168 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahms]

TIM makes good arguments for control. During the Cronos station mission, for example, he points out EDI's control of Dr. Eva's body as something done out of necessity and how it was advantageous.

I understand the need for control. Look in our actual world: technological progress and advancement is the result of mastering, understanding and controlling our environment. Lives become better as a result of this control. Medicine, information technology, engineering. All of these advancements have improved the quality of life and extended the average lifespan.

Think of the benefits of integrating Reaper technology in the ME universe for society. It would give a better understanding of the nature of consciousness and how it works, for one thing. The obvious example is through indoctrination. It would also extend the lifespan of a person. It could make humans live potentially indefinitely.

Their methods are extreme, but not beyond reason or below humanity. Abhorrent and horrific, but I do believe Cerberus' ends justify the means.

If siding with Cerberus was an option, my main Shep would help TIM.

[In Exile]

Their methods are idiotic. They're dealing with mind control technology that they don't understand and are trying to reverse engineer. The idea that you can create some kind of machine that can control the Reapers, in a few months/years during the middle of their genocidal war march, is completely insane.

Their methods involved forcibly converting humans into husks and trying to control them. Ignoring how completely morally bankrupt it is, it's beyond belief how stupid it is as an actual plan. There's no reason to believe that controlling a husk is anything like controlling a reaper, or that the kind of indoctrination signal used by reapers to capture organics is at all like what it would take to control a reaper - if that were even possible.

[David7204]

It seems like pretty much every tactic discussed on the BSN is either an instant-win miracle that would easily defeat the Reapers in 5 minutes if the allied forces used it more heavily, or the stupidest thing ever, ever.

Modifié par David7204, 05 mai 2013 - 01:02 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Illusive Man's plan to build Reaper technology into his head, and then control the Reapers using his head, was really dumb. I don't care what he's got in there; it will not work as well as the entire Reaper fleet cooperating. Plus, he won't live forever.

Taking control of the Reaper bodies without having to unleash massive destruction across the galaxy has some moderate appeal. Mainly in that Reaper technology is obscenely advanced, and they could be reverse-engineered to understand and apply that technology to other things.

Cerberus, no. When a man tries to see far into the distance, what's the first thing he does? He narrows his eyes. It's exactly their philosophy that their end will justify any means that's the problem. That's a recipe for finding newer and better means as time goes on, so long as the end hasn't been achieved. We need to melt Los Angeles into a pool of goop; well, them's the breaks. We're fighting for the greater good. (A good greater than millions of people being alive, anyway.)

[In Exile]

David7204 wrote...

It seems like pretty much every tactic discussed on the BSN is either an instant-win miracle that would easily defeat the Reapers in 5 minutes if the allied forces used it more heavily, or the stupidest thing ever, ever.

What are the things people tout as instant win miracles?

[Armass81]

All TIM would have done with the reapers is to create a galactic fascist state, with himself as a immortal god like catalyst on the top, who no one could have challenged. And make no mistake, he would have ended up dominating his own race as well, as human dictators have shown, they havent got mercy even on their own kind, who they treat worse than animals.

Of course he could have never done that as the catalyst was already pulling his strings.

Modifié par Armass81, 05 mai 2013 - 01:20 .

[David7204]

Boy, all kinds of things.

Getting nice and close to the Reapers so you can shoot them without them shooting you.
Staying far away from the Reapers so you can shoot them without them shooting you.
Building a bunch of the super-ultra-guns like the one on Klendagon.
'Graphite-aluminum rockets'...just heard that one a couple of days ago.
Nukes.
Space EMPs.
Blowing up Mass Relays. That's a big one.

Modifié par David7204, 05 mai 2013 - 01:16 .

[Chashan]

Armass81 wrote...

All TIM would have done with the reapers is to create a galactic fascist state, with himself as a immortal god like catalyst on the top, who no one could have challenged.

Which of course could not happen with another mortal being electrocuted in his stead, eh?

As for the OP, finishing Sanctuary first time around made me think: given the possibility of wresting control away effectively from Reap-hurr forces, which could end up being a game-changer towards the overall war-effort...just how significant is the scale of lives lost in the process when a galaxy of billions is thus saved?

BW could have gone somewhere with that, had they not turned TIM into the megalomanical dupe he was made to be and declared as at the very end. As is, yeah, not exactly sad that I do not have to see TIM's goal being vindicated again on my screen.

[Nole]

I really would have loved to have the option to join TIM.

[In Exile]

David7204 wrote...

Boy, all kinds of things.

Getting nice and close to the Reapers so you can shoot them without them shooting you.
Staying far away from the Reapers so you can shoot them without them shooting you.
Building a bunch of the super-ultra-guns like the one on Klendagon.
'Graphite-aluminum rockets'...just heard that one a couple of days ago.
Nukes.
Space EMPs.
Blowing up Mass Relays. That's a big one.

Yeah, I'd also file those under varying degrees of stupid. Although the underlined plans are my favourite. On the level of "we fight or we die". 

[TheRealJayDee]

Armass81 wrote...

All TIM would have done with the reapers is to create a galactic fascist state, with himself as a immortal god like catalyst on the top, who no one could have challenged. And make no mistake, he would have ended up dominating his own race as well, as human dictators have shown, they havent got mercy even on their own kind, who they treat worse than animals.

This delightful and likely accurate description of a TIM/Control scenario is actually tempting me to yet play ME3 with my human supremacist Shep - cause that would end exactly this way. I haven't played him because of the pro-Alliance/anti-Cerberus stance every Shep is forced into, but damn, the ending would be so much fun with him!

[In Exile]

Chashan wrote...
As for the OP, finishing Sanctuary first time around made me think: given the possibility of wresting control away effectively from Reap-hurr forces, which could end up being a game-changer towards the overall war-effort...just how significant is the scale of lives lost in the process when a galaxy of billions is thus saved?

Well, lives are the most valuable thing you have in a war, potentially. You need those refugees to replenish your military force as the engagement drags on, and you certainly need them to rebuild your society once the war actually ends. It's also an open-ended cost. 

[Bardox9]

TIM was worked over long before Cerberus was founded. Mass Effect: Evolution shows how Jack Harper goes from an alliance black ops xenophobe to founding Cerberus and becomes The Illusive Man.

He was never a benevolent force. He has been trying to kill and exploit as many aliens as he could get away with his entire adult life. That was before the Reaper indoctrination began. That just made him more dangerous.

If siding with Cerberus was an option, my main Shep would have gotten a face to face with TIM and created a singularity inside his skull.

Modifié par Bardox9, 05 mai 2013 - 01:56 .

[LucasShark]

Be sympathetic for them going from grey-area villains who honestly had some points and axes to grind with the council and so forth, and being turned into basically HYDRA by ME3, complete with their very own HYDRA agents.

[Saito404]

OP, have you played side missions in ME1? I guess no.

[Ahms]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Illusive Man's plan to build Reaper
technology into his head, and then control the Reapers using his head,
was really dumb. I don't care what he's got in there; it will not work
as well as the entire Reaper fleet cooperating. Plus, he won't live
forever.

Taking control of the Reaper bodies without having to
unleash massive destruction across the galaxy has some moderate appeal.
Mainly in that Reaper technology is obscenely advanced, and they could
be reverse-engineered to understand and apply that technology to other
things.

Cerberus, no. When a man tries to see far into the
distance, what's the first thing he does? He narrows his eyes. It's
exactly their philosophy that their end will justify any means that's
the problem. That's a recipe for finding newer and better means as time
goes on, so long as the end hasn't been achieved. We need to melt Los
Angeles into a pool of goop; well, them's the breaks. We're fighting for
the greater good. (A good greater than millions of people being alive,
anyway.)

The metaphor is incorrect, since seeing several
moves ahead of you means you can see the bigger picture. Seeing one
piece of that picture means you may easily the wrong decision. Sometimes
it's correct to sacrifice some so that others may live, if it means all
will die otherwise.

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Cerberus doesn't care about the
galaxy at large, they would use the Reapers to enslave the other races
for humanity's benefit. TIM would effectively become
Space-Hitler.

Human-centric =/= anti-alien. There is no
good reason to think that Cerberus would attempt to subjugate and
enslave all alien races. I think you're conflating the idea of
controlling the Reapers and using their technology to benefit humanity
with controlling all other alien races. One does not necessarily follow the other.

[Steelcan]

Me as well OP.

[DeathScepter]

i do feel sympathetic towards T.I.M. and Cerberus. After I replayed ME1 several times, the more I resented the Council and Aliens in general

[Astartes Marine]

I sympathize with them, to a point.

I support a stronger humanity, unified with purpose and not simply bowing to the Council.
I support more unorthodox expansions into tech/weapons/ship/propulsion/medical research and design.

However...
I do not support experimenting on human populations.
I do not support "implanting" of Reaper tech among human forces.
I do not support the idea of humanity dominating other races.

Modifié par Astartes Marine, 05 mai 2013 - 02:56 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Illusive Man doesn't see the board several moves ahead of his current move, though. He doesn't even seem to see his current move, most of the time. The Collector ship mission is particularly bone-headed; there's nothing to gain from that little excursion, but he stands to lose Shepard, in whom he has invested a significant amount of time, money and manpower, as well as two of his other most valuable operatives, and potentially a very expensive ship and unique AI. Like Shepard says, if they were after an IFF, it would have been better to tell Shepard that so that he can look for one.

[Bardox9]

The collector ship mission is defendable. The method TIM used to get Shepard to do it is not.They needed to figure out where the omega 4 relay goes and how the collector ship is the only one that ever comes back from it. The not telling Separd before hand and making the case that it had to be done instead of sending  what was then the bulk of Cerberus resources in there blind.

I think the Cerberus idea is good, but when your staff is made out of military rejects, xenophobic morons, idiolectal purists, and homicidal maniacs bent on galactic domination... bad things are going happen. That good idea will become warp and twisted into a radical fundamentalist group that makes itself feel better by convincing themselves that " This is for the greater good. I am protecting humanity!"

Modifié par Bardox9, 05 mai 2013 - 03:28 .

[Kataphrut94]

I admire the Illusive Man's ambitions and reasonably impressed by his charisma. However, the organisation he runs is incompetent, founded on xenophobic principles and fails to grasp the notion that the ethical approach to scientific development is not a black and white issue. If you look at Cerberus' implied goals throughout the series, you can see how their actions utterly contradict themselves and makes them come across as unnecessarily cruel and vindictive.

Everything that went wrong at places like Project Overlord, Teltin, Project Lazarus, Sanctuary & the derelict Reaper was a result of their own staff, management or actions failing obviously and spectacularly. Every one of those places started out with promising ideas and discoveries that could have been realised if they hadn't rushed blindly in with no thought for the consequences. Their refusal to collaborate with other organisations or alien groups which could have made beneficial contributions is just further sludge to the delicious sewage cake that is Cerberus.

[KaiserShep]

For me, the Illusive Man was only truly sympathetic in ME2, but even then it evaporated rapidly. By 3, he turned into a gigantic monkey wrench with glowing eyes. As one 110% against the control option, any sympathy I had left was gone the moment he mentioned it. His convictions and beliefs were little more than an inconvenience at that point.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 mai 2013 - 06:44 .