168 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Your arguments that Lazarus is a DEM would carry a lot more weight it if wasn't incredibly obvious that your problem with it is that it leads to Shepard working with Cerberus...which is entirely irrelevant to the quality of Lazarus as a plot device.

Modifié par David7204, 05 mai 2013 - 08:27 .

[robertthebard]

David7204 wrote...

Your arguments that Lazarus is a DEM would carry a lot more weight it if wasn't incredibly obvious that your problem with it is that it leads to Shepard working with Cerberus...which is entirely irrelevant to the quality of Lazarus as a plot device.

Lol, this again.  So what you're saying is, the only reason I see this as a solution to an insoluble problem that only happens once in the ME universe is because I had to work for Cerberus?    Ok... 

[David7204]

Pretty much. It's not a DEM.

[robertthebard]

David7204 wrote...

Pretty much. It's not a DEM.

Really?  So it's not a one off?  Who else was raised with similar technology?
It didn't solve an insoluble problem?  Wasn't Shepard dead?  Oh, wait, somebody else once told me that that couldn't be an insoluble problem because Shepard didn't know Shepard was dead, until Shepard wasn't dead any more...
I guess there's also the insoluble problem of how to get Shepard to work with Cerberus, because quite frankly, w/out the DeM, they wouldn't have gotten me to, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  I wonder how many other people were hoping they could walk away after Freedom's Progress only to learn, shock of all shocks here, that the leaving was a lie?

I get it, you liked the idea of space magic bringing Shepard back to life so you could be with Cerberus.  I would have preferred to spend ME 2 preparing for the invasion that I knew was coming.  You know, gathering the galaxy together, finding the Crucible plans, spending the game figuring out exactly what it did, and then spent ME 3 actually fighting the Reapers to get it deployed and used.  Instead, we spend that time fighting repurposed Protheans, and working for terrorists.

[David7204]

Yeah, you're really going to sway me with that. Your definition of a DEM is wrong, your accusations oh what I supposedly want and think are stupid, and your ideas for what ME 2 should have been are lame.

[robertthebard]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah, you're really going to sway me with that. Your definition of a DEM is wrong, your accusations oh what I supposedly want and think are stupid, and your ideas for what ME 2 should have been are lame.

I really have no interest in swaying you to anything.  What you think matters less than nothing to me.  Other than I do find it humorous that "because I said so" is a valid argument against anything you choose to argue against.  Do carry on, it's better than what's not on TV at the moment.

[David7204]

And what about what the developers think? Because they certainly seem to agree with me, don't they? They included Lazarus. Does that matter 'less than nothing' to you? Evidently not.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Samtheman63 wrote...

cerberus are reapers slave who spend the entire game sabotaging the war effort

In ME3, because they are indoctrinated.

[s-jay2676]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I posted this in another thread a few days ago and feel that it belongs here:

I'm a Cerberus fan, and I'm not a racist. At all. I am pro-human. Pro-human is not anti-alien.

I think that depends on how you interpret that statement. One could argue that if you are pro-something, then you're also anti-something.  Besides, I do not think that Cerberus is pro-human, they're definitely pro-Cerberus. I did not see any signs that they've got human interests at heart.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

s-jay2676 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I posted this in another thread a few days ago and feel that it belongs here:

I'm a Cerberus fan, and I'm not a racist. At all. I am pro-human. Pro-human is not anti-alien.

I think that depends on how you interpret that statement. One could argue that if you are pro-something, then you're also anti-something.  Besides, I do not think that Cerberus is pro-human, they're definitely pro-Cerberus. I did not see any signs that they've got human interests at heart.

I didn't see any signs that the alliance or council had humanity's best interests at heart. I hold them accountable for nearly damning the galaxy. Honestly, I think Cerberus really did at one point. It came to a point where they believed that they were the only ones capablle of saving humanity, and that they had to do whatever means were necessary to do so. I don't believe in all that "they were always evil" crap.That's alliance propaganda.

They became too caught up in their beliefs, which meant they were willing to experiment with Reaper tech. Once that occured, the Reapers quickly turned them into a twisted and perverted version of their prior self, turning their goal into a self-serving ideal that put the Reapers at the top ideal. This was the Reapers doing to cause division and dissent. TIM should have known better. He did know better in fact. But he let the worse part of his nature get the better of him.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 05 mai 2013 - 10:26 .

[s-jay2676]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

s-jay2676 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I posted this in another thread a few days ago and feel that it belongs here:

I'm a Cerberus fan, and I'm not a racist. At all. I am pro-human. Pro-human is not anti-alien.

I think that depends on how you interpret that statement. One could argue that if you are pro-something, then you're also anti-something.  Besides, I do not think that Cerberus is pro-human, they're definitely pro-Cerberus. I did not see any signs that they've got human interests at heart.

I didn't see any signs that the alliance or council had humanity's best interests at heart. I hold them accountable for nearly damning the galaxy. Honestly, I think Cerberus really did at one point. It came to a point where they believed that they were the only ones capablle of saving humanity, and that they had to do whatever means were necessary to do so. I don't believe in all that "they were always evil" crap.That's alliance propaganda.

They became too caught up in their beliefs, which meant they were willing to experiment with Reaper tech. Once that occured, the Reapers quickly turned them into a twisted and perverted version of their prior self, turning their goal into a self-serving ideal that put the Reapers at the top ideal. This was the Reapers doing to cause division and dissent. TIM should have known better. He did know better in fact. But he let the worse part of his nature get the better of him.

Never claimed that the Alliance or the Council had humanity's best interests at heart. But we're not discussing them but Cerberus. I don't think I need Alliance propaganda to form a view of Cerberus. I saw enough throughout the three games to form an opinion. And maybe you're right and they weren't always evil, but if that's the case then they had completely lost their agenda and wandered so far off the desired course, that they are not tolerable anymore.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

s-jay2676 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

s-jay2676 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I posted this in another thread a few days ago and feel that it belongs here:

I'm a Cerberus fan, and I'm not a racist. At all. I am pro-human. Pro-human is not anti-alien.

I think that depends on how you interpret that statement. One could argue that if you are pro-something, then you're also anti-something.  Besides, I do not think that Cerberus is pro-human, they're definitely pro-Cerberus. I did not see any signs that they've got human interests at heart.

I didn't see any signs that the alliance or council had humanity's best interests at heart. I hold them accountable for nearly damning the galaxy. Honestly, I think Cerberus really did at one point. It came to a point where they believed that they were the only ones capablle of saving humanity, and that they had to do whatever means were necessary to do so. I don't believe in all that "they were always evil" crap.That's alliance propaganda.

They became too caught up in their beliefs, which meant they were willing to experiment with Reaper tech. Once that occured, the Reapers quickly turned them into a twisted and perverted version of their prior self, turning their goal into a self-serving ideal that put the Reapers at the top ideal. This was the Reapers doing to cause division and dissent. TIM should have known better. He did know better in fact. But he let the worse part of his nature get the better of him.

Never claimed that the Alliance or the Council had humanity's best interests at heart. But we're not discussing them but Cerberus. I don't think I need Alliance propaganda to form a view of Cerberus. I saw enough throughout the three games to form an opinion. And maybe you're right and they weren't always evil, but if that's the case then they had completely lost their agenda and wandered so far off the desired course, that they are not tolerable anymore.

I formed an opinion of them as well. Same as my Shepard. He thinks they're a force that's necessary to the balance of power in the galaxy, and beyond. So necessary that he's going to reform them with Miranda in the future. I look at what Dr. Cole was doing, what many of the other scientists on Gellix were doing, what Dr. Archer was doing to a degree (he went too far by willfully submitting his brother, though I agree with his statement that TIM asks for too much progress with too little time to properly achieve it), what Miranda was doing with my body, and what Miranda and Shepard were doing together with the Cerberus Normandy. It needs to be more streamlined, and Shepard is going to ensure that his people are held to a certain ethic where the suffering of the few doesn't outweigh the benefits of the many. Too many Cerberus programs, while idealistic in goal, became too befuddled by problems. People were dying, and there was no research to show for it. I don't think it's inherent evil, nor is it quite to the Mengele levels of ruthlessness (he geared his experiments to maximize the suffering of his subjects), but there is no research or new information to justify the deaths of the people. 

And yes, they lost their agenda the moment they put Reaper tech into their brains. That almost instantly caused a change that made their vision to become an ugly, distorted, and perverted husk of its former shelf at the behest of their new Reaper masters.

[PsyrenY]

In Exile wrote...

What are the things people tout as instant win miracles?

Thanix
FTL ramming
Thanix
Blow up all relays
Did I mention Thanix?

[DirtySHISN0]

I really preferred ME1 cerberus and ME1 reapers.

They were token evil faceless groups, but the potential capacity and threat that their anonymity brought was far more menacing than how they turned out.

I would have liked a slower introduction to cerberus in ME2, perhaps not finding out that these people you were working for were cerberus until the midway point. (they could have even pretended to be alliance with TIM under the facade of admiral kahokus replacement - the discovery point would have been horizon when you meet the VS. After that point it would be a greater good choice to continue fighting the collectors depsite working for cerberus)

Pardon the massive bracket.

[robertthebard]

David7204 wrote...

And what about what the developers think? Because they certainly seem to agree with me, don't they? They included Lazarus. Does that matter 'less than nothing' to you? Evidently not.

They thought the ending was good too, so I'm going to buy their opinion?  I guess we need to close all those "the ending sucks" threads, since the developers thought they were good.

[David7204]

I didn't say anything about having to buy it. But you do have to respect it, don't you?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Optimystic_X wrote...

In Exile wrote...

What are the things people tout as instant win miracles?

Thanix
FTL ramming
Thanix
Blow up all relays
Did I mention Thanix?

Blowing up the relays is a bad solution period. It might work, but not on the scale you'd want it too.

FTL Ramming is impossible. The game says so, though I don't really get how. Something about some built in programming (which strikes me as odd, but whatever).

I don't get all this hate for Thanix though. I don't think it's going to be the magic bullet, but it should be doing some real damage. I think this was something that was intentionally left out or overlooked by BW. Afterall, they have to make it clear that fighting is hopeless, and having some success would run counter to that image. I don't think it's going to change the balance or turn the tide, but I think it's going to mean a few more dead Reapers.

Nukes would be a strategy, albeit rather limited. Ballistic missiles would be too easily destroyed, and presuming you could get close enough to a Reaper, it'd be suicidal to use it, though it will destroy the Reaper. It'd be a lot more effective in atmosphere though. The Reapers have no defense against a nuclear explosion, at least not within the hypocenter or the fireball. Kinetic barriers won't do jack against the thermal radiation (the fireball) and with a core temperature of a multi-kiloton yield bomb is over 10,000,000 Kelvin. There's no material I can think of that is capable of even withstanding a quarter of a percent of that heat. But it would be a desperation weapon and not one that should be resorted to.

Or, as the game play suggests, just put Cains on everything.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 06 mai 2013 - 02:18 .

[David7204]

The problem with thanix guns is what you might call...overforeshadowing.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

The problem with thanix guns is what you might call...overforeshadowing.

How so? 

[David7204]

It's basically the same problem as all asari soldiers being commandos, or all salarian soldiers being STG.

We don't need to be told that the asari, for example, have a vast military with many different components. It's assumed, it's implicit. It doesn't require foreshadowing. So if every asari soldier we meet does turn out to be a commando...well...it makes the galaxy feel smaller. It makes it feel like things don't exist beyond what we see. Realistically, we should be encountering all kinds of different soldiers that haven't been foreshadowed.

Likewise, we don't need to be told that the galaxy has all sorts of weapons to fight the Reapers with. It's implicit and obvious. So if all we see is thanix weapons, it kind of shrinks things down a bit. It makes it feel like the galaxy hasn't done anything else, that technology doesn't exist beyond what we see as the player.

In short, sometimes it's better to introduce elements that haven't been foreshadowed.

I'm not saying ME does a particular bad job, because it certainly doesn't. It's an incredibly difficult problem that all 'world-builders' face. I mean, God, look at Halo, where you take out the center of a galactic empire with two jeeps, a tank, and a small helicopter or two.The best a storyteller can ever do is give glimpses of a larger reality beyond what the audience sees.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 03:36 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm getting something different from your argument: I think what you're saying is that there are too few actual thanix cannons. I'd agree completely if that was what you're trying to say. I think the technology isn't really too widespread. It's still considered experimental technology if I remember right.

Also, I wouldn't call the Asari military vast. I think it's said that they have an incredibly small military for a species of their population. It's fairly large in comparison to humanity, but I think it's rather limited in mission. They specialize in strike missions and interdiction operations. They're not really suited for prolonged engagements or conflict like the Turians or Krogan. They fill a different niche.

[David7204]

Err...not exactly. What I'm arguing is that not every ship should be equipped with thanix guns. Not even most ships.

About the other species militaries...I really don't like that. I know the writers were trying to establish the races as diverse, but they took it a little too far. The asari should be able to curb-stomb humanity if they wanted to. Same with the salarians and turians, and maybe even some of the other races.

[Argolas]

The council races for sure since they have been out there a lot longer than humans, but which other races? Batarians maybe I guess, but Krogan have no warships and the Volus rely on Turian protection. What other race could possibly maintain a significant fleet?

Edit: Forgot about the Hanar. Yes, there actually are a few.

Modifié par Argolas, 06 mai 2013 - 04:46 .

[David7204]

It's tough. It's almost certain that there's going to be a lot more human characters than alien characters, simply because humans are much easier to make diverse and stand out.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Err...not exactly. What I'm arguing is that not every ship should be equipped with thanix guns. Not even most ships.

About the other species militaries...I really don't like that. I know the writers were trying to establish the races as diverse, but they took it a little too far. The asari should be able to curb-stomb humanity if they wanted to. Same with the salarians and turians, and maybe even some of the other races.

Well, as I said, Thanix will definitely do some damage, and there will be a few more dead Reapers. That said, it's not the game changer that some people make it out to be. There's too few of the cannons to make a discernable difference. 

I still wanted to see the Kwunu in action. That's probably the single most requested war asset.

They'd win, but it would be a different type of fight. The Asari would win by popping out of FTL speeds and making a surprise strike, while a commando team would opt for sabotage on the ground.

The Salarians would go the sabotage and assassination route, with the same tactics as the Asari in a battle more or less.

The Turians are the only one's who'd engage in a full-scale attack, and they'd win through sheer force of numbers and firepower.