168 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

I actually disagree with using batarian as villains not because of David7204's reasons but because batarians I think got the worst characterization of any of the races....

One of the strengths about the ME franchise is that each race is presented as both saints and sinners....even the synthetics have their good and bad side (the true vs heretics)..

EXCEPT the batarians.

I honestly was hoping ME3 would've given us a batarian teammate...I rather we lose EDI as a teammate and picked up a batarian instead....in across the entire trilogy including DLCs, do we ever run across batarians that aren't antagonistic to shepard et al?

[Wayning_Star]

Bleachrude wrote...

I actually disagree with using batarian as villains not because of David7204's reasons but because batarians I think got the worst characterization of any of the races....

One of the strengths about the ME franchise is that each race is presented as both saints and sinners....even the synthetics have their good and bad side (the true vs heretics)..

EXCEPT the batarians.

I honestly was hoping ME3 would've given us a batarian teammate...I rather we lose EDI as a teammate and picked up a batarian instead....in across the entire trilogy including DLCs, do we ever run across batarians that aren't antagonistic to shepard et al?

we 'kind of' do with that Omega DLC, although its peripheral. The Bat's seem to play the victim of other Apex types?

I don't see that synthetics as being 'good' or 'bad' as they're programmed. Organics are not programmed, are they?

[Caldari Ghost]

Cerberus would be so much more of what they should be if the writing of all three games weren't so biased toward socializing with your peers.

i can't find any mention of them in ME1 (ME2 beginning keeps making me look there) but cerberus as a whole ought to be an example of the strength and courage f humanity.

the audacity to know what the reapers are and say "if the reapers are planning to wipe out humanity, Cerberus will stop them". what a fine way to describe your motive and attitude about it.

so much was lost for the sake of the trilogy's moral story.


I have bigger trouble with Legion though. Why the hell would he, coming from where he was, want to become human? He should see and be at peace with the advantages of being a machine and have no interest at all in becoming an emotional being.

He shouldn't seek a soul, he should seek for the organics to better understand their situation in regards to the geth, the Morning war and it's aftereffects, and the advantages of thinking logically instead of waiting for the council to beckon Sheperd.



Legion could have been so much better, as could have Cerberus.


The geth also didn't start it, apparently.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 06 mai 2013 - 12:14 .

[Wayning_Star]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Cerberus would be so much more of what they should be if the writing of all three games weren't so biased toward socializing with your peers.

i can't find any mention of them in ME1 (ME2 beginning keeps making me look there) but cerberus as a whole ought to be an example of the strength and courage f humanity.

the audacity to know what the reapers are and say "if the reapers are planning to wipe out humanity, Cerberus will stop them". what a fine way to describe your motive and attitude about it.

so much was lost for the sake of the trilogy's moral story.


I have bigger trouble with Legion though. Why the hell would he, coming from where he was, want to become human? He should see and be at peace with the advantages of being a machine and have no interest at all in becoming an emotional being.

He shouldn't seek a soul, he should seek for the organics to better understand their situation in regards to the geth, the Morning war and it's aftereffects, and the advantages of thinking logically instead of waiting for the council to beckon Sheperd.



Legion could have been so much better, as could have Cerberus.


The geth also didn't start it, apparently.

I've seem to kind of suspect that Cerberus is the humanities reflection of 'selfishness'. Preservation gone profiteering?

The Geth started that the day they became self aware. One drawback of existence is existence..

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Regarding Cerberus, here's my take on it:

I don't support human supremacy, but I think that some ends justify certain means. Preventing galaxy-wide extinction would justify some very drastic means. "It's not worth it" is easy to say if you're in a story and know that you won't be called to make that choice because stories rarely work that way, but consider this:

Is believing in a device so unknown in its workings that it might as well be magic more rational than trying to develop methods of taking control of Reapers?

There is one, and only one compelling argument against Cerberus, and it's not Sanctuary. It's mind-controlling your own people. In the face of extinction, survival is the highest goal and trumps all other considerations, unless the means of survival will change us in unwanted ways and we'd rather choose death. Most of us would rather choose death than being mind-controlled. Or...would we?

Yet again, I don't believe in human supremacy, but I believe in radical advancement, in general and specifically to counter the Reaper threat. Cerberus is the only organization not just willing to experiment with unknown technology, but to make the knowledge gained our own, unlike the one-shot Crucible project. I resent the implied message that what Cerberus does there - as opposed to how it does it - is somehow flawed, and that's why I defend them as far as possible in spite of their evils.

I agree insofar as I support radical advancement, which is why I was disappointed in ME3 in that regard: making Cerberus the enemy because of its radical advancement ideas, instead of its human supremacism, something that I'd have been far happier whacking them for.

[RinoTheBouncer]

I did agree with his point of view. However, he doesn't fit the requirements that make him a suitable person to lead such power. He's one of those people whom are like "So what if 50 people died? it's for the greater good. So what if a city got destroyed? it's for the good of the entire galaxy" while Shepard is more like "I'll do my best to save the people, the city and the galaxy".

So a person like TIM cannot possibly be appointed as the leader of such power that can decide the fate of many species in a whole galaxy.

[Argolas]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Okay...so...let's consider a popular book like Harry Potter. Most of the books' content is focused on him in class...doing homework...eating lunch...talking to his friends about this or that...having dreams...how do you propose those things be turned into a challenge for the player?

You might want to take a look at the popular Persona series.

To be honest- although I really enjoyed Persona 3 and 4, it's not a prime example how it works. Doing the everyday things right until 100% (and you'll want that), at least in P3, requires strictly following a step-by-step guide on the internet. In P4 it's possible without that, but there are still questionable things like requiring you to talk to a random generic NPC on a particular day in order to establish the emperor link.

On the other hand, if you don't care about the special 100% bonuses, it's actually a very decent mechanic. So yes, the potential is there.

David7204 wrote...

The game needs some sort of human enemy to fight, and fight often.

No, it doesn't.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

RinoTheBouncer wrote...

I did agree with his point of view. However, he doesn't fit the requirements that make him a suitable person to lead such power. He's one of those people whom are like "So what if 50 people died? it's for the greater good. So what if a city got destroyed? it's for the good of the entire galaxy" while Shepard is more like "I'll do my best to save the people, the city and the galaxy".

So a person like TIM cannot possibly be appointed as the leader of such power that can decide the fate of many species in a whole galaxy.

I think that mindset is ok, to an extent. My Shepard shares it. My Shepard is willing to leave a city to be destroyed in a campaign if he can get something that's more valuable out of the fight, be it a planet, or special weapons system, or even just a fleet of transports. 

I'd rather those transports be delivering troops and supplies than wasting their times making milk runs with civilians.

TIM's issue is that he does resort to the most extreme method too often, or he puts pressure on his project leads to accomplish a goal with limited time, pretty much forcing them to go beyond their ethics. He needed to buck down and give his people time to get the job done. Too many corners end up cut, too many people end up dead, and there's just not enough new data or information to show for it. It's inefficient.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 06 mai 2013 - 02:06 .

[Megaton_Hope]

LineHolder wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...
When a man tries to see far into the distance, what's the first thing he does? He narrows his eyes.

This is the best new quote I have heard in years. Bravo.

I stole it from Katsuhiro Otomo.

Caldari Ghost wrote...

i can't find any mention of them in ME1 (ME2 beginning keeps making me
look there) but cerberus as a whole ought to be an example of the
strength and courage f humanity.

They're there, they just happen to be performing experiments somehow intended to create a supersoldier. But which generally lean toward wiping out Alliance squads with Thresher Maws and coralling husks in force fields.

Mention of them as representing something strong and courageous about humanity, naw. Pretty much just comic book supervillains.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Illusive Man's plan to build Reaper technology into his head, and then control the Reapers using his head, was really dumb. I don't care what he's got in there; it will not work as well as the entire Reaper fleet cooperating. Plus, he won't live forever.

Taking control of the Reaper bodies without having to unleash massive destruction across the galaxy has some moderate appeal. Mainly in that Reaper technology is obscenely advanced, and they could be reverse-engineered to understand and apply that technology to other things.

Cerberus, no. When a man tries to see far into the distance, what's the first thing he does? He narrows his eyes. It's exactly their philosophy that their end will justify any means that's the problem. That's a recipe for finding newer and better means as time goes on, so long as the end hasn't been achieved. We need to melt Los Angeles into a pool of goop; well, them's the breaks. We're fighting for the greater good. (A good greater than millions of people being alive, anyway.)

Pretty much.

On a more joking note, TIM & co. aren't called 'Derperus' for no reason.

[Bleachrude]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I actually disagree with using batarian as villains not because of David7204's reasons but because batarians I think got the worst characterization of any of the races....

One of the strengths about the ME franchise is that each race is presented as both saints and sinners....even the synthetics have their good and bad side (the true vs heretics)..

EXCEPT the batarians.

I honestly was hoping ME3 would've given us a batarian teammate...I rather we lose EDI as a teammate and picked up a batarian instead....in across the entire trilogy including DLCs, do we ever run across batarians that aren't antagonistic to shepard et al?

we 'kind of' do with that Omega DLC, although its peripheral. The Bat's seem to play the victim of other Apex types?

I don't see that synthetics as being 'good' or 'bad' as they're programmed. Organics are not programmed, are they?

Well no...but you can point to the geth as an example of having a good and evil side...even among the true geth, you can point out the stupid/bad things the geth did (really, how exactly is it a good thing NOT to tell the other races that a portion of your people have gone on a genocidal march|?).

Do we ever get a good impression of the batarian government? Or even elements of it akin to the STG/Dalatress split?

[radishson]

Having a Pro-Cerberus ME3 Shepard would've been great. As it is, TIM and Cerberus at large were shoehorned into a terrible send-off via ~indoctrination~. Super boring and disappointing. The weirdest part is despite his role as secondary antagonist, TIM was right about controlling the reapers all along. Why Bioware chose to make the enemy's logic a valid endgame option is beyond me, seeing as the narrative did very little to add credibility to the idea.

[SinerAthin]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Cerberus doesn't care about the galaxy at large, they would use the Reapers to enslave the other races for humanity's benefit. TIM would effectively become Space-Hitler.

Enslaving the other races would be illogical.

It would be more effective to send the Reapers to destroy them all.


If we need workers we can simply construct an AI race, and if ethics become a problem; we can program them to enjoy work.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 06 mai 2013 - 10:15 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Bleachrude wrote...
I honestly was hoping ME3 would've given us a batarian teammate...I rather we lose EDI as a teammate and picked up a batarian instead....in across the entire trilogy including DLCs, do we ever run across batarians that aren't antagonistic to shepard et al?

There's Bray, in the Omega DLC. He doesn't help you out or anything, but he kinda gives you props at the end.

[Ausstig]

David7204 wrote...

Because it very heavily limits the motives you can give them. If they're just Reaper slaves, you can't have them doing anything much more complex then just shooting people because they're Reapers.

Also, as I said, because I'd very much prefer them to be a step-up. Shepard's squad is supposed to be stronger then ever. It doesn't feel 100% plausible to have them slowed down by generic batarians.

What about enhanced Batarins?

[Ahms]

I'm surprised that there are quite a number of pro-Cerberus people here. I thought I'd definitely be in the minority here.

[N7-RedFox]

I was fine with TIM until he sold out the human race and the rest of the galaxy. He recklessly gave his mind over to the Reapers by implanting himself with their tech. Subsequently, the rest of Cerberus fell into the same demise. What a dumb frak

Modifié par N7-RedFox, 09 mai 2013 - 12:55 .

[Slayer299]

Ahms wrote...

I'm surprised that there are quite a number of pro-Cerberus people here. I thought I'd definitely be in the minority here.

It's not that Cerberus' goals were wrong, so its easy to support them, its their repeat fail methods. One of my big prolems with Cerberus was the level of stupidity that kept on doing over and over and over. Its hard to take an organization like Cerberus as anything but incompetent when all you see are 50,000 failed operations and 2 successes (Normandy and Shep). TIM (in ME3) was really painted out to be stupid evil and making it almost impossible to identify/agree with for the most part even if you liked Cerberus' goals from 2.

edit - typo

Modifié par Slayer299, 09 mai 2013 - 01:15 .