345 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

Indy_S wrote...

The implication that a Reaper snuck past the quarian fleet is a little far-fetched. Not impossible, but I imagine having someone monitoring the only way into or out of the system would be a smart plan. My first assumption would be: it was an oversight from the writers.

Not just that. The Reaper would have to sneak pass the Geth as well and hide in their own base if they were not allied by then. If not The Reaper must have arrived exactly when the Quarian were attacking and prove Geth with the tech to hook up Legion and hid in the base within a very small time. Infact this needs to have happened so quickly that the Geth were able to save a part of the mega structure. It's the only way for what Legion said to be true. Doesn't make much sense.

[Phatose]

All it's a reference to is their number.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Phatose wrote...

You still haven't provided any actual evidence that alliance would've taken several days.  Your just tossing out supposition without evidence.

Show the evidence that what you claim would take several days would.

There is no solid evidence to show you. That's why this is a discussion. But there is circumstantial evidence to suggest Geth couldn't have allied with the Reapers and done all that within the time suggested by Legion. I am just saying contacting and Getting a Reaper to Rannoch, setting up that Geth ship, connecting Legion to it, hiding the Reaper in that base and transmitting the signal couldn't have been done within the short time it took for the Quarians to destroy the megastructure (it was just a bunch of light weight satalites).

The Reapers made Contact and made the offer. The Geth didn't need to establish Contact.
The Reapers are trying to influence the whole galaxy.
At oen Point the Reapers transmitted vids of horrifying Turian losses to lower Turian fighting morale. The Reapers are working every angle to soften their prey.
If they had to provide the Quarians with Geth killing Tools to weaken that part of the galaxy then that's what they would do. An anti-geth flashbomb that was worthless against the Reapersthemselves seems like a good toy to share. It would have been pure genius for them to do somethign like that.
How long has the Quarians been allied with the Reapers? When did Rael Zorah becoem indoctrinated like TIM and start his own illegal Cerberus like reserach to fuel the fires of war?

[S.A.K]

@shodiswe, are you saying Geth couldn't have allied with Reapers before the Quarians attacked?

[shodiswe]

I guess you could say that or they would have had the upgrades an the Quarian systematic cleansing wouldn't have been able to progress for 17 days.
The Quarian attack probably made the Geth tolerate the non-hostile Reaper that was offering an alliance while they were trying to find their own counter to the new Quarian superweapon.
The Reapers offer might have been seen as a possible plan B and as long as it wasn't fiering it's guns at them it was at the time less of a threat than the Quarian fleet traveling from system to system ans systematicaly genociding their people.
Who would want a second war when youre already getting wiped out by another force? Marbe the Quarians, but few others I would think.

[M74]

When did the Geth *really* ally with the Reapers?

That question is explained in ME3.
Didn't you pay any attention?

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

I guess you could say that or they would have had the upgrades an the Quarian systematic cleansing wouldn't have been able to progress for 17 days.
The Quarian attack probably made the Geth tolerate the non-hostile Reaper that was offering an alliance while they were trying to find their own counter to the new Quarian superweapon.
The Reapers offer might have been seen as a possible plan B and as long as it wasn't fiering it's guns at them it was at the time less of a threat than the Quarian fleet traveling from system to system ans systematicaly genociding their people.
Who would want a second war when youre already getting wiped out by another force? Marbe the Quarians, but few others I would think.

So your plan B means Geth had some kind of truse with the Reapers before the Quarians attacked the Dyson sphere. Which also means they had 17 days to prepare for the war but they decided to go under Reaper control. That doesn't make the Geth look good. If the Geth knew they were in trouble because of that weapon, the Geth could have contacted the Quarians and made a truse instead. Not with the Reapers.

@M74
Read the rest of the post, not just the topic. This is discussing a questionable part of that explanation you mentioned. And there is no reason to believe Legions explanation without analyzing.

[shodiswe]

The reapers sent a contact "person" that lovely little destroyer to make a deal with the Geth who were being attacked by the Quarians.
The reaper most likely wasn't fiering at the Geth while waiting for them to make a decision. The Quarians were already doing the work for it, all it had to do was wait for the Geth to get desperate enough to prefer enslavement over going extinct at the hands of the Quarians.
As Im sure you are well aware the Quarian Admiralty had already voted against opening up diplomaticlines with the geth. I'm pretty sure Tali told Legion about that. Therefor it's reasonable to assume the rest of the geth knows that peace with the Quarians is impossible since they don't want peace.
Also from a Geth perspective it might have sermed like a good idea to wait with a no to the reapers since that meant they didn't have to worry about the reapers attacking them aswell.
Also the Reapers hadn't attcked either the Geth or the Quarians yet, so there wasn't technicaly a war yet which makes the idea of truce invalid.

Modifié par shodiswe, 05 mai 2013 - 10:33 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

The reapers sent a contact "person" that lovely little destroyer to make a deal with the Geth who were being attacked by the Quarians.
The reaper most likely wasn't fiering at the Geth while waiting for them to make a decision. The Quarians were already doing the work for it, all it had to do was wait for the Geth to get desperate enough to prefer enslavement over going extinct at the hands of the Quarians.
As Im sure you are well aware the Quarian Admiralty had already voted against opening up diplomaticlines with the geth. I'm pretty sure Tali told Legion about that. Therefor it's reasonable to assume the rest of the geth knows that peace with the Quarians is impossible since they don't want peace.
Also from a Geth perspective it might have sermed like a good idea to wait with a no to the reapers since that meant they didn't have to worry about the reapers attacking them aswell.
Also the Reapers hadn't attcked either the Geth or the Quarians yet, so there wasn't technicaly a war yet which makes the idea of truce invalid.

The Geth know as well as anyone what Reapers were planning to do. Why the hell would the Geth trust them? That's silly. Diplomacy failed bacause Geth weren't willing to communicate. Tali says she exchanged few communication with Legion but Legion cut the communicating after that. So Quarians didn't have a way to contact them.
Geth know how Reapers are better than anyone specially since the deal with the Heretics. You are saying Geth are willing to trust the Reapers, but are afraid to use a radio to talk with Quarians. Geth logic doesn't make sense.

[shodiswe]

The Admiralty had already said no to peace talks before contact was lost.
The part where she telks you about the councils aversion to peace is diconected from loosing contact with Legion.
The part about loosing contact with Legion commes after Shepard asks what was the last thing she heard from Legion.
It's possible that loss of contact happend when Legion was taken away and shackled by his own people.
Maybe the other Geth were concerned that Legion was talking to a Quarian or maybe that happend on day 16 or something when the Geth decided to accept the Reapers offer.
Bioware should have descibed these events better or added a codex entry for those seeking more info and detail.
To me the point of where Legion broke communications was just before they decided to accept the reapers offer when all hope was alredy gone.

[S.A.K]

@shodiswe
Actually Legion cut communications before the Quarians started the attack. Legion told her Geth are having trouble reaching consensus. So maybe they were considering a Reaper allience. I just replayed that part in-game.

[shodiswe]

The problem is she doesn't say that. The time is unspecific.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

The problem is she doesn't say that. The time is unspecific.

She says, She could have warned about the attack which means it's must be before they start the attack. Otherwise there is nothing to warn about.

[shodiswe]

She said she could have warned it about the attack but she didn't.

Not because Legion had cut contact but because of her loyalty to her people, she didn't.

Then Shepard asked Tali: What was the last you Heard from Legion?

Which immediately jumps the conversation to the last time they talked. The Timeline is broken and no (defined) time references are given. Which makes it hard to speculate.



Broken timelines makes it hard to speculate.


/////
What troubled Tali was that she was discussing Peace possibilities with Legion while the Quarians were in the middle of their war preparations. She was betraying/backstabbing a friend by pretending there is nothing going on and talkign about peace and holding back, but at the same time telling Legion would have meant that she would instead betray her own People.

I hope that makes sense. She's not a bad person, she's just someone trapped between a rock and a hard Place.

Modifié par shodiswe, 05 mai 2013 - 12:35 .

[shodiswe]

And Shepard asked about their last communication's after the attack, which is in conversation Wheel, there Legion told Tali the Geth were having problems reachign a concensus.

But ina way, Legion could probably have told Tali that the Reapers were prepared to back the Geth and offering a deal which would result in the death of the Quarians and enslavement of the Geth, but Legion was holding back, just as Tali was holding back the truth about the impending Quarian attack in their earlier conversations.

They are both keepign Secrets to avoid betrayign their people... Maybe warning the Quarians that they are pushing the Geth into the arms of the Reapers coudl have been agood thing, but I doubt the Quarian Admirals would have cared about that, they would likely have said, lets work faster then before they get help from the outside!

Modifié par shodiswe, 05 mai 2013 - 12:41 .

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

She said she could have warned it about the attack but she didn't.

Not because Legion had cut contact but because of her loyalty to her people, she didn't.

Then Shepard asked Tali: What was the last you Heard from Legion?

Which immediately jumps the conversation to the last time they talked. The Timeline is broken and no (defined) time references are given. Which makes it hard to speculate.



Broken timelines makes it hard to speculate.


/////
What troubled Tali was that she was discussing Peace possibilities with Legion while the Quarians were in the middle of their war preparations. She was betraying/backstabbing a friend by pretending there is nothing going on and talkign about peace and holding back, but at the same time telling Legion would have meant that she would instead betray her own People.

I hope that makes sense. She's not a bad person, she's just someone trapped between a rock and a hard Place.

Yeah I guess that makes sense. I may have misinterpreted the timescale. Sorry about that.
Anyway I still can't understand why the Geth made a truce with the Reapers without even trying to contact the Quarians via radio or something when they attacked. If they gave the Quarians a peaceful way to retake their world, they would have accepted it. Geth didn't even try that.

[shodiswe]

Once the reapers took over it was too late for Tali to talk, the Reaper signal was transmitting, the Geth were puttign the pressure on the Quarians and Tali couldn't Contact Legion because it was shackled in the Geth dreadnaught, unable to respond or act.

[shodiswe]

What Legion could have done different would be to tell Tali to tell the Admirals that the Geth have been offered the technological upgrades to fight the Quarians flashbank and increase their combat capabilites in exchange for becomming thralls of the Reapers.
If the Quarians don't stop and make Peace the Geth will be forced to accept the deal in the interest of survival.

That might have scared the Admiralty, but Idoubt Xen and Gerrel would have been convinced. Also, I to the geth that information was likely as secret as the Quarians attack plans before the attack.

Let's just say Tali and Legion is stuck and struggling between their "friendship" and their loyalty to their people.

In the end I think it works out pretty well if you make Peace. Though according to the game statistics I'm not a majority, most people just killed the quarians.

Also, thanks for recognizing that there is a small time gap there and that the time scale isn't very precise.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

What Legion could have done different would be to tell Tali to tell the Admirals that the Geth have been offered the technological upgrades to fight the Quarians flashbank and increase their combat capabilites in exchange for becomming thralls of the Reapers.
If the Quarians don't stop and make Peace the Geth will be forced to accept the deal in the interest of survival.

That might have scared the Admiralty, but Idoubt Xen and Gerrel would have been convinced. Also, I to the geth that information was likely as secret as the Quarians attack plans before the attack.

Let's just say Tali and Legion is stuck and struggling between their "friendship" and their loyalty to their people.

In the end I think it works out pretty well if you make Peace. Though according to the game statistics I'm not a majority, most people just killed the quarians.

Also, thanks for recognizing that there is a small time gap there and that the time scale isn't very precise.

Yeah, Tali and Legion were both in a hard place. I doubt Legion volunteered to be hooked up to that thing.

About what I said in the OP. It may just be bad writing because the time frame is pretty unrealistic for the Geth to have sided with Reapers. Setting up that dreadnought, hiding the Reaper there and transmitting the signal after hooking up Legion. Or it was very good righting and BW wanted the player to figure it out.

Many people aka casual gamers just meta-game the paragon button in the top right sadly. (what was that 37%?) About 50% of the players got the worst possible ending and them about 80% picked destroy (according to all surveys I seen) killing the Geth. I think those stats are take before the ending of the game cos it doesn't contain ending info. In the end Quarian have 63% survival rate and Geth have about 20% maybe 25%.

Edit : Added a link

Modifié par S.A.K, 05 mai 2013 - 01:21 .

[KingZayd]

I'm guessing a Reaper may have already offered them an alliance that was turned down. Maybe the Reaper then thought it was only a matter of time?

For the record, the Geth forces could be used to build stuff too. I imagine they could get stuff done quickly if necessary.

[Argolas]

Sorry if this was addressed before, I didn't read the whole thread:

When did the Reaper get to Rannoch? The Quarians certainly didn't know there was one there, and their scanners should have noticed it when if it came to Rannoch after the attack started, right? I mean, I never heard of the Reapers having any stealth systems.

[Mastone]

to answer the OP, they were led by fear and were in awe of what the reapers where...don't blame them, they didn't know they were being played by a child

[Ryzaki]

Argolas wrote...

Sorry if this was addressed before, I didn't read the whole thread:

When did the Reaper get to Rannoch? The Quarians certainly didn't know there was one there, and their scanners should have noticed it when if it came to Rannoch after the attack started, right? I mean, I never heard of the Reapers having any stealth systems.

If they had Reaper help from the beginning the Quarians would've been dead long before Shep got there.

[Deathsaurer]

S.A.K wrote...

Anyway I still can't understand why the Geth made a truce with the Reapers without even trying to contact the Quarians via radio or something when they attacked. If they gave the Quarians a peaceful way to retake their world, they would have accepted it. Geth didn't even try that.

Goes back to ME2 if you take Legion on Tali's loyalty mission.

[JaceBelerin]

I'm going to chalk its arrival being unnoticed due to a lack of windows.