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[remydat]

S.A.K.

2. Legion - "It uses our networking architecture to broadcast the Old Machine command signal to all Geth simulataneously."  That does not prevent a Reaper from controlling a single Geth dreadnought then having them convert said Dreadnought into communication device used to then send the control message to all the other Geth.  

3. Once again, we never see what happens so by your logic, we should doubt it especially since the sources are biased against the Geth and actually never witnessed the Geth shoot a single ship since anyone who entered the PV allegedly never returned.  This information is not even admissable in court since no one who said it witnessed the events.  It is heresay.  Legion's account is at least a first person account.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay

Modifié par remydat, 08 mai 2013 - 05:24 .

[S.A.K]

@shodiswe
Ok you seems to be right about this one. But a few things doesn't make sense then.
1. Why did Geth accept Reapers slavery when they were in contact with the Quarian admirals. Quarians clearly had the upper hand at the point, so why didn't the Geth just try to come to a truce? It's a far better choice for the Geth than being Reaper slaves.
2. Why does Tali talk about "I could have warned it about the attack"? If it was after the attack, Geth already know about it.

That tech wasn't tiny. It could fit Legion inside it. And that technique can only manufacture things out of plastic and light metals ceranic. So that idea is just plain wrong. They had to build it the old fassioned way.
"Omni-gel is composed of common, reusable industrial plastics, ceramics, and light alloys kept in a semi-molten state"

And you have to admit, Quarians couldn't ask for peace from the Geth because the Geth didn't let themselves be contacted.

@remydat
2. I don't see how a small(160m) Reaper could come close enough to a Geth Dreadnought to control it or why the rest of the Geth wouldn't do anything about it.

3. In ME1 you come accross a ship the went into Geth space and the Geth turned everyone inside it to husks and sent it back to Citadel space as a warning. In ME2 you come accross a ship that the Geth are about to crash into some colony. Geth are executing the crew when Shepard enters. Are you telling me you didn't do either those missions?

Legion IS a Geth. When someone is suspected with murder and claim innocence, do you just take his/her word for it?

[remydat]

S.A.K

2. It doesn't have to come close.  Just like indoctrination, the Reaper can control SOME Geth over a large distance but needs to use Legion and the networking architecture to be able to control ALL Geth.  You keep going off what you know because of it was revealed to us.  If it was not then there would be no reason to doubt the above.

3.  Pretty sure those Geth in ME1 and ME2 are heretics and not the true Geth.  But I am sure you will tell me  Legion was lying about the Heretics to.  So no that is not proof of these alleged DIPLOMATIC ships being shot down.  No one who say this alleged act occur is alive to tell the tell.

And organcs are attempted murders and prejudiced against the Geth, why should I take their word for it?  Works both ways.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K

2. It doesn't have to come close.  Just like indoctrination, the Reaper can control SOME Geth over a large distance but needs to use Legion and the networking architecture to be able to control ALL Geth.  You keep going off what you know because of it was revealed to us.  If it was not then there would be no reason to doubt the above.

3.  Pretty sure those Geth in ME1 and ME2 are heretics and not the true Geth.  But I am sure you will tell me  Legion was lying about the Heretics to.  So no that is not proof of these alleged DIPLOMATIC ships being shot down.  No one who say this alleged act occur is alive to tell the tell.

And organcs are attempted murders and prejudiced against the Geth, why should I take their word for it?  Works both ways.

2. The Reaper has SHORT RANGE TRANSMITTION. Legion says so itself. Just don't make stuff up dude. Or are you saying Legion lied?!

3. Lol. I didn't say they weren't Heretics. I just said they were Geth and Heretics are Geth. Organics didn't know about 2 Geth factions did they? And that was because the Geth refused to talk.

Now this is what I was talking about. You are just so fixed on saying Legion was telling the truth, you'd rather think every organic ever was lying. I don't think it's any use talking to you if this is your attitude. You just don't want to see your cute, cuddly Geth as the bad guys.<_<

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
Shepard/player learns those information in ME2 but the rest of the galaxy already knew that about Krogan.

Nobody in the galaxy except the Geth themselves knew about the Orthodox Geth. Even after ME2 only few people know that info about the Geth.

See the difference now?

I know the difference. But aside from the characters who actually interact with the polite Krogan or the Romantic Krogan or even the Mechanical/Scientist Krogan, the rest of the galaxy have a predetermined opinion upon the species.

You're right, no one knows about the Heretics until Legion tells Shepard. The majority of the galaxy knows nothing about Ardat-Yakshi either.

1. I don't think Geth deserve death.
2. Geths refusal to talk is the reason peace was not atchived until now. It's the reason why Quarians couldn't find a peaceful way to reclaim their world and its the cause for the seconds Quarian/Geth war.
3. Geth didn't have evidance Quarians would want peace because the Geth refused to talk to anyone.
4. It is the reason why all organics think there are only Heretic Geth.

So it's big thing. I don't say Geth should ask for peace. If I say organics should have asked for peace, they couldn't have done that because Geth won't let them talk.

Why are Geth so afraid to talk? I can't make this any more clear than this. Please look at it from a neutral view.

They're not afraid. Shepard asked Legion straight up in ME2 if organics existent in their plans for the future and he replies almost exactly "As long as they don't interfere". Essentially they want nothing to do with organics.

Look, I agree with you that IF the Quarians wanted peace it would be extremely difficult for them to open communications. In fact that's not even a debate.

My point is that at no time has they tried to broker a peace. The Admiralty board would rather fight and die rather than open up dialogue with the Geth.

You say the Quarians couldn't have asked for peace if they wanted to. I say the Geth made it difficult but not impossible for the Quarians do offer peace if they wanted. Not having an easy phone-call into the Geth to ask for peace and their planet back isn't a good enough reason to risk their entire species for a war that hadn't been fought in 300 years.

The only place I mistrust Legion is it's explanation of circumstances which the Geth allied with Reapers which doesn't make sense.

- The Geth are under attack and believe there is a high chance they can't win the war against the Quarians.
- The Geth know what the Reapers are and what they do.
- The Geth have a choice. Make a deal with the devil and have the chance to live as slaves or die in the war.
- The Geth's desire to continue living as a species is stronger than their fear/dislike of being Reaper slaves.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

I know the difference. But aside from the characters who actually interact with the polite Krogan or the Romantic Krogan or even the Mechanical/Scientist Krogan, the rest of the galaxy have a predetermined opinion upon the species.

You're right, no one knows about the Heretics until Legion tells Shepard. The majority of the galaxy knows nothing about Ardat-Yakshi either.

Ardat-Yakshi are not a galactic threat like Heretics are they?

They're not afraid. Shepard asked Legion straight up in ME2 if organics existent in their plans for the future and he replies almost exactly "As long as they don't interfere". Essentially they want nothing to do with organics.

Look, I agree with you that IF the Quarians wanted peace it would be extremely difficult for them to open communications. In fact that's not even a debate.

My point is that at no time has they tried to broker a peace. The Admiralty board would rather fight and die rather than open up dialogue with the Geth.

You say the Quarians couldn't have asked for peace if they wanted to. I say the Geth made it difficult but not impossible for the Quarians do offer peace if they wanted. Not having an easy phone-call into the Geth to ask for peace and their planet back isn't a good enough reason to risk their entire species for a war that hadn't been fought in 300 years.

Can you tell me how else Quarians could get their world back in a hurry. Since the Reapers are here, they need Rannoch ASAP before their fleet go to war with Reapers?

The only place I mistrust Legion is it's explanation of circumstances which the Geth allied with Reapers which doesn't make sense.

- The Geth are under attack and believe there is a high chance they can't win the war against the Quarians.
- The Geth know what the Reapers are and what they do.
- The Geth have a choice. Make a deal with the devil and have the chance to live as slaves or die in the war.
- The Geth's desire to continue living as a species is stronger than their fear/dislike of being Reaper slaves.

And I am saying that makes no logical sense.
1. If they know Quarians got the upper hand, it's a good time to contact Quarians and come to a truce. Geth know from Legion that atleast 2 of 5 Quarian admirals are open for peace.
2. If they know what Reapers want, why trust them? Look what Reapers did to Saran.
3. Lets say Geth beat Quarians under Reaper control and Geth are left as mindless husks. How is that any different from dying? Their minds are gone means they are dead like the Collectors (do you consider Collectors as Prothean survivers?)
4. Above point. And is the destruction of all races including themselves better than fighting the Quarians and dying with dignity or trying to come to a truce with Quarians or even running away like Normandy did from Earth?

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Ardat-Yakshi are not a galactic threat like Heretics are they?

Each Ardat-Yakshi can potentially live for over a thousand years with a genetic "curse" conditioning them to enjoy killing. One Ardat-Yakshi could become the worst serial killer of any species given enough time and not enough selectivity for their prey. Morinth was almost the equal to her mother despite being 400 years younger and selective in who she kills and she still was able to turn a small colony into mindless worthshippers.

I'd say that's got the potential for a small galatic threat.

Can you tell me how else Quarians could get their world back in a hurry. Since the Reapers are here, they need Rannoch ASAP before their fleet go to war with Reapers?

This makes no tactical sense. If you're at war with a species that can destroy planets and you don't have a home-world of your own, the last thing you do is decide to go looking for one and plant all your civlians there. No, the tactical decision is to split the civilian fleet into smaller groups and send them to different areas of space with no group having any idea where the rest are. That way if any are captured or killed the information and safety of the rest of the fleet remains.

- The Geth are under attack and believe there is a high chance they can't win the war against the Quarians.
- The Geth know what the Reapers are and what they do.
- The Geth have a choice. Make a deal with the devil and have the chance to live as slaves or die in the war.
- The Geth's desire to continue living as a species is stronger than their fear/dislike of being Reaper slaves.

And I am saying that makes no logical sense.
1. If they know Quarians got the upper hand, it's a good time to contact Quarians and come to a truce. Geth know from Legion that atleast 2 of 5 Quarian admirals are open for peace.
2. If they know what Reapers want, why trust them? Look what Reapers did to Saran.
3. Lets say Geth beat Quarians under Reaper control and Geth are left as mindless husks. How is that any different from dying? Their minds are gone means they are dead like the Collectors (do you consider Collectors as Prothean survivers?)
4. Above point. And is the destruction of all races including themselves better than fighting the Quarians and dying with dignity or trying to come to a truce with Quarians or even running away like Normandy did from Earth?

1 - It's not logical to beleve that a group attacking you out of the blue is going to accept peace. It's an emotional reaction to ask/plead for peace but not a logical one to believe it'll be accepted. If the Quarians wanted peace in the first place they wouldn't have attacked.

2 - Because they want to live. It's the same basic instinct as what was driving Saran (if you believe his words in ME1). You're hoping that any life is better than certain death.

3 - It's not actually said that the Geth minds are gone or just how the Reaper code affecst the Geth.

4 - The Geth don't have a "noble" ideal. There is logical thought pattern that will allow for your entire species to die to save another. That's an emotional decision by individuals for individuals. If you asked the Drell, the general attitude would be to fight and die for the Hanar but there'd be some who would prefer to still live.

The main problem is that you want this both ways. You want to say that the Quarians attacked the Geth partly because the Geth refused to allow incoming communications BUT say that they would be willing to have peace if it was asked for. If the Quarians wanted peace they could have not gone to war.

The Admiralty knew Tali knew Legion and would know she knew how to get in touch with him. They didn't do this because they wanted war.

[remydat]

2. I think you forgot what we were debating.  The only reason we know it is Short Range is because Legion tells us.  So why lie about when the Reaper alliance happened but tell the truth that you allied with them willingly?  He might as well  have lied and said the Reapers forced them because there would be no way for anyone to prove they didn't since the majority of the information of how they came to be allied with the Reapers comes from Legion and Legion alone. 

3.  Yes but then this has no relevance to my point.  I said there is no witness accounts of the Geth shooting diplomatic ships down.  All we have is what organics that were not actually present at the time the crime allegedly occur saying the crime happened.  That is heresay and would be inadmissable as evidence.  Every time this story is told, we never get the names of the any ships or people that died.  It is a vague story in which our only evidence it happened is because people who never witnessed it say it happened.

And you are confused, I am not saying every other organic was lying.  I am saying if we are going to say we can't trust Legion's story because he has lied before and there is no other evidence to support what he said then why should we believe the story of diplomatic ships being shot down when organics have lied and there is no evidence to support the story.  

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Ardat-Yakshi are not a galactic threat like Heretics are they?

Each Ardat-Yakshi can potentially live for over a thousand years with a genetic "curse" conditioning them to enjoy killing. One Ardat-Yakshi could become the worst serial killer of any species given enough time and not enough selectivity for their prey. Morinth was almost the equal to her mother despite being 400 years younger and selective in who she kills and she still was able to turn a small colony into mindless worthshippers.

I'd say that's got the potential for a small galatic threat.

Omg LOL. Did you just compare some serial killer to a synthetic armada that almost unleashed the Reapers on the galaxy?

Can you tell me how else Quarians could get their world back in a hurry. Since the Reapers are here, they need Rannoch ASAP before their fleet go to war with Reapers?

This makes no tactical sense. If you're at war with a species that can destroy planets and you don't have a home-world of your own, the last thing you do is decide to go looking for one and plant all your civlians there. No, the tactical decision is to split the civilian fleet into smaller groups and send them to different areas of space with no group having any idea where the rest are. That way if any are captured or killed the information and safety of the rest of the fleet remains.

If the Quarians loose one of those live ships, they are screwed. So they need a planet to put their civiliance on when they commit their fleet to the Reapers. You know that as well as I do. And you didn't answer the Question. How can the Quarians reclaim their world from the Geth peacefully without talking to the Geth(because they won't allow Quarians to do so. You accepted that).

1 - It's not logical to beleve that a group attacking you out of the blue is going to accept peace. It's an emotional reaction to ask/plead for peace but not a logical one to believe it'll be accepted. If the Quarians wanted peace in the first place they wouldn't have attacked.

2 - Because they want to live. It's the same basic instinct as what was driving Saran (if you believe his words in ME1). You're hoping that any life is better than certain death.

3 - It's not actually said that the Geth minds are gone or just how the Reaper code affecst the Geth.

4 - The Geth don't have a "noble" ideal. There is logical thought pattern that will allow for your entire species to die to save another. That's an emotional decision by individuals for individuals. If you asked the Drell, the general attitude would be to fight and die for the Hanar but there'd be some who would prefer to still live.

The main problem is that you want this both ways. You want to say that the Quarians attacked the Geth partly because the Geth refused to allow incoming communications BUT say that they would be willing to have peace if it was asked for. If the Quarians wanted peace they could have not gone to war.

The Admiralty knew Tali knew Legion and would know she knew how to get in touch with him. They didn't do this because they wanted war.

1. And trusting the Reapers make logical sense?
If the Geth contacted Quarians and offered Rannoch in exchange for a cease fire, they would have accepted sinse two of the five admirals already want peace. Geth don't know that because they didn't even try.

2. Geth know that Reapers want everyone dead. And yet they deem it is better to trust the Reapers than even talking to Quarians? What the hell is the Geth thinking?

3. Yeah, so it's a totally awesome being Reaper slaves even if they had their minds...

4. I doubt anyone would think living like husks is better than death. But Geth seems to think it's a good idea.

Quarians went to war because they wanted their planet fast and they don't have a good way of contacting Geth. I don't think Quarians like war either. I know Quarians are partly to blame for this. But the Geth were the once who had to start by cesing to block communications. And Legion doesn't seem to get along with rest of the Geth for some reason. I doubt Legion was in a position to start peace talks.

Modifié par S.A.K, 08 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Omg LOL. Did you just compare some serial killer to a synthetic armada that almost unleashed the Reapers on the galaxy?

One batch of terriorst does not a species make.

If the Quarians loose one of those live ships, they are screwed. So they need a planet to put their civiliance on when they commit their fleet to the Reapers. You know that as well as I do. And you didn't answer the Question. How can the Quarians reclaim their world from the Geth peacefully without talking to the Geth(because they won't allow Quarians to do so. You accepted that).

And I gave you a tactical and logical plan that the Quarians could have used in order to retake their planet if they really wanted to be smart about it. Instead they decided to do an all-or-nothing charge without any back-up plan. It's a suicide charge by the Quarians hoping that enough will survive the war to keep repopulate the world.

1. And trusting the Reapers make logical sense?
If the Geth contacted Quarians and offered Rannoch in exchange for a cease fire, they would have accepted sinse two of the five admirals already want peace. Geth don't know that because they didn't even try.

At no point in the history of the Morning War (which technically lasted the entire 300 years) did the Quarians give the Geth the idea that peace might be an option. The Quarians created the Geth, found them more sentient than planned, tried to kill them and got decimated as a result.

You keep avoiding the question. Where in the history between the two species have the Quarians turned around and said "We made a mistake Geth, we're sorry and we want peace."?

2. Geth know that Reapers want everyone dead. And yet they deem it is better to trust the Reapers than even talking to Quarians? What the hell is the Geth thinking?

There's no trust involved. It is a matter of pure survival.

Geth Consensus - We don't think we can win against the Quarians.
GC - The Reapers have offered a treaty. They will help us against the Quarians and we're their slaves.
Options - Death or slavery.
GC - Choice. We want to live.

I don't know how much more simpler you want this explained.

Quarians went to war because they wanted their planet fast and they don't have a good way of contacting Geth. I don't think Quarians like war either. I know Quarians are partly to blame for this. But the Geth were the once who had to start by ceasing to block communications. And Legion doesn't seem to get along with rest of the Geth for some reason. I doubt Legion was in a position to start peace talks.

Firstly, Legion was only one Geth and it was explained in ME2 that each one can have their own opinion to situations.

You want a species to be open to communication with organics when the main interaction the Geth have had with an organic species ended up in a bloody war? Why?

Legion tells us that the Geth want to be left alone. If a species wants to be left alone it doesn't get in touch with every sentient race out there and say "hey guys, look we'd much rather be left alone but we're leaving this comm channel open just in case, okay?"

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Omg LOL. Did you just compare some serial killer to a synthetic armada that almost unleashed the Reapers on the galaxy?

One batch of terriorst does not a species make.

What was that?

If the Quarians loose one of those live ships, they are screwed. So they need a planet to put their civiliance on when they commit their fleet to the Reapers. You know that as well as I do. And you didn't answer the Question. How can the Quarians reclaim their world from the Geth peacefully without talking to the Geth(because they won't allow Quarians to do so. You accepted that).

And I gave you a tactical and logical plan that the Quarians could have used in order to retake their planet if they really wanted to be smart about it. Instead they decided to do an all-or-nothing charge without any back-up plan. It's a suicide charge by the Quarians hoping that enough will survive the war to keep repopulate the world.

It wasn't a suicide plan. If the Reapers didn't get involved, Quarians would have won easily. Your plan was split the fleet right? Let's say they did that. One live ship gets hit and BAM! They lost 1/3 of their population. That's a really stupid plan. Now if they had a planet, they could put the largest fleet in the galaxy to protect it if they needed and they can use the fleet against the Reapers with limited loss of life. They can even do something like you suggested because they wouldn't starve to death if they loose a live ship.

I asked you for a peaceful way Quarians could have take Rannoch. Please answer that question.

1. At no point in the history of the Morning War (which technically
lasted the entire 300 years) did the Quarians give the Geth the idea
that peace might be an option. The Quarians created the Geth, found them
more sentient than planned, tried to kill them and got decimated as a
result.

You keep avoiding the question. Where in the history between the two
species have the Quarians turned around and said "We made a mistake
Geth, we're sorry and we want peace."?

2. There's no trust involved. It is a matter of pure survival.

Geth Consensus - We don't think we can win against the Quarians.
GC - The Reapers have offered a treaty. They will help us against the Quarians and we're their slaves.
Options - Death or slavery.
GC - Choice. We want to live.

3. Firstly, Legion was only one Geth and it was explained in ME2 that each one can have their own opinion to situations.

You want a species to be open to communication with organics when the main interaction the Geth have had with an organic species ended up in a bloody war? Why?

Legion tells us that the Geth want to be left alone. If a species wants to be left alone it doesn't get in touch with every sentient race out there and say "hey guys, look we'd much rather be left alone but we're leaving this comm channel open just in case, okay?"

1. Quarians had no reason to ask for forgiveness. Geth killed billions of Quarians.

There is no indication either side tried for peace in that 300 years. Quarians may have tried to negotiate so they could return home, but the Geth did not want to talk.

2. Or it may have been like this.
Geth Consensus - We don't think we can win against the Quarians.
GC - The Reapers have offered a treaty. They will help us against the Quarians and we're their slaves.
Legion - We may try talking with Quarians. 2 out of 5 Quarian admirals already consider peace.
GC - Apprehend Legion for blasphemy. Slavery sound cool.
Options - Death, slavery or try for peace.
GC - Slavery it is.

3. If they wanted to be left alone, they should have done it away from the Quarian home world. They can't expect the Quarians to stay exiled forever.

Let's say two people live in a place with equal rights to the place. 1st person kicks the 2nd one out. 1st one can't stay there wanting to be left alone and expect the 2nd one to do nothing about it.

[DeinonSlayer]

@SAK
1) Also bear in mind that the Quarians today are generations removed from those who instigated the Morning War - they've spent their whole lives paying for something that happened before any of them were born - but the Geth who both experienced and committed genocide are alive and well.

2) Legion stopped talking before the Quarians invaded. If it was because he was locked up in the Reaper device on that dreadnought, it would mean the Geth were already working with them - or at the very least considering it. The hardware would have to be in place before the software could be applied. The question then becomes when the Geth acted on it. It wasn't until seventeen days into the invasion that the code upgrades went out. Did the Geth wait that long to ask for the upgrades, essentially shelving the Reapers' offer until their backs were against the wall? Or did they ask, and the Reaper withheld the code from them until the Quarians could be effectively corralled in the Tikkun system?

3) Particularly when the Quarians are physiologically dependent on their native plant life. Even if the Quarians had found a different world to settle on, it would take six hundred years to acclimate, with the entire species needing experimental genetic therapy (which is A: illegal under Council law, and B: not going to be bankrolled by anybody) in order to eliminate their symbiotic dependency on said plants.

That's how it was established in ME2 and the ME3 codex, anyway. I maintain that the Geth being able to fix their immune systems with "rewritten suit functions" is the biggest writer handwave on this side of Synthesis.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
What was that?

You keep using the Heretics as a way of justifying the death of the rest of the Geth. You say that the Geth should have destroyed the Heretics for the sake of the galaxy. The Heretics are an extremely religious right-wing faction of the Geth, a Geth Cerberus cult if you will. By using your own logic humanity should automatically kill any human that expresses an agreement with the Cerberus ideal.

Legion - The Geth believe that all sentient life should have the choice to go their own way.

See, this is the thing about extremists. In a democratic society extremist have a place, they have a chance to express their views. The very fact that the Geth allowed the Heretics to go their own way shows the social mentality of the Geth.

- They don't hate organics.
- They believe all societies and species should have the chance to go their own way.
- They want to be left alone and do not want to be involved in nor engaged in any external issues that organic species may have.

The only thing that is in question is the reasoning of the last one. Is that solely because they want to be alone, because they don't trust in organic life not trying to kill them or a combination of the two? Whatever the reasoning, allowing the Heretics to live just because they disagreed with the general consensus or that they had extremist beliefs is not a reason for the Geth to be destroyed.

It wasn't a suicide plan. If the Reapers didn't get involved, Quarians would have won easily. Your plan was split the fleet right? Let's say they did that. One live ship gets hit and BAM! They lost 1/3 of their population. That's a really stupid plan. Now if they had a planet, they could put the largest fleet in the galaxy to protect it if they needed and they can use the fleet against the Reapers with limited loss of life. They can even do something like you suggested because they wouldn't starve to death if they loose a live ship.

I asked you for a peaceful way Quarians could have take Rannoch. Please answer that question.

How is loading up every single ship in the flotilla - including the live ships - not a suicide plan? If the Quarians don't have the military might to attack the Geth then you don't throw in children and the elderly as part of the attacking force.

A town that defends itself arms its civilians. A country attacking another country sends in the military NOT the civilians. You want a peaceful plan? Send an unmanned probe into Geth space/to Rannoch asking the Geth for clarity in their position on organics/Quarians and stating that peace is preferred. Using extreme caution the Quarians then (if such an offer is acceptable to the Geth) set up a series of very delicate meetings in no-man's land space/neutral territory in order to actually discuss such an option.

However this plan would never go ahead because the emotional reaction to the Geth that is bred into the Quarian people is all about hatred for the Morning War.

And for the record - I'll admit this is also a technicality - Rannoch is also the Geth's homeworld. That's where the species was born so they have as much right to the planet as the Quarians do.

1. Quarians had no reason to ask for forgiveness. Geth killed billions of Quarians.

There is no indication either side tried for peace in that 300 years. Quarians may have tried to negotiate so they could return home, but the Geth did not want to talk.

No, the Geth wanted no interactions from outside species. You have no proof that the Quarians may have wanted peace nor proof that the Geth wouldn't have been open to it.

I have circumstantial evidence that shows the Quarians taught their children about the "evil Geth" (Tali's very emotional hatred in ME1 and the chaos of her trial in ME2) and Legion saying specifically that the Geth needed proof that the Quarians wanted peace before they would consider it. Once again, I quote:

"When the creators believed they could defeat us they have attacked 100% of the time."

2. Or it may have been like this.
Geth Consensus - We don't think we can win against the Quarians.
GC - The Reapers have offered a treaty. They will help us against the Quarians and we're their slaves.
Legion - We may try talking with Quarians. 2 out of 5 Quarian admirals already consider peace.
GC - Apprehend Legion for blasphemy. Slavery sound cool.
Options - Death, slavery or try for peace.
GC - Slavery it is.

Three points.

1 - That's total crap, the Geth Consensus allows all sides of the argument to be heard and they're perfectly willing to change their minds (told to us by Legion in ME2).

2 - Tali wouldn't and didn't give such sensitive data to Legion and in-fact states she didn't tell him about the Admiralty's decision to go to war. That information would have the highest security clearance.

3 - I am getting really tired of shooting down your arguments that the Geth (the species that had been attacked to start the Morning War) needed to be the ones asking for peace when they were attacked AGAIN in ME3.

3. If they wanted to be left alone, they should have done it away from the Quarian home world. They can't expect the Quarians to stay exiled forever.

Let's say two people live in a place with equal rights to the place. 1st person kicks the 2nd one out. 1st one can't stay there wanting to be left alone and expect the 2nd one to do nothing about it.

Like I said above, it's the Geth's homeworld as well.

The only equivalent to fit your example is a parent that beats their child and the child fighting back and almost crippling the parent. The parent is forced to leave the house because the child was stronger and did more damage than they could and almost killed them. The child was born and raised in that house and if the parent decides they want the house back, the child is under no obligations to give it up.

[S.A.K]

@DeinonSlayer, thanks for the help mate. I'll remember those.

Just a few things @Morlath

1. I never said Geth should have destroyed the Heretics for the rest of the galaxy. But the Geth have a responsibility to do something about them because Heretics are Geth too. Orthodox Geth just didn't cared about Heretics because they were only killing organics. Then they wanted Shepards(Organic) help to deal with them because Heretics were about to brainwash Orthodox Geth. That's pathatic.

2. From the MW it's pretty obvious Geth don't care about civiliance. So it's better to have all ships armed. They were keeping the civilian ships off the front line regardless.
Your peace plan is to send a drone to Geth space. Geth have killed every ship that went into their systems even when they were filled with people. So why wouldn't the Geth destroy a drone?

3. Quarians or any other organic didn't have reason not to believe all Geth are evil specially after the Heretic situation. Since the Geth wouldn't talk or try to change those opinions, they don't have a reason to change those opinions. Did you think Geth had a good side back in ME1? I sure didn't.

No, the Geth wanted no interactions from outside species. You have
no proof that the Quarians may have wanted peace nor proof that the Geth
wouldn't have been open to it.

4. Geth weren't open for peace. They weren't even open for talks.

2. Or it may have been like this.
Geth Consensus - We don't think we can win against the Quarians.
GC - The Reapers have offered a treaty. They will help us against the Quarians and we're their slaves.
Legion - We may try talking with Quarians. 2 out of 5 Quarian admirals already consider peace.
GC - Apprehend Legion for blasphemy. Slavery sound cool.
Options - Death, slavery or try for peace.
GC - Slavery it is.

Three points.

1 - That's total crap, the Geth
Consensus allows all sides of the argument to be heard and they're
perfectly willing to change their minds (told to us by Legion in ME2).

2
- Tali wouldn't and didn't give such sensitive data to Legion and
in-fact states she didn't tell him about the Admiralty's decision to go
to war. That information would have the highest security clearance.

3
- I am getting really tired of shooting down your arguments that the
Geth (the species that had been attacked to start the Morning War)
needed to be the ones asking for peace when they were attacked AGAIN in
ME3.

1. Then why didn't they ever talk? Legion knew about Koris and Tali.

2. The fact that Quarians held a vote is evidance they consider peace.

3. And I am getting tired of telling "Quarians couldn't talk to Geth because the Geth wouldn't let them." I don't say Geth should ask for peace. I am saying Geth should let organics contact them so ORGANICS could ask for peace. How the f*ck is that so hard for you to understand?!

Really though, I typed that dialogue half joking. But that might be just what happened. Legion is in hardware shackles when we find it. The synthetic equivalent of handcuffs.

If they wanted to be left alone, they should have done it
away from the Quarian home world. They can't expect the Quarians to stay
exiled forever.

Let's say two people live in a place with equal
rights to the place. 1st person kicks the 2nd one out. 1st one can't
stay there wanting to be left alone and expect the 2nd one to do nothing
about it.

Like I said above, it's the Geth's homeworld as well.

The only
equivalent to fit your example is a parent that beats their child and
the child fighting back and almost crippling the parent. The parent is
forced to leave the house because the child was stronger and did more
damage than they could and almost killed them. The child was born and
raised in that house and if the parent decides they want the house back,
the child is under no obligations to give it up.

I know it's Geth home world as well. That's why I used "two people live in a place with equal
rights to the place" as an example. Pay some attention will you!

Seriously though, that's a sh!tty child. What kind of kid does that to their parents for beating them? That's not you right?
Anyway, Rannoch was Quarian home world for millions of years. The Geth can't kick them out and expect them to stay out and claim "we wanted to be left alone". The Geth paid for that when Quarians wasted the Dyson Sphere with millions of Geth inside it.

But Geth fully only pay for everything they did when the player picks Destroy ending...

Sorry that last line was a joke (or was it?)

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

@shodiswe
Ok you seems to be right about this one. But a few things doesn't make sense then.
1. Why did Geth accept Reapers slavery when they were in contact with the Quarian admirals. Quarians clearly had the upper hand at the point, so why didn't the Geth just try to come to a truce? It's a far better choice for the Geth than being Reaper slaves.
2. Why does Tali talk about "I could have warned it about the attack"? If it was after the attack, Geth already know about it.

That tech wasn't tiny. It could fit Legion inside it. And that technique can only manufacture things out of plastic and light metals ceranic. So that idea is just plain wrong. They had to build it the old fassioned way.
"Omni-gel is composed of common, reusable industrial plastics, ceramics, and light alloys kept in a semi-molten state"

And you have to admit, Quarians couldn't ask for peace from the Geth because the Geth didn't let themselves be contacted.

@remydat
2. I don't see how a small(160m) Reaper could come close enough to a Geth Dreadnought to control it or why the rest of the Geth wouldn't do anything about it.

3. In ME1 you come accross a ship the went into Geth space and the Geth turned everyone inside it to husks and sent it back to Citadel space as a warning. In ME2 you come accross a ship that the Geth are about to crash into some colony. Geth are executing the crew when Shepard enters. Are you telling me you didn't do either 9those missions?

Legion IS a Geth. When someone is suspected with murder and claim innocence, do you just take his/her word for it?

1. The Quarians made it clear they didn't wat to talk, all they wanted was to destroy all Geth once and for all.
Any kind of surrender attempt or show of weakness would just have pleased Gerrel even more, "ah, they are lining up for execution, excellent. It's all I ever dreamt for and more!"
No, there was nothing the Geth could do, the Quarians had already voted on it. 

2. First Tali talks about her early pre-quarian attack talks to Legion where she discusses the posibility of discussing some kind of peaceful settlement. 
The Admirals votes down the proposal to initiate peacetalks through the diplomatic channel that had been establised between Tali and Legion.
Tali feelt bad about not telling Legion the Quarians don't want peace but that they are instead preparing to attack the geth.
By doing so she would have betrayed her own people.
The Quarians attack.

Shepard the a head in the story telling and asks, "After the attack" What was the last you heard from Legion?
This is where she skips to the end of her story and tells Shepard about her last communication with Legion (which was some unspecified time after the Quarian attack)
After that last communication Legion is stopef from communicating with the outside universe.
It's either when hes dragged to thar room where he is shackled, or Legion gets imprisoned and silenced elsewhere.
Either it was the reapers agents or the other Geth arrested him for treason an conspiring with the enemy, and or bringing false peace offer to catch them off guard.
I'm personaly guessing that Legion was free until they draged him away and the signal went online. Mostly because someone would have filled us in if there was more of a story to those events.
We're told they talk at least oncemore after the attack... It's more likely they keept talking until the Quarians attacked the Geth bubble and Legion was dragged away to comply with the Reapers demands for providing support.

Shepards conversation with Tali regarding Legion spans over a vast timeline. From where Shepard turns himself in to the alliance until after the Quarians attack the Geth several months later.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 mai 2013 - 08:24 .

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@SAK
1) Also bear in mind that the Quarians today are generations removed from those who instigated the Morning War - they've spent their whole lives paying for something that happened before any of them were born - but the Geth who both experienced and committed genocide are alive and well.

2) Legion stopped talking before the Quarians invaded. If it was because he was locked up in the Reaper device on that dreadnought, it would mean the Geth were already working with them - or at the very least considering it. The hardware would have to be in place before the software could be applied. The question then becomes when the Geth acted on it. It wasn't until seventeen days into the invasion that the code upgrades went out. Did the Geth wait that long to ask for the upgrades, essentially shelving the Reapers' offer until their backs were against the wall? Or did they ask, and the Reaper withheld the code from them until the Quarians could be effectively corralled in the Tikkun system?

3) Particularly when the Quarians are physiologically dependent on their native plant life. Even if the Quarians had found a different world to settle on, it would take six hundred years to acclimate, with the entire species needing experimental genetic therapy (which is A: illegal under Council law, and B: not going to be bankrolled by anybody) in order to eliminate their symbiotic dependency on said plants.

That's how it was established in ME2 and the ME3 codex, anyway. I maintain that the Geth being able to fix their immune systems with "rewritten suit functions" is the biggest writer handwave on this side of Synthesis.

1. Irrelevant to the current conflict.

2. Wrong, as pointed out above, Shepard asks about their communications after the attack and Tali tells us about it. Like I pointed out.

3. Genetic therapy in general isn't illegal, adding something that didnt exist like an extra set of arms is... It's still irrelevant imo. They could have explored other options, they are the ones who were in the wrong from the beginning by trying to genocide another race. They however don't want to make it right. They just want to finnish what they startex 300 years earlier.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 mai 2013 - 08:19 .

[shodiswe]

One thing is clear though, bioware needs to improve the way they explain events thst take place over an extended timeline so that their audience csn follow and understand the story.
I can understand how it's easyto fail to realize that the story isn't easy enough to follow when you got it all worked out in your mind.

[remydat]

As this video proves from 9:30 on, Tali and Koris was outvoted 3-2 with respect to negotiating for peace. The Quarians did not want peace before the war even started so pretending that they would accept peace when they are winning and could eliminate the Geth for good is laughable. These guys basically voted that instead of having a conversation, they would strap guns to their kids homes and go to war.

Further, the dialogue wheel at 9:47 says AND SINCE THE ATTACK.  This means everything that came before ie the no negotiation vote by the Quarians was before the attack.  You then pick this option and Shep asks Tali where Legion is now. It is then that Tali said Legion told her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus. She did not specify what Legion was referring to so I think people thought she meant reaching consensus about negotiation ie pre-war.  However, the dialogue wheel made it clear this was a conversation about since the attack so Legion was referring to reaching consensus about the Reaper Alliance and likely simply did not tell Tali what it was they Geth were having trouble reaching consensus on just that they could not reach it.  Hence why Tali speculates maybe he was too busy fighting the Reaper takeover or that maybe he did not want to give intell (ie tell her what they were having trouble with) to an enemy.  Both of these guesses by Tali prove that this was after the war since from her perspective the Reaper Alliance occurred after the war started and it is doubtful Tali would think Legion would consider her an enemy pre-war when they were talking and sharing information leading up to the war and were squadmates and friends.

Furthermore, we know the one thing in the game around this time the Geth would likely have trouble reaching consensus on was the Reaper Alliance.  Then the megastructure was attacked, they got dumber, finally reached consensus and Legion was installed as the signal booster which means he can no longer communicate with Tali.
 
Finally, Tali then goes on to say that she could have warned Legion but did not. This makes it perfectly clear, she still had a means to reach Legion after War was decided. 

Modifié par remydat, 09 mai 2013 - 02:48 .

[shodiswe]

This conversation with Tali in the warroom is one of those conversations that needed better structuring given it's broken cronology, it's a littlebit like pulpfiction.
It needed better conversational cues though so people have an easier time following it without watching it several times.
I'm not sure if they wated oeopleto analyse it or speculate or if it just seemed a lot more clear in the writers head who had a more complete picture of where he was going with the story and storytelling.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
1. I never said Geth should have destroyed the Heretics for the rest of the galaxy. But the Geth have a responsibility to do something about them because Heretics are Geth too. Orthodox Geth just didn't cared about Heretics because they were only killing organics. Then they wanted Shepards(Organic) help to deal with them because Heretics were about to brainwash Orthodox Geth. That's pathatic.

The Geth are isolationists. Aside from hindsight, give me one reason why they would want to be friends with organics. Show me something in-game that would mean they would consider it that doesn't require hindsight.

How could the Geth stop the Heretics without attacking/destroying them?

And you've got it wrong. Legion was sent out to take care of the Heretics already and Shepard looks to help him. He isn't sent out to search for Shepard to ask for help which is what you're implying.

2. From the MW it's pretty obvious Geth don't care about civiliance. So it's better to have all ships armed. They were keeping the civilian ships off the front line regardless.
Your peace plan is to send a drone to Geth space. Geth have killed every ship that went into their systems even when they were filled with people. So why wouldn't the Geth destroy a drone?

How about the drone sending out an automatic signal?

And your argument is circular. They wouldn't need to be armed for a war with the Geth if they were left behind, that's the long and the short of it.

It's the choice by the military to use them as weapons which means they need to be armed.

3. Quarians or any other organic didn't have reason not to believe all Geth are evil specially after the Heretic situation. Since the Geth wouldn't talk or try to change those opinions, they don't have a reason to change those opinions. Did you think Geth had a good side back in ME1? I sure didn't.

You're right. Organics have no reason to trust the Geth and it's obvious that the Geth don't see the interest in being upstanding members of council space.

Is that enough to condem them?

4. Geth weren't open for peace. They weren't even open for talks.

The Geth didn't chase the Quarians at the end of the Morning War. The Geth didn't hunt the Quarians through space and the Geth didn't come out of the Veil to take over the galaxy.

In fact the only time the Geth is seen outside of the Veil is 300 years later when they believe an organic-synthetic Reaper is their God and so follows this god into war.

While the Geth may have not been offering peace treaties everywhere it's pretty obvious by ME lore that they weren't a species looking for war.

1. Then why didn't they ever talk? Legion knew about Koris and Tali.

And Tali mentions in ME3 that she spoke to him post ME2.

2. The fact that Quarians held a vote is evidance they consider peace.

Which the Geth do not know.

Just because peace was discussed and dismissed by the Quarians doesn't mean that the Geth know this or can act on it.

3. And I am getting tired of telling "Quarians couldn't talk to Geth because the Geth wouldn't let them." I don't say Geth should ask for peace. I am saying Geth should let organics contact them so ORGANICS could ask for peace. How the f*ck is that so hard for you to understand?!

Really though, I typed that dialogue half joking. But that might be just what happened. Legion is in hardware shackles when we find it. The synthetic equivalent of handcuffs.

The Geth made it difficult but not impossible for the Quarians (or any organics) to contact them.

- There is a cease-fire with the Geth
- The Geth (outside of the Heretics) only attack if someone enters their territory.
- The Geth are not actively seeking out the Quarians to continue the war.

These are in-game facts. While it's not actual peace there's no outstanding reason for peace talks to be important and no sign that there were many Geth working with the Reapers until the Quarians attacked.

Look, it comes down to this. The Geth may have made it difficult for organics to contact them but the Quarians are the ones to re-start the Morning War and to do so with not just the military at risk. The Quarians strike first and break the cease-fire.

[tanisha__unknown]

they didn't ally so much as alloy:devil: