168 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

All three Council races should be able to beat humanity on basically any front. Brute force or no.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

We have the advantage of our adaptability and creativity. We think out-side the box. We don't try to engage in a pointless assault or try to sabotage an enemy stronghold. We skip around them and attack their non-combat units.

We'd find ways to 'cheat' so to speak. An example:

I think we'd use our dreadnoughts differently than anyone else. We would use ours as fire support ships. Our key vessels would be the carriers. Think WWII. The Japanese, Germans, and to a lesser extent, even our own officers thought the pinnacle of warfare was the battleship. That's why the Japanese created large fleets of surface ships dedicated to surface warfare. Early on, we realized how our fleet (since we were still recovering from Pearl Harbor) would have the disadvantage in a surface battle. So we turned to aircraft as a means to inflict damage. It worked tremendously. The Japanese spent the whole war going after our battleships, seeking them out for a confrontation. We realized this and used it to our advantage. Our battleships were used as support vessels for our landing assaults and as decoys. Our carriers meanwhile inflicted terrible damage to their fleet, along with our subs.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

All three Council races should be able to beat humanity on basically any front. Brute force or no.

Space battles perhaps.

In a ground war, I wouldn't sell humanity short.

[David7204]

Yeah. That's a problem. Humans should not be special snowflakes who are the only ones clever enough to come up with unconventional tactics. We're talking about entire species with many, many, many billions of citizens and thousands of years of warfare experience.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 05:10 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Thanix cannons AREN'T very widespread, because they were only developed (by the Turians) in the last two and a half years, based on technology derived from Sovereign's corpse. Mass production may be fast in a technologically advanced future, but for something to go from a cutting edge, experimental prototype to a staple frontline weapon necessarily takes time and investment.

The Thanix cannon in particular is probably pretty expensive, given what it is claimed to do, and how powerful it makes a ship equipped with it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah. That's a problem. Humans should not be special snowflakes who are the only ones clever enough to come up with unconventional tactics. We're talking about entire species with many, many, many billions of citizens and thousands of years of warfare experience.

Well, like it or not, its established in universe that we are like that.

[David7204]

Making things a little smoother wouldn't require changing a lot. Mostly just dialogue here and there, I think. A few more aliens and a few less humans. Not completely ideal, but world-building never is. The good news is that ME 3 could have been used to even things out. By simply having the Reapers focus on the other races more than humans, humans could have emerged as truly equal at the end of the war. A bit morbid, but effective.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 05:34 .

[Megaton_Hope]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah. That's a problem. Humans should not be special snowflakes who are the only ones clever enough to come up with unconventional tactics. We're talking about entire species with many, many, many billions of citizens and thousands of years of warfare experience.

I'd particularly expect Asari and Krogan strategists to be tops in their fields, since they could personally witness successful and unsuccessful implementations of particular tactics hundreds of years past. And they'd be studying in the intervening time, with all kinds of space-age documentation to work from.

[David7204]

Yep. And of course the stronger the asari and salarians and turians are, the more justified a conventional victory would be.

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

All three Council races should be able to beat humanity on basically any front. Brute force or no.

Space battles perhaps.

In a ground war, I wouldn't sell humanity short.

On an individual level of battle, humans can hold their own against the two species that haven't had to specialize in dedicated ground warfare themselves for over a thousand years. Congratulations. And in any case, that matters rather less than what would happen in all-out war, which would lead to humanity's reasonably rapid crushing.

[Astartes Marine]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Space battles perhaps.
In a ground war, I wouldn't sell humanity short.

I wouldn't sell humanity short regardless of space or ground.  Though the Council fools have superior numbers in space thanks to that damned treaty.

[Xilizhra]

Astartes Marine wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Space battles perhaps.
In a ground war, I wouldn't sell humanity short.

I wouldn't sell humanity short regardless of space or ground.  Though the Council fools have superior numbers in space thanks to that damned treaty.

Also, you know, thousands of years of experience and territory on humanity.

[PsyrenY]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Blowing up the relays is a bad solution period. It might work, but not on the scale you'd want it too.

FTL Ramming is impossible. The game says so, though I don't really get how. Something about some built in programming (which strikes me as odd, but whatever).

I was actually being snarky rather than proposing serious solutions :innocent: 

I am rather firmly against the conventional victory camp.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't get all this hate for Thanix though. I don't think it's going to be the magic bullet, but it should be doing some real damage. I think this was something that was intentionally left out or overlooked by BW. Afterall, they have to make it clear that fighting is hopeless, and having some success would run counter to that image. I don't think it's going to change the balance or turn the tide, but I think it's going to mean a few more dead Reapers.

A few more is unlikely to cut it, given their numbers.

One of the main problems I see with Thanix is that it is slow. The cannons have a (visible) warm-up time, the molten-metal beam itself is slower than light ("a fraction of the speed of light"), and of course it is being targeted by the limited reaction time of an organic operator, maybe with some VI assistance on top of all that. Targeting an AI-piloted ship that can FTL at will with it is going to be dicey at best, particularly if the Reapers are cyberwarfaring your VI targeting at the same time.

There's a reason Dreadnoughts normally use lasers (UV beams to be precise) at close range - anything slower than light can be dodged, especially by Reapers which can practically turn on a dime despite their size. 

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Nukes would be a strategy, albeit rather limited. Ballistic missiles would be too easily destroyed, and presuming you could get close enough to a Reaper, it'd be suicidal to use it, though it will destroy the Reaper. It'd be a lot more effective in atmosphere though.

As you pointed out, nukes are also too slow to use on Reapers in space.

Nukes do some damage in-atmosphere, but that presents challenges of its own - notably that you'd better not be trying to save civilians or resources in the area. Unfortunately, that tends to be where Reapers land.

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Or, as the game play suggests, just put Cains on everything.

The Cain took out a Hades Cannon - a Reaper modified into surface-to-air ordnance. Assuming a Hades Cannon (which needs a giant hole in the top for the shots to come out of, by necessity) has the same defenses as a normal Reaper seems unreasonable to me. 

[Archonsg]

It is a pity though they (Bioware) didn't have the time or funds to do what I believe was an intended schism choice in ME2 to follow through into ME3 and have you play as a Cerberus or Council agent.

Do you unite the galaxy under the heel of human supremacy, or unite them under the banner of cooperation?

Would priority Citadel involve Shepard going up against old friends, allow him/her at least a chance to turn some of them to his/her cause if he is with Cerberus? 

Even TIMs eventual indoctrination could play well into the ending making Shepard the new head of Cerberus.

It would have been an interesting play through at the least.
Could you convince the VS to join you or its a bullet to the back of head?
Replace Liara with Miranda as the new Shadow Broker?
Could you knife Garrus in the back if he can't be turned into your personal hitman?

Pity.

Modifié par Archonsg, 06 mai 2013 - 07:21 .

[David7204]

That sounds utterly awful.

[PsyrenY]

Archonsg wrote...

Would priority Citadel involve Shepard going up against old friends and can her at least turn some of them to his course if he is with Cerberus?

This sounds like the Death's Hand/Ya Zhen choice in Jade Empire. Interesting but would require some significantly out-of-character behavior from the squadmates to pull off.

[Archonsg]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Would priority Citadel involve Shepard going up against old friends and can her at least turn some of them to his course if he is with Cerberus?

This sounds like the Death's Hand/Ya Zhen choice in Jade Empire. Interesting but would require some significantly out-of-character behavior from the squadmates to pull off.

Not if you kill or replace those not willing to go along with you.

[David7204]

Which would be ridiculous after ME 1 and ME 2.

[Ieldra]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
Illusive Man doesn't see the board several moves ahead of his current move, though. He doesn't even seem to see his current move, most of the time. The Collector ship mission is particularly bone-headed; there's nothing to gain from that little excursion, but he stands to lose Shepard, in whom he has invested a significant amount of time, money and manpower, as well as two of his other most valuable operatives, and potentially a very expensive ship and unique AI. Like Shepard says, if they were after an IFF, it would have been better to tell Shepard that so that he can look for one.

The CB is a Reaper factory. Which means it has complete information about the physical makeup of the Reapers. That knowledge should've been invaluable in the war. Instead, we get.....+10 TMS. This is insulting.

[David7204]

If you have any suggestions, I'm listening. Keeping in mind most players chose to destroy the base.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 07:29 .

[Archonsg]

David7204 wrote...

That sounds utterly awful.

Why?
My human-first pro Cerberus character would work undet Cerberus flag to bring about a Galaxy under Humanity's heel.
Liara is a crappy SB, its like she's screaming to the entire inteligence agencies "shhhh! I'm the new Shadow Broker, but you aren't supposed to know that." amongst other things.

And playing the alternative side is always fun.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...
Illusive Man doesn't see the board several moves ahead of his current move, though. He doesn't even seem to see his current move, most of the time. The Collector ship mission is particularly bone-headed; there's nothing to gain from that little excursion, but he stands to lose Shepard, in whom he has invested a significant amount of time, money and manpower, as well as two of his other most valuable operatives, and potentially a very expensive ship and unique AI. Like Shepard says, if they were after an IFF, it would have been better to tell Shepard that so that he can look for one.

The CB is a Reaper factory. Which means it has complete information about the physical makeup of the Reapers. That knowledge should've been invaluable in the war. Instead, we get.....+10 TMS. This is insulting.

All information on it was held by an enemy faction until immediately before the final battle, when there wasn't nearly enough time to apply any of it.

[David7204]

First of all, because having a complete separate playthrough with likely a Cerberus Normandy and Cerberus crew would be an insane and completely off the table amount of work.

Secondly, because this is an incredibly character intensive story, and it's not going to function if every crewmember is thrown away because the player decides to go down a path that pisses them off.

Thirdly, it forces an extremely heavy theme of humans vs. aliens on the story, and that's something 95% of players simply aren't going to care about at all. I know people on a forum will gleefully advocate wanton murder and genocide and whatnot, but nobody in real life legitimately thinks that humans are the best and we need to crush aliens when we meet them. It's a weak conflict to put so much weight on.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 07:42 .

[Ieldra]

Regarding Cerberus, here's my take on it:

I don't support human supremacy, but I think that some ends justify certain means. Preventing galaxy-wide extinction would justify some very drastic means. "It's not worth it" is easy to say if you're in a story and know that you won't be called to make that choice because stories rarely work that way, but consider this:

Is believing in a device so unknown in its workings that it might as well be magic more rational than trying to develop methods of taking control of Reapers?

There is one, and only one compelling argument against Cerberus, and it's not Sanctuary. It's mind-controlling your own people. In the face of extinction, survival is the highest goal and trumps all other considerations, unless the means of survival will change us in unwanted ways and we'd rather choose death. Most of us would rather choose death than being mind-controlled. Or...would we?

Yet again, I don't believe in human supremacy, but I believe in radical advancement, in general and specifically to counter the Reaper threat. Cerberus is the only organization not just willing to experiment with unknown technology, but to make the knowledge gained our own, unlike the one-shot Crucible project. I resent the implied message that what Cerberus does there - as opposed to how it does it - is somehow flawed, and that's why I defend them as far as possible in spite of their evils.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 mai 2013 - 07:44 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...
Illusive Man doesn't see the board several moves ahead of his current move, though. He doesn't even seem to see his current move, most of the time. The Collector ship mission is particularly bone-headed; there's nothing to gain from that little excursion, but he stands to lose Shepard, in whom he has invested a significant amount of time, money and manpower, as well as two of his other most valuable operatives, and potentially a very expensive ship and unique AI. Like Shepard says, if they were after an IFF, it would have been better to tell Shepard that so that he can look for one.

The CB is a Reaper factory. Which means it has complete information about the physical makeup of the Reapers. That knowledge should've been invaluable in the war. Instead, we get.....+10 TMS. This is insulting.

All information on it was held by an enemy faction until immediately before the final battle, when there wasn't nearly enough time to apply any of it.

Reasonably Cerberus shouldn't have been an enemy faction. A rational attitude would've been: we try it our way, you try it your way, but we all want to end the Reaper threat so we exchange all information about the Reapers we get. Cerberus as an enemy was a dumb idea.