 3D game has done a true isometric camera, because it would require a flattened perspective, as we have in the Infinity Engine games.

Yeah, I know that isometric refers to a certain way of doing the projection on to a 2D surface like your screen. I've come across people using it more generally, but I think the "top-down fixed camera" way of talking about it probably fits best.

For NWN2's exploration camera, the best way I've thought of to sum it up is something like "3D top-down". Unfortunately, no one else really seems to use that term, so it certainly doesn't help find other games that do similar things!

[Tchos]

I've seen people using it generally, too.

Lugaid, that's another thing I like about the exploration camera -- how it doesn't rotate around to face the direction the PC's facing. That's what drove me away from character mode, I think.

[kevL]

Character mode's ideal for the overland map. unfortunately it seems to require 'toggling in' toggleoverlandcamera from the console (the up arrow brings back the command)

Exploration mode for exploring.

& Strategy mode for battles.

[kevL]

This link should clear up what isometric, or more likely axonometric, projection is like:

Limitations_of_axonometric_projection

- no perspective, no vanishing point, objects don't get larger as the camera approaches them.


The thing about the Exploration camera is that it swivels. It's not necessarily "top-down" either. how 'bout: 3rd person 3D swivel cam

[MasterChanger]

Unfortunately, it seems like another game which occupied some of this middle ground in terms of perspective has gotten followed by a successor which totally trashed it. I played The Witcher and really enjoyed it. While it was more action-oriented than NWN or DA:O, the zoomed-out perspective allowed you to easily click on your foes from far away to be able to run up and engage them.

In contrast, I recently started The Witcher 2 and I can't deal with the in-your-face camera style at all. I guess it's supposed to be grittier or something. Whereas in TW you didn't need to button-mash, you just needed good attack timing, TW2 is a total button-masher. And with the up-close perspective, Geralt will sometimes respond to a click by jumping and attacking an enemy that I (the player) didn't even know was there because I couldn't see it.

Given that CD Projekt sees itself as innovative (and on things like DRM, it certainly is refreshing) I would have hoped that their sequel wouldn't have gravitated toward the kind of perspective that  so many other games are taking.

Oh, and I could very much do without the misogyny in their games, too, but that's a whole different topic.

[nicethugbert]

My fav third person camera is the DA:O camera. It needs 2 things to be perfect for me:
1) More zoom angles. The change from low angle zoom set to the high angle zoom is too abrupt.
2) The angle needs to follow the terrain so when a character goes up a hill the camera is not aimed at his feat.